[0:00]
In the time frame that we have really I'm going to focus on three main aspects of Marshall evangelism. Three things that I think will be useful for your whatever you're doing. There are three things that can apply across and that's just to tell you where we're heading. Two things I've noticed with people is firstly ultimately everybody wants to be understood.

[0:32]
If you think about someone through 9th we would have it up but I'm sure you're familiar with that. We are fearfully and wonderfully made. That kind of concept that God created all people. And because He made them He knows them completely. And so actually that longing I see it all the time and the people that I come across just want to be understood. So once we're aware we understood completely God will completely understand you. The other side that the other maintain that I see in people is longing to be eternally secure.

[1:11]
That works itself out in lots of different ways. I've got a work in buttoff to make sure that I have a great house in the this and that or being the person that I need to be, getting my personal best. All that stuff is about living life to the full and being secure. So Ecclesiastes 4, 10, 11 though tells us that it is God that has put that longing of eternity in every man's heart but they come and stand it. So thinking of those two threads where will they be completely, ultimately eternally secure in your tense.

[1:52]
So those two longings deep longings in people under Peter Lowe from Pastoral Care and Evangelism of course. Pastoral Care, people wanting to be understood. Pastoral Care, standing alongside someone listening. And that eternal security that's evangelism is that the ultimate outtunnel of evangelism is that people are understood that they are forgiven and that their eternal is secure in him.

[2:27]
So as it says on your sheets, the only relationship with God can release two things about completely. And only trusting in Jesus' sacrifice on the cross as an attermin for us can heal our relationship with God ultimately. So that's the motivation. You're motivated out of the gospel and you're out of God laying down his life for us through Christ. And then our motivation becomes we love because he first loved us. So we share the gospel and we listen and stand on his side.

[3:03]
Okay? Now here's something for the crowd. Difference between empathy and sympathy. Putting people get this wrong so that's why I'm bringing it up. If you have say what is empathy and what is sympathy? Empathy is where you have an understanding of a particular situation and sympathy is where you show feelings of, I'm sorry, that that's happened.

[3:35]
So sympathy has something to do with… Yeah, it's chipping, chipping. Does empathy have something to do with feeling for and going through with them but not necessarily thinking that it's a bad thing or not? Not thinking it's a bad thing. Yeah. So sympathy may be… I'm sorry that you're going through it. Rather than feeling that you're as you go through it.

[4:10]
I'm okay. That's a good, just digushing ideas. Welcome, by the way. Thanks, David. You're a little loving to know. Any ideas about empathy? I think we've got some ideas about sympathy being saying I'm sorry. An empathy having a bit more to do with feelings. I'd rather press that a bit more. Because empathy, you know, kind of feeling like you're sharing your experience or sharing your net views.

[4:47]
And how would you do that? Well, I guess kind of listening to what they're saying and then being able to say, you know, that's really hard. So I wonder if that's good. One of the main differences and where we get it wrong and culture where we use the terms wrong is what you said,

[5:17]
I'm sorry, it's coming from my perspective. So that is sympathy. I'm sorry that happened to you. You're all stopping out of how you're feeling about it. Okay, empathy. Thank you. It's a slightly different view. Thank you very much. And empathy is trying to put yourself in their shoes. So that picks up that feeling. It was saying really, feeling what they're feeling.

[5:49]
But we're thinking about empathy and sympathy. Welcome. And the differences. So empathy is really trying to get it from their perspective. So an example of that might be you rock up so many know that they're mothers. And you say, I'm so sorry, you must be feeling awful about that. And she says, actually, she was a complete witch. I'm really glad she's gone. Can you see the difference between empathy and sympathy? I'm sorry.

