[0:00]
we've got quite a crowded webinar about 25 people from across Australia and one or two internationals so first let me say thank you to the New Zealanders who are actually coping with the time difference but to begin with sandy this is possibly a question that's worth putting to you and Ray then chime in and help each other out what are some of the warning signs that your marriage or kids are being sacrificed on the altar of church planting now I know the pair of you have had decades of church planning experience now what would you say some

[0:30]
of the warning signs that you know things are not going as well as they could be I think there's two big things within a family dynamic one is is there's no time for each other and certain things will come out of that and the other is if there's no family fun together if there's no sense of enjoying life because things are so busy so I do remember you know I was with the kids

[1:01]
they were very young when we started church and I felt like I was with them 24/7 but you can be with somebody and still not give them attention and I distinctly remember doing play-doh with the kids and they were chatting away and one of them in particular said to me listen to me mummy and I said I am listening and then she very gently put both her hands either side of my face and turned my head to her and she said

[1:31]
no I mean really listen to me the mummy so I think that was a bit of an eye-opener that I you can actually as a mum be with your children but not really be giving them your attention so one of the things that we we did very early on and I think really helped us with our relationship with our children with spend individual time together and our youngest daughter still remembers and speaks fondly of the times that every Thursday morning ray would take her to

[2:04]
preschool but he'd take her early and and they would sit and have a milkshake together and over that year that was their special time together on a Thursday morning she was four at the time and she went she still remembers all the flavors of Milkshakes that they went through that year so I think just yeah valuing and carving out time for each of your children is very very important so sandy ever did you've identified the the

[2:34]
family pressures from your perspective Rea what what was some of the warning signs if you like when things weren't going well well a very clear warning sign was when your wife says to you after six months of church planting ray if it keeps going on like this it's not gonna work which was a shot over the bow and she sat down I always remember so clearly in the Landru she said actually she did something she'd never done before sandy had sat at my feet put her hands on my lap and gently it wasn't in

[3:06]
the angry tone or any Millia collation she was just it was a shot over the bow really it was saying if it keeps going on like this it's not going to work and which point if you ask me what exactly what she meant I wasn't sure whether it was a I can't be a minister's wife B she was about to divorce me either one was neither attractive so I know 18 now really the content was I wasn't taking my day off that was the issue and I call sandy a low-maintenance wife which is not a criticism of otherwise but that's

[3:37]
her nature I she's not like she requires exhorting the exorbitant amount of time but she had for four years at more college said to me I would I was working on a Hebrew model of time if I took part of a day off that was equivalent to a whole day and and and and what happened was I just presumed and presumed and presumed until finally she just drew a line in the sand and I think you know I creating a culture where your wife's got enough confidence to be able to do that and then hopefully having the

[4:08]
discernment to not only listen but you actually have to change your practice and draw you know draw those bill those fences around things like time together and not compromise them like that's when they feel safe and when they don't it usually comes out in either withdrawal or critical hypercritical nurse you know there there'll be the symptoms I think that you'll see and with cynicism and once you start to say that we're well and truly down a very bad road here so how do you actually manage to avoid

[4:39]
developing that sort of point I mean you've given us the good warning signs you actually have pressure within the family that your wife is talking to you you've touched on one which is the the idea of the day off what are the other things that you you were keeping up or you learnt to keep up together in order to stop that sort of crisis as you say giving so far down the rabbit hole that you actually and now you know you're in trouble what are the things you used well I think the time together with the kids one on one that's critical and maybe you can't not everyone can do it

[5:10]
every week but make it a regular habit I think being there emotionally it's the notorious complaint of ministers kids that their kids are physically their parents and fathers are physically present but not emotionally present and they always know it's not like you can fake that one and it's that own it's it's that you know you can do the letter of the law and kind of be there on significant amounts of time but they just know whether you're you're there emotionally for them or not and and so

[5:41]
being kind of emotionally engaged with them wanting to be there now they take that the battle with that is you've just got off a phone where someone's about the divorce leave your church criticized you or something you know and you're having to sort of move from one zone to another often Church offices in an early church plant they're in the same home we fortunately have a little granny flat that I turn into an office that I could deem okay there's no time to debrief when you move out of your office into the challenges of family so you just have to give

