[0:00]
It's great on the B here, guys. I really love Geneva Push. I love what they're doing. I wish they were around 23 years ago when I started because I didn't have a clue about what I was doing. But look, if this is a total waste of time for you guys, it's alright because God has already used it. On the plane coming over, I sit next to a guy who, I mean, the fact that you know a guy on a plane, right? There's all these flights going in for the Liverpool game from Sydney to Melbourne. One plane after another. I'm sitting at a plane.

[0:30]
Right next to a guy from Rudy Hill. Not only that, I form a member of Rudy, here, MBM, my church, who stopped coming six years ago. I said, do you think God has got a point to be made here? I've all the planes and of all the places to sit. He got you sitting next to me. So it's been really, really good conversation. And so I've got a, I've got a, got a follow up on when I get back to Sydney, who has drifted away from the faith and may as a result of this.

[1:00]
Conference, come back to the Lord. So isn't that great? We can all go home now. It's been worth it. I love the idea that they call, I think you guys call Westies here. Your Western suburbs, parallels our Western suburbs from what I've been told. Otherwise, this talk is going to nose-died really quickly. So if you can just nod and make it look like I'm right in the sense that same kind of demographics, which we'll look at a bit later. But I think you'd call them squinters. No, have you heard that? You haven't heard that phrase? Well, someone

[1:30]
told me you call them squinters because I, because I thought it's an excellent name because when you leave the city to go home to the Western suburbs, you're facing the sun. And that's exactly what we do. We squint and you know, George would feel squinted and we're, I thought we're in good, good company. I'm a Westie myself. I'm born. I said, the suburb that I happen to be ministering in is Rudy Hill. You may have been out of herd. And we had the debate between Abbott and Gillard.

[2:00]
A few years ago, did that happen a few years ago? Was that Abboton and who's the prime minister? Rudd. Anyway, so it's made the, it's made and it's made the news a fair bit over the years. It's really in an occupier suburb. But I'll talk a little bit more about that later. I used to be the altar boy of the Catholic Church up the road, coming from a Maltese background. I've now become the Anglican minister down the road, which has got a sense of humor. I'm intuitive by nature. So I've had to really kind of think consciously about what I do.

[2:30]
It's not that there's not a rationale for it, but when you're intuitive and you come from a place, you don't realize what you're doing that, you know, what the conscious principles are half the time. There was no Geneva push when we started MBM, multicultural Bible ministry, which was 23 years ago. There was no MTS. I wasn't intentionally disciple. I went to more college for four years after I got converted and had a burden to want to reach Maltese people, my own people because I knew they weren't represented in evangelical churches. And I was

[3:00]
thinking, and I thought what I might do is, and I don't know how helpful this is going to be, by starting off with, what did I think when I left more college and started to do church planning with the homogeneous principle, which I now actually want to kind of shift away from? And I thought I started rattling them off. Can I use this sand? Is this front button? Oh, yeah. Okay. So we'll make it 30, 34 convictions. I think since I typed this, actually, I've got a two more. I'm going to race through this. I'm not going to lay with this, but you never know. I think if you go to the

[3:30]
one thing out of a conference, it's worth it's worth your money. So I thought when I left college to start my church planning, remember, there was six of a sort of Bible study in Blacktown, which is two suburbs away. I was committed to proclaiming Christ. I believe that the gospel was powerful to say that was a deep conviction. I was committed to proclaiming Christ from the scriptures. I think that's a very important qualifier. I used to evangelize as a young Christian. Didn't see many people converted for the first seven years of my Christian life. And then when I started opening the Bible,

[4:00]
I started over there with them. I thought I got out of God's way and he did the work. I remember when my first woman's pastor came on and she started, I said, Chairman, whatever you do, I said, make sure you open the Bible with people and half of our growth came through her as she did that. Thirdly, make sure that's being done at all levels. Not just the pulpit. Small groups training intentional wonder one and conversations working with men as of as of a first but not only priority.

[4:30]
There was a guy who was half interested. I hunted him down. My particular brief was Maltese, but I knew it was kind of like a Wogs ministry. I don't know if you use the word Woggins in Melbourne, but I'm a Wog I can say. We've later since started a Wogs for Christ conference, so we actually might bring to Melbourne next year. But I just, that was my target. I knew who my target group was. And now that didn't mean I did evangelize others who came my way, who opened to the gospel, but that's where I was proactive.

[5:00]
Clarity at all times. I'll talk a little bit more about that later, but if they don't understand, who's fault is it? Hours. That's got to be so drummed in the ahead if you want to work in the West. Actually, it's true anywhere. Ministry in the context of loving relationships, that's the preferred soil in which God worked. He can do whatever way he likes. That's his preferred soil. Follow the open doors for the gospel. I'm not going to push hard where people are interested. I just go with the doors are open. And it just seemed like I was like a detective.

[5:32]
I was especially with Wogs and there's kind of so many extended families. When a door open, you just kind of, you know, one person led you to another led you to another and you just kept having the same conversation with Deluk and we'd like to sit down and read the Bible together. That was pretty much it. Expect persecution and we did. Extended family networks proved to be great. Channels for the gospel, but they also proved to be when there was a block and someone got converted and there was a large extended family. I mean, I've got a 100 first cousins, right? When you get hostility, you really get it and it was the thing that was, we had

[6:08]
to really think through and having people talk to other people of being persecuted. In fact, my mother cried every day for two years when I left Roman Catholicism. Really bonded me to many people who knew that I knew their pain. Two core values that was simple love and truth. All things to all men was really critical for us. We train the culture, the church, to love flexibility, adaptability, creative with everything but the truth. There's a ministry in Sydney in the creative arts and they use that line, creative with everything but the truth.

[6:42]
Everything can bend except the word of God. And we kind of valued adaptability and train the congregation not to actually enjoy it. And to one green in is nine, you cannot be that and not be, you cannot follow that injunction by Paul and not be committed to being desperately open to every kind of strategy that advances the gospel. All things to all men, so they're by all possible means. I mean, straining at the bit, isn't it? The safe zone.

[7:14]
Got to lead from the front. This is obvious stuff. You know, if you're not doing it, did you notice when John O. Is preaching, he dropped three times in that sermon that he's been evangelizing. It's exactly what you do. It's funny isn't it? Because we've got that kind of, you know, Matthew seeks under your works of righteousness in public. But we've got to lead and they've got to see us leading and you ought to do works of righteousness that no one knows about just to check your own motives. But the reality is, all of that is telling us, I've got a pastor who is doing it he's up front and telling me three fresh, I think that was three stories. John,

[7:50]
John, I think there were three stories you dropped in and well, that that encourages me. I just think he's doing it from the front. Casting the vision for winning the ethnic West. That's our job and we always want someone else to do it. I always think someone's is better than me to do it, but it's our job. We've got to do it and think through how to do it. I'll talk a little bit more about that later. Present each person mature in Christ. We're not a renter crowd, you know, the job is to present. We're not just on about evangelism. It is the

[8:24]
Cypher ship. We want them active partners in the Church of God. We've got to want them on board in the mission. We want them. It's our job to present them two Jesus on the last day, holy and blameless. And that's important, especially when you're a church plant and you're just hungry for a bumzoned seat and wanting people converted. You know, Paul, you notice, I only really start to pray for people once they're converted. Ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus, and you loved it, I've never stopped giving facts and praying for it. Okay, don't get tired of saying,

[8:58]
I'm sorry, no, no. We're going to talk about being vulnerable and the West is really important. You've got to close the gap between you and the congregation. Am I going too fast? Okay, it's funny, you know, I'm sure there's 150 convictions. Isn't it good that I had started this not too long ago? Because I'm pretty sure if I wrote this 10 weeks ago, there'd be 150 convictions. I'll tell you why I'm actually doing this when I get to the end of it.

