[0:00]
I did wonder Rolls Royce, you know, what's sort of conveyed by that, kept under a sheet, only allowed out on Sundays, something like that. But whatever it is, really my goal in this time this morning is just to share something of our experience with Trinity Mount Barker and for some of that, I hope, to be useful and applicable, even if it's only what not to do in terms of.

[0:30]
what you might be involved in in terms of planting. So Trinity Mount Barker is just over three years old, three and a half years old, and I'm the pastor there. I was the one who started it three years ago, and we were planted from a church plant. So Trinity Hills Church in Orgate was planted in 2001. I came on board there just before its second birthday. It was there for six years or six years.

[1:00]
seven years or something and then we planted at Mount Barker. What I understand, my brief to be, is to explain a little bit of how we planted the process and then to talk about some of the strengths and weaknesses of the particular model that we've used, is Rolls-Royce model, mother-daughter, kind of large group planting, but there'll be some time for questions as well. What we did, well, it was a very long process.

[1:30]
So before we planted, we had two years of fairly significant planning and preparation. And before that two years, there was probably more than 12 months of more general dreaming and scheming. Let me see if I can. Excellent. What we did and why. So we started with a, oh, the boss is here. So now I've got to make sure that all my things are true. You can ask Paul whether this is actually what happened.

[2:00]
I'm just looking my face. So we had a few false starts due to staff changes, staff injuries. We'd actually had some plans in place that we put on hold at a couple of different times. But in May 2008, so this is two years before we launched, I presented a paper to a group at Trinity that was called the Church Planting Task Force. So this was a group of leadership in the church already set up to establish new churches and to manage and oversee church plants.

[2:34]
Really, I think the goal of the church planning task force was to keep church planting on Trinity's agenda and also to retain some sense of institutional knowledge so that every time the three Trinity churches, as it was at the time, every time that group planted a church, they didn't send off all the knowledge and experience of church planting with that group so that the sending churches would be back at square one. So for us, this church planning task force was for our little network of

[3:05]
three as it was, but it could equally have just been the leadership of any single sending church. So this very simple one-page proposal was some basic demographics. Here's Mount Barker. Here is where it is geographically in relation to Trinity Hills Church at Allgate. We, I think we had a map of where people live by postcode who are currently attending Trinity Hills Church. This looks like an obvious place for us to plant a church.

[3:37]
They said yes, that sounds good. Give us some more detail, which then a few months later was followed by a more detailed proposal. So this was July 2008, so 18 months-ish roughly, out from planting at the beginning of 2010. This was a long proposal, this was 21 pages or something of who lived out What sort of people lived in Mount Barker? What was their kind of demographic profile in comparison to the demographic profile of people who were currently attending Trinity Hills?

[4:11]
What were our obvious points of connection to the people who lived in this area? So the whole demographic thing, income, education, all that kind of stuff that we wanted to think about in terms of working out who were the people in this area. area. Part of what we learned at this time was that Mount Barker was the fastest growing inland town in Australia and was second only to the Gold Coast in terms of markers, measures like new building approvals and those kinds of things. So rapidly growing area, let alone the

[4:47]
fact of the people who were already there needing to hear the gospel, there are thousands of people moving in in the next couple of years or in the next projected 15, 20 years even, who needed to hear the gospel. That was the demographic stuff. We also wanted to work out for ourselves church governance and those kinds of issues. So issues of church polity, would we be an Anglican church? How would we relate to the other churches in the Trinity network? How would we run our finances? What kind of leadership structures would we have? Who would we take from Trinity Hills

[5:22]
Church? All those kinds of things. What broad flavour? of church, would we be planting? Would it be an all ages family service? Would it be some other kind of thing? And then in the proposal, I proposed some of the steps that we would take towards planting. So I proposed that I'd put together a core team of 15 or so people to plan and prepare and pray for 12 months before we launched and we proposed roughly the numbers of people that we take from Trinity Hills into this new church at Trinity Mount Barker.

[5:56]
And we were looking at about 50 adults and kids. And we said that we'd probably plant a Sunday morning, all ages, family-friendly sort of service. That fitted with the demographic, the people who were there. And also that was a good reflection of the people that we were taking from Trinity Hills Church, which was that same all-ages, family-friendly kind of thing. So this group, the church,

[6:26]
task force within Trinity signed off on that and so we got to work. So during 2009, so for 12 months prior to launch, I met with my core team of 15, roughly fortnightly. I think it ended up being about 20 times or something throughout the year. And these people were, this wasn't opt-in. This was people that I chose from our sending church.

