Is the reason that gospel workers are tired because they don’t understand what rest is? Derek and Scott discuss three myths of rest:
Myth #1: Doing more work does not make us better workers:
Truth #1: Resting makes us better, more effective workers
Myth #2: I don’t need to rest, that’s what holidays are for
Truth#2: You can’t binge your rest, it needs to be a habit
Myth #3: I get some sleep each night. That’s rest.
Truth #3: Sleep is important but is not rest.
Rest: Why You Get More Done When You Work Less
Alex Soojung-Kim Pang
Sacred Rest: Recover Your Life, Renew Your Energy, Restore Your Sanity by Dr Saundra Dalton-Smith
Atomic Habits by James Clear.
Burnout and Rest by Valarie Ling
List of things to improve your sleep by Matthew Walker
CREDITS:
The One Thing is brought to you by Reach Australia.
For ideas or questions please email [email protected]
To support the Reach Australia Online Library head here.
TRANSCRIPT:
The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
Derek
Lifeway Leadership Podcast Network. Graham Derek Hannah.
Scott
I’m Scott Sanders.
Derek
Welcome to The One Thing, a podcast designed to give you one solid practical tip for gospel centered ministry every week. The one thing that corporate Australia and our vision is to see thousands of healthy, evangelistic and multiplying churches across Australia. We want to see hundreds of thousands of people rich with the Gospel come to know Jesus and have life.
Derek
I mean, in order that though, we need people who are leading ministries and churches to be healthy, spiritually healthy, but physically healthy as well, emotionally healthy, mentally healthy. And so we are going to talk today in the next episode as well about ministry and risk. I don’t think we’re good at this. You might be. Oh, you.
Scott
Speak for yourself. Yeah, well, we will.
Derek
You’ll find out the truth. And Scott’s in it very soon. But the reality is we talk about this. God does caused risk. We are not the saviors of the world. We serve the sacred, say by him, but we are not the creator. We’re part of the creation. And maybe, look, the reason we aren’t good at rest is because we don’t understand.
Derek
Maybe it is a theological problem. Maybe it’s an identity problem. I know.
Scott
Maybe it’s maybe it’s a habits. But there are also some that maybe could be a physical problem, you know, look, and maybe it could be a physical environment problem as well as there’s a block as in I’ve got young kids.
Derek
Yes.
Scott
I keep me awake at night.
Derek
Absolutely.
Scott
So this is a complex topic. Yeah. But I think our reflection before sort of jumping on and thinking about this was that we’re both probably not the the best wrestlers. Yeah. And we’ve had to kind of put things in place to force that habit.
Derek
Yeah, Yeah. It’s interesting. Is it because we are looking any work We are theologically driven. That was how it would be, how we would describe ourselves. The word is preeminent in how we think about the world is the lens by which we see it. And so if you ask people to write a talk on rest, my gut feeling is the people that we know would write incredibly well, thought through three theologically driven talks on rest, that we are part of the creation that God rested, that he calls us to rest.
Derek
We are we do find rest in Him as our creator. That is the ultimate rest. But it’s the application of that, isn’t it? I think we will find it. That’s what we’re going to push into today. And so for now you have press play on another episode of The One Thing How Do I Rest three Myths about Rest and ministry.
Derek
Alrighty, So three myths. Scott.
Scott
Let me just quick follow the three myths that you so myth one and these come out of a of a book by Alex Shu Jung Kim Pang you so myth number one, doing more work does not make us better workers. Myth number two I don’t need to rest. That’s what holidays are for. Myth number three, I get some sleep each night.
Scott
That’s rest. So we’re going to push into into some of these things. But I just like as we’re talking a little bit of open vulnerability reflection, but but this one is point out for me way back when I was at college and Natalie and I were pursuing crosscultural missionary schemes and we were actually told, now you’ve got to wait a year, you know, you need to work on some things.
Scott
And and two of those things that we need to work on were particularly around me. One was one was a lack of structure. So, you know, the need to kind of get, you know, structure in my work life and, you know, and have and have that structure in there. And the other one was rest, you know, the importance of Sabbath.
Scott
And remember heading up to Blue Mountains and having a counseling session with Les Scarboro and him kind of sort of explaining what, you know, taking a Sabbath day, you know, it looks like, you know, and so sort of Friday afternoon at and they’re not not kind of getting back into work until, you know, really until sundown on, you know, on sun up on sort of Sunday, you know, So actually, you know, taking a full hour, you know, .
Derek
hours.
