[0:10]
In these episodes of the Reach Australia podcast, I talk with Australian Christian leaders about what's shaping their leadership, the issues they're working through within their teams and the regular practices that underpin their leadership. Today's episode, I get to talk with Cathy Hurd. Now, I've been working with Cathy the last five years as part of the Geneva Push Network. She was the first, I guess, Wives Network director that we set up together about five years ago. She's also the coaching director, one of our coaching directors for the Geneva Push Network.

[0:42]
And so she trains and equips a bunch of men and women for coaching across the network, but also particularly works with our Wives coaches as well. ago planted a church on the central coast with her husband Andrew. She's got four kids and four grandkids and they always just seem to be increasing as well. Yes, yes. It's not about you. You know what? And it doesn't matter. It needed to be about me when I was so insecure and I needed the admiration. I needed the validation. You know what? If I can get rid of that need, if I can love

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what God has given me in Jesus and get the security there, then I will be in a better place to do leading for Jesus and purely for people. G'day, I'm Scott Sanders, and you've tuned in to the Reach Australia podcast, a podcast that's all about healthy, evangelistic, multiplying churches.

[1:49]
Well, Kathy, it is great to have you on Leadership. I've been looking forward to having this conversation with you. You have been part of EV Church from the beginning with your husband, Andrew. You've got four kids, four grandkids, and you have a number of ministry roles at EV Church. And also, we've worked together closely the last six years at Geneva Push with your role as the Wives Network Director as well. So it's great to get a chance to hear your thoughts on leadership. So welcome.

[2:20]
Thank you very much, Scott. It's good to be here. And hello, everyone. Now, I want to sort of kick off and just what were family dinners like growing up for you? So tell us about your family. You know, funnily enough, just two days ago, it's my mother's 80th and someone had sent her a photograph of a family dinner when they were visiting us in Hong Kong. So yeah, family for us uh growing up we lived in hong kong um in the middle of an estate choy hung estate which i

[2:52]
actually didn't know it's kind of in my memory choy hung estate and just before i was talking to you i thought i might look it up so i looked it up on google you can find it on google apparently it's a tourism hotspot and has it changed has it changed a lot or no it hasn't changed it it choy hung and i didn't know this means rainbow and it's because all the flats are painted rainbow colors Okay. There's something like, I think, 40,000 people living in these tiny little units with those sticks for their washing. We were living on top of a school called St Benedict's School.

[3:26]
You can still visit it. And in fact, I did visit it when I turned 40. And we lived on the top, eating our dinner with all our windows and 40,000 people looking in and air conditioners on. And that was my growing up. From about seven to 16, I was. So you've got a, you're one of four, is that right? So you're sort of lively and wild or? Yes. Yes. Although in this photograph, we all look, my mother looked at it and said, oh, you all look really well behaved.

[3:57]
So I think, yeah, I can't remember to be honest what they were like. So you grew up in a, you grew up in a mission. You're a missionary kid. You grew up in a ministry family. My parents are missionaries over there. Yes. So I want to then sort of bring us now to family dinners around the herd house. What did dinners look like sort of 25 years ago when you were planting a church? Yeah, my goodness. Dinners look like me with a grumpy face, I'm sorry. Grumpy face because at the end of a long day, looking after four children.

[4:28]
By dinner and cooking dinner, I just had it. I just wanted to get it out and sit down. Whereas for Andrew, it was kind of renewing time with my family moment. and want to ask lots of questions. Actually, it was just as well. He would ask lots of questions of the kids and get them talking and I would be able to sit with my grumpy face quiet at the other end of the table. That's not good, is it? Now, family dinners now are a bit… I'm a bit more with it. Kids are grown up. They're married, actually.