[6:12]
yourself that five minutes where you need to remember what your first calling is and that's to you know after Jesus loved your wife and kids and it's that sermon we need to keep giving ourselves the other thing is making sure the date night thing happens on a regular basis we didn't in the early days sandy found it hard I think to give the kids to others but eventually we did but I tell you I got to the pool I was afraid to go on a date with Sandy on our own wondering what are we going to talk about I've left it too long hmm is that

[6:44]
reasonable we're talking I mean part of the the point of this webinar today is in fact to actually prepare people for reasonable costs – that will come your way so is it reasonable to assume within the first couple of years that there that there is going to be a real crunch on the couple relationship that it might actually be very hard to to achieve you know the optimum day off each week those sorts of things well I you got to think so you can say

[7:14]
something I was just going to say often church planters tend to be tend to be young families and and so it's not just you changing and beginning a new ministry your whole family changes and I think then trying to get time as a couple becomes hard because you've often relocated out from your natural support network and so trying to establish that support network where you're comfortable leaving your kids with someone that you

[7:47]
trust and and often having the money to to be able to you know do things as a couple becomes an issue but whenever there's change in a family dynamic this always stress so it's just the natural stresses that come from change that that you're often experiencing because you're out of your your comfort mark your questions like is it inevitable just the nature of an early church plant whether

[8:18]
you can juggle all the balls properly through that time yeah I think I think I think many people are wondering that yeah I think it just hey I think you can pass for godliness it's not like for the sake of the kingdom I somehow forfeit principles a B and D so I could achieve you know FL and M you know if you got it just yeah what was helpful for me I did Titus early on as a certain I realized you know the requirement of an elder is that his children are believing and I

[8:51]
know you can take that word in different faithful as opposed to on the faith but it seemed to me that where my kids were at spiritually were my qualification and earned me the right to do what I was doing and so once that was clear to me every time I was tempted to presume on them I kept thinking I could lose my job if I did I know wasn't the highest goal but sometimes I had to remind myself that you know if I keep presuming on them then I'd be unfit for

[9:23]
doing what I was doing and then the church mate would really suffer so sometimes it does mean you have to then trust the you know God's purposes and his priorities and you might you know what you might and grow as quickly mmm that might be the thing but you'll grow on a better foundation right okay but listen again I see a church plants come and go but when you hit our wage the kids are all gone and then you retire and there's just you and the wife okay

[9:53]
what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna pause us now because speaking of growing we've actually managed to bring our back into the conversation so that man who was going to make you sound like you are a little girl is back again how can you can we hear you now joke I gave someone gave a sermon of mine to a

[10:25]
their cousin in the mid 90s and the cousin said your minister sounds like a girl nice guys I'll just say um what I'm going to do is I'm going to drop off now so I can let the the real people have the conversation but just so you know there's a bunch of people who've just sent on some very encouraging comments see how our taps they are by hearing the ministry couple like yourselves Ryan and Sandy actually do struggle with the idea of the day off and yet how valuable it is thanks very much to Tara who sent

[10:55]
that encouragement into you guys so look I'll hand over to our who can carry on the interview and if you have questions as we're going along please feel free to use the question option on GoToWebinar and we'll actually get to a point where we'll be asking you specifically so fire them away and I'll feed them to the guys as they go on over to you out okay thanks Mike race Andy yeah thanks for the stuff Abed man it's gold and I'm I wish I'd done it better 20 years ago from my point of view what ask you

[11:26]
slightly different question about the first two years when you start a church plan you'll have people join you sometimes they're brand new they're not Christian that's that's great but sometimes they're Christian or kind of Christian and they come with a whole lot of baggage one of the people listening is after this question in the first two years do you need to be more tolerance of those pushing a different agenda or less or is there no kind of difference so what do you do with people who turn up with a whole lot of their own agendas about what church should look like or