Scott
Well, that was before that. Yes, but but it was but but just an encouragement to actually taking a full, full day. But that full day kind of starts the day before, you know, in the afternoon. And I realize, again, you know, that’s hard for that’s hard for many. And that’s going to change, you know, change in the course of your life and with kids and family and everything else.
Scott
But again, that was a, you know, really helpful know project or process to sort of go through. Yeah.
Derek
Is it let’s we’re going to debunk some of these myths possibly or at least discuss them, We should say as we talk through this, there’s a whole stage in life that you don’t want to be simplistic about this stuff. It’s like gum. It is Covey’s know it, right? The the Seven habits of highly effective people. But he I my gut feeling is Stephen Covey is incredibly disciplined person himself.
Derek
So he writes and is probably he’s had to work really hard and I’m not an incredibly just person that’s me it’s not you that that’s right. And so even when I’m talking to people about that stuff about being organized, you need to work out how to be organized in your own way, in the context you find yourself in in the stage of life.
Derek
And so it’s the same with rest. We do want to think deeply about these, but there will be stages of life where you just forget, Oh, you, you just absolutely done.
Scott
And in some of we would talk about this is shopping this whole. Yep. So myth number one doing more work does not make us better workers. So the truth that we need here that is resting actually makes us better, more effective work workers. So that again, resting actually makes you a better worker and better at working. So Alex so John King Pang wrote a book about how risk can make you a better worker, and he advocates for more balanced work and rest times, not because it’s biblical, because it’s practically better.
Scott
So this is not a this is not a theological book. The idea is, as in some sense, been popularized by Malcolm Gladwell’s book Outlaw Outliers and the the sense that it takes hours of practice to become an expert at something. But pain. Going back and looked at the study and and sense that it was actually more complicated and found that even though ambitious students need an average of sort of , to become world class performers, Derek and I, you know, we can really, you know, we really resonate with that.
Scott
And and and then they do practice more deliberately than their other classmates. They also found that, you know, they needed to sleep an hour per day more than the average student. You know, they need to take naps in the afternoon and they care. They need to be careful about getting enough sleep, you know, And you kind of say, I’ve seen that in I mean, professional athletes.
Scott
Like, I remember watching or listening to a podcast with Nat Fyfe, who’s a Brownlow medalist, Fremantle Dockers player, very interesting. You know, in the years where he was just ridiculous in terms of output on the AFL field. He was actually getting up early in the morning going to training and then while whilst the other guys were having coffees and mucking about, he would go home, sleep, you know, to then get back on the field, you know, in the afternoon he would actually regularly take his time to kind of he remained focused, heading, you know, all the way out of Perth to go and get his back, you know, kind of checked on but but rest
Scott
was like rest was a disciplined key part of his day, you know, to be the best athlete that he could be.
Derek
And so that’s the end of that study is you can read the book and this one got hours to live or practice. Yes. But there’s other things that happened, and a half thousand hours of of deliberate rest on top of the practice and then hours of sleep. Oh, so good long hours of sleep. But so it’s not just you know, you go ahead and start for hours and you become an expert.
Derek
No, it’s that amidst the the cycles of resting and reflecting and all those kind of things, in order to if the myth is being a better way, that’s the goal.
Scott
And, you know, you know that in just the the seven day cycle of ministry, you know to to do the all nighter to get the sermon done, you know you can do that for a number of, you know, a number of weeks. We know it is that urgency. But you can’t do that in an ongoing way, like it makes it harder to turn up on Sunday and be able to relate to people.
Scott
It makes it harder to relate well to your family and to kids. You just you just that unable to.
Derek
Be healthy so you might actually do more. That’s the thing. I suspect people look and think, actually, I do do more. But the question is not so much doing more. It’s being effective in what you do. And so can you actually be an effective worker by just doing hours nonstop? And this study would say, you know, now you are you are a person who is quite driven.
Derek
Scott So tell me, what is it that drives you? Why do you tend towards that?
Scott
Well, I think is that mistaken belief sometimes that if I if I just work harder at it, I’ll get better at in some senses that’s been.
Derek
Will be more effective to achieve more. Yeah.
Scott
Yeah. Be more effective and achieve more. But I think it’s of as I’ve you know that that worked really well for me in the early days of of work life and the early days of ministry but particularly when you know you are getting up to speed and learning things you do, you do need to kind of push yourself in.
Scott
But as time has gone on, you know, I’ve realized actually, you know, doing spending longer on something doesn’t mean it’s necessarily going to be better. You know, it’s kind of like you can I talk often about, you know, I said, right, you know, is good is good enough. And I don’t think I would have said that , years ago.