[4:59]
All four of them are married. And so family dinners are 12 of us sitting around with four grandchildren. One of them can't sit yet. She's still a baby. I'm loving it. I'm actually loving this stage. Having your kids as adults, it enriches your life, actually, all the stuff they can bring into the family now that they're adults and they're husbands and wives. I love it. It's a lot of fun. More than I thought. I just didn't know it would be like this. Well, I'm glad it's not grumpy Kathy on the table. That's good. Can you tell us a bit

[5:30]
about your ministry role? I guess over the last few years, because I know it's changed just recently this season and you'll probably talk about that in a moment but what what has been your ministry life at ev church and then also geneva push yeah um so yeah it does change as it does for most women the the seasons of life um context is i'm married to andrew who's the senior pastor of our church we started our church and i've always had a volunteer role and the amount i've taken on has changed depending on the season i'm in um used to look after the women's groups

[6:05]
That was one or two groups. Now, I'm still in that role, but it's now 20 groups and over 200 women. And I've kept in that role, but I think I've kept fresh in it by changing the kind of responsibilities I've had in the role and bringing on more people to help me in it so that I'm working with a team rather than back in the early days, it was all just me. Quite a lonely role. These days, I'm part of a team. I've got people with higher level of responsibilities under me and I love working with them and it's shared.

[6:42]
There's a partnership in the gospel kind of feeling, so I'm enjoying that. For quite a long time too, I worked in our ministry role, which is part of bringing people, interviewing them, finding out their gifts and helping place them into a role in church that served the body, plus worked for them in terms of their capacity and their giftings. I love doing that. I've been doing that for about 10 years. But I think I, and I've had other roles too. So there's about three or four other things I do in our church as a volunteer.

[7:15]
But I think I was just spread too thin. I felt quite burnt out the last couple of years. And I knew there was a bit of a red flag. the red flag for me was feeling cranky every time I sat down to work and feeling annoyed that I couldn't get out of it and feeling now I mean as I say this I feel like um see I'm a volunteer so I think I've got some freedoms that other people don't have if they feel a bit trapped in the busyness of life sometimes you just have to get on and do it and I think often I have so I kept

[7:50]
saying to myself what's wrong with me why can't I just get on and do it but but I think I had overstretched my capacity and it was so so when you you you've got sort of four different ministry roles you're kind of doing a gap fill i mean that's often how i don't i don't i don't like to describe a church planting wife as a gap filler but often that's how they're conceived of by their church planter husband they just they're there to fill in the gaps in the ministry that you know to be fair andrew kept telling me not to take on things so he wasn't i was more the one jumping in

[8:22]
and going, oh, I could do that. I could do that. Oh, I'd love to do that. So he was the one reigning me back. But you just started adding extra things. I'm not actually doing one thing really well or two things really well. Yeah, yeah. I think, I mean, we're talking the last two years. So it's evolved. But I was probably in eight things if I wrote them down. Three of them were major things and a few minor things. and they were all things on their own that I loved doing,

[8:53]
but put them together and I was hating it. And that was the red flag. Like, what is going on? I want to serve the Lord. What is wrong with me? And it is hard to know if it's just, am I just tired? Do I just need a holiday? Am I just being slack? Like it is hard to sometimes read what's going on. So how did you read what was going on? Yeah, that's good. um i it's not a science it's so hard i think it's trial and error so covid hit everything got cancelled um i just felt this enormous sense of relief whilst everyone around

[9:29]
me was going oh this is so sad we can't do this together we can't attend this and i'm thinking i am so glad i don't have to do these and um and so it's kind of like saying to me look you know in my head, you must have been doing too much. There's something wrong. But at the same time, wanting to just keep those convictions going that life is short, I want to maximise the opportunity I've got to do the work of the Lord. I wanted to keep that sharp, not let go of that.

[10:00]
But I knew I was hurting. So just weighing that up was really difficult. But COVID gave me a chance to work out, there was probably one ministry someone was in place, could take on my role. It would run with no hole left. As I kept picturing myself not doing it, I mostly felt relieved. There was a loss, but mostly I felt relieved. I kept picturing myself doing it. And I thought maybe that's the one. And I rang, it was actually Rhett. I rang Rhett and said, Rhett, and he said, I think I know

[10:36]
I've been watching you. So he had already had a sense of it, which was interesting. and I put down the phone and I just felt better and I've been practicing only doing the roles like sticking with the roles and not taking on more I've been practicing that which is is that a hard thing for you to say do you find it hard to say no yeah yeah every time I hear of a need not every need but there are some needs where it is something I think I could do that I would love