[6:56]
I said, will you come and be part of this thing with me? And we basically started with an almost blank sheet of paper. So we wanted to think, well, what are our beliefs, our values, our vision, all those kinds of things. We worked through that kind of stuff together. We did more work on our demographics. I really wanted the people who were this core team for this new church to understand the area that they were in. almost all of them all of them were living in the area already at the time and so they had

[7:34]
some idea of what area you know what the people their neighbours and what have you were like but we really wanted them to to understand the region one of the exercises I did with them was something we called neighbourhood exegesis so I got them to pick somewhere maybe their street maybe a playground where they went with their kids and maybe near a local shops or something. And I gave them a list of questions. Who are the people that you see? Where do they go? What parts of the neighbourhood do those people not want to go into?

[8:07]
Where do you see the kind of different groupings within this area? We're a fairly small area geographically, but even so, there's the other side of the tracks. There's the nice suburbs. There's the streets that are the dress circle and the streets. streets that are very much not the dress circle. So we wanted the core team to really come to grips with those sorts of questions. The other thing that we did in terms of getting these people to understand what it's like

[8:38]
for new people to come into a church building was I sent them out into what I called secular churches. So go somewhere where you don't normally go. Maybe where you've never been before and work out what it's like to be an outside. in that place. So that when you invite your non-Christian friends and when our people invite their non-Christian friends into our church gathering or into church events, you've got some idea of what it's like for them. I really wanted this level of leadership to be absolutely drenched in knowing what it's like to be a non-Christian person coming into a strange

[9:13]
environment. So IKEA had just opened not long before. So some people hadn't been to IKEA. So I sent them to IKEA. Some people I sent to the TAB. One person, was telling me they went to spotlight. A bloke went to spotlight, never been to spotlight before. You know, where do you stand? Where do you go in? How do you talk to people? I went into a TAB. I'd never been into a TAB before. I had no idea what to do. Turns out they don't even have toilets in the TAB. So that's, you know, you can't even find out where to go to toilet. All these other people

[9:48]
know exactly what to do. When it's your first time, you got no clue. So I really wanted, our key leaders to be thinking through those sorts of things. We then had our starter group. So about six months before launch, we said to everyone in the Sending Church at Trinity Hills, you are welcome to come and join us as we plant a new church in Mount Barker in six months' time. We're really focusing on this general geographic area.

[10:19]
And we said sort of between here and here. So there were a few people who, you know, did opt in who we said, oh, I reckon you're better off staying where you are for geographic reasons or whatever based on where you live. And so we did end up with just under 50 adults and kids coming from that sending church. How many kids have adults? Yeah, 30 adults, 20 kids, roughly. Yep. We spent a weekend together. So we had a weekend conference, I think we called it. We were. We were a weekend conference, I think, we

[10:52]
call it. When Trinity Hills had been planted in 2001, they had a whole weekend away and they spent a whole weekend together. We just thought with the families and what heavy that we had. That was more complicated. So we just did a Friday night and a Saturday in our local area. We couldn't access the venue that we were going to be using for Sundays, but we hired another church nearby and used their facilities Friday night and Saturday. And we talked about all these same sorts of things with people. Who are your non-Christian friends? So you can be inviting along.

[11:23]
What is our, what is our church going to be like? We did a whole lot of brainstorming about the ministries that we could potentially do, the ministry areas that we wanted to make sure we had in place by the time we launched what might come further down the track. Lots of brainstorming about what those might be like putting together some of the detail for kids ministries and women's ministries and youth ministries talking about what Sundays might look like. One of the things that we did was we gave out cards, I might even have one, that we called our starting six cards, which I haven't got,

[11:57]
where we had space for six names of non-Christian friends. So we gave out postcards and we encouraged everyone in the starter group to write the names of six friends they were praying for that would come to faith through the ministry of this new church. And so from the very beginning, as soon as people signed up and said, I'd like to come to this new church that we're starting, bang, you've got a starting six card, write the names of friends on. that and so every time we met when the core team met when the starter group met when we were talking about it just in in small groups and one-on-one we always talked about who's on your