[11:57]
theological agendas or or whatever you know small church plants because that's what church plants normally are they're smallish congregation small churches attract the learner they're disaffected and those want to keep church small you just get a high percentage of them and because they're more likely to get your time because there's less relationships there so they usually get to the minister of quicker so you're more likely to hear that and then there's that natural thing that happens that you

[12:27]
feel more in a smaller group I think it's still there a bigger Church but the impact is felt less and that is people come with their own experiences of what they had which they really liked especially like my first four years as a Christian in a church was my template and it was so significant for me I wanted every other church to be like that looking back now I just think they would just major problems with how they conducted things but but at the time that was that was my norm and so so in terms of a lot of church practice you

[12:58]
want to hold on to your vision it so much of this is how you conduct yourself so people need to be heard and loved and the teaching just doesn't happen at the pulpit or even in the Bible study group it happens in the course of a conversation when you're trying to create another vision for them that perhaps they don't have that's grounded in Scripture and that kind of wisdom and then sometimes when they start to see the fruit of that you make those connections and then they get excited by

[13:29]
the forward progress that you're making now when it comes to doctrinal matters push them up front and early so because they'll just be a pain if you don't so early on I realized I needed some form of newcomers a time where I could work through issues and I specifically went out of my way to pick up every controversial issue from the women's issue the predestination as you know where we stood in the charismatic issue and and because in the end what happened was what I realized people would join us and then discover we held some view

[14:01]
three months later they were emotionally connected to us and then and then I have to spend all my time trying to work through the issue and it was just labor-intensive whereas you know I used to call them my culling nights where I'd say that this is what run about this is what we believe and at that point they could then make the decision whether they want to join us but from an informed position are you saying sorry sandy go ahead it's just it's like the pain particularly for women in our women's ministry you know we get these

[14:32]
women coming along we'd love them they'd love us but then certain issues divided and because they were we were small it there was there was they pushed against it so there were a number of women that it was it was a difficult journey with them I mean we we they left us and left as well but I did in the end say to them obvious I don't think this church is is where you are going to be happy they

[15:03]
wanted to change us and yeah and I think it's important when you get people who come with different agendas to make sure that as much as possible that you love them through the process its but it's finally like be clear and what you believe early I can't a clean up front rather than in more pain LeBron yes are you hearing me clearly I can't the other thing is and so we you know

[15:34]
one's vision ones doctrine but there's you also want to be able to hear and not think that you can't be corrected as well and so you know sometimes you just don't want to believe all your own rhetoric and it added and so you've got to read the situation as it presents where you're read so I came in with an ethnically specific model Maltese I'm you know I was very dependent on the influence of people like Archie person and the Greek Bible fellowship he stayed

[16:06]
on a much more for a longer time on a much more ethnic specific model it sort of overtly but I realized where I was that I had to adapt and here that we needed probably a broader base up right now now theologically I've actually shifted on that and think probably that's the ideal anyway but but at the time I actually needed to hear what was at the ground level and just work out my responses on the ground without forfeiting my core principles okay I

[16:38]
know Nepal and the past all talked about being patient with those who disagree with you does me yep on one topic that they believed it or heard it and the fact that there probably weren't even there that Sunday you know it and that's right it in some cases take the sovereignty of God and an election you know I realized talking to one guy the god that he grew up with I you know as a

[17:09]
Christian completely Armenian had no view that God had any involvement in suffering and and really it was almost like it was a different God for him and you know that was going to change overnight you know that was that was going to be just a walk through the scriptures over years in some cases till they finally kind of come to this sense that of course it's the same God because they believed in the Lord Jesus but it was it was a paradigm shift for him yeah and that takes patience you're right yes can I pick up there out that the

[17:41]
multicultural Maltese two multicultural thing the question here we're ministering to a group of Nepali sorry and a group from the Nepali community through a translator how long do you think we should offer meetings in Nepali I guess you know the question about how how long do you run multi multi lingual church services and so on well behind the question is probably an assumption that you ought to move to an integrated English or you know where people are in