[11:09]
to do that. And so this is what I'm learning. You know what? There are so many wonderful, good things that you like that any one person can like doing. And the fact is you cannot do them all. And I think, I think I, I think I hadn't realized that. You're the, you're the, you're one of our coaching directors. And so you're involved heavily in, in not only the training of our coaches, but also really driving the women's

[11:39]
push network yeah do you have a coach yourself i like oh i should you know i don't and um i when i'm training a person one of the things is i ask them to practice on me and so quickly i go into something that's deep and worrying me and i'll be teary and they'll be practicing their coaching on me probably wondering what on earth have i got my

[12:10]
into and and i will find it helpful i will find it helpful it will actually change my life and i will think to myself afterwards why have i not got someone doing it okay i'm just making a note i'm just but but it is interesting you you spend a lot of your ministry life pouring pouring out is that is that something that you were modeled by your parents um is that something that is driven by Is that something you've grown in as you've moved from grumpy mum

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to happy mum now? Yes, I think both my parents work very hard. And they're both healthy and can do a lot, have high capacity. They're both very driven in different ways to each other. I think then I was quite influenced by Philip Jensen when I met Andrew introduced to New South Wales Uni and that whole ministry and I learned so much about the Bible,

[13:15]
more than I had in my home church and just realized things got put together for me that never had before. And I really admired Philip's work ethic, although at the same time was a bit intimidated by it. And then Andrew, my own husband has an incredible. And so I think I'm surrounded by this and then I'm reading about Jesus in the Bible and Paul who says follow my example and I have thought until recently I read again his chapter where he he says you know I've worked

[13:49]
harder than all of them this this and this I've always concentrated on the this this and this like I've done this I've been beaten up here I've been and thought yeah come on Kathy keep pushing but it was only a few weeks ago I read that I've worked harder than all of them and thought oh the all of them all of them didn't work like Paul yeah yeah and it really struck me I thought oh I'm the all of them which is okay which is okay and and he didn't say and they should have

[14:20]
now maybe the all of them no they were the other apostles yeah and they their esteem so I always your capacity. I've spent my life working around women's abilities and capacities, limited abilities and capacities. And as a leader worked very hard to not push them. And yet in that space, stepped in and taken on heaps to enable them not to have to.

[14:52]
And I do think that's a little bit the role of the leader anyway. but it was my turn I think to go you know what I've got an I'm being so unrealistic about my capacity and it's hurting let's um let's take something off and I'm actually finding look I'm still busy but I'm actually getting to the end of my to-do list now and again whereas I never was before who are you currently learning from um well philip andrew jesus and paul but not in that order

[15:30]
yep um look i i think i'm learning from so many different places um it's a thing i'll read here It's a book. It's a gospel coalition article. It's a reach talk. It's a person I work with at church. I'm learning all the time from people around me all the time. Like, I think that's, I think that's how I'm learning. That is how we learn, isn't it? We're talking to people we're learning and then personal experience. That's too hard. That was just right. That's not enough. Like trying to measure and self reflect.

[16:07]
But knowing that your heart and your own perception can always be deceived and distorted. And so just trying to keep, how are we ever truly objective? I don't know. But anyway, all those things. So it sounds like you don't have a regular sort of system that you go to. You don't always have a couple of books on the go. You're not in a coaching relationship. but you're involved on the job working with a whole bunch of people and your natural tendency

[16:38]
is just to sort of take in take in information reflect with people reflect with Andrew reflect with ministry leaders on the ground and process it I think that's right and then I would say add into that um you know obviously regular bible reading and sermons teach me a lot all the time but also the meetings that I'm part of the meetings either that I'm running myself or that I am in and a leader is running them and I'm part of that. I'm learning at those places. And you're not a… It's interesting. I've watched you at conferences and events.

[17:09]
You're not afraid to ask the hard question or to make the comment and start the discussion going. You don't… You're courageous. You've got a boldness there in your questioning. Yeah, maybe I need to be… I have an internal monologue. Don't talk, Catherine. Keep quiet. That's what it looks like on the inside. Okay. I think it's great.

[17:39]
I've watched you at numerous conferences. It can sometimes be a nuisance. You're excellent in team meetings as well by asking that hard question that others don't want to ask or saying the challenging thing, which I think is a really helpful aspect. So you have been a part of a number of ministry teams at EV Church, but your current leadership team, what are you focusing on? And maybe you are involved in a number of ministries. I guess I want to think about EV Church and more good. Yeah, okay. So the ministry that I'm particularly involved with is all the growth groups,

[18:16]
Bible study groups, and I'm looking after four leaders in particular who look after eight groups each roundabout. And with 10 to 12 or 14 in some cases members, they're all looking after if you like many churches in terms of size so I I'm I meet with them on a regular basis so our big thing at the moment is yeah so the context we're in for those listening is COVID and it's been a trajectory of slowly opening things up but on the horizon it's

[18:49]
looking like that may be reversed and so it's this horrible unknown that we're in the middle of and it's been a tiring year of unknowns, I think. So we made changes to all go to Zoom. Now, the issues for us there, because things aren't physical, physically gathering, structures not in place, there's less accountability. And it's like, you know, when the tide goes back, what's left? Someone said that analogy is when the tide goes back, you can see who's swimming naked which i didn't realize when the tide goes back i'm kind of when structures are missing

[19:26]
who when structures have gone who's gone missing who's ducked and weaved and it's been the time to slip away spiritually speaking and i'm getting the sense that a number of passes are now afflicting thinking we thought we thought people were going to come back you know positive but now actually feeling like we're losing we're losing more people the longer this goes so i think for us it's behind is kind of the the mantra that we keep saying to each other don't leave any man woman or child behind so it's lots more work in personally following up people that we don't think we're

[19:58]
seeing either in a zoom meeting or we don't think people are bumping into like where are they yeah and what's going on for them and so it's a bit more work um finding those people and looking after them well so that's our big thing at the moment our second big thing right now is that we are going to move back on the premises physically, but that's got a whole lot of challenges, child mining and stuff. So I've just spent the last two weeks trying to get things ready for that and mindful that we're going to spend two weeks.

[20:28]
I've spent two weeks of work getting it all ready with them. It's not just me, with them. So constant meetings. But that may just get shut down. In a week, we may get told that's not going to happen. And I think it's been a year where people all over the place done that's exhausting so patience like are you are you a patient are you a patient person no no or is that is that a spiritual gift that you have okay i'll show you where i'm patient so uh last week i had a text two leaders wanted to pull out

[21:05]
they they were over it they've not had a good turnout on their zoom meetings yeah i'm patient in the sense of let's not panic um prayed about it with them and i'm slowly with the other person who looks over them going around each member to just talk through where they're at and what does next term look like for them and can they commit and do we have a viable group so i'm patient in that sense of just slowly working at things i'm not patient if

[21:42]
I want something to happen and something's blocking me. I'm trying to give an example. I can't think of one except for a very materialistic one. If I want a dress and it's in the shop and it's on sale, I will get in the car now and go and buy it. So you're patient with people, you're not patient with things. Oh, no, no. I just can't think of another example. No, I'm fairly impatient. um and andrew's going let's wait let's wait i hate that i'm like no i've got the energy now

[22:17]
i'm going to go and buy the paint now yeah i'm i'm not good at and waiting is sometimes better yeah i just think i think this this period there there is a sense of um we've got you've got to be patient you've got to let things roll out which is which is hard when you're when you're an active yeah you're active in your in your in your mindset you know you want to get get things done I'm with you. I don't have that ability to sort of sit and let things happen around me. I want to, I want to, you know, sort of move them and get them started. So what are the two things that you,

[22:49]
two or three things that you do regularly then that benefit your leadership and you as a leader? So, yeah. I think, I mean, besides the obvious like exercise and I, I enjoy watercolor painting and I'm trying to do a bit more of that. I love getting out actually. I must, that is a big thing. Actually, this is one of the things I found that was burning me out. Each day was so long and so caught up with meetings and doing work. It would start early and go late with no time to actually get outside.

[23:22]
So when you say get out, what do you mean actually just stopping, pausing? Yeah, either go for a run or go down and swim at the beach. I would look at people who'd gone for a morning surf and feel angry that I couldn't. um so so that's when i had the and i did actually having said that i did manage to do a little bit of exercise but anyway not as much as i wanted and that's where i was going is there something like should i just push myself like andrew doesn't do as much as i would like to do he seems to cope

[23:53]
not doing it and then i just look at it go i just don't want to do that i can't but then then you go but yes you can for the gospel you can ah that's but again it's understanding capacity it's so I think so and I'm not sure at the same time but I so yeah what keeps me sharp sorry this is a very long answer getting out for part of the day each day has been extremely helpful yeah seeing my family my grandkids at least once in the week is extremely helpful okay so that's just

[24:27]
on the maintenance side but in terms of work one of the key things I have found is is meetings but not too many meetings the right number of meetings meetings where i'm met with sharpens my vision and gives me accountability and means the work i do matters yes yeah that's that's been very valuable of keeping me sharp yeah so they so they're the meetings have to be intentional uh and drive well-run meetings oh oh that's exactly right in fact big note there if it's a meeting where i feel

[25:00]
nothing much has happened but a lot of pointless talk that is so frustrating that is a waste of time and that that will kill me quicker than anything else i think most people will feel that so do you do you manage this then in your calendar you you sort of look at your week and go well i i realized i've got too many meetings i've got to pull some of those out or is it just a yeah one week i've got lots of meetings the next week i'm not i'm gonna so you manage it that way how do you how do you be intentional yeah yeah and i'll just i'll go back to that question because

[25:30]
Meetings that I run also matter and keep me sharp. So it's interesting, meetings that are run for me and I'm in them keep me sharp, but meetings that I have to run for others. So these four leaders that I talked to you about, I had down to meet with them once a term. That didn't keep me sharp and it didn't keep them sharp, which was interesting. The work just kind of just slowly went along and we dropped balls. I changed it to fortnightly. So from once a term to fortnightly, wow, we have lifted our game.

[26:03]
We are all on things. And, you know, I'll think, gosh, what am I doing at this meeting? And I'll write down some things, start the conversation, and all these actions come out. So the right number of meetings is good. But yes, when I was feeling like I was doing too much, a lot of it was because each thing has to have a meeting attached to it. And so my calendar was just going from one meeting to another. no time to actually do the work. And some of the meetings, you know, they could be two hours long.

[26:34]
And if I distilled what seemed to me to actually matter, it would be 10 minutes worth. Now that's being harsh, but that was the mindset I was in. I was like, I can't. And so some of that frustration was coming out of my own just tiredness and overwork, I think. Yeah. So by cutting down less meetings but also having the right number of meetings to make the ministry work well is important some don't need as much but some because of the high level of responsibility you've got

[27:10]
might need more so it's helpful it's helpful as well that to to realize that you that they change and shift depending on where the ministry is at as well so so quarterly might have worked two years of two years ago when you originally set that pattern up but true when everything was working Yes, in fact, and they were all old hands at it where I've got a reasonably new team, a great team, but they're reasonably new. So yeah, fortnightly is necessary. So building in that evaluation in your meeting, which is again, another one of your strengths.

[27:41]
You're also very helpful in providing feedback on how to make your meetings better. So that's one of the regular currencies is, you know, that if you've got Cathy in any meetings is you'll know if the meeting has been good or not. Get an email and a follow-up email which will say, oh, you know, we could have done that a little bit better, which is good. You always do it gently and teach well, which is nice. But I think to actually build in that evaluation yourself,

[28:12]
how did that meeting go? Yes, yes. And it does keep me sharp. Yeah, so I'm meeting and it helps me think, what does this ministry need? And then how do I get these guys to feel it like I feel it? What do I say to them? How do I get them to own it like I'm owning it? And then how do I explain things well so that they are now well equipped to actually go and do the actions that we've talked about? So, yeah, it keeps me sharp to have to lead others in that way.

[28:43]
That's good. So you've talked a bit about your grandkids and there's obviously been, you know, changes over the last few years. I think in the last sort of three months you've had your final wedding. So you've sort of kicked out your last child. wedding from the house what does leadership look like in your home okay it will so obviously I married to a husband so he's he's got the role ultimate role of leadership

[29:15]
but submission to leadership takes leadership it's a thing that I need to choose to do and so it does take thought and care and initiative it takes self-leading to take on that responsibility I think it is I think you can say it's a responsibility of submission in our house and to know what it looks like to know how it should look in in our unique relationship to know what's needed in the moment takes leadership so I think that's

[29:48]
leadership in my home for me yeah and so i mean it's obviously easy for you because you've got a fantastic husband in andrew um you know but but i mean just using the example of the painting of the house that you just used a second yes where you you want to go out and buy the paint get it done and andrew's at no you know we can yes um i mean i just want to give it a live example i guess that's good uh that's uh again again especially for you because you can you can go and get the

[30:18]
You can do it under your own time. Yeah, well, I need, and those kind of things, I need to hear carefully, you know, why not? Like what's the reasons? And then I need to say mine carefully, reasons I'd like to. And then is there a way forward? That doesn't mean we're trampling on each other's needs or reasons for doing things. Is there a way forward? And sometimes I do that well. Sometimes, actually, I've learnt this. Sometimes I'll do it really badly,

[30:48]
end up in a mess but something that I've started doing which is being good is walk out the door come back in and say can we just do that again yep and it's great it's like yeah let's not go over that terrible argument that went nowhere and go you said no you said it goes nowhere let's just start again like it never happened and say it the the way we know we should have which is you've got

[31:18]
have a short memory yeah yeah by doing it again it's almost like i know i stuffed that up so badly can we which yeah it is it's having the other person forgive you and go okay let's try that again i'm interested your kids i mean your kids have and now you know they i wouldn't say they're growing up because i know you know they're still they're growing up and you're always growing up what are they 20 21 to 27 i think 20 so so even just there's been a shift hasn't there as your

[31:48]
married moved out of home yeah what does that transition look like for for a mum where you are you know really actively involved in seeing your kids mistakes and also seeing you know they're they're not they're not mistakes but also now and having a lot of authority i guess responsibility and authority and control over that but now as they you know they move out of home you got less less influence i guess less authority but more you know more influence or how does that work

[32:18]
I think I've made mistakes with my kids and it hurts to see those worked out in their personalities. You know, some of their defences are because of things I know I wasn't great at. But that hurts. A couple of my kids, I've had the opportunity to talk through things that I know were hurtful for them and apologise. and I think a couple of them are doing some good work at processing

[32:52]
and sorting their defences, you know, even getting some help to do that. A couple of them aren't ready to do that yet and I think… um but but on the other hand you also see the grace of god in there are things in my kids where i go they're amazing they're amazing kids they're wonderful they're i can't believe this um and i

[33:23]
love the friendship and um i love having them around i love their maturity that they bring I love seeing them with their families and the maturity they bring there and in their church and leading people. So there's all these things that you go there. There's God's grace. But yeah, I think, yeah, so that's kind of a long answer to that.

[33:54]
No, no, that's helpful. So I want to push into then our last question. what would you tell your 20 year old self about preparing to lead you know so you've got loads of experience this is a sort of you know two or three kernels of truth that you'd say to your 20 20 year old self um back when i was 20 i think leading looked very glamorous like if i'd see leaders so to me leaders were people that stood on a stage or a platform and it looked very glamorous

[34:27]
so I would say very definitely it's not leading is it's serving it's hurting it's working it's taking the brunt for people so if a team member feels sick or tired they'll say I can't do it I'm too tired I'm too sick a leader just has to keep going and often they take on because you're tired and sick, I'll take it on. So when church started, there was plenty to do, plenty to get stuck into. But funnily enough, there was always this kind of hankering for a kind of a leadership role,

[35:02]
almost like the grass is greener. So I remember women's convention thinking, oh, I'd love to talk. Why? At a women's convention on the platform. So I must have still had that desire. And so obviously leadership there is mixed with, the desire for leadership is mixed with some really godly sinful motives I don't know what on earth's driving me there and I remember once wishing that I could be asked to have that role wondering why I remember actually walking along the beach

[35:34]
thinking with great angst about this for some reason walking along the beach looking at the ways. And it was this very aha kind of moment where a strong, and I would say it's the Holy Spirit, a strong impression came on me. You have enough in front of you. Just look at the women in front of you and serve them. Look after them, put your life into them. That is enough work for

[36:07]
you. And it was this very strong, challenging rebuke, but at the same time, huge relief, because I thought, God has given me so much to do. Why am I wishing I had something else? And I felt, yeah, sorry, I felt grateful to God that he'd already entrusted me with so much and rebuked for wanting something else. Anyway, there's an interesting end to this story, because a few months later, you wouldn't believe it, someone rang me and asked me if I would like

[36:38]
at Katoomba Women's Convention. And you said no. You said no. Or you said yes. No. Okay. I said yes and it was interesting because I reflected on, my goodness, I was actually at peace not doing it. And I said yes, which I think was, at the time I thought, well, I'm in a better place to say yes. Yeah. I need to do it. Having said that, once I said yes, it was a year off. I spent the whole year trying to prepare this talk.

[37:11]
It might have been two talks. And when I gave it, it was very mediocre. It was very mediocre. They do this feedback and the feedback for my talk was really low and I read the feedback. Anyway, it didn't crush me. It was one of those interesting things where I just thought, well, there you go. I had it, had a taste. You know, it's just, it was not at all cracked up to be what I thought it would be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And all the wrong motives and stupid motives, I think, were helped to be put to death through that experience.

[37:48]
Leading is not glamorous, but it is interesting. I do still want to do what I have at the moment in front of me to do. And I think that's God. I think praise him. He has given me some good convictions and motivations. And they've come from him. not my sinful self. And so I do want to see people stand firm in Jesus. I do want to see that. I do want to see their lives centre around him and not get caught up with the lies and the values of the world,

[38:19]
with worldly values. And I find as I'm helping others in that, it actually helps me. It's true, isn't it? As you teach people or you want to see this in people, it it keeps restoring and raising the conviction in me again for the same thing so yeah so so leadership is its own reward in many ways yeah i mean helpful to push into the motivations question though because they're they're they're unseen you know that's it's an unseen thing um

[38:51]
yes and so again again looking looking now you know you're very comfortable up the front um you have a lot of platform ministries with geneva push um and yeah i guess someone you know someone look on and go oh well i can't believe you know yeah no i can't believe you would have had those motivations wrong motives will still be there i you know i've got to watch it's not like i've developed this pure heart no wrong motives will still be there and it will always trip me up when I feel most worried about what people think of me,

[39:25]
there's something wrong going on in me. When I'm most concentrating on the thing that I most want to say, that I want them to believe, that I want them to see in Jesus, when that's my focus, I lose myself, I'm not thinking about myself and I'm in a better place and I'm not even worrying about myself. So when I slip into that, that's great. as it should though yeah yeah yeah so you tell you you tell your 20 year old self uh

[39:58]
think into your your motives and and your why and have yes and understand them more yes yes it's not about you you know what and it doesn't matter it needed to be about me when i was so insecure and i needed the admiration i needed the validation you know what if i can get rid of that need if i can love what God has given me in Jesus and get the security there, then I will be in a better place to do leading for Jesus and purely for people. And that would be a much better place

[40:32]
to do it from. Well, Cathy, really appreciate you spending time and being so open as well. Can I just close in prayer and just pray for you and your ministry at EV Church? Love you too. Thank you. Heavenly Father we do thank you for your love and your goodness and just give you thanks and praise for how you've worked in Cathy's life through her times growing up as a missionary kid and the way that you've used both her and Andrew to see a church built on the central coast that is seeing change happen not only there but across Australia as well

[41:03]
and we just pray for her ministry at the moment, ask that you might give her patience and help her to keep seeing tweaking and changing so that people can be mature in Christ. And we pray that you might continue to use her to build up loads of leaders at EV and across Australia as well. And we ask that in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Thanks, Kathy. Thanks. If you've enjoyed what you've been listening to today, we'd love it if you'd leave a review,

[41:34]
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