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Well before we start let me give a quick shout out to one of Reach Australia's National Conference sponsors, Church Finance Central. Whether you've involved in a new church plan or part of a larger established church, your church finances like your bookkeeping payroll and reports are an important element of managing church life. But this can often be complex and it's hard to find help and it can distract you from ministry. So why not reach out to church finance central.

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You can learn more at churchfinancecentral.com. Churchfinancecentral.com. Lifeway Leadership Podcast Network. Hello, I'm Madeline Galea. Good day. I'm not saying good day. Good day. That's in the script. I'm Scott Sanders and welcome to the one thing. A podcast is on to give you one solar patial tip for gospel center ministry every week.

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Now Maddy you are on a self-imposed TV band. I am. Yes, you know what? It's one of the best decisions I've actually ever made. So what's been the fruit of it? You've been getting more into the word. You've been pushing into relationships at church. You've been more focused at the office. Yes, I've been trying to get my hands on. Yes, I've been trying to get my hands on. Yes, I've been trying to get my hands on. Yes, I've been trying to get my hands on. Yes, I've been trying to get my hands on. Yes, I've been trying to get my hands on. Yes, I've been trying to get my hands on. Yes, I've been trying to get my hands on. Yes, I've been trying to get my hands on. Yes, I've been trying to get my hands on. Yes, I've been trying to get my hands on. Yes, I've been trying to get my hands on. Yes, I've been trying to get my hands on. Yes, I've been trying to get my hands on. Yes, I've been trying to get my hands on. Yes, I've been trying to get my hands on. Yes, I've been trying to get my hands on. Yes, I've been trying to get my hands on. Yes, I've been

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looking for a way to get my hands on. No, I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I

[2:30]
close down ineffective programs that don't reach the lost all mature believers and help us think through that. Today we have Gary Eastman. Hello. Hi, Madeleine. Thanks for joining us and for joining. You've joined the staff team. It reaches us. I haven't dated. It's great. And you were the senior minister. It's St. Mark's, you and Ian Armadale. Correct. You are now the strength and consultant. It's working with church plants, particularly church planners supporting them, equipping them, raising them and going on the journey with them through planting.

[3:00]
And then after that, strengthening them. Yep. And it says here that you're at Windsor. Yeah. I did put that in the bio or what? Also that you're good around a horse. And I'm terrified of horses. So I did not. And I'm not. As lies. But his wife is excellent around a horse. And she is indeed. I like it. You are a good windsurf. Come on. This is an opportunity to talk about one of your passions. I just saw. Can I peel a ship? It's throwing in words now. I do race a windsurf. I'm average. Like I have been with every sporting endeavor ever in my life.

[3:33]
I've just been entirely average. But I enjoy it. Yeah. I like the honesty. Now, it's the start of 2022. It's a key time to be talking about closing down ineffective programs. Or is it at the start of the year should be opening things up, getting things started. So Gary, can you tell us when is it a good time to close down stuff at church? Yeah, ideally. It's in the planning phase, isn't it? As you're heading into a new year. So it might be that, right, this time, things are cranking up.

[4:03]
And it might be a little late to sort of start that conversation for stuff that's getting better down for this year. But certainly, this might be a time when you're thinking deeper into the year. You might be thinking about major events that happen every single year. And they're coming up in three, six, nine months' time. It's always a good time to be thinking about your programs, how effective they are, and whether they are, in fact, the worthwhile use of resources. So we've kind of deliberately chosen ineffective. Yeah, someone say thinking in terms of effectiveness

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or not is a bit unspiritual. But I want to push back on that and maybe suggest that it's a bit unspiritual to have no concern for the fruitfulness of a program to not have an eye on how you're stewarding resources. I think it's important to examine things in that way. If we think about effectiveness then, and you think about sort of a whole wide church programs, it seems to me that as a church goes on in time, you're always kind of just adding things rather than actually stopping things. We've just sort of coming out of a period of lockdown

[5:08]
where we're back to shut down a lot of stuff. Because of government regulation and just because of necessity. Yeah, what have you seen, Craig? I guess in your years of experience of working in churches in terms of programs and other things? Yeah, Suff gets locked into the program and they're never considered again. So you have this conversation about starting something it might have happened three, five, 50 years ago that something was started and it becomes non-negotiable.