[18:12]
a multi-ethnic congregation is that is that like a specific Nepali congregation separate from the English speaking congregation is it a much background here mate so just give us a little bits of logical principles then okay I I think I am theologic I have shifted I think there is always a place in in terms of mission for the homogeneous you know specific specific for as long as you've got people coming off the boat you're gonna need a place where this

[18:45]
identifiable ethnic group needs an identifiable ethnic ministry to hear the Word of God in their mother tongue like that's a non-negotiable and for as long as they're getting off the boat so to speak and literally in our case are really Hill we've got about sixty refugees every sixty weeks or six weeks that are moving in that that's the gonna be there going to be the constant thing so we've installed interpreter birds now we haven't they're not quite operative yet where there'll be three languages but they'll be part of the congregation

[19:16]
we do have an ethicist we have an ethnic specific congregation that remains because it's essentially an outreach Congregation for the Arabic speaking people but Nazeri who pastors that has a commitment to as they hear of Jesus here the gospel get converted he actually wants them to be part of our multi-ethnic congregation because that's the ideal you know helping people to recognize that we're all one in Christ so so yeah so as for the Nepalese I

[19:48]
think you might need to keep running it but what you want to do is keep creating avenues to not see there's an end point but as a transition point even though it might take some time for that transition to happen okay so the idea is people kind of a front door for people's ethnic-specific but maturity looks like everyone's kind of big enough to to be together yeah the most cigarette you know I heard mark demos on this and in terms of building multi-ethnic congregations a book by

[20:19]
Mark de mayors on that topic that building healthy multi-ethnic congregations is the name of the book he makes a good case you know for the fact that you know the moat in the United States and most segregated time of the United States now is at 11:00 a.m. on a Sunday morning and you know the the the whites got a white church is the blacks got a black church is the Hispanics go to Hispanic churches and where we're proclaiming a gospel for all nations where we're all one in Christ but we basically hang with our own tribe just as violating I think the integrity of

[20:49]
the gospel especially now that the world has caught up and is leaving us behind in their agenda to actually bring nations together and cultures together yes yes okay now along the lines of that but who's going to do that work another question here how can we encourage more by cultural Australians to consider full-time ministry to non-english speaking cultures so I'm assuming I mean people from a migrant background in some way gotta have a second language to

[21:19]
English any ideas about how to get them out into the gospel workforce you write this sometimes a greater you you think that would be the group most likely to want to do it and sometimes it's the group that resists more partly I think they've inherited their family immigrant mindset which you know you come to the new country and you know you want to build your Taj Mahal and a house for every one of your kids especially say the Mediterranean Middle Eastern worldview you know but I you know the

[21:52]
early days of mbm I spent all my days you know casting visions for Christians from non-english speaking backgrounds and trying to remind them that their ethnicity was a gift and that they had an opportunity to reach a group that were hard to reach and more likely to be reached by someone of their own kind and and so you know the normal stuff about getting people to full time ministry operates but adding that particular vision that they have something unique to contribute they know

[22:22]
what it's like to live in the overlap of two cultures in a way that maybe and Ozzy finds it a little bit harder to grasp and you know you know we had like one guy one a Syrian guy he he travelled a long time to get to us he traveled the distance to get to us and eventually he he chose a local Anglican Church and then about three years later he was back with us and I said suckers what are you doing back and he said well he said you know the past there was brilliant you know the the Bible study lead was gray but he said I feel like you know me and there's a sense where I could speak

[22:56]
to him from the inside and so that's not to say that he shouldn't have stayed and all that issue but it's just a reminder that people with both cultural backgrounds have just got a unique opportunity and just keep casting that vision with them especially the fact that Australia is becoming so multi-ethnic now do you think right right you think that applies to people who were born here I took a young Asian guy the other day about the third culture thing and he said he doesn't really feel at home in in Australian

[23:27]
culture doesn't really feel at home in Chinese culture and I mentioned the third culture thing and his eyes lit up yeah I think that's right I did to be honest you know a lot of people who are zis don't feel like they fit into you know we need to sort of sometimes remember most people don't feel like they belong I mean it's like it's a core problem of getting people feeling like churches home from anyway so but but that has its unique elements to it so that's right there they're not like their grandparents and they're not like their parents and and whenever you get that category which it's shared with

