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Lifeway Leadership Podcast Network. Welcome back to the one thing. The last episode was a really long one. Sorry about that. And this is the continuation of tensions in the Burnett discussion. So listen to that one before you listen to this one.

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All right, tension number two, running hard versus finishing the race. So we have two quotes here. Spurgeon, God save us from living in comfort while sinners are sinking in hell. Christmas Evans, a British evangelist. I'd rather burn out than rust out in the service of the Lord. And on the other hand, we have God's word, the Bible, Acts 20, 24. I consider my life worth nothing to me if only I may finish the race and complete the task that the Lord has given me. The second

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tension when people talk about burnout is between running hard and finishing the race. So on one hand, ministry workers rightly want to run hard and give themselves fully to the work. On the other hand, ministry work can be long, a marathon 30, 40, 50 years in ministry. And if we run at a sprint pace, there will be side effects. So how do we navigate this tension? Of course, we don't want anyone to burn out. I don't look back on my burnout. I think that's

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the best thing that ever happened to me. I do look back on it and think, do you learn a lot? And do you know what I'll do differently next time? In fact, I know what I've done differently in future scenarios in order to avoid that. But no, I want to burn out. But what I think I want to see in myself, and I'm talking to other young leaders as well, I do want there to be attention in this. It's like that, you know, those exercise beans you get.

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You know, the ones that are just… Derek's demonstrating. Yeah, I'm demonstrating. Yeah, you're all post a video of how the demonstrating resistance family are quality viewing. But the resistance beans you get that I'm using at home in the month because I can't get to the gym. And you know, it's that thing with the resistance bin, you don't just pull it and hold it as long as you can. Like, that's not the point. Yeah. The point is sometimes you're pulling hold it. Sometimes you let it go. There's a rest time or a cover time and then you're going again. When you start that, you start with the little

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beds and you build up over time, you use different beds. You are building muscle mass. You're working out where your body's at. You're working out how to do it well. You're working on technique. You're working out when you go too far. And when you go too far, you don't keep going. You pull back. And then you rest and then you head back into it. There is a tension in here that I think I want to see and push in myself. I'm not just projecting myself to other people. I want to see. I want to work out how it is because of the calling that I've got under God who I am in Christ.

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I want to strive and run as hard as I can within the limits that I find myself. We didn't a season that I find myself within the relationships that I find myself in. And so I am pulling and stretching and holding the tension and then I'm realizing I've gone too far and come back. And then I go back again. And hopefully I'm building muscle mass over time. And I want to ask questions as I hold this tension. Here are the key questions for me that I'm realizing I need to come back to as I

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find this limit. I find this tension. I want to understand my role in all of this. That is, I want to be reminded I am not the creator. I'm not the creator. I am part of the creation. They are for I am finite. I can't do everything. I'm not expected to do everything either. God is sovereign. I'm not. But I'm called to exercise my responsibility and authority in this world in ways that on him and pursue his mission that he's on. Just see people coming. No, do you see

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Jesus on it? So I am going to run towards it. But I'm part of the creation. I'm not the creator. So I'm also not the savior. I'm just one of the saved. And so everyone's problems while I want to bear the burdens of those around me, they are not my problems to solve. I can't save people. And so I need to keep remembering I am one of the saved. I am not the savior. And so therefore because I'm part of creation and I'm one of the saved, I'm not the creator. I'm not the savior.

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There are limits to what I can do. And that's shooting form. Hopefully we've wisdom how I engage, how far I engage. What I can do. What I can't do. How I see my role. All those kinds of things. And so as I'm holding this tension and flexing and stretching and reaching my limit and then coming back and then going back in again in different seasons and moments in life, I want to keep asking this question, what is driving me here? What is at the heart of how I'm reacting to this situation? Or how I'm seeing it? Or why I want to do it? They're hard questions to ask. But you know, what is

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my mission here? Under God, what is my mission? What is my purpose? What does it look like to shepherd God's people? Who are my responsible for and who are my responsible to within that? Often I am responsible to God. I'm going to have to stand or hear me given a count for the things that I've done, but the way in which I've loved my family and my kids as well as my church and others as well. I am responsible and I am accountable in that as well. And so just asking that question, recognizing who I am, I'm a creator, part of the creation, I'm saved and trying to dig into

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that heart issue, not just by myself, we built around me to hold that tension, not being lazy, not pretending I can solve every problem, but working out how to stretch that rubber being in my life, that yeah, anyway, you get the energy of stuff, I get it. No, no, no, no, I'm going to keep going with it because I can ask, well, what would you say to someone, say a solo minister who's thinking, I have no way to ease the rubber band, I have no, I am at capacity, I am stretched and yet I

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can't think of a way to pull back. Yeah, yeah, it's a good question, it's a great observation. I would say as well in this, so I'm going to answer that, but I would say as well in this, I think people who are part, like I was talking to a guy, not an hour ago, who runs a large church, and I think he would say the same thing, how do I, there's so much of my shoulders, so much of my shoulders, you know, he wasn't, I wasn't talking about this, but I think he would say the same thing,

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everything just flows upwards to the person in charge ultimately, with your solo pastor, of 30 people trying to turn it around and loving care for the people there, whether you're a pastor, a church of 800, and you've got a staff team of 20, there's no rest, in ministry, my experience is there, there's nowhere to hide, there's nowhere to hide, you always feel that pressure, internally, you're always feeling that drive to care for people as well as you can, which is limitless,

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that people always want more, and there's always more lost people than you can, then you can hope to reach, and so for a solo pastor, I say I want to empathize and say yep, that is a real problem, it is a real challenge, but you're always going to feel like that, you're always going to feel like you're not doing enough, you're always going to feel like there's more to do, part of the answer that is working on the internal things, because the external things are never going to change, people are always going to need you, there's always going to be things to