[9:29]
Say your presence, read your Bible, oh boy, forget that, just pack up and go home. My identity is not in ministry but in Christ, you know, it's very easy to lose your joy in your salvation and that guy changed it before time. You can lose it because you're just so worried about everyone else's salvation. Stop enjoying your own and they know it and you know and you become a grumpy old man fairly early on in life. You need to be able to walk away. It's funny in it. You need to get the point where you can walk away from ministry because I'm not defined by this. I'm defined

[10:04]
by my in Christ relationship and all the blessings that flow. I had to think about that five times in the 90s, three of them because my wife is not well and I had she needed to know that I could walk away from it as well, strengthen our marriage. My godliness is the congregation's greatest need. He said that. Make shame, great man and he's absolutely right. How godliness is our congregation's greatest need. Now when we started in BM, it was originally called the

[10:37]
Maltese Bible Ministry and then a whole lot of us here in this turned up so we had to call them multicultural Bible Ministry but we wanted to evaluate it after five years but we always approached it from a long term framework and especially in the West when it takes a lot of time to raise up leadership you get to enjoy the fruit of that down the track. Work hard because let's face it's the most important job in the world and souls are hanging in the balance. So you can be you need to work hard. Rest well because God has in charge. Drop your tools because

[11:08]
the tea's church not yours. Love your family because they are your first human priority and see your qualification. Once I remember doing Titus Watt and walking away thinking, wow, if my kids go astray, I'm going to lose my job. I better love them probably actually prove to be that additional incentive to make sure that I was not presuming on them. Dan Dau wondering, I didn't want to get to my deathbed and think I wished I had. I overcome. There are fears that

[11:42]
are holding us back from doing certain things. Dan Dau wondering, live for God's pleasure and approval. You know, you just thank you God for John Piper because he's really good at reminding us of this. Your greatest joy is in his delight in his glory. My prayer, Dari, I start Monday with that. Lord, may my greatest joy be in your glory that we live for his approval. We play to an audience of one. These are all familiar things but I want to just say they were important to me early on but I

[12:16]
have to keep revisiting. Celebrate the success of others. Rejoice with those who rejoice whether it's their job or whether it's their salvation. Share in the sorrows of others. We weep with those who weep and in some cases we literally weep. You've got to be there. Do things well. So the theme of excelling, you see the two Corinthians don't you excel in speech and in this and in that in giving. We excel because God gave us his best. We excel in what we do. Firstly,

[12:49]
character, right through to confidence. But we excel because we love the congregation. So whenever anyone, so the next line, preparation of a presentation, you know, when someone botches something up on Sunday, I said, I'll come, I'm only interested in one thing. Did you prepare? If they'd done, I said, why didn't you love the congregation? Jesus built blood for them. And so I want them to be driven by love for the people and God's glory. Services, I look, I didn't have a really thought it. I actually stole this from St. Matthias, but no one in St. Matthias remembers it. Our services church services

[13:21]
ran on three principles. We wanted it to be personal. We wanted to be profitable. That's edification in case you're wondering. I didn't have the prosperity gospel thrown in there. Although I did have a habit of singing, we're in the money after the in the first year at the end of every service. I don't know why that prayed. I had to stop singing it. Personal, profitable and pleasurable. Personal, we didn't get the the turgical line, especially in the west, we found it wasn't going to be helpful. You can have that debate later. Profitable, everything had to be driven by the word

[13:53]
and for the good of others and pleasurable. It's an obvious thing, but, but you get caught up in this little time walk where you just follow traditions for the sake of it and all of a sudden there's a disjuncture between you and the culture that you're in. I started really thinking, what can we do this Sunday that would actually be enjoyable and helpful and how we do things because my commitment to love the congregation means I just don't want to do the same things the same way with our thoughts. I always think what's something fresh that we can add each Sunday that will help people be edified and done in a way that's pleasurable and then create a culture of grace. Now we

[14:29]
talk grace, but grace is taught expressed in the way we conduct and live with disappointments. And I'll talk more about that later, but helping when people fail is usually the critical time. Now can I say, sorry, because I say things a little bit later and don't want to say things to early culture of grace, I'll shut up then. Yes, that started with me. I remember as a young guy, I think, you know, it's all right, Ray, you can make mistakes. That's funny, isn't it? You have to give yourself permission. It's all right. As long as you know, the mistake is in sleeping with

[15:01]
someone else's wife, not those sort of mistakes. And you know, when I teach a passage, I think to myself, you know, the third time I preach it, I'm going to get it right by that I mean, I'm going to really nail it because sometimes you're there, the camera's focused, but it's not asked with the same clarity as say the third time you preach it. So you see yourself on a journey and that was important to me. So grace applied to myself. Grace applied to those who leave. Remember one time did Bible study with a guy wanted to get baptized from a kind of a secular background. And I said,

[15:34]
look, why don't we read the Bible and find out who Jesus is. And after seven weeks, he got converted and he said, Ray, thank you very much. And we did seven days just for starters and discipled him. And after seven weeks, a couple of hours each week, he's converted, measure of discipleship. He says, thank you very much. I really appreciate it, Ray. But I've decided to go to Craig Tucker's church who was a Presbyterian church, Presbyterian church plant down the road. He's a friend of mine. And I thought, hmm, with Gritted Teeth, I sure, no problem.

[16:05]
But I thought, you know, that was going to be the day. It was, it was a reminder to me, were we going to be a cult or not? Could I let this man freely leave? He was going to a very good church. Now, the irony of ironies, of course, he turned up in my sister's church in Glibble Park as the New Catholic priest 20 years later. I said to Greg Tucker, hey man, I gave him to evangelize and disciple. He's now a Roman Catholic priest, what happened? Yeah, he left us for the Catholic church. He said, I know, that's a funny story, but we won't go, we won't say that.

[16:41]
Okay. So, showing grace to yourself to those who leave and to those who are going to make mistakes again and again, hang in with them. How you handle disappointments is critical. In bed with your spouse and Satan, what's that about? How you talk about disappointments in the end of a Sunday, when you're debriefing with your wife in bed, is where Satan's going to get his nose in the church. Because it begins there whether you're going to be embedded and kind of have a big session about

[17:12]
people at church or whether you're going to think theologically even there, because that's where I think Satan begins, his best work. Will you be thinking, you know, feeling the hurt, casting your cares before your father, maybe shedding a tear because at the end of a day, there's a there's a day of hurt and pain, right? Sometimes it's one of those Sundays where everything falls bad, people say cruel things, but how you handle that is the make or break of a church for me. Because no one else is saying this, you and your wife, you can get away with a lot of stuff that's

[17:42]
ungodly at that point. So I always picked, that's my little metaphor for my image of whether Jesus is going to write rule in this church. It's whether it's just Sandier I or me, Sandier and Satan. Okay, living in fear of committing adultery, I don't know what it is. I've seen so many good guys, better than me, losing on this one, destroyed the church, bring shame on Jesus, and you know what, it takes years to recover and all the mission or energy goes out of the church as people are wounded because they want to lead them to the Lord and shack that with somebody else.