[24:01]
others you've got an opportunity for ministry there and then trying to tweak ministry in that way but you're right it's not a question of when they came so I've got people who get off the boat and yet really adjust well to a new culture they embrace it and and in a proactive then I get people who were born here but a more ethnic than their grandparents are from the old country and you get different kind of nuances that develop is is there a factor that

[24:31]
people from a non-english oh just feel like they have something in common just actually kind of being non-anglo yeah because it's just got to do with you live I like I just described it as the overlap of two cultures and and so there's the Aussie culture which you know growing up being told you're a wall you know there's certain things you know you got your mum who's got a thick accent when your friends come and visit you know they laugh at or you know any other kind of that sense it makes you

[25:01]
feel like you're not like them and you know you've got stories that are connected with another land you know and that your parents will tell them pass on and your extended family we've got a very broad extended family and and it's interesting when I went to my first church which was a good church some Paul's went with or I invited all my Aussie friends but I it was like I couldn't bring any of my relatives if I just I just feel like the jump was so great now I you know I witnessed to them but I felt like the gap was so much

[25:33]
larger because partly who was there and not there and the partner the denominational issue of course and partly just the cultural differences yep yeah well well it's great to talk more about this because the world has come to us and there are some of us who can reach different cultures right thank you for time I need to hand back over to mark as he warms up this webinar thanks a lot thank you thank you and Kate Kate

[26:06]
going for a guys it's it's an awesome privilege and and you know there is a world out there that is not treating God the way he deserves to be treated and and for his sake and for their sake I'm so encouraged that you're actually doing really hard-working Church planning in very different and difficult contexts so much encouraged by that actually if you can yes I'm back in but guys some yogurt the end has been as some what brought forward too quickly we're actually just

[26:37]
moving to question time now in fact we've been wrecking out there's you know you're not that easy what can I say actually while I'm here let me ask the first question we've actually got a question from Dan Godin and it's for Sandy and right and that being while you are starting the church

[27:08]
and would there really there's a lot of people who really want to hear about those first two years so we've had a nice excursion into multicultural ministry but talking to you as a couple how did you balance what was happening at the church while at the same time and here's the million dollar question sometimes disagreeing in private over the strategy of what you should be doing who would like to answer that one first I'm not sure what you meant by disagreeing behind so also disagreements behind the scenes but yeah but about but

[27:42]
about the actual ministry itself sandy probably you didn't have kind of strong opinions you just sort of at that stage yeah I had very very young kids my role in the first two years was really everything the first year everything was in our house every meeting Church was in our house on Sunday evenings so everything with their so my role in that that first year was to to make sure that there were quite a day in the week so

[28:14]
that we could cope with the really really busy days in the week and just keeping a structure for the kids and but almost every day except for I don't think Monday we had anyone in the house and our day off we didn't have anyone in the house but every other day the house was used for ministry so in those early days it was the the conflict came when I felt there was I had no space and and we

[28:45]
had too much going on but in terms of how ministry was going ray you know we prayed together as a couple we read the Bible with the kids but we didn't meet to discuss churches such he he met with we had a core team that we met together to discuss things so I mean you know you it's those conversations you have we did have conversations but they were never formalize know that run that don't always you know wherever you are you talking and part of the issue is

[29:16]
you have to create time where you're not talking Church that becomes important as well for the sake of the family but yeah sorry mark I'm not sure we probably picked up the answer the heart of the question no no I think you did actually they were talking sorry you can hear me now I'm assuming you can tell me that yeah look no I think you did and in fact um there's a follow-up question which Dan wants to ask what are the you've

[29:49]
talked to this inspired you to have dealt with strategy and challenges in the first and second year what about the challenges for the the church playing support team what questions should be should they be asking and what sort of stresses were they undergoing in the first couple of years can I just ask I just there's a thought that kind of a minor bear just the husband and wife different couples there are different styles of relating so there are some