[6:21]
I'm putting my feelings, I'm saying you feel like that. And she's saying, I want to get how I'm feeling. Listen to me. My mother was a witch on purchase gun. So your empathy then changes. Then you get to hear from her and you're like, oh wow. Your empathy is what would it be like to have a mother like that? I can't imagine mother like that. I can't imagine that being like experience of mother. So instead of putting what you think or how you would feel onto that person,

[6:55]
start to hear and try to imagine what they feel. That's it, please, this is a very important. There's not really like that in a way. It's just that the terms are wrongly understood. And so therefore misused commonly. So if you want to write a card to someone and you say, I'm sorry, that your mother died, there's nothing wrong in saying that now. Is there? And if you haven't had a chance to talk to that person,

[7:27]
you probably have no idea how they're feeling about it. But you can imagine. So you might have empathy is going more into, I imagine that would be difficult for you. Then you're not putting your feelings on there and you're trying to imagine. Does that make sense? So obviously empathy is great because it's that sense of that person being understood by you because you're trying to get into their world. Now, caring Christians, often get that bit wrong.

[8:00]
And often even more so those involved in pastoral care, ministry, and the Japanese see, as we're all about your rescuers, we want to help, we want to fix. So much so that we don't just put one foot in their world. You put both feet in and then we completely enmeshed. And we feel so much that we can't sleep at night because we're enmeshed in their world.

[8:30]
So that's dangerous too. What a healthy syphemis is. You put both feet in their world, one foot in my world. I know how I'm feeling about this. I'm trying to feel how that person's feeling about this. Does that make sense? So that's healthy empathy. So, I'll just get us up to speed now that we've got PowerPoint.

[9:02]
Those are the verses we're looking at, one, three, nine. But being understood, you search me, you know me, created my inmost being. You make me together, my mother's where, my pray to you because I'm faithfully in wonderful in my name. And that's the one from Ecclesiastes, got a certainity in the hearts of men. They cannot further what God has done from beginning to end. Motivation for pastoral evangelism. And one John showing the gospel.

[9:34]
And then our motivation we love because he first loved us. So definition of evangelism that my use is a presentation of Jesus Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit. So that people will put their trust in God through Him, accept Him as their saviour, and serve Him as their kin in the fellowship of His Church. Let's, we'll skip this. Do you want to bring it up here?

[10:04]
That's it, we got it. Yeah, yeah. The definition of pastoral care which I use is pastoral care, response, and ongoing way to the deep and continuing need in all of us. For loving, support, and nurture of our wellbeing. This need is heightened during times of personal crisis and losses. Often when we say the word pastoral care, we're thinking more of that bit, won't we?

[10:34]
The heightened during times of personal crisis can losses, including social chaos and natural disasters. Whereas at the beginning you can see it's saying, a deep and continuing need in all of us for loving, support, and nurture of our wellbeing. That is why many churches organise pastoral care through Bible study, because those are the weekly touch points where people come together, and actually everybody needs pastoral care. Now again, sometimes we have up, sometimes we have down, and sometimes things that we can't see, hit us.

[11:11]
And on an everyday basis, we're jumping alongside each other in terms of pastoral care, that alongsideness is why churches organise pastoral care through Bible study, because you're alongside each other in those ups and downs of life. So it's not just the crisis, it's the, I had a bad thankful at work today, I don't know what to make of it. Those kind of things, or I've got a question about God and His, eating away at my heart, and nobody at church wants to hear it.

[11:44]
But that's really impacting me and my relationship with God. It's that stuff, isn't it? That is what's different about pastoral care and pastoral counselling. Pastoral counselling is for a specific issue, for a specific time, and you make an appointment and you go and see someone to sort something out. Can you see the difference? Pastoral care is jumping on the side every day in out of life. Does that make sense?

[12:16]
So, as it says in that life sentence, pastoral care often takes place informally and spontaneously. Don't we know that one? Just about to go home, put my coffee in hand. Bum shell! Over the biscuit table. That's pastoral care, isn't it? You can have an appointment, you're not in a nice room, you haven't got an hour set aside. That's pastoral counselling, pastoral care, anytime, any place.