[5:38]
But I want to say the church is non-negotiable. That's God's plan for reaching the world. He works through people as he gathers the church to reach a lost world. But anything beyond that is negotiable. Can you define for us what is an ineffective program? Like is it growth? Is it not in line with what it originally set out to be? Is it something else? I think I'd want to say what it's set out to be. Well, it depends what you've set out to do. I think a lot of things get started

[6:10]
and actually they were never clear in the first place. Yeah. In terms of what was actually being aimed at. But God has called us to make disciples. And we want to think in terms of growing everyone mature in Christ. That's the broad aim. And I think a lot of the times we do things that feel effective and might turn up. People might really enjoy it. But actually it's not growing greater numbers of mature disciples.

[6:41]
That's really helpful though. Actually thinking from the start, what are we actually intending to do? Did we actually achieve it? And again, over time things just get lost. We're not intentional and purposeful in why we're doing things. So again, coming back to that and also assessing, is this what we want to do? Now, Gary, you have got rid of an organ from a church. Haven't you in the past? So you've not only shut stuff down, but you've got rid of really helpful musical instruments

[7:12]
that proclaim life giving life. No, I'm not my what's greater than the organ. But I am not, I cannot play the piano. Which I think is a whole lot better. But for a time, the organ was the musical instrument. Fantastic. But I know from your history that you've actually got rid of organs. And while I'd say that out loud, Gary or not. I'm not sure that you were. So I'm not. This particular organ was not perhaps the most valuable instrument

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and it was taking up at that point in time very valuable space. Knitted every little sitting spot we could manage in the church I was at at the time. And the organ was probably past its useful date. And so with agreement of those who are attached to it, it was removed from the church. So very respectfully. So can you give us some more examples of ineffective programs? I want to talk there about, again, you've been thoughtful about space. I think space is one of those things

[8:15]
that has so much emotion. My husband built that hall. Our family gave to that. Spaces that can be very emotional. So too can programs and regular activities. Yes. So Gary, can you give us some examples of things that you've closed down in your ministry? There's a whole range of things that could be considered here. It could be a prayer meeting. And I have had regular prayer meetings that I've decided just weren't worthwhile continuing. They're a prayer meeting. It's a great thing who could consider that a bad thing.

[8:47]
But it just wasn't achieving its desired outcome of gathering the saints in prayer. For the literally two or three who were gathering every single week hoping more would turn up. They kind of liked it. But it just wasn't achieving the outcome that we're after at that time. We could be talking about a men's breakfast, which was designed to be an outreach. That had a great community around it. A lot of men were coming to that all the time.

[9:18]
But over years and years and years, there just hadn't been any conversion fruit out of that. If we wanted to get together just to enjoy fellowship and have a breakfast together, it was probably working well. But as an outreach, it wasn't working well. And so we stopped doing that. Congregations, I've had two congregations that were effective as a gathering of the saints encouraging one another. But they were soaking up resources. And we joined congregations together.

[9:50]
There's two different churches, a couple of different times. So for a talk, I assume at one point in time that congregation was started with a purpose that as you say, over time, it's lost that focus. And also over time, the churches changed as well. Churches do, sometimes, new demographics move into the area. And so what was once a right, good, helpful time needs to change. But also, what was also once a great group of people

[10:21]
where there was energy in life, over time they peter out and re-vitalising and re-energising? Yeah. And in each case, actually, people are very attached to it. And rightly so. And there has been a season of fruitful ministry. And that should be celebrated. And people get, feel a sense of loyalty, not only to the people around them, but to that history. And so that tends to be the categories that they think in. And so they're hanging on, even though they're feeling

[10:52]
really stretched and stressed and burnt out by it all. They have this great sense of not wanting to let people down. But I've given the opportunity just to lead that conversation into a bigger context of thinking about disciple making and using the resources across the parish. And once people see that bigger perspective and a given permission to think in those categories rather than simply just loyalty to that history and to their friends, to the people they're meeting with each week.