[30:20]
spouses that need to be very involved in the whole process and it's just the way they're made up there for them to feel like they're part of it sandi probably didn't need that as much she just knew where her circle circle of responsibility was and and I you know I would share to the degree that she wanted to know stuff but really she was not that kind of a wife that really needed to sort of work through oh you know she was happy for me to carry stuff

[30:51]
and not unload on her and I'm the sort of guy that really if I come back from something I don't have the need and some guys have the need to debrief or their spouse and that's not the way I'm wired so you've got to work out how you're wired and how that works out between the two couple because that's where the tension can be created where where you know some goes over and then the wife is feeling hearing all the problems but unable to act and that has its own tensions other wives needing to know like they feel more loved by being informed and very

[31:22]
involved in in the process so it's kind of reading how you relate to each other and what's helpful will probably be different from a couple to couple now as for the actual core group I think that would be the same thing isn't it I take it that they're alright you're gonna have to understand those personalities as well within your core group is that fair to say yeah that's exactly right and you're forever you know you're forever casting the vision and creative ways encouraging them I mean you know you spend a lot of time encouraging people you know because especially in

[31:53]
the West it's just kind of like oh I shouldn't say in the West oh I don't know whether it's any more here than anywhere else but but encouraging what they do and and valuing their contribution becomes really critical because they get tired and and making sure you're not pushing and beyond what they can bear for the sake of our own needs you know especially mail passes you know we're type-a we we are we want to we want the church to grow to a thousand in two weeks and and that kind of without unwittingly we can actually

[32:24]
put a lot of pressure even on the core group so you're wanting them to go forward you're you're you're you're willing to value a high work ethic but you don't you want to be careful that they're in a set of relationships that they've got their own families and you want to make sure that they're not neglecting them in the process as well and that those stories need to come out and you say you're checking with them how they're going that's that's a really important question and because Tara has a follow-up to that she wants to know during the first two years how did you handle disappointments within your core

[32:55]
group you know the idea that people who work or to establishing the church might decide to leave or or you know not even necessarily on bad terms but the fact that those people who are holding it together just seem to be drifting apart how did you handle that yeah that's a good point III just think I named it for what it is and just kind of Express put words that say it's it's discouraging isn't it and saying you know you know early on I hit that I hate

[33:26]
I'd talked about you know this is where we're gonna work out where they're willing to be a cult or not because cults don't ever let people go well the kingdom of God is bigger than our 22 people or our six people wherever you're at and and so we want to we want to encourage we want people to live well and I said but the then touring drawing a circle around the privilege of being able to say we were there in the first year and the second year in ten years from now when we look back we are going to be so glad that we hung in there and

[33:56]
so reframing it as well as constantly think training them to think theologically about disappointment you know and and then airing with others giving them permission to share their grief and disappointments and so you walk with them in that and then at the same time you know it's God working in all things for the good of those who love him and them that God's purposes won't be thwarted because persons you know these these particular people found that the journey was a bit too tough for them all for whatever reason had to leave so I think letting yeah sorry I

[34:27]
was just saying I'm sorry to interrupt there guys I'm just with an eye on the clock and the questions are piling up here a question for you sandy is part of being you know part of the ministry team and particularly being the wife of the pastor is part of your job being the glue to hold the emotional stability of not only the past but I think people who might I think this relates to your point ray about handling creating an opportunity or a space of people to make their concerns known sandy did you find that you are a bat-channel to that or

[34:59]
did you find that you were a glue somehow in between the relationship with people I think ray is relationally stronger than me so so people would be drawn more to Ray than to me I'm yeah I'm yeah I'm more male and he's more female i was using sandy as an example

[35:32]
for the limits of body language and how we words to understand God for example you know we needed to speak and I just happen to make mention about say take sandy for example this is with her permission by the way mission I underlined that with her permission I said sandy has a downturn mouth and which means you you might unless she intentionally smiles you may think she's upset with you I'm so glad you said that right I thought sandy was upset with me yes so in saying that I think people

[36:03]
yeah over the over the years I I've had to learn to draw people out ray doesn't naturally I think where I'm the glue is in terms of managing the home and doing all the the background stuff to to keep everything organized and you know food being bought things been organized by particular time so I'm much more of a manager so in that sense I was I was the glue and and naturally that's my natural