[18:14]
Living fear, I still, now in 53, my wife's over there, I live in fear of committing adultery. That's why building in those principles, no woman in the house or in the office, you know, unless my wife is around. People not a means to an end, they are an end before God. You know that one this learnings, two reference, what is my crown, my joy? You know when Jesus returns, and then what does he say? Is it not you, it's being the this learnings, you are my crown and my joy.

[18:44]
I put a thought he was going to say Jesus is a glory, but you've got this learnings who I had sort of three weeks with, but I have to leave. You are my crown, you are my joy, you will be who I will be rejoicing in before the Lord Jesus Christ. People are not a means to an end, they are an end to the glory of God. I mean you've got to frame it correctly otherwise it becomes adultery. They're not a means to an end. Don't take yourself too seriously. It's really, and don't believe your own rhetoric. So you know we're reaching more altes and God brings us Syrians, okay? We go for

[19:17]
Mediterraneans and God brings all these hippies and I'm thinking it's not really work, but every time I go it, you know, they were trying to reach ethnic and God will bring who he brings. So you know when I sort of you know always believe everything you say, be open and vulnerable. I'll talk more about this. It's critical in Western suburbs ministry. Straight talking, openness and vulnerability closes the gap. You're going to hear me say that again and again and enjoy life. It's very easy to just forget that you know just find those things that kind of give you pleasure. It might be

[19:49]
watching your team play or whatever it is. Model boats. Okay any questions on that? There's just a blitzer. There's probably 36. Anything on that? You want to ask? No, no, that's what I was thinking in the first couple of years of NBM. I thought that's what I did. We saw growth and I'm just saying, well what did I think? I thought I'd articulate it. Yeah.

[20:24]
First couple of years. First couple of years that'd be worked out. Yeah. No. I'm not against. I'll use anything. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. I'm not against tracks. No, I tend to have a habit of doing a lot of apologetic stuff and having conversation with my

[20:56]
Bible closed. Sorry, you know you're not opening the Bible straight away in a conversation with so many just met. It's just that my orientation is I want to get them to the word. I want to let what I discovered was Jesus does his own thing. He'll actually heal the spirit in the world will convict that person. I just need to get out of his way and be a servant to the word and it's funny how I had this resistance to do it for seven years for fear that I couldn't do it well enough. But I found that just getting over that hump and reading the Bible with people, it just became

[21:30]
my little mantra. Thank you very much. It's so painfully obvious and embarrassing but I still have to be reminded of myself even after 23 years. It wasn't 25. We've been going for 23 years. Yeah. So all I'm saying is from the very beginning my goal is to get them to read the Bible with me. Now for me, you know what that means. It's got in the early days when we just had a lot of people from Catholic and Orthodox backgrounds. They knew the plot line of Jesus' life for example. As one

[22:04]
person said, we had all the pieces. We just couldn't put it together. What they meant was just a vacation by faith, substitution in a term. That's what they would say. So I just did just for starters. I had 50 people converted through the second study on Ephesians 289. It was more, but then I realized I had a broader demographic and then who didn't have the Jesus story. So we had to go back and do much more work with the gospel. So we did a version of a Christianity explain, but it really doesn't matter what it is that you're doing whichever method you use. All I'm saying whatever the method is, take him to the word. Take him to the word. And the beauty of just the

[22:38]
starters is if I can just I'm just I still use it after 23 years. It's one verse, maybe two verses. I mean, you read in its context, it just it nails you down. It drills you down to some key ideas. Especially with working class people, they get victories early on. I can understand it because the comprehension questions are so simple. They really can't miss it. What were we like when Christ died for us? Sinners? Yes, that's right. Well, and all of a sudden they're gaining a confidence

[23:11]
in an area that they often don't have confidence in, which is reading. Yeah. I'll talk about that later. Yeah.

[23:45]
You don't want me to do this talk, do you? I went to have a stuff to get in through. Yeah. Sure. I don't well, I'm going to talk a little bit later. I don't I don't cancel people for a start. I actually build other people into that. I meet up with people. I don't do

[24:21]
any long-term work with women. I meet with them initially and then work out with them how we're going to go forward. Then I'll keep making contact with them to see how they're going because I tend to get the big stuff now. The other stuff, there's a structure in place. The small groups is our key place for discipling people. It's getting people into that and the growth group leaders passes, they're media passes and there's a structure that works from that. Then there's other mechanisms. I have a female pastor who I get involved as well and she's got women who she's trained.

[24:52]
But after an initial assessment of a situation, I don't go on meeting up with them. It's very rare if I do that. For all sorts of reasons can I say, but I'll talk about that later about the place of counseling in ministry, which is important because I used to be, you've got to understand, I used to be a marriage and family counselor. I'm a magnet to this and getting me out of that activity while being concerned for those issues. That's the tension you're forever writing.

[25:23]
Does that partly answer your question? Right. Okay. Now, any other questions? You assumed it. Yes, I know. I know. I look, if I get, if I say, you can usually sense it,

[25:58]
but sometimes you get caught out. You can get a 50-year-old guy in a successful business who actually can't read. There's not too many of them, but they're around and then there's poor reading skills. You really, you've got to be upfront with the question saying, look, there's no shame in me. I'm sorry. I hope you don't mind. I ask this question regularly. You feel comfortable to read at all. I never assume that. But at the same time, if they can, I like to get them to read. Even out, you know, I try to get them going in a forward direction if I can. But if they can't

[26:28]
read, you basically take, you go right back. You give them audio tapes. It's funny, their memories tend to be much better if they're not readers. And so you use the audio stuff a lot more and you pump them with sermons and you pump them with just the Bible actually on audio. Yeah. Because it's amazing. They'll be able to retain it. And then, say, look, we're going to hone in on these view verses. Look, I've not dealt with a lot of people who can't read. I'll be honest with you. So I'm not probably the expert in that area, but I am very sensitive to it. I

[27:03]
always say there's no shame in that. And then that's right. Yeah. Yeah. There is indeed. And then, of course, we've got a near cell program running, two of them for refugees. We use also, my wife's putting a hand up. I'm just been reminded. We give children's Bibles to adults because they get lost in the Bible, right? And they want to get the plot line. I say, look, between you and me, get a kid's Bible. We give them one. We make them available. Because big pictures, not many words I see. So no, I came before Abraham and after creation. That's worth knowing. And so,

[27:39]
that's a helpful thing. Sandy, do you want to say something similar? Translations. Yeah. I think you're a big good news this four days. I thought I heard four days ago. Yep.