[11:24]
So that led to a really good outcome. Yeah. So partially, how are you having those conversations? You've just talked about the big picture helping people see what it looks like in a content. This gathering looks like in a context of the whole church. Well, it's got off distilled five things here, which I'm not sure it definitive. Yeah, that's good. And so it's not a direct answer to the question, but how about I'll kick you these five things. And then we can go from there. Here's the first thing I want to say about making significant change. I've got in mind the example of closing down

[11:55]
those or merging those congregations. You can apply this to lots of things. The first thing is, don't go rogue. We're talking about a change management situation. Depending on your leadership structure in your church, you'll have counsel, you'll have elders. You need to be working through those structures, both in a formal procedural kind of sense, but also in terms of recruiting allies into that change. When I've raised these sorts of issues with leadership, very often the response has been, they're going, yeah, we have seen for years

[12:27]
that something needs to be done about that, but we just haven't seen a way to navigate the relational aspects. So don't go rogue, work through your leadership structure. So number two, start with discipl making. I think the really unwise version in this conversation is to start and stop just with the negative. Your ministry isn't working, here's all the evidence you're done, it's over. That might be right, and you might be within your rights as leader, but you'd probably unwise to have that sort of conversation. So you need to start and we're going to come to it.

[12:58]
You're going to finish with the soil filmmaking as well. All right, so in change management, we don't want to go rogue. We don't want it is a disciple making opportunity, not just for leadership team, but obviously for our volunteers to bring our teams along with us in the process. What's number three? Encourage self-examination. The best way is to ask questions. How do the leaders of that ministry think it's going? They encourage about the progress it's made. You might end up with an ally and not an adversary.

[13:31]
It's at this point that I've had a number of people just express relief that someone's been interested and picked up on where the ministry is going. They see the issue, but they haven't felt they had permission to raise it. It's that loyalty to the people around them or maybe to the history. No, I like that because if we're on a team and we have an evangelistic ministry and you say to me, Maddie, let's have a look in the last two years. No one's become a Christian. Are we okay with that with our whole team?

[14:04]
I don't think we are okay with that. Maybe we can change something, maybe we close it, but it starts at conversation because I'd never say, yeah, I'm okay with no one becoming a Christian. Yeah, that's right. The disciple making asked me, it's very hard to have disagreement on that. Recognizing that people go through a process of grief as well, just actually pastfully being aware that you've probably in your head thought this over, thought through a whole bunch of things, you're there, you've gone through that grieving process, but the people you're talking with are still yet to have that opportunity to go,

[14:35]
there's a loss here. Yeah, absolutely. What's number four? Number four, finish the conversation with disciple making and what I mean by that is, unless there's something about the person's character that disqualifies them, make the conversation about the closing of a ministry, not their ministry. Have another aspect of disciple making for them to get involved in. That's a really positive conversation to point them into. So, hey, we're on about disciple making together, and maybe this isn't working so well,

[15:07]
we've got agreement there, but here's another exciting opportunity for us to so into. Yeah, great. And number five? Honour and celebrate. Number five, if it's closing something significant, honor and celebrate. What's been done? That's the grieving pastoral aspect, Scott. So, it might be even a special evening, if it's been something really significant over the life of the church. It might be just something you do in your Sunday gatherings or just you weekly email. Make a genuine, make a Christ-centered

[15:38]
and mission clarifying. That helps the congregation to know what's going on. It helps them to see what you're on about as well. Yeah, really brings people along with you as well. Yeah. Hopefully. What did you not realise about closing down ineffective programs before you did it? The extent to which people are very often sitting there, feeling burned out, feeling frustrated,

[16:08]
feeling unsure about how to change anything, and they're just so relieved very often when you sit them down and have a loving, clear conversation that sends it on the mission. Two or three weeks. I remember the first week in the Merge congregation of church I was at in Sydney. There'd been so much heat, so much emotion. The first week, everyone came together but was saying, oh wow, the singing's wonderful. Look at all our kids having a great time together.

[16:39]
Two or three weeks later, people were saying, this is great. I'm not on a team every single week. I'm not on two teams this week. I get to sit and enjoy church and be served by others some weeks. Three or four weeks later, no one was talking about going back. It just needed the courage to weigh things up into supple-making terms, to think about the stewardship of resources and what was going to be fruitful. And that was an absolute hinge moment

[17:09]
for the life of the church. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, let's even help like, like, merge in congregations, very significant. You might want 18 months to do that. You start a ministry, it goes for a month and you think this isn't working. We close it for some reason. You could probably do that quite quickly. So the longer, maybe the more buying people have, the longer they've been serving, factor that in in terms of how quickly you close it. I think it's really helpful, Madeleine. The, just to build it into the way you talk about ministries,

[17:40]
I would often say, there's no strategy or ministry that's sacrosanct. Mm. You know, everything can be sort of shifted or changed or ended just depending on what's working. So you build that into conversations all the way along and that helps people to be ready for change if that becomes necessary. Now, one of the things we often talk about and often say is that a church will never change until the pain of not changing is greater than the pain of changing. So let me say a church will never change

[18:12]
until the pain of not changing is greater than the pain of changing. Yeah, what does that mean? What's that, what's that saying? People do the same thing for a long time, potentially forever, even if it's not working, if they don't feel the pain of the lost around them. I think that's what it's saying. And so when it's a lead people from the scriptures looking at the people who are lost around them with the vision of mature saints for their church, if that's clear on view, hopefully a godly discontent grows.

[18:45]
So that they will want to go through the pain of changing so they can go out looking for the lost, going for maturity amongst them. All right, talking about the heart, what kind of fears did you have about closing something down? Yeah, lots of fears, Madeline, the fear of conflict. It's not pleasant to upset people and to have people upset with you. I've got some really clear memories which of us standing in front of congregations by myself with people in tears of anger and being upset

[19:20]
over a decision that I was proposing, it can feel easier to let it be. Only feel in the moment, but I'm pretty sure that's not true in the long term. A fear of failure, it just has responsibility and that means owning things when they don't work out as well as you'd hoped and that's a possibility. Fear of just discouraging people. Often we're talking about things that people are very attached to, Scott's already mentioned that in this conversation, people get very attached to ministries

[19:51]
and to some degree rightly so. There might be a history that they want to honour, a season, a long season of fruitfulness that they've celebrated in the past, they cherish and they want to see it happen again. And we don't want to discourage them by ending something that they're very attached to. What's the one thing you want to say about closing down ineffective programs? Keep the conversation centered on disable making. Great answer. Most distinct person. Nice and clear.

[20:22]
What's in the toolbox? Be great to download the Registrar Framework eBook or if you've already downloaded it worthwhile, just pulling out number two, being faithful with the means. Are going to be really helpful to read that through with your team and have a think about that. Also, I think one of the helpful things that Gary's pushed us towards is actually taking responsibility for those hard decisions but also giving that responsibility as well. So principle three, giving and taking responsibility would be another one, again, just to reflect on with your team.

[20:53]
Second thing is it's an article on the Gospel Coalition just sort of providing a counterpoint to Gary pushing into effectiveness and our sort of questions around effectiveness. So it's an article on the danger of measurable outcomes. And the third one, Gary's mentioned obviously Kotters book. There's a whole bunch of resources on change. I reckon it'd be worthwhile as you're thinking this, jumping into resources that push into that personal heart side of things and how people respond. Particularly if you're like me, you're a high T,

[21:24]
you're a high thinker and you don't actually think about people's feelings often. We're all to push into that. Yeah, all right. Thank you. But I don't appreciate the vulnerability. I don't land there. And I actually need people to push into that. So again, I realize most passes probably have more feelings than me. But if you're not, then I think that people sort of change is really important. That's good. What, there's no well-rounded leader, just a well-rounded church? Totally. Yes, there is better. There's no work.

[21:54]
So it's OK. And then you can change. Yeah, we need team. Thanks, Gary, for joining us. I'd like to be here. Great. Have you? Well, we'd love to have you join us at the Rich Australian National Conference, 16th to the 19th of May. Have you registered? We have 550. But by the time we've had five cars to go out. I have registered now, matey. I have registered. So I've finally done that email that you've sent me a few weeks ago. Yay. Really appreciate it. I'll be coming. That's good. Something you guys may not be aware of is the Rich Australian Network Dinner.

[22:25]
So it's on the Monday night, 16th of May at EV. You can sign up for it as you register for the main conference. It's an opportunity to celebrate over a meal or the church plans over the last 12 months. Those have been in the development program. It's just really a good opportunity to thank God for the work that he's done continues to do through the network. So go to reachastraile.com.au to register for the Rich Australian Network Dinner. I'm Madeline Gullion. I'm Scott Sanders, chat's sake. So you. Oh. So good. So good.