[12:29]
starting six card who are you praying for and in god's kindness we've seen some of those people come to faith some of the people i've got on my card i'm still praying for looking for opportunities to invite them along we wanted to build in from the very beginning like i said as soon as people said yeah i'm in i'm part of this church plant the very first thing we wanted them to be doing was thinking about people they knew needed to hear the gospel. We also wanted people to be able to answer the question, why start a new church? We figured that was going to be a question that they would get a lot, especially from other

[13:01]
Christian friends in the region. And so we wanted them to be able to answer that question and be able to say, look, there's lots of people in this area who need to hear the good news of Jesus. Even if every one of these churches was full, there'd still be thousands of people who couldn't fit in. So we want to say. start a new church and engage people. At this stage, if I said, would I do anything differently, I reckon I'd work even harder at the one-to-one evangelism stuff.

[13:35]
A, I think that's, I think it's good. I think you can never do too much emphasis on that. But also I think it's better for the evangelism that we do as a church, sort of evangelistic program stuff. to grow out of that one-on-one stuff rather than try and grow the one-on-one stuff out of program, if that makes sense. So I've just finished a spurt of Simply Christianity, which has been excellent and has just been superb.

[14:08]
But where that's worked the best, humanly speaking, is where it's come out of the conversations and what have you that people are already doing, not people thinking, oh, Simply Christianity, who could I invite? Do I know anyone who I can while along to that next time around? So I reckon if we could work even harder at that next time, that'd be good. Let me run through a couple more things. We did a soft launch, so four weeks of pretend church. So it's what I called it, sort of not publicly, and not theoretically, it was church.

[14:39]
But four weeks, before we had any sort of public stuff going, you know, where are the powerpoints? How do we set out the projector? We're going to park our car, all those kinds of things. and then we went back to our sending church to Trinity Hills Church to be sent and we timed that partly deliberately to be sent on their anniversary. So Trinity Hills, one of the big event in that church's life is their anniversary, their birthday. And that was always deliberately a focus and a big Thanksgiving time.

[15:13]
So we got sent on their anniversary, on their ninth anniversary. And I think it's really important to be sent. well. Both for the sending church, sorry, both for the planted church, the daughter church, I reckon maybe even more significantly for the mother church, for what you'd call closure, in order to actually help prepare for the next plant. A significant part of preparing for the next plant is, in my experience, the sending on that day

[15:44]
when the church gets launched. We then had a launch. And I would say, start how you're going to continue. So I preached on 1 Corinthians 1. We preach Christ crucified. So anyone who came to that launch was under no illusions of what kind of church this was going to be. We were going to talk about the cross and we were going to talk about people needing to be forgiven and needing Jesus to stand in their place. So I'm sure there might have been people who came on that first day thinking, oh, this might be a good church for me. Oh, it's one of those churches.

[16:14]
We don't want to be a part of this. Well, at least they knew early on. and there was no misapprehensions. A couple of other things that we did. We ran a five-week mission in a nearby town in Strathaarbon, starting on our second week in the evening. So we had church in the mornings and we did this five-week evangelistic mission in the evenings. I have no idea why we thought that was a good idea in our second week. And this is the port where Paul chimes in and says, yeah, I never thought that was a good idea either.

[16:48]
I'd never so. But it was a great experience. It was good to do evangelism. The timing was crazy. We ran a three-week mission four months in, so about July, in our first year. That was a much better idea. We deliberately held off launching Bible study groups until term two. So we launched about term one, beginning of term one, roughly. but we didn't launch Bible study groups until term two, which was after Easter that year.

[17:25]
Particularly for two reasons. One is we expected that be a reasonable influx in the first couple of months, and we thought it might be more helpful. If rather than every single week we're sticking new people into every group and the whole group dynamic thing changing every week as new people join, it might be better to get the initial growth spokes. slow down a bit and then launch groups. The other thing is that we run a course we call God Church and Me, which is a, it's our new

[17:57]
members course. It's four weeks. It's Bible study and discussion. And it's really all about how, what do we believe at Trinity Mount Barker and how does what we read in the scriptures work itself out in the life of our church. So each of the four sessions is divided in half. The first half is Bible study time and the topic might be squirted. Scripture and prayer. That's one of the sessions. So we do Bible study on that. The second half of the session is working out, well, how does what we just saw in the Bible about scripture and prayer, how does that work itself out in the life of Trinity Mount Barker?