Scott
I would have been a perfectionist working hard to get it, you know, get it right. And doing the all nighter to get it perfect. But more and more realizing that, you know, % is probably not, you know, good enough.
Derek
I think the thing for me as well is, um, so we’ll move on to the next one just to Adam is might be teased out for me. It is a bed. It’s one the culture I live in and the circles are mixing. There is an unspoken expectation that you do work long hours. And so I buy into that as if that’s a part of my identity.
Derek
So I feel ask you, Are you busy? Hard things? Guy Of course I’m busy. Super busy, super busy. So much I’m applied as if that’s a badge of honor. There’s something incredibly unhelpful about that, but there’s a cycle that I get sucked into. Anyway, let’s move on to the next one.
Scott
So, myth two I don’t need to rest. That’s what holidays are for. Truth to that you need to hear is you can’t binge your rest. It needs to be a habit. So people with burnout will take or take a break. And it’s good to have a circuit breaker. But going back to working hard isn’t going to save you from burnout.
Scott
You can’t binge rest. You know, so often the kind of cure for for burnout is to just take, you know, take three months off. So you’ve really got to have that big circuit breaker that, you know, it really forces you to, you know, just recharge all the batteries. Valerie Long on Burnout discusses this a lot. You know, hanging for holidays is not the rest that we need humanity create those those habits and those cycles of of risk you know so holidays will change a week but you know, in order to change your life and to change, you know, your health, you actually need to change your habits.
Scott
So in some sense, this raises that important issue of habits. You’ve you’ve read James Kelly’s book, Atomic Habits, as that actually changes your habits. You know, like I’ll get to you because I don’t do anything habitually like, I think the only thing I do is clean my teeth. Well, I.
Derek
Have we’re all thankful for that. Oh, yeah.
Scott
Well, I’ll have added recently Listerine in the morning, in the evening, you know, And I think I’m enjoying I’m enjoying that clean taste. I think that’s why I’m getting used to it, because I’m like, Oh, that’s good. But they really have like other than, you know, Yeah, yeah. They really only have better things, I reckon I do on a regular basis.
Derek
Yeah. Look, I’m looking forward to returning to our conversation around Lister in the next episode of Rest as well.
Scott
I suppose it’s.
Derek
Yeah, Look, I, there’s some things that I have. It was, it’s a good book. It’s a hell of a book.
Scott
You become a bit you become a selfconfessed gym junkie in some sense mean you know I’m.
Derek
Not I would not this is a you tell me I should self esteem but but you’ve got.
Scott
You have got to get used to a regular.
Derek
Habit Yeah absolutely.
Scott
And it’s been a whole bunch of things around that I think community has been really important in that I’ve Yeah.
Derek
So and these are the things he talks about how you how you develop you start small, how you get the triggers, how you understand it, how you build on. Yeah absolutely.
Scott
Fresh minty sorry.
Derek
The right. Well if you do work for Listerine and you want to go overdrive, it would allow you sponsorship but yeah the it is those habits of he we’re talking about risk but how is it you get that in a way that actually sustains you over the long term. Now that might be weekly, but it might be term maybe quarterly.
Derek
And that’s the thing. So the last few weeks there have been school holidays in New South Wales and Queensland. A whole bunch of people on staff have been away on our team. I’ve been working but the kids have been on holidays. I didn’t take holidays, but I took it slower and so I did a little. I did things with them during the day.
Derek
I worked after I went to bed and so the rhythms changed and I felt more energized at the end and I knew that was coming and so I could work a little bit more hours beforehand, and I’ve got a lot of hours coming up. So it’s those is those things that I’ve needed to bake into my rhythm of the year because I did previously just go hard at it for nine months, collapsed for a month and then pick it up for two months afterwards.
Derek
And it just was unhealthy. It was terrible. And it was because I was driven so much. I was I feel like I was doing something purposeful, but I thought that’s rest is all the same. If I just do it for a month, does it matter when I take it? But it didn’t work.
Scott
And I’ve I’ve worked hard to build in my week. I slow it down Friday so that I can actually prepare myself for a good, you know, Saturday. I send it off. Now, often that gets impacted by traveling, you know, traveling to church, consults on a Saturday afternoon or, you know, but for the most part, you know, Friday night, you know, Saturday day, it’s it’s it’s about, I guess, resting from my paid work.
Scott
The reality is I still do. I’ll still have to do work around the house. You know, there’s still cleaning and cooking and, you know, chopping and a whole bunch of other stuff that you, you know, putting on the agenda on that on that Saturday. But more often, then I’ll try and get that done. And, you know, at other times during the week so that I can actually have a a good, you know, period of rest on Friday night.
Scott
And for me, it’s putting in, you know, we have a Friday fire, you know, Friday fire and a nice meal. And if kids have got youth group on a Friday night, we we’ve only got three kind of youth group nights at the moment. Then my wife and I will, you know, make that a time where we go out for dinner.
Scott
I go for a long walk, you know, whilst the kids are at, at youth. But for me, you know, making the most of sort of winding down on Friday, so to have a good supply off is, is really helpful for me. Yep. Yep.
Derek
I’m sorry.
Scott
I’m sorry. Send me three. I get some sleep each night. That’s rest. So the truth is sleep is important, but it’s not rest, so sleep is important. Matthew Walker, one of the world’s experts on sleep, will tell you how important it is for your health. And we put in the show notes the important list he’s developed for sleep.
Scott
But sleep is not rest. One of the reasons often that we’re not sleeping may be because we’re actually not resting before we go to sleep. So there’s a whole bunch of habits and behaviors you can put in place, you know, to ensure that you actually, you know, get your hours or hours or hours. I’m talking about kids.
Scott
You guys need more sleep than an older person. Do.
Derek
They do they do by.
Scott
Night, But at least and doctor say an adult. And Smith makes this point you had great intentions but missed one vital piece of the puzzle. Sleep is not rest as different parts of an intricate system. Sleep and rest are designed to work together to ensure every part of you has a way to regenerate and be restored. And in some sense you know that.
Scott
And you feel like, you know, when you’ve had two or three nights of sleep, you know, you’re less able to be effective during the day. You know, you’re shorter with people, you know, at a shop. You know that when you do get it, you know, good two or three nights sleep or you’re resting, you know, resting well and sleeping well, you’re just able to achieve, achieve more.
Derek
Yeah. The Ashes is on at the moment and that is, that is impacting my sleep significantly at the moment. But there is something energizing, like the rhythms that can be quite different in terms of it can be less. My ideal day would be getting up at a.m. because I’m a selfconfessed gym junkie, apparently going to the gym and coming back and sleeping for a couple of hours.
Derek
Now, I might not entirely get as much sleep is stayed in, but actually when I get up and it’s a slower start, I am feeling energized is a rhythm to that and I actually feel like I can be quite effective during the day when I do that. And so yeah, it for me is it’s less about the amount of sleep than the things that go around the sleep in order to make this sleep effective.
Scott
Yeah. Yep. So we’re going to be talking we’ve talked a lot about what rest is not in the next episode we actually are going to spend a bit a fair bit of time talking about what rest is, so just kind of hanging out for the next episode so you can find out actually what what rest is. But you know, it’s important to get good sleep.
Scott
And again, we realize that for certain people in our teams, that’s not going to be a possibility. And for certain times in our life, that’s not going to be able because of kids or because of, you know, physical things that are that impairing us. But it is good to get in a habit of a regular rest as well.
Derek
Okay, Scott, I’m going to ask you, what is the one thing that we have learned about rest today?
Scott
Getting in the habit of good rest patterns is going to make you a more effective gospel worker. So. So, Derek.
Derek
Rest and anyone listening. This has.
Scott
Been going back.
Derek
Three, four years. I’ll take you, Cookie. All righty. What’s in the toolbox today? Well, as in all the episodes we have mentioned will be in the show notes. There’s a link to the rest by Alex Sujan Kim saying that Scott mentioned their link to Psycho Rest. That’s the reason to Saundra Dalton Smith’s book, Their Atomic Habits. I can recommend that one.
Derek
I really enjoyed that book. It was excellent and stopped by Valerie laying. I’ve been really blessed and benefit from her stuff last few years. Link to Burn and Rest. There’ll be a link there. And lastly, a list of things to improve your sleep by Matthew Walker and a masterclass is an article on there. But all the things are in the show notes.
Derek
Now. If you have a topic you would like us to cover, email us at resources. Average Australia dot com that are you. We’re going to pick up this conversation about risks next episode to join us in I’m Derek Hannah.
Scott
I’m Scott Chat soon.
Derek
In If you guys you ever watched on cinema at the cinema? Sorry. No you haven’t. I got to school on cinema. At the cinema. Tim Heidecker is comedian live credit like seven year running joke. He’s cried an entire court case of five day where they filmed a five day court case. You know one of the running jokes is Greg.
Derek
He’s his cohost, but he introduced himself the case into saying, you know, my cohost, you’re a guest every single your guest, every week. Yes.