[28:22]
I had my good news, Bible from my Catholic school that I hadn't returned. And I had that for a year. And that's what I had. And that's what I needed. And then I went straight from that to NASB,

[29:17]
we did lots of things, right? I went to the markets at 4am in the morning, Flemington markets. Very heroic. Just not very effective. Actually had the effect of me leading from the front on that issue. We let a box drop. We targeted areas and set letters out in different places. That didn't work. We doorknocked. That didn't work all that much. You know, it was it was creating a community where the people had caught the vision and were bringing people. As we always know, 95% of people come to

[29:47]
choose to do relationships, not to advertising. I know a lot more now come through a website. And that's that's really helpful. That's more transfer growth generally. We just find an existing congregation whether you're six, 10 or 50 and having them on board excited about what's happening when you gather, having confidence in the preaching and teaching and relationships. That's the soil. Now that's more an attraction model. But that presupposes people are already excited to share their faith in the worlds that they're in. Yeah.

[30:32]
Sure, excellent question. Yeah. After having a couple of really, sorry, the question was, sorry, I'm not repeating. Just put up your head saying, the question is really about transfer growth and how I managed it. It took me a while to get my head around this. But once I had an experience of someone coming and discovering our view on a theological issue that offended them, but they were emotionally connected to us by that stage. And I had to spend so many hours with them. I thought, this is no good. So I called them my culling nights. I didn't tell people that. I just,

[31:07]
that was my where I would throw out every offensive thing we did as well as capture the vision. Like, sorry, so the big thrust was on. This is what we're on about. If you've come to change, you're going to get frustrated. I said, but let me tell you about this is what we do. This is why we do it. And I didn't avoid the difficult issues. I went for them every kind of issue that a predestination, anything that I think would sort of somehow annoy them later on. And I said, this is where we, you know, I said, look, you can be part of this and not actually hold to these views and some of

[31:38]
these views, you know, I'm not saying some of these views determine whether you're a Christian, but I'm saying this is, this is our teaching position. This is what I'd require of people to teach the Bible. I drew a distinction. And, and so that's saved a whole lot of endless pain and energy. Yeah. That's the advantage of starting with the blank slate. When you inherit a church, of course, it's much harder. I'm not the sort of guy that can turn a ship around. I'm a bit too impatient for that. So I did what appeared to be the hardest thing, but I think actually for me was the easiest thing and that is started from scratch. Yeah. Oh, so on a regular basis, it's

[32:14]
you're basically you're newish night, you know, while other people call their newish nights where you invite people to your home. And so look, I want to tell you about what, what, you know, you're intro to the church life, you know, so for new people to find out. But for me, I was thinking, I'm not going to waste my time because they just, it just, it's endless. You just spend all your time trying to argue a case, theologically with someone who's already convicted about their position. Fine, free country, but, you know, I'm going to have to spend four nights with you trying to get to a point where you're probably not going to change anyway. I'm a bit too pessimistic of

[32:47]
pragmetic. So I want the debate early on, you know, or I want them coming already know what the church is on about and then and not because it hides your mission. You're spending forever trying to do that when I need to get go forward with those who want to go forward. But even that, I mean, I sound like harsh, I'm really quite gentle about it. So, you know, I'm all tea, so I can't, I have to turn the volume down with my wife when I'm married because I say things loud, but I have to pull back and say, look, I'm very actually gentle in that process, but I'm very clear and

[33:18]
uncompromising for their sake as well, because I said, I don't want you to, because I know you'll love us, because I love him, be him, I love the people and you'll love them too. And then you'll discover that what I'm teaching is so offensive, you know, and some issue that you'll then want to spend all your time trying to change me and I think we're not going to go down that road. Yeah. Now, I might move on. These are my weaknesses as I reflect. I didn't spend enough time training leaders. Training and then training leaders. I didn't put proper structures and processes in

[33:48]
place. I'm intuitive, right? Doesn't work. Decentralising ministry, I say it in the middle of the hub, for too long. Too many things went through me. The opposite to my wife, very organised. She's misorganised. I work at my preaching roster for a whole year right in November. Why do I do that? Because she runs the children's programme that mirrors the preaching roster and she required it a year ahead. Whereas I would have been happier turn ahead, right? But because of that,

[34:18]
I'm much more efficient. You know, I've actually enjoyed the better. But I don't decentralise. I don't read enough. I watch too much TV. Who prays enough, but you know, I need to spend more time on my knees and I was too proud to get a mentor. I've only had a mentor for the last four years. Well, shame on me. That's new generation. Everyone's got me. I now require every staff member to get a mentor in their area at least one. Otherwise, they're not staying on staff. It is so because,

[34:49]
you know, your circle of knowledge is restricted. You actually need the wisdom and you get a mentor for someone who's ahead of you. Not a peer relationship. I've got them. I've always been in a preaching group with my brothers where we confess our sins to one another, which by the way is part of the answer to a Scotts original question about keeping you on track. I, you know, we ask questions like, who are you attracted to at the moment? You know, that conversation once and a while comes up because it needs to be confessed if it's happening. But I had peer support.

[35:23]
That was good. I thought that was it, but no, mental, critical. Right. Any questions? Well, no, no, can I correct that? I've started with a regional mindset because ethnic think regionally, we don't think geographically. We travel the other side of Sydney to go, we're hang with our cousins. Okay. So it's about relationships. It's not about space. I've only

[35:55]
learned to become a local church pastor in the last three years. Now that we've got a building built, we're now in an hour suburb really new. It's all that well because we're in a high school that faced a railway station, faced a railway line and was a dead part of Rudy Hill. So we, just to clarify, we've always had a regional ministry. Now we've got a regional and local ministry. Yeah. Yep.

[36:28]
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So I meet, so the place of other pastors in your area within and beyond your denomination. So within our denomination, we have missional areas now. And so we try to help resource each other as much as possible. And we meet up with each other and because I'm sick of everyone reinventing the wheel. I mean, we're the dumbest organisation. Are we not? Where everyone's coming up with a new series,

[37:00]
new logo, new images, new Bible studies and we're not smart in the way we do it. So a few of us actually trying to work off the same model a lot more. That's just more efficient, I think. And we get to work off there. So at that level, we have, we don't have a fritt, a minister's fraternal. That's not functioning in our area. But I've met one on one with a number of them. And we, we occasionally, I think we should need to do it more, pray for them so that we actually are reminding ourselves that we're all in the kingdom of God and not just be denominationally focused.

[37:33]
There's a Pentecostal church that needs to cross the road. We need to be praying for them. We need to pray for the United Church that's across the road as well. They're both a little bit different from us theologically, but they both love the Lord Jesus and both have the gospel in their particular case. Yeah. Okay. I might move on now. When we talk, before we get to the distinctives of Westies ministry, because I've just touched on, but I haven't really focused on it, I always found it helpful to think through what are we having common. So I was going to read Acts 17, but I don't think time really allows me. When am I stopping this session? Okay. So

[38:07]
I'm assuming you know that the great sermon of Paul of the area, Op. 2, the Athenians. And it's interesting how he preaches that sermon. I mean, it starts off with him being distressed by the idolatry and whether it would be more distressed. He's language is very inclusive. He starts with where they're at, the unknown God. He quotes their philosophers, like I quote Bob Dylan and Bruce Springsteen. He's language is inclusive. We should not think.

[38:39]
So it's he's not working with Jew and Gentile, but humanity. But what's interesting is the things all humans have in common. And so I just want to touch on this very briefly that as you do ministry and perhaps you're working with a group that's actually different from you or a little bit these are things we have in common. One God who created heaven and earth. There's a critique on idolatry who sustains, creates and sustains all nations. So all equally dependent on him. He gives

[39:12]
all breath and life. We are all his offspring. It happens through one man Adam. We're all cousins. God determines where people should live with the purpose that they would reach out for him and find him, which is an important reminder to us that behind the immigration policy of men's ease in the 50s was the Lord God determining that people would come to Australia so they could hear the gospel reach out for him and find him. That's a really precious idea for a set MBM. That there's one command for all. God commands all people everywhere to repent. We'll have to stand

[39:45]
before one judge the Lord Jesus Christ and that God has sufficient, given sufficient proof to all people by raising it from the dead. Now within that of course is where all image barriers were all fallen and there is what I'm saying is that's the ground you have to have clear in your head. So whether you're dealing with a Lebanese CEO, a Vietnamese grandmother or a fourth generation unemployed, Anglo housing commission person that's what we all share in common. It's very easy to get intimidated

[40:18]
by differences and you harp on the differences and hang on a moment. These are things we all have in common. You've got to let that frame work drive the ship. Any question on that? I won't labor that anymore just. Yeah.

[40:48]
I'll move on to that right now. Yeah. It's just that you go so quickly to the differences that you just forget the obvious and you just and what it does is that deals with a lot of issues. If your congregation knows it, issues to do with racism as well because that just solves so many questions for us and you know the fact that I might be intimidated to speak to someone else or I'm not equipped to or whatever the issue is. God has commanded all people everywhere to repent.

[41:21]
Everyone's going to stand before the one judge. He's given sufficient proof. How empowering is that? He's given sufficient proof for all people by raising Jesus from the dead. Well, that imposes me. Okay. Now I'm getting some of this stuff from Tim Chester's book. Do we have the book? Oh, here it is. So who's read this book? Right. Read this. You know, because I'm stealing the next three slides are just basically stolen from this. I just read it last night. Remember I said I should read more.

[41:51]
It's called Unchurched. It's Tim Chester. Everything Tim Chester writes is brilliant, right? So he's a great guy. But he just as I was reading it, I was writing things down and it's so identified with my experiences. And then I'd read the next paragraph. The next paragraph would talk about what I just wrote down. But you know, it just feels like someone knows your world. It's called Unreached. It's by Tim Chester. And so he says a number of things just on

[42:23]
reflecting on Christ and culture. God creates culture. Okay. You see, you know, the way in which after Genesis 3, the way in which technology music starts to develop and it's not deemed negative. And we understand with the Tower of Bible, obviously, the judgment on languages and the resistance of people to spread is a judgment. But generally, we'll see later that culture is part

[42:54]
of our humanity living in different parts of the world and a diversity to be celebrated. Sinner, obviously, distorts culture. And so you've got, you know, we're a glorious ruin, part glory, part ruin. And it leads to conflict. The gospel, both affirms and judges all cultures. And that's helpful. There's things in cultures as we see that worth honoring and things that are worth condemning. Paul's not adverse to generalize about the credence. I mean, you notice he quotes one of their dudes who wrote a comment 600 years earlier that all credence are lies,

[43:28]
evil broods and lazy gluttons. You always quote one of their guys. It's just a general rule. You know, don't do it yourself. Let them do it and then say, this is the culture we live in. And 600 years after that was written, you're still there. That's who you're ministering with. And so Jesus stands over culture. The knee-baw frame work is a really helpful framework then corrected by Carson and others. If you know the book, Christ and culture by Don Carson, excellent book. Okay. Christians should affirm. So the gospel does it and we need to do it.

[44:01]
Both are both affirming and then seeking to transform cultures. And the gospel transcends cultures without denying differences. You know, Jesus is Lord, whether you live in the fifth century, Bolivia, whether you live in, you know, 21st century New York, it transcends it all. All cultures, including working class, middle class elements, and that's a nice frame work. They're either good. They along with the gospel. They're either bad and conflict with the gospel or they're neutral. You see, you know, you've got the individualization happening in the West,

[44:34]
which is ungodly and needs to change. But the pursuit of certain social justice issues at the moment are to be honored and affirmed. You know, making poverty history is a good thing. You have Eastern cultures that are much more corporate, extended family. That's to be honored. But those families can be idolatrous as well. So you're forever working at what's good in the culture, what's bad and what's neutral and just for, you know, foods and obvious one. It's hard to take a moral high ground on, you know, Baccholava. You know, it's, they're just neutral.

[45:12]
Now can I say the hardest thing when you're part of the dominant culture is to see yourself as a culture. It's very hard. It's only when you're in a minority that you understand your cultural distinctive, but it's very hard. Can I say if you're Anglo and you're in a country where the majority is still Anglo-Sexon, it's very hard to see yourself as a culture because you're in it. It's kind of creates a blind spot. And so you've got to work really hard because you're the dominant

[45:45]
culture and because of that you have power attached to you, that when you're working with other cultures, you don't want to, in any way, compromise the word, you just need to see things as they are, that you are the one with the power and you are the one who, and that you two have cultural things that need to be critiqued. He talks about social lift. I'm just working through this fairly quickly because it's a bit abstract and I want to get to the concrete stuff. The social lift that he picks up here is not always to be celebrated. Do you know what he means by the social lift that

[46:16]
happens? It's basically, you get someone from a working class background, they get converted, and we had this. We had a whole lot of drugies get converted. Well, they started working because that's what God wants of these people to work. And then they found they had money, and then they learned to forgive and not sleep with each other's girlfriends and their relationships became better and they had a bit more money in the bank and they began to get promotions at church at work because they no longer lied and all of a sudden they were actually inadvertently

[46:47]
becoming middle class in terms of at least status in society. And then they would often move off to the blue mountains or move to another part. Okay, so, you know, there's elements of that that are actually good. It's the fruit of the, God's way is the best way and the benefits of that become self-evident. We saw it. It was beautiful to see. You just want to keep saying, you just don't want to make middle class culture the aspiration if I could put it that way. And then help them to

[47:18]
hold onto a vision of as Paul says, stay where you are and do ministry where you are and don't lose the vision for the people from which you've come from. That's why love Romans 9, how he begins with that, you know, he'd be prepared to be cursed, if it were in any way make it possible for Israel to be saved. Now, you're almost thinking, really? If someone else said that, I wouldn't believe that they meant it, but since it was Paul, he's actually prepared to go to hell in the place of other dogs. And sure, it's Israel and their gods chosen nation, but they were his people, his flesh and

[47:50]
blood. That loyalty to his own, that commitment to his own is you want to make sure you inject into the story for them. And it's not just a celebration isn't a great you. You've got now two cars parked out the front and you own your own home. Social drop is not to be rejected and we're parked, really hell, just the suburb is an old suburb that now was quite multicultural, high percentage of home ownership, but it's parked next to Mount Druitt, which has 65,000 people that originally were from public housing. Now there's a lot more home ownership. It's an old public housing estate,

[48:25]
and it's lots of subdivisions to it. But there was a great ministry done about 30 years ago in Mount Druitt by the Seoul Company, which is Presbyterian movement, and a number of teachers came into the area to minister. And I thought, I've not seen that happen anymore. You know, where people are prepared to actually move geographically for the sake of the gospel as a new church plan starts. Now, of course, the danger is it becomes a little middle class enclave and we're always forever battling that. But really, the Seoul Company did some very, very good work, saw lots of public

[49:00]
housing people converted, and it was the fruit of people, of the social drop. People moving from middle class to working class public housing suburbs, and we need to make more heroes of people. We need to put that on the agenda a lot more. You need to cast a vision if you're in a working class area to get people to come in to help resource your ministry and play a part in that vision. Any questions on that? Right. So he says a few more things. Every, so when you're

[49:31]
dealing with people, okay, so this, we're, we're thinking about working class and public housing. But he says every culture is part of humanity. That's the X-7 team, okay? Every culture has distinguishing features. We're going to see that a little bit later. But it's very, if the big mistake is you'll treat people as a cardboard cut out rather than as an individual. Every person is a unique individual. It's a bit like thinking that when I meet a Roman Catholic, they're going to come one way. And as I wrote in my book, you know, I said you can't pre-suppose that there's one type of Roman

[50:06]
Catholic. You know, there is, there is a breadth of theological understanding. There's nominals, there's active. There's those who are into the green movement. There are those who are neo-Marsis. I mean, there's just, there are those who believe in reincarnation, like some members of my family. And so you can't just go to the person already assuming of what they believe. We know this anyway, but he makes the point and it's very important. You need to, so he says, the gospel is the power of God to say, or who believe. We know that. Treat people as people not

[50:36]
generalizations, but we need general descriptions. And I don't want to labor that. Okay, so we've got the eclectic West. Really, when you look at the West, this is what you've got. Your West, my West is the same. You've got some middle class, you've got working class, you've got public housing, refugees and homeless. Very much right? Is that what your West has? I know different suburbs have more of one than the other. What do you think is to get eclectic, there's no monochrome anything anymore. Nothing's, there's no homogeneous category out there if you work with geography. Education, none primary secondary, TAFE uni,

[51:12]
ethnicity, African-Asian Middle Eastern, other whole, Kitten, Caburra, is it the same in your West? Okay. Oh, Scott's gone. It's not coming up. No, no, that's because it's driven over there. Hey, Scott, you know, drive it, man. Okay, come on, bro. I know I'm boring, yeah, but you're going to get back in here. Oh, yeah, that's a good point. I'm, I'm food's very important in ministry.

[51:47]
Thank you for picking that up, bro. So, look, this is true. You got, you know, family structures that are diverse, single, parent, nuclear, blended, extended. You've got sub-cultures within that. So we've had a ministry to hardcore heavy metal with a bit of hippie, a bit of goffin them. And in fact, we had, it is really at one point, we had 13 of them up the front and one person had led the other to the Lord. It was a, one of the, I wish I'd filmed it. Of course, they're now

[52:19]
social left. They've now moved to the blue mountains, which is kind of white, anglo-saxon, and beautiful, and rather than the hard knack, but they've all kind of, most of them have gone actually now. But, but we actually literally had 13 of them. And one of them, you know, gets converted, the lifestyle changes, impacts the next one, impacts the next one. I've never had that story. We can actually follow the gospel in 13 generations. It was one of the most beautiful things. But that was a little sub-culture that guided up in the door. And it had nothing to do with who I was trying

[52:49]
to reach. Religion, Narnath, he's a kidnapped Christian, well-religions. And then of course, I didn't have work there, which is the most obvious, you know, from labors and factory workers right through to people with PhDs and dentists, you know. So in my church, I literally have the full range. The two guys who do the welcoming on a Sunday morning, one's Joe, he wakes up at two o'clock in the morning to start a furnace in a factory. And the other one is Jason, who's a dentist and a very successful one. And there they are together. One's Maltese, one's Assyrian.

[53:25]
And that's the gospel, isn't it? That's the power of the gospel. Once you think, I'm in a unique world here where people are choosing to hang together from such broad demographic. And when it happens, it is a beautiful thing. Right. So anyway, any comment on that, that's what we're dealing with. Am I standing the obvious here? It's not monochrome. And so that's why, you know, you say some things. Now what you need to do is work out who you are and then, and then, and know yourself.

[53:55]
So again, from this is from Tim Chester, but you know, these would be classic middle class values. Well, my most of us would be kind of middle classish, you know, just to let you know, I mean, I'm a hybrid myself. So if I think about myself, I grew up in Rudy Hill on a market garden growing vegetables. So I worked with my hands growing up. I read the telegraph. What's the equivalent of the telegraph in Melbourne? Sorry? Harold's son. I don't read the herald. I start with a back page

[54:28]
and I go forward and I never read editorials. You know, that's me. You know, so I, that's me. But at the same time, I've written a couple of books. I've got a master's and, you know, and I like thinking abstract and the history of ideas as well. I'm a funny mix. You know, I really connect with working class, but I, there's a lot of me that my parents valued education as opposed to my cousins who all left school at year 10 and went on the farm and now are all millionaires because, you know,

[54:59]
you live on the edge of any city. It gets developed and those 10 acres end up giving you lots of money in about 20 years. I think, Mar, why don't you, why don't you kick me out of school early? I could have made a million. Okay. So you just need to know who you are. You know, we value professionalism, punctuality, programs reflect, dior, diorize schedules. There's a suspicious of enthusiasm and passion amongst middle class. It is generalizations. Remember, it's a limit of generalization. Uni education is a moral good and primary means of self improvement and we assume our leaders need

[55:33]
to be uni educated. Now again, I get that from Tim Chester, but that brings, that brings true for me. Now let's, let's, so we, this is the question about working class. Again, the problem is when you've got an eclectic West, some of this is actually not true for some demographics. So working class values, anti-authoritarian. It's true for some. I don't want to see you in God. I had to tell him that the police are God's agent in society, Restrainer Evil and they're actually good and not bad.

[56:04]
Because his whole experience was negative about cops, right? And those who've been, we have a few people been inside, right? So you've got that anti-authoritarian element with some and giving them a theology of authority that also has within it a fallen recognition. Entitlement mentality and so for those towards the public housing end have more in that that there's a sense where I'm owed because I'm disadvantaged, reputation and respect is critical. The struggle, it's interesting.

[56:39]
I really connected with this, but a lot of working class people who are doing it tough, it's part of their idea, life's a struggle, it stays a struggle. It's always a struggle. And Alan Jones, who's a shock jock from in Sydney, he often used the language of struggle street. Those who are he'd call himself on struggle street too, he's like 50 million or whatever. But it's how they define themselves in a way. Remember all of this is in the unreach book. Victim mentality. Now of

[57:12]
course anyone can have a victim mentality, but that's true where the world is seen as acting on them, not them on the world and high sense of powerlessness and not a strong sense of their own volition and will. And so you talk about guilt and they can be quickly read as an attack. Limited aspirations. See that quote, digs to it, find an average mark plus one. I heard it the other day. A father was telling me about his 50 year old son. He said son, what I want you to do is

[57:47]
find out what the average mark is in your school and get one mark better. Now who he would say that to their children. I know some of you Chinese wouldn't, that's for sure. You guys value your kids to you know 50 hours after class, that's right. Because you value you know Chinese culture very aspirational, you know, get Indian culture. Whereas in other cultures like Islanders, man they're just so laid back. I can't get them. There's no academic trajectory for them at all.