[12:46]
Does that make sense? But the difference? Sure, we all familiar with it. Can you just talk a little bit about what you think pastoral care is as opposed to, you know, say just being a friend or like kind of, like one music pastoral care, what are these bookiness? I'm going to look at three key things of pastoral evangelism. One of them is, it's on the other side, it's called initiative and freedom.

[13:19]
The key to that is contracting and that feeds in. So, who are you to that person? What is your role with that person? Does that make it feeds in? There's a Catholic guy called Topper. He thinks about, he has a very useful model or he calls it the focuses of conversation. And in that he shows that all conversations kind of weave in and out of these different arenas.

[13:50]
And that kind of, I think what you're getting at is, can you be a friend and be a pastoral? Where does pastoral care fit into friendship or something like that? Yeah, we've had like some discussions months, actually, actually, as a team, when we say we're doing pastoral care, what are we actually wanting to do? Like are we just listening? Are we praying with people? Are we offering advice? Are we wanting them to the scripture? Like what exactly do we want to be doing as pastoral care?

[14:20]
Well, we're going to go to, one of the first things I'm going to do is look at the functions of pastoral care. Sure. No, six of them? Yeah, I might be just okay for that. It's very good you have questions. And that will fan those out. And maybe that will, maybe that will help you to see the place of the variety of things that can be involved in pastoral care. But also the contracting thing is a really big thing. Sure. That we, again, as a Christian body, often get wrong and get boundaries merged and that kind of thing.

[14:52]
And in terms of, I'll just tell you about this since you've brought it up. Topper, which sees how conversations weave in and out of different states. So one will be social friendly. And you're talking about the cricket, you're talking about the weather, you're whatever you're talking about. And there's not really any emotional content in the conversation. And then the next one is called psycho-emotional, where people start to attach an emotion to something like,

[15:23]
I'm really aligned with Tony Abbott at the moment. So he's still talking about the newspaper, but they've actually did their displaying an emotion. And so good pastoral care is picking up that emotion and reflecting it back to that person and seeing what they want to do with it since they've entrusted you with that emotion. Spiritual conversation is one bang straight in, I've got doubts about what I do to be said.

[15:55]
Sometimes when you're visiting on boards, I've explained to those who weren't here earlier, coming out of the hospital, the chapisee, Becca, and sometimes they're just straighting. Oh, you're here, right? And all they might say, oh, I don't want to talk to a chap here today. I'm not religious and then they'll go on to tell you their last story. So do you walk out because they're not religious? What do you stay in this? So sometimes I go straight to spiritual, and the other aspect is ritual practice, which would involve prayer.

[16:26]
Obviously for Catholics, top of the Catholic, it might involve sacraments and more important, not more important than what we do in church, but they're in the life of the Catholic, having communion or the last rites and things like that can be, they need to be in that moment. So he sees that conversations flip from that, and I think there is that aspect of pastoral care that things move around, and that's all about the other person's feeling safe.

[16:57]
So it's safe to talk about the without, it's not so safe to talk about their emotions, but sometimes they flip one in there to see what you do with it. And if you can handle that well, they might trust you with something else. It's often a bit of a testing out. If you can handle the emotion, if you think it's all right to be angry about something, they might tell you, okay, what they feel with the spiritual. Does that make sense? Anyway, it flips around. It's not a, you might go social-friendly to ritual practice.

[17:31]
It doesn't, it's not a straight line. Okay, conversations do that, don't they? Anyway, I'll just tell you that because it's, you've raised it. So, we've done most of this. Loving others leads to empathetic listening. That is the care to pastoral care. That's actually missing on your, should say, L-O and E-L, pastoral care. Loving others leads to empathetic listening.

[18:03]
Before some of those who came in later came in, we had a bit of a, a chat about empathy and sympathy and the differences. So, you might want to catch up with someone and work that one out. So, we've done this. Empathy, putting yourself in others shoes. What makes a good listener? Can someone give me an example of someone who is a good listener?