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fix in the church, there's always problems to address, and you do need to work out how to pick them off and do them, but you need to work out for yourself, how much can you do, what are the key things that only you can do, what are the key things you are called to do, how do you pick them off, and where do you draw that line of say, actually I am part of the crash, now some of these are competency skills things, delegation, understanding what is crucial to your leading a church, all those things within Geneva and the Reach Development Program, we get people to reflect on as

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well, but before we get people to reflect on that, we want people to reflect on the convictions, and what the convictions drive us towards, because you're never going to get to the point where you just sit around thinking, I have so much time on my hands, and this is an easy job, you're not going to get there, with the churches 30, with the churches of 1000, it doesn't matter. Have I avoided the question there? No, no, no, no, I don't think so. Okay, I don't want to say I'm dismissive of

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that, I'm not trying to be any way dismissive, and I don't think it's an easy problem to solve, because there are so much to do, I, the guy runs my church, great guy, and there is so much to do with property and find all these kinds of things, which he didn't necessarily train for, and he's trying to juggle in there, he went into ministry, because he loves God's people, he wants to see them grow, and he wants to reach, you know, the area that our church is in, and so he feels it, keenly,

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it's a tricky issue, and so he is, at this moment, he is building muscle mass, he's trying to work out and how to lead well, how to navigate stuff well, how to care for people well, and he's doing a brilliant job, but it just takes time to work that stuff out. Yeah, yeah, no, that's good. Those, especially who are doing ministry in low socioeconomic areas, a lot of public housing, just have a lot of sympathy for how difficult those situations are, and I mean being in ministry

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is a very complex role, let alone, if you're in a housing commission area, you're not a social worker, but you kind of are probably in many ways acting like one, but a social worker would clock off, a social worker has training that you don't get in ministry, a social worker has a hardcore supervision that you probably wouldn't be getting, and I think probably, yeah, the key thing is, yeah, they start at nine, they finish at five, that's just not ministry life, and yeah, I just think that is so

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difficult, and I guess the moment that you put in healthy boundaries and you do say no to something, you know, to protect yourself, to protect your family, which is, you know, a great and godly thing to do, the reality is, you're quite aware of the implications of you saying no, you know, in a different context, you just say no to someone, they might be a bit offended, they might say something behind your back, but like, they still eat that night and they don't go home to a, you know, perhaps they don't go home to a terrible situation, like the repercussions of your boundaries

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just must have aware and tear, I think, I just, I think that's such a difficult situation. Oh, massively, massively, you go into a de-care for people and a lot of people, and then you have to say no to that, it goes against the grain, and yeah, you're absolutely right, and I think it's, there's these aspects of ministry in every context, by particularly the context you've described there, which are so hard to navigate, which is why can I say,

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people can't do this alone, they're having a supervisor, having a coach, having people outside of them that can connect with, to help them navigate that, to help them be able to pull back and recharge is absolutely crucial, because otherwise they just keep following their nose with their stuff, and their nose is to care for people, love people, and you just get to a point where, unknowingly, you are, you have become, when you feel like you are the solution to everyone's problems, not nefariously, you're not trying to set yourself up as a saviour, but you want to help,

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so having that outside voice to help you navigate that, not get to that moment, so that you don't burn out is hugely important. Yeah, yeah, uh, yes, trusting that, yeah, I think in that, just trust remembering as well that, uh, God loves them more than you do, no matter how much you love them, like, and believing in His sovereignty, but, um, yeah, I'm not good at transitions, sorry Tom, I guess Derek any, yeah, I guess Derek any final words that you would want to say to

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someone who is on the edge of burnout or is just quite discouraged, given lockdown or just pastoral situations where they're at in life? I don't have any wise words, um, I have the encouragement though, um, that this, this is God's work, and he, he will bring about His purposes in this, um, our role is, um, so remember who it is we are in Him, first of all, not being simplistic, but remembering who we are in Him, that He does love people, as you've said, Maddie, more than we can

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possibly imagine, um, and to trust that those things are true, we are cared for, us are cared for, and pushing into our responsibility within that, but this is all one sentence, because there's only one thing, but the way in which we stay in that healthy state, build muscle mass, uh, head off burnout before it gets there is to connect ourselves to other people

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as well, and so just doing that in this time, uh, is, is crucial moving forward with people who are feeling tired and exhausted and overwhelmed by stuff connecting with other people, uh, who will speak godly truth into their lives. Yeah. Toolbox, what resources do you recommend? Zeal with our burnout is the book, um, that I would recommend Chris Frasher, I think it's an excellent book going the distance by Peter Brain who, I know I critique before, but it's an excellent

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book, that was just one little section. The book's gold, the book's gold, um, so sorry, Peter, I know was a long time listener, no time caller. Um, uh, share that to Mike, it means his well-good life in the last days, uh, and then we, let me throw our John O's book again, uh, it's just a really good, coming from a different kind of stable to the zeal with our burnout, going to distance good life in the last days, uh, John O's book's coming out from a different angle and is very, very helpful. And lastly, can I say go and get a coach, uh, get a supervisor, it is very, this is a tough job in

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a tough environment to speak that outside voice, speak wise gospel centered words into this, in order to help you reset and get reconnected, it continued to build muscle mass to do what it is, you set out to do at the start. Love God's people, reach the last, go get a coach. Oh, that's a lot of dirty gas, put a fake wash on and it's distracting me. No, leave this in, let the people know. Uh, yeah, that concludes us for today. I'm Madeline Goliath. I'm Derek Hanna.