[18:30]
So how do I get involved in prayer ministry? What is the prayer ministries? What's connected to prayer? Why do we set our preaching program the way we do? Why does Clayton do most of the preaching? Why does our kids and youth program? Why are they so Bible focused? Well, all because of what we've seen. saw in the scriptures. And we wanted to get as many people through God Church and me before we kicked off our Bible study groups. And so that was the other part of the reason for not kicking them off straight away.

[19:01]
Let me run through some strength. And then there's time for Q&A at the end if you want some. Richard Harris of the North American Mission Board said, besides God himself, the greatest resource for church planting is the Mother Church. and we were very fortunate that we had a mother church. Of course, all this is contingent, and everything I'm going to say about the strengths of this model, Mother Church, daughter church, large kind of sending church. All the strengths of this model, I think, depend on the health of the Mother Church.

[19:32]
And if the Mother Church isn't actually, at least moderately healthy, it doesn't have to be growing rapidly or anything like that. But if the Mother Church isn't healthy, then most of these strengths actually fall down. So a straightforward DNA transplant. So the mother-daughter model allows healthy DNA to be transplanted fairly easily and straightforwardly into the new church. So whether that's first level core things, the uniqueness of Jesus, the centrality of word ministry in the life of the church,

[20:04]
or second or third order issues, like for us at Trinity, a commitment to a network of churches. That's not a gospel issue. That's a second or third order. or third order issue, but still we've got agreement on that. For us, again, it's being committed to being a church that plants churches. So because we had a large group, come from a church that was already committed to those things, we had people on board with that from day one, almost everybody on board with that with day one. We weren't from the very beginning trying to negotiate.

[20:38]
What do we want to focus our attention on? Yeah, do we want to be one massive mega-church? Or are we going to plant churches? Where do we fall on that? Those things were already agreed. The other strength is the growth picture. And various studies have shown that, and it depends a bit on who you read. But it takes as much energy and effort and time to go from 20 people to 50 people as it takes to go from 50 people to 100 people.

[21:09]
Or as I said, even depending on who you read, some would say as much energy as to go. go from 50 to 150. So if you can start with a larger group, there's plenty of good evidence and good experience to say people have more energy, they're more time, they're not tied into so desperately trying to keep Sundays running or whatever it might be to keep things going. They're easier to invite their friends when they're not on 10 rosters on that particular Sunday morning.

[21:39]
Also, I think there's a strength in that we inherit mature leaders and so I already had confidence, a high degree of confidence, in the people that I was putting into key ministry areas. Numbers of them were people that I'd trained. So I'd been in the Sending Church for whatever, well, six or seven years. Yeah, there was one guy particularly who I'd disciples as a youth group leader. I'd worked with people, some of our core team, definitely some of our starter group.

[22:09]
We had already planned at an evening congregation in our sending church. church. You know, I'd seen these people doing ministry on the ground. I had great confidence in them. They were highly mature. I wasn't kind of desperately scraping, trying to find people to them to slot in. Related to the DNA thing is that the vision is already widely and deeply held from launch. Somebody wants to describe church planning to me as like getting a bunch of people in a canoe and paddling across to an island. And that's great if everyone is paddling towards

[22:41]
the same island. But if some people want to go off in this direction or some people don't want to go to the island at all, some people refer to go back where we started. Suddenly paddling isn't quite so straightforward. The other illustration is that a camel is a horse designed by a committee or a bus designed by a committee would have 10 steering wheels and no accelerator. Well, we were able to avoid those things because the vision for what we wanted to do was already shared by a large number of people who were in key ministry.

[23:12]
areas and leadership. Resourcing support. So in theory, the year before we launched, so 2009, half my time was supposed to be spent working on the plant. But of course there was no people in the plant at that stage. The plant didn't exist. And yet, I was still able to be paid. We were still able to buy the equipment that we needed. We had obviously, we meet in a school, in a school gym. We have. We

[23:42]
to bring absolutely everything except the chairs and the building. So all our PA, all our kids' ministry staff, it all comes out of a trailer. So we had to buy all of that before there was actually anyone putting money in the collection at Trinney Mount Barker. So because the Mother Church was able to set aside resources for planting, those things could happen. There's also in the community, there we go. We had identity in the community in the community. We had identity in the

[24:12]
the community already because people knew about Trinity. We weren't trying to carve out an existence in people's consciousness. Oh, you're from Trinity. I've heard of Trinity. We're only about 12, 14 minutes door to door from the church, from the mother church. And so lots of people knew who we were. They know that we weren't nutcases who were trying to plant a church because we hated every other church. We've already had some existence in people's minds.

[24:42]
in the community. The, for one of a better term, miscellaneous resourcing support. So everything else that's hard to quantify and you don't think of it until you actually need it. So, you know, when you need an A3 laminated or a photocopier that can print in color, double-sided or whatever it is, there was an ability for us to tap into a larger church that had facilities,

[25:12]
staff, equipment, office space, those kinds of things. And because the Mother Church is committed to the health and survival of the daughter church, they're already committed to helping us and making those kinds of things available. The other one that's related to that is expertise of people in the Mother Church, in the Sending Church. Now, I don't just ask someone in that church to help us out as a personal favour to me, which I could always do. We can, you know, we're often calling our friends to help us out.

[25:42]
But I'm asking them to do it as an expression of the partnership in the gospel that I already know they share and are committed to. And so we're able to make use of people and resources and those kinds of things in the Mother Church. Accountability. In Trinity's particular structure, it's not so much to the Mother Church, but to the network. But it has the same function. Who am I as the planter accountable to? Even my leadership team. There are accountability.

[26:12]
It gives a lot of confidence to the people who join our church. Clayton's not just some guy out there on his own. There's theological, there's practical, there's financial accountability. Behind the scenes a little bit. People who can hold you accountable and ask tough questions about your decisions and the things that you're doing. Loaners, as they're sometimes called, people to give critical mass, maybe musicians for Sunday services, kids' ministry helpers, people to help you do your community evangelism and your door-knocking,

[26:42]
and your face painting and all those kinds of things. It's not something that we drew on particularly, but I know that some of the other Trinity church plants have done it, borrowed people from the Sending Church to just help get things up and running off the ground. There is a reflexive benefit. That says training beneath that little church building there. A reflexive benefit for the Sending Church, and that is when you take people out,

[27:12]
when you're putting evangelism very much firmly on the agenda, that benefits the sending church as well. So it creates new opportunities in the sending church for people to grow and people to serve. So, you know, if we took five Bible study group leaders from Trinity Hills Church, well, that's five new opportunities in Trinity Hills for people to be trained and step up into that area. And when the core team and the starter group are praying for their starting six friends, well, the rest of the church are hearing about it and thinking, oh yeah, who can I be praying?

[27:42]
for in that same kind of deliberate way. And so mission and evangelism will be very much right on the agenda, on the agenda. And when the church is planted, people are then able to think, oh, okay, well, what next? We've done that. We actually managed to get that church up and running. What's next for us in terms of seeing the gospel spread rapidly? I don't know whether you've seen that Ayers Rock diagram that came out of Sydney Dioces a few years ago, of the different stages of a lifestyle of.

[28:12]
a church, in the life cycle of a church. So some are growing, some are plateauing, some are doing the opposite, shrinking and dying. Planting, sending numbers of people helps keep the mother church, the sending church, in the healthy stages of that cycle. There are, however, some weaknesses, I'll whip through some of these and then give you a chance to ask some questions. Large numbers said obviously have a greater impact on the sending church.

[28:42]
So out of a community of about 350 people at Trinity Hills with a regular attendance of 300 on a Sunday across two gatherings, we took just under 50 adults and kids, as I said. So about 300 adults and kids on a Sunday, we took 50 adults and kids. That's not an enormous percentage, not an enormous percentage, but obviously it has more of an impact than just sending two or three couples, whatever it might be. What is it?

[29:12]
Yeah, I don't know, whatever that is. There's a possibility for drift back to the Mother Church, you know, whether that's dissatisfaction, whether it's the hard work of planting and being really involved doing lots of stuff, whether actually there's the heightened sense of evangelism is a bit confronting for people, whether it's my friends are back there. There's always a possibility for that. We were quite…

[29:42]
aware of it and ready for it, as I said, with sort of 12 minutes door to door. We haven't seen much of it, but when there is a strong relationship between the two places, then that's obviously something that can happen a bit. The danger of cloning, because of the shared DNA and the shared work in planning to plant, people coming from this place and going here, there is a possibility that the door to church doesn't just inherit the DNA of,

[30:12]
of gospel priorities and all those kinds of things, but also the DNA of blind spots. You know, we didn't even ever think about reaching this target group because in our sending church, no one had ever thought about reaching that target group. We never thought about doing this particular way of engaging people with the gospel, because in our sending church, no one had ever thought about doing that. And the danger there is in reproducing form rather than reproducing the essential values and function. and then related to that is what I've called the desire for cloning.