[18:34]
So, then? I was, I was wondering if they were going to say the word that you said. Yeah. So, they're going to quote you back to him. So, when you said, that you were, what do you mean, the question? What does that do for you? I'm wondering, makes you a good, you feel good, you feel good now. And that sense that we were talking about before he came in was fairly understood. That if he had been ultimately wants to feel, maybe understood, and you feel like someone has heard you when they take that.

[19:08]
So, has anyone got another example of good listening? So, obviously that's a key one. I think not for you to use that in giving a good use all the way in advice, but actually just seeing you as not being. Yeah. Just following the fixed ourselves, but it's going to be good. Yeah, not fixing, not me too, isn't. Oh, yeah, I have that too. And then you're off down your track. You've left them behind. Yeah. I've seen questions.

[19:38]
Just sort of get into it. Yeah, I have a strange relationship with questions. Yeah. So, us. How's that? Well, you tell me what jobs you can think of where people use a lot of questions. Think of some jobs. Pictures? Journalism. Journalists. Research. Research, yeah. Tell me why I'm not. Tell me why I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. Research.

[20:08]
Yeah. Tell me why I'm not. Tell me why I'm not. I'm not. Doctors, lawyers. Parents. Parents. Parents. Think about those roles, those types of jobs and people, and what the effect of questions have on us. Put yourself in that space. I don't think questions, though, to better understand what they're saying. What is that? What do you put that in the saying?

[20:38]
Well, let's just go with the feeling of being incredibly nice. You can just pamper and quarry your job. Yeah. Yeah. Try to dig into the world of problems there. Discompbit. Yeah, so, yeah. How's it going? How's it going? How's it going? How's it going? It's going to be. So, happy to be like a Spanish in position or you feel proved or whatever. So, open questions are good, but even those I've used reservedly.

[21:11]
And the question why is particularly confronting? Because it goes right into the heart of a human being and the existential being. So, you really need to be careful with that one. Use it sparingly. Open questions if you're going to use questions. But really, if you're reflecting back someone's feelings, you don't really need them. So, I would always be trying to help you to rid you of questions. If you're really thinking past your care, if you're thinking past your counselling,

[21:45]
if you're thinking about the study of leaders, see we have so many hats. So, questions have placed in those other roles, don't they? So, we use them. But if you're thinking past your care, want to be one foot in their space. I really want to understand them. And I want to watch what's going on with me, avoid questions. And see how you fare without them. Yes, do you have final answer?

[22:15]
There are some people that are on a heart-wish press consultant. It's not a frowning question, but it's helping them to always like to, I don't know, but I have that prize sometimes, I think, for the Aloe Prompt, or just a little bit more to help them express what they're struggling with. Certainly, I wouldn't apply this across necessarily to children.

[22:45]
I wouldn't apply this across necessarily to someone with a second language, and that would be a real need to help friend questions. Somebody who's married with mental health disability, you may need to be, or may structure questions, but usually, others you can find another way you might observe, you seem down today. We have very important assignments as well, aren't we?

[23:16]
Sometimes it takes time for things to tick over and just sitting with someone in the silence. Then the gold comes. So, oh, yeah, pens on age and mental capacities and language. I've seen questions that are needed more in those circumstances. I think it's just what we used to, which is used to, and when we have a role with someone we usually use, questions, we feel empowered by our role as they're bound to certainly need more than they're whatever.

[23:51]
There's a place for that, but just be sure what you're doing, which handover I've got on right now. I have a love-hate relationship with questions, because I need them a lot in some of the work that I'm doing, but I know the effect they have in past will keep. Well, I'll be out of it. Of course. So, if you have questions, please finish this, feel all about what they're saying. Like, how do you progress the conversation? You just, you know, in the water, or is it just, you just wait in the silence

[24:26]
where they can think about it a bit more or all? The other rule of silence is, is they create it, they will break it. Unless it becomes oppressive. Okay. So, do you just focus on the skill of reflecting? Yeah, reflecting back their emotions. And what you're doing, what Ben said, and he feels good, is really, when someone reflects back to them, and he can hear that though.