[58:24]
Yeah, okay. Yeah. And can I say the person who said that is a high entrepreneur in our church. He's very entrepreneurial isn't interesting. He himself went to uni and six months before he finished his ingenuity degree pulled out so he could study his own business. So it's a shock. I didn't think but he just didn't value education for him. Future is tied to studying your own business. So he's not public housing. He's not coming from that angle. It's just limited aspirations. He has high aspirations

[58:55]
in one area, but limited academically in another. Because he doesn't see school as the ticket to success. Whereas Indians, Chinese have worked out. That's the ticket to success. So you get your kids studying like mad. Yeah. That's a very good point. It's you've got to any of these issues,

[59:26]
you've got to reframe and think what is how does the gospel impact them? So that's right. So helping them to learn to be the best they can be that excelling. Not out of a perfectionistic mindset, but out of the fact that God has given us his best and these are God's people. We want to give them the best. That's a new road that they go down that you actually wanting to actually help them in. Yeah. And the irony is that person will give his best at church. That will never be the problem. He has given more financially energy. And in fact, interestingly, that person has been involved in our

[1:00:05]
men's breakfast ministry. And he is meticulous about how it's to be done. I've never seen anyone. The quality of food is extraordinary. It's presented beautifully. But not it's limited. See how it's limited aspiration. High aspiration. One area. High expector. In another area. You know, just exactly right. Yeah. And so what you're trying to do is forever as it pertains to the things of God,

[1:00:35]
get them to think Christianly about it. Really? That's why we teach from the Bible. And that's why the gospel allows it to heart of that. Sandy, do you want to say something on that? Did you put up your hand? You saw people hanging around coming back here for bread and fries and fries and fries with kindness and loyalty and счshine on God's להすよね and holding hands at church my brothers believe they should accept God with expressed Into joy with nosotros's intentions so its translatorship could sense safety for Jesus Christ as God integrates His unitedanny as His coalition has stated before That Jesus Christ Jesus Christ received His widespread blessings from individuals who connected His Hands through Their Hands through Spirit One Bible making Him shine upon Him through Spirit One Bible어 He touched worse than Him through Spirit One Bible covenant makes Him shine upon Him through Spirit One Bible covenant Christ canal protecting Him through Spirit One Bible covenant Spirit One Bible covenant Yet Of Life Fatherlers speaks painfully through Spirit One Bible covenant Mitch Sit possibly Tor 먼 эту Ling glitch Tim mai

[1:01:12]
So, the work is not easy to have a job. Right, yeah. That's a good example. Just make sure there's more play. So, really, I found this help with me.

[1:01:44]
How can I identify with that? People are your assets. I found this help with loyalty high value. They work if you're not forming your against me. It's very hard, especially when you're dealing with it. They want you to side all the time. Now, this can be with anyone, but it's particularly with certain demographics. And so, I've had to teach the congregation the only person you side with is Jesus in any conversation. And that's what you need to tell people when they want to pull you in two different directions. Whether it's a marital issue or two friends having a party about something.

[1:02:14]
You need to crack that framework for them. That it's not for you or against you. Actually, any Jesus has the right to do that. What would Jesus have me say to this person? So, when I'm with you, this is what I'm going to say to you. When I'm with them, this is what I'm going to say to them. So, people are critical. They are their assets. Not financial assets because they don't have a lot in many cases. Now, remember, the West has got successful entrepreneurs, trade-ies. So, I'm talking about some not all.

[1:02:46]
But that rings true. They're very loyal to me. I mean, really, it's sometimes… I'm saying, you know, we're talking about this. Sometimes we have guest breaches who have middle-class, sarcastic humour. Which, by the way, you've got a flush out of your system and out of your church. Sarcasm is the death to ministry in the West. And every time you sense it, go for it. The only time you have sarcasm is when it's idols. Okay. But never about people. Anyway, that's a side point.

[1:03:16]
But you've got no idea how important that point is. Anyway, so you get the… You know, some of my mates who are Aussies and they're coming in and they're paying out on me up the front right. Well, forget it. The congregation like this is doing. I said, I said to my garage, I said, please, do not make fun of my weight up the front. I've been on light and these, I lost a few kilos. I was a little bit heavier before. Now, and he would just do it. And it wasn't offensive to me. But I had people. They were so furious with him that I said, they won't hear you preach if you go for me.

[1:03:50]
Because they just love me. They can stir… They can even have humor with me. But they're very loyal to me. Because loyalty is a high value, you know. Which is kind of nice, really. It's a nice job. I've always loved him, you know. Non-abstract concrete think is this really? Knowledge is organized in relational ways. Making connections with existing learning. That's a very helpful phrase when I read it in the book. So that you've got to start with what they know and build on it.

[1:04:20]
Now, you may think that's so anyway, but it's that much more. They can't stay in the abstract that long. They learn with rather than from people. And so that's a whole apprenticeship model. Opinions of friends tend to have a greater opinion of authority. So they come to me. They often say, because they demy on the inside. Is that what do you think are about this? Now, I know that I'm their pastor, but I think it's partly because I've got a close relationship with them. And that they do that. They're interesting. If I had any information by asking someone rather than looking up in a book.

[1:04:50]
Although, isn't that every guy? I mean, who reads the instructions? I thought that was a male thing. I never read instructions. I always find it. See, I can see myself being actually a more working class in some ways, because I will always phone someone rather than find out reading the instructions. I just, it's not me. What was that? Mine too. Mine too. And so part of this actually is male female, I think.

[1:05:21]
Failure in formal education makes interactive Bible studies threatening. So we do Bible studies unapologetically, but we've had some Bible study leaders, who without realizing I've really crushed people. And so I've got to work with them to be very gentle in the whole questioning process. I think the Swedish method of Bible studies a very good one. You can Google it, basically, four questions. One of the questions is, what don't you understand? That's brilliant, because that makes not knowing a success.

[1:05:54]
That makes sense. Why don't you say to someone, you know, what don't you understand in this text? And they give you, say, I don't understand what this means. Excellent. Right, good question. And you're forever framing it. Often, if they come from Orthodox Catholic backgrounds, they've got some right answers in their head, right? Because they've got a Christian framework, but they're not getting it from the text. And so the transitioning from your apps, what you're saying is a really important truth. But it's probably not what the text is saying. Can you just go back to the verse?

[1:06:24]
So I am still trying to take, I am teaching comprehension skills, but the transitioning from the husband you've done very gently and respectfully. Because respect is critical. You don't, don't ever want to make them feel dumb. It's like a really high value. If I have a smell paternalism, I just go for it. So interesting that they prefer sermons to Bible studies often. This is all from Chester, but I'm identifying. And you know what, say to why? That's why I do my learning. Yeah.

[1:06:54]
I think it's, you're right, because I thought there was a bit of a paradox between the two. I think it's like the apprenticeship model. So you're telling stories, you're reflecting on what you've learned and they're learning. It's almost how you do the Bible studies, you know. He actually such an example of, even when you ask questions, like we asked the dog, not to question a real lot, you know, if you were to die tonight and stand before Jesus and he was so white,

[1:07:26]
religion, what would you say? But before I get to that question, it's any, how do you do it? You've got a lovely way of doing it. What's the question about, can you tell me your faith story? That's, that's got a softer edge to it. Right, what is it? Bad Jesus, you love. Yeah, yeah.

[1:07:56]
Okay. And sometimes it's tones and intonations as much as anything, because questioning, it's interesting, I've got a guy who's actually one of our missionaries. And asking questions, he, can you just, when a middle class and a work class get together, the middle class person will walk away and think, well, they didn't really want to know anything about me. They didn't ask me any questions about my life. And the work and class person will say, wow, that person was so, such a busy body, kept asking me, kept, you know, and like,

[1:08:26]
as a sort of missing out, and when I read, I thought, and reminded of Jeff, his, his, his, Maltese and gone to Maltha. And he said, he found that, and he's working with a lot of working class people. He just made sense of that experience that he said, people found interrogated by questions. Even if they were just curious, I said, oh, you know, where do you live? That it's kind of basic general questions. He said, almost, you're coming on, bit too strong,

[1:08:56]
that this is a culture, and that's the next point. I will hear it a little bit later. It's a question of storytelling, but we'll get to that later, because I've jumped the gun here. Non-diarrhised relational styles. I'll tell you, in my extended family, you don't invite people over to your place. You go uninvited to their place. That's how you love them. I'm talking about, that's a quote from me in my world, but it's just non-diarrhised. It's the, come over to my place for a meal thing.

[1:09:26]
It's a very middle class thing, not necessarily a working class thing. Though it is, with certain efforts, it's a very important thing. It's a very important thing. It's a very important thing. It's a very important thing. It's a very important thing. It's a very important thing. Though it is, with certain ethnic groups. So that's the problem I'm saying things here, and then I want to qualify everything. Working class see the world in terms of local settings. It's much more defined and small.

[1:09:57]
Middle class can see the world in terms of national settings. Third question is, if it's working class people, did you have enough? So it's about volume. That's why all you can eat places do really well out in the West. But you know, you get to a shmante restaurant. You need a magnifying glass to see the food. I'm nothing gets up by nose more than that. But I think maybe it's a male thing too. Now he goes to talk about generational poverty. This stuff now is taken from Rudy Payne,

[1:10:29]
Ruby Payne, American Educationalist. And I cut and paste a bit here. But see if some of this stuff's not true. Now this is generational poverty. Three or four generations of poor. But I'm thinking working class identify with this. Background noise TV is always on. Sitting in front of the TV to eat. It's always on. Like it's always, well that's exactly how I grew up. Importance of person that the ability to entertain tells stories. I've got cousins, you know, I'm picking up Rita Sandy. You know, she holds court as she tells stories.

[1:10:59]
And they hover around her. It's often a common thing. Storytelling. Usually an a sense of humor is a high value. It's your kind of currency. Significance of entertainment becomes important. And certain types of entertainment. That's where you get your reference. The same with me. Like movies are very important for me to rest. Importance of relationships. Survival depends on it. People having favorites becomes a high value. They tend to be more matriarchal. I think that's actually my experience as well.

[1:11:30]
There's a survival orientation. So again, I'm getting this from Tim Chester, quoting Ruby Payne. Discussions, not on academic topics, but on relationships. So that's what I mean. You can't abstract things too long before they get bored. They don't want to discuss the whole issue of the homosexual issue. They want to talk about my sister who's come out. You know, that's the issue. Not the abstract idea. You do a job for money. It's not about career. There's no notion of careers. There's a negative orientation.

[1:12:01]
This is important. Failure at anything is the source of stories and numerous belittling comments. That's why I'm a little bit late. I talk about the importance of encouragement. And the reason why that's important is it keeps people in their place. Because if you kind of climb up, then you're walking away from a set of relationships. And I felt that. I've got my cousins who I love. And I'm almost only now reconnecting with them. Because our parents valued education and our worlds became further and further apart.

[1:12:33]
And then just the wedge was greater. And there was kind of resistance to that from them as well. And you often get a story and say, I've got one cousin who was talking about my niece. Who's a doctor who said, you know, but she can't grow any tomatoes. She's a daughter. She's married to a third.

[1:13:03]
She can't grow any tomato. There was a sense where it's that insecurity then played itself out and wanting to put down the other person to feel like I'm not inadequate. Now the gospel does is say, gets the doctor and the uneducated farmer together and say, you know, these things don't matter what matters is Jesus. And that's the beauty of it when the gospel comes to town, things change. Discipline, that's interesting. It's a punishment is about penance and forgiveness. It's not about change.

[1:13:33]
So it's not about helping the person learn. It's about you're done the wrong thing, you're out. And then we'll forgive you back in. I think that's true. Belief in fate. Choices seldom considered. That's why I think astrology is really popular in the West in particular. While middle class people believe the future can be changed with good choices. I'm saying public housing and lower working class tend to see themselves more powerless, more at the mercy of fact is outside of them. Polarized thinking, options are hardly every examine.

[1:14:04]
Everything's polarized. It's either one way or the other. I quit. I can't do it, you know. This is my own thing. Dramatic responses to crisis. In fact, some people almost live in a serial TV soap opera, you know. They almost, they can't live. They don't know. There's a thick of some people. They don't know what a normal life is outside of crisis. They literally jump from one to the other. Sometimes self-created. Sometimes they go looking for it. I don't know. There's almost, because it's about relationships. It's like you're in a days of our lives episode.

[1:14:36]
It never ends. And then part of it's fed by overreactions. Because someone does something. It's all about loyalty. And then I come in, usually passionate about something. You know, instead of a gentle answer turning away, Roth. It starts a world war three. And just, it just explodes. I want to do the… Yeah. And so you're empathizing, but you're getting, you're getting into things. Okay. Let's think question about this.

[1:15:07]
Only the present matters. Only the present time matters. Lives lived in the moment. It tends not to consider future ramifications. Being proactive setting goals, planning ahead, not strong. For middle class people, the future is most important. It's aspirational. Because there's a world in which there's confidence that if I work at something, I will achieve. There's already been victories early on in their life to feed optimism.

[1:15:37]
Whereas if you think there's no optimism, there's no future, you're already giving up. So I often compare, I talk about, I touch on this later, about reading a book for someone who's not comfortable in reading, is like me lifting the hood of an engine. I've already told myself, I'm not going to fix this. You just think, I don't know for those of us who aren't good at fixing cars. Think about how you think about that process when you look at the hood of an engine, there's something wrong.

[1:16:07]
You don't even bother. You just go and send it to someone. Because I've tried it so many times in the past and I've had so many failures that that's what opening a book can be for some people. There's little delay gratification and living in the fast food, fox, stilt. There's actually a lot of cash around, but it's spent quickly. It's not saved. So there are generalizations. They fit some cultures more than others. But I'm telling you, when I was reading, I'm thinking, yep, yep, yep, I can identify.

[1:16:40]
Any questions on that? I haven't really got to the solution. Okay, so next, it's 12. So we need to finish now and we'll look at how we respond to these things. But I don't know about you. Just reading, going through that really helped me put things in order. Sometimes you get that intuitive thing and then you think, are they living the moment right? So what it means is when I'm teaching people the Bible now and I've got that category in my mind, I want to think more about how the Bible gets us to look back, look in the present, look in the future. You know, I've got now, I can speak to things theologically.

[1:17:13]
I can tie the Bible in right where some values are held. By the way, I need to do that with middle class issues as well. And not to say, for those of you who are working class out here in the office, you don't do it that way. It's that, for those of you who kind of live in the moment, you speak about the issue, not the person.