[30:46]
Now, when you start with a fairly big sort of group, it kind of looks like a real church. It's not, you know, just a few of us in our dining room and we know things are different. When you're in a gym and there's lots of seats out and there's a PA and there's songs and there's a kids program, people expect all the things that they had in their fairly significantly larger sending church. So, well, I expect that there's three different types of kids programs for my kids. something for my youth group age kids and a kids club after school. And I expect the ladies Bible study. And I expect a bloke's group.

[31:17]
And I expect a monthly prayer meeting. And all of a sudden we've filled out by time and we've got no time for meeting with non-Christians. That danger of, it looks kind of like the church that we were a part of, but we don't have the capacity to offer everything. We need to be more selective about what we do. It's always that danger that people will still think, oh, well, we used to have, you know, pots of meat, pots of meat. We used to have this and the other in our large church. Why don't we have that now and a little bit of dissatisfaction that can creep in there?

[31:50]
Okay. That's what we did. That's some observations on it. What I am keen to do, and Scott will give us the wind up when time's up. But any questions on any of that? So before you said it's really dependent on the help of the Sunday church, the mother church, as to the strengths. Yeah, yeah, whether those things are strength or not. Yeah. I guess you also mentioned it would be a life cycle church. So what areas would you say would, I guess, include it from being in a church that's strong enough to do it while?

[32:23]
First of me say, my experience of a church planter, I've done it once. So I've got my experience and my reading to draw on. I'm not sure that you would say a church… Oh. It probably is churches who shouldn't plant when I think about that. It doesn't have to be rapidly growing or anything like that. And while I wouldn't say church planting, you should plant,

[32:56]
I wouldn't say you should plant as a deliberate means of fixing the sending church. I'd say this would be a better means of trying to address issues in ascending church. I think it can still be good for. a church that's not really, really healthy, but those benefits of the model won't necessarily be quite so strong. The DNA transplant and those sorts of things could have more issues than we experienced.

[33:27]
But I know that when Trinity Hills was planted in 2001, Trinity City, which was the only Trinity Church, there was just one church in those days, wasn't growing. It had actually plateaued and started to decline. That's my understanding. Yeah. So it's not that you have to be a rapidly growing church to be able to plant. So Trinity actually started to tip, and yet what we saw, we, I wasn't around then, what we saw was that was such a good experience and all those reflexive benefits for the sending church.

[33:59]
We can do this. Who am I praying for? Yes, there's lots of lost people in Adelaide isn't there. Actually then made a health contribution to the sending church. I mean, there might be some, you know, if the church is crippled by ungodliness and those kinds of things, I would say, yeah, probably address those things before planting. Yeah, but I wouldn't otherwise say there's, you know, a reason not to plant. Great.

[34:29]
You talked about borrowing or receiving resources from the Mother Church. Yeah. In your particular case, did almost, or did all of those come from Trinity Hills? did, was any of it from Trinity City out through the network? In terms of borrowing things? Or in terms of the starter group who stayed with us? In any of the… Yep, okay. So the starter group, the 50 adults and kids, almost all of them came from Trinity Hills. There was, I think, one couple who came from Trinity City,

[34:59]
who happened to be living up that way, but for various reasons have been connected in the city. They came with us. So the starter group was that. In terms of other resources, we actually did. tap further afield, which is really just kind of our structure. So Paul was my boss in terms of the planting stuff, not Cameron Munro, who I was working under at Trinity Hills. That's really just a kind of a Trinity idiosyncrasy in terms of our structure.

[35:32]
And our admin, well, our sort of high-level admin, payroll, you know, legal stuff for us was done by the Trinity Network rather than the individual sending church. So when I was trying to find insurance, that was coming to us from the network, that's just our structure in a more typical situation of a church, individual church, planting, I imagine those things would just as easily be done by that sending church.

[36:03]
I mean, I know of other places who have drawn starter group from several different churches, and that's probably something that actually Trinity will see. see in the next little while as our church plants are getting closer together. As I said, we're 12 minutes from Trinity Hills. If we plant somewhere else, we could well do a combined plant and have 20 people leave from Trinity Mount Barker and 20 people leave from Trinity Hills to plant somewhere else.