[24:57]
Third, him. Yeah. I wasn't really going to focus on this stuff, but this seems to be where you want to go. Okay, this was the stuff I was going to whistle through. So, here's some ideas of active listening. I'm sorry, it's gone off the screen like that. I'm not sure why. So, being focused on the other, staying alongside not a head off. So, often where, like, two miles down the road, an inch rather than a mile,

[25:29]
focusing on the feelings, not the details. We get interested in this story, and then we ask a question that is often for our own curiosity. And they haven't chosen to give us that detail, and they don't need to. But if we stay with them, it'll probably come up anyway. And if it doesn't, are you really there for them, or are you there to have your own curiosity satisfied? So, focusing on the feelings, not the details, and reflecting these back. So, leading to what Kirk was asking.

[26:02]
Oh, this one. And being aware of your own agendas. So, when we have got multiple roles with someone, we always have agendas. And it may be that you're in a pastoral care team, or you're a boss, you're a boss, you're a leader, something like that. And the minister has given you the heads up that's something going on in that person's life, and he's particular wants you to be watching out for them. So, you have an agenda given by the minister in good faith, out of love.

[26:34]
But you have an agenda that you want to get to with that person. And that is, can get really getting the way. So, it's a texture we'll disappear to recognize that, and stick with them on where they want to go. Could you just out your agenda? Well, it depends on your relationship with that person. And if you wanted to be transparent and say, hey, someone says, told me to look out for you because you have it in rough time, that's a good start.

[27:07]
Good spot to start in, because then that's not going to get in the way. If you feel that that's appropriate, with that person within that relationship, it's probably better to have that open agenda, but still you've got to work out, that they want to go there with me this moment of time. That makes them feel like they're a project or they're an arrow. Something that has to be watched out for you. That's why I'm saying it needs to be within that relationship you have to work out.

[27:38]
What's appropriate within that relationship? But open agenda, if it's appropriate, if it's appropriate, that you've been told that information, I don't know. When we get to contracting, you'll see that more as well, or the initiative will be free, that kind of shows that a bit more. So, there's the questions, open, not closed. A hurting heart has no ears.

[28:08]
That comes out of an African saying. When someone is an emotional, psychological or physical pain, it is hard to hear theology, however truthful and important it may be. So, if we seek to listen first and allow a person to be truly hurt, they may then feel ready to also hear from us. Truth and timing. Truth and timing.

[28:38]
So, this takes us to holistic pastoral care, which is the one that I wanted to, which will fan out some of the things that we've been thinking about. These six functions of pastoral care, they've been developed over 30, 40 years through pastoral care and counselling. So, through them the 50s, right through to the 90s. On the back of your sheet, you have bullet point,

[29:08]
well, the beginning of the letters for that. So, guidance, healing, nurturing, reconciliation, sustaining and liberation. Is it Calum? Kate. Kate. So, in here, perhaps this will start to answer that question you asked about earlier. What is pastoral care? These are functions that in hospital chapancy, we are looking out for.

[29:38]
They're saying that people need guidance, healing, nurturing, reconciliation, sustaining and liberation. How do we tell which one when? Sometimes you meet people and they've got all of that going on in one hit. So, how are you going to work out what their greatest need is and how to offer pastoral care within that need? Well, they will make it clear to you. They will make it clear to you because they will keep going back to the one that is top of their list.

[30:10]
As Evangelicals, which ones do you think we use the most? Guidance. Guidance is a strong one for Evangelicals. What's another one, or two? Reconciliation. What do you mean by reconciliation? I will go into it a bit more deeply, but just on the surface, reconciliation, guidance.