[36:36]
gift so I think one of the things that I did like in the early days was the as a couple we were church planting Ray was the church planter and I was the supporter in that and then Ray just allowed me to work out what my gifts were and and my priority is always to the family and then anything outside of that was icing on their cake so I think in terms of I felt very free to try and

[37:06]
work out where I should be serving rather than a pre sort of yeah yeah I feel like I was free to work out what I should be doing yeah we need to be I suppose most church planners are optimist but I'm sure there are some who aren't but it's the thing about seeing a negative situation and being able to flip it for an opportunity and you know theologically you know God turns the sins a minute of the praise of God and

[37:37]
he works in all things good and bad so it's kind of trying to always find how is God going to be glorified through this whether it's a great event or a sorrowful that and putting that on the agenda I think is a healthful way of going forward okay well speaking of negative situations and flipping them for the positive we've got a question here from Andrew and we'll probably make this our second last question because if everyone's been very patient because of the technical difficulties we've gone over time but how did you prepare Andrew

[38:07]
wants to know your core group and support a network for the spiritual warfare that early-stage plants attract so in terms of the the stresses and the tensions and particularly the spiritual pressure that would come in how did you prepare everybody for that well you gotta have you got to clearly understand I really didn't ever clue what I was doing perhaps if we put that one on the table first of all so how would you like to have no idea what I didn't know thank

[38:42]
you that's a good reminder so there was an ancient saint in the home church that was gonna join us who I thought she'd make up the numbers were proved to be you know one of the great godly Saints of our church that had a great prayer ministry so I prayed every week with her before we started I think it's opening the Bible and we never met I don't know how much I did beforehand to be honest I you know we taught would have talked about the cost of commitment and the challenges that come and being part of a

[39:13]
core group as well as the privileges but a lot of it was on as things came up constantly getting to think Christianly about it being honest with disappointments celebrating the joys and and seeing that it's a journey of teaching along the way and then you know you're doing one to one stuff with people this you know people whether they're part of a church plan or not they're they're real Christian lovers gonna go up and down anyway we need to remember that you don't want to so make the church planning experience unique

[39:44]
that it's like these things would happen otherwise Christian lives just go up and down it's it's the nature of it emotionally we're up and down we have joys and sorrows you know people still lose loved ones whether they're in a core group or not just talk to any missionary a so it's not so much what we did beforehand but I think what we did along the way that was more critical this you know to be like pre marriage counseling it doesn't do all that much impact it's only once they hit the brick wall that you journey through them with the difficulties yeah well listen our final

[40:18]
question comes from Dave and it actually flows on quite neatly from there in being prepared to talk to them you're actually presuming or I guess we're assuming that there is going to be some sort of accountability context between you and the core group or that you're going to be either following up or meeting up with core group members and other members of the tour of the planning team what does that look like and what sort of questions would you be asking of them in order to sustain them will help them or make them think more

[40:48]
critically of what they're doing in their role well I would start with the person because it's who we are before what we do so I'm always interested in how they're going in their walk with Christ so questions to do with their devotional life you know opportunities where they could where they're witnessing or not witnessing – because often you know they'll have context that they don't even even in the core group they're not even thinking and I said if you ever thought about you know inviting that person at church now I haven't really I don't I don't know why you

[41:19]
weren't thinking there but they weren't and so you know helping them in their own Christian walk within there and in their relationship so their personal walk with Christ their relationships our spouses – because that's what hijacks ministry all the time if you don't get the basic stuff right you've got no platform upon which to reach out to others and then in their ministry just talking to them about it you know how it's going reminding them about what why and what they're doing you know what what's the goal on the purpose that's driving it and

[41:52]
celebrating with them as well as grieving with them and then it may be along the way when it comes to their ministries you know sometimes they're doing things for a year and then but as the church grows you want to help them find out perhaps where their sweet spot is where they where they really got a really nice to to minister in and and maybe you know start talking in the few about where they may take the next step within the same sphere of ministry or move in another area so there's some other things but I always want to start

[42:24]
with who they are how they're going and work from there you know I guess they're actually bound sorry sandy go ahead I think I helping people to see how God has made them and and not to compare themselves with other people within the course so finding out what their gifts are because they will you know if you're exercising your gifts you'll tend to enjoy what you're actually doing rather than working against the way that God has made you and also realizing that your plate is different to somebody else's so people

[42:55]
can cope with multiple things and some people can cope with one thing and they're not any less part of the core group if you know in that you know that's sort of respect so trying to help people to see where they give sir and what size plate they've got and and celebrating that with them so sorry just on that there I'm glad one guy he battled with depression and he really struggled to release his wife because he felt intimidated by her success you know

[43:26]
successful ministry she was effective in the various ministries so it's getting him making sure he stays on his antidepressants because in his case he had a family story that made you know discouraged him from wanting to take drugs it was like a weakness so I often had that conversation about how you go with you man you know you're on your knee Debrett are you taking them consistently helping them to think Christianly about that it's an act of love for himself and for his family so you're working with them and you know those sort of up-close journeys as well mm-hmm well right sandy we just like to

[43:59]
thank you for being part of this morning with us particularly just giving you some insight into the early days in fact what sounds like very much a no-holds-barred insight into your own particular struggles as a couple and also how you were dealing with your core group and how that reflected out into the church so we're very thankful for that insight and thanks everybody for attending this morning and also for the questions that came through and mainly I'd like to say from my end thanks very much for your patience with the technical side of things we had a few this morning that are unusual and as we

[44:30]
get through that maybe we'll either just repeat the bugs and be better at them or maybe we'll get them out altogether ray and sandy thank you very much and I'm sure we'll be in touch with you in terms of further webinars in the future thanks a lot guys thank you feedbacks yeah see you guys now before we have everybody switch off I just like to actually ask you to take a moment to consider what's coming up next in the Geneva push calendar if you are in Sydney on June 12 and you have some time we'd really like to encourage you to get along to some Phillips York

[45:02]
Street to be part of the five M's Network event the the whole structure 5m structure can be a little confusing for some people and yet it's actually been quite powerful in church planting and Andrew hood and Toby Neil and Dan Godin will be there to talk about the 5m structure and how they've used it as the axis for building healthy church plants and also more importantly mission minded churches ones that are actually keen to plant more churches that's on in City on

[45:32]
June 12th all of the details are on the Geneva push website it's $40 a full ticket if you can qualify somehow as a student you get $25 so if I were you I would be thinking about all the things you might be studying and getting a folk to that event also if you look ahead in terms of our webinar calendar you'll see on the same events page that we had the next one coming up with Peter Coe now this is really going to be interesting for those people who had lots of multicultural questions this morning to Ray we're feeding those through as we could but you might have more to go

[46:03]
Peter Coe has done a lot of thinking in this area and he will be dealing with traps for ethnic planters which is not to say that you are an ethnic person and you're trying to plan but if you're sitting down to try and work out an ethnic based ministry then you really need to think through a lot more than have we got the right morning tea so Peter Cohen Alice jute we'll be talking about that on June 27 at 9:30 a.m. and we look forward to chatting with embed and we'd like to give our last big hi to insurance and thank them for all their

[46:34]
support they really do make this entire event possible by picking up the background costs and also they provide a service for church planners which we think is quite valuable in terms of insurance for organizations around Australia and in fact the world but also and in particular of special I for church planting and the particular costs associated with that so if insurance is a bug there for you and you're not sure how to deal with it we'd encourage you to have a chat to then go to ei o ei you and they will take care of you and sort of guide you through the process finally

[47:05]
guys this is the end of this particular webinar but we'd love to have your help to try and make it better so you'll receive in the next couple of days a link to a survey it's for questions if it takes you four minutes I'd be surprised if you can answer those they'll be really helpful to us and allow us to sort of better shape the webinars as they come in the future thanks again for your patience and we hope that we'll be able to see more of you joining us again in the next webinar in a few weeks time goodbye