[30:45]
They're the two and liberation. Those are the three strong ones for Evangelicals that they work in function in the law. That is because we take the gospel seriously. We believe there is only one way to Jesus Christ and we know and operate under that caveat that someone's greatest need is a spiritual one and that is to be reconciled to God. That is why we operate like that.

[31:15]
But as you can see, it has a place. It has a place and it's place reconciliation, particularly is the brokenness, forgiveness in a relationship with God and with others. So how would you know what's going on for a person well? For guidance, the kind of language that would come up for someone who really truly needs guidance, was we jump there straight away.

[31:46]
I need to guide this person. I need to give them the theology of guidance. It might not be top of their list in this moment. It might be two weeks down the track. And what to we can see, what they need, what we've got to work in the moment. What do they need right now? What's top of their list right now? They're going to be showing signs of confusion in their language. I'm not really sure what God wants of me right now.

[32:16]
You need to listen a bit more to that and find out what they want you to go at them in. If we look at the next one, healing, the kind of language you're going to hear is hurt, woundness. Betrayed by my friend. By the way, anger is a emotion that we often grab, but there's always something on the name of anger.

[32:47]
And often it's things like this. Angers on the surface, and we see it a lot, and we think, all right, that's a very angry. Always trying to think, something of that anger. Angers on display, it's something underneath. So hurt and woundness are likely to be in the conversation, listening for the emotion. Now, during, someone mentioned that, there's one only disciples,

[33:17]
Discicling new Christians, being church volunteers, this is your fields, and nature is a big part of that. And there be a sense of immaturity or insecurity, and a need to grow and to bring security and maturity. You'll hear it in the language. Reconciliation, brokenness, broken relationships with God or others.

[33:49]
And obviously, we know how the gospel speaks into that. It's sustaining. That is a sense of one thing's happened over another, over another, over another, and that person is truly overwhelmed. It's often the time of complete chaos, and our job then is to hold that chaos. And so we say, not fix it, not to hold it. Bring some form of containment just by listening, and then we'll see you at all out.

[34:22]
And I've got a model for you around there in a minute. We'll help you with that. Liberating, you're going to hear ideas of stuckness and trappedness in what they're telling you. And this can become, you know, bitterness, unresolved conflict, and that person gets stuck. In terms of referring, if someone is truly stuck, stuck, that is what time we might refer to,

[34:58]
to some model for pastoral counsel. So now I was saying earlier about the difference, playing counseling with pastoral care. So oftentimes that we're trying to be counselors when we actually not trained to, and not meant to be counselors. But good pastoral care will lead you to a place where you actually know when to refer. So you know, they're really stuck, and I actually can't imagine these in objected held with this issue for a period of time. So getting disarmed and on that. Can you tell me what places of the next level of psychological and psychological heart risks,

[35:34]
or is that not the next level of, are they on the same level of the answers in your view? When do you refer? Well, I don't know why you've been making those kind of decisions. I mean, I think it's good to have a list of people that you would refer to. But you're saying, how would I know the difference whether they need a psychiatrist or a psychologist? Is that, oh no, no, or like, do they need a counselor, or do they need, you know, perhaps more medical intervention,

[36:10]
you know, they're, they come to points in things like depression, or anxiety, or even situations where, in some of us last so much stuff, really, they've got so many of those things going on. Have you, God, they might need a counselor, or they're actually wearing like a doctor? Or, yeah, well, I think you'd have to gauge it in the moment, but always have, try and have a list of all of the three available that you would refer to.

[36:41]
And if you don't have that to your hand, ask a member of staff in the church, where you are, or, and sadly, sometimes it just aren't. You know, a good psychologist is nearby. And this is being recorded, so I have to look at this comment. But, you know, a good counselor, a psychologist or psychiatrist, doesn't have to be Christian to be good. Okay, obviously, if you've got a good Christian psychologist or psychiatrist or counselor,

[37:14]
they're going to be able to work with somebody and take into account their Christian faith as well. But, good psychological care is better than dodgy psychological care. It's what I'm trying to say, yes. So, don't be afraid to say, if you know that someone's got a good track record of helping people, come through things, don't be afraid to send them to a good psychologist. Or, do you want to add to that because I know that you've worked in a psychologist?

[37:49]
No, I think that that's fair. I think it's difficult in… I don't think that we do list very well in terms of knowing who to refer to as a community. I think that's something that is missing, isn't it? So, if you're struggling, you're not the only one. But, I think what you're saying is sound. Let's keep this week and always check them out. Quick, those kind of questions afterwards as well. So, what can get in the way our own agendas we've briefly talked about and also drama triangles?

[38:24]
I won't explain the title on this, but I will give you a handout which has a whole lot of feelings on one side. Can you cross that track for me? And on the other side has a diagram of a drama triangle. There's three components to a drama triangle. You can rescue it in the persecutor. And we get caught up in these all the time. All the time. And the triangle moves around.

[38:55]
So, you might start as a victim. Pull me this, this, and this has happened. And then… Oh, I give you a good example. So, I went… I was doing a hospital ward visit in and a… A guy called out that I was an Anglican and he said, Oh, paid a gentson. What an awful man. And I was thinking, oh my gosh, I'm at my college. I know him personally. He's not an awful man.

[39:25]
So, big, strong pulling me to do what? Defend the gentson. If I do that, I start to persecute. See how it's formed. So, at the moment I'm the victim. And then if I start to defend pitigensin, then I become the persecutor. How could you possibly say that about him? And he becomes the victim. And often, actually, we're more, like I mentioned earlier,

[39:56]
in Christian ministry and people who have ministry mounted often more rescuers, the fixits, the running in and saving the day. When we get involved in that drama triangle we're gone. We can no longer listen. See how that affects our pastoral care. We know a little bit listen to it. What do we do to stay out of the loop? And you find yourself in the loop, just get out of the loop. Get out of, I'm saying a loop, but get out of the triangle. Because it compromises your listening. And we also do with God.

[40:28]
People were say things about God and we want to defend him. Can I tell you, he's a big enough guy. Can fight his own battles. He doesn't need us to defend him. I'm not saying there isn't a place for apologies. I'm just saying that in conversations, it's much better that we listen to their ideas about God and hear them. Because there's often pain or hurt around them.

[40:58]
So with the pitigens, I'm going to be able to go to you. So what I said was, oh wow, you heard it. It doesn't sound like you like him very much. I came by, oh I just kept on dying. You kept on dying. Try and hook me. Look what he's done to this, this, this, this. It was a very strong force I just wanted to. It's not true. I'm knowing he's not alive. He doesn't mean that. I wanted to do that the whole time.

[41:28]
But I just kept going back to, this is what he thinks. He sounds really angry about that. He's his feelings, it's his stuff. Leave it in his core. Even if I totally don't prove it. And then notice what goes on inside you. Is there's the tension? Not anymore. We do it all the time. Especially in families. Can you imagine the jargon triangle? Oh my gosh, all the time. And I'm not really. So it's happening. It's happening all the time. But if you're aware of it, and you want to be good distance,

[42:00]
then that will help. Yeah, that's really interesting. But essentially you want, with the rescue, or you want God to be the rescuer in the end. Is that the idea? Yeah. You present God in a way that they can cast that burden towards you. Yeah. And that is, that is a really good theological way of looking at it. But the rescue is there's often someone in that picture who comes and tries to save a day of it. So someone says, I'm like this,

[42:30]
and we try and talk them out of it. So listening to why they feel like that. So we do it all the time. No, you're not. No, you're not. We think that's good encouragement. It was actually, like, I just mean, might be to be heard, because they're actually completely fragile and insecure about this thing. If someone would just listen to them, instead of trying to talk them out of it, how they feel. So we rescue, we jump in, we rescue all the time. Don't we? Don't we? We've been dangerous in the politics.

[43:00]
I run a evangelistic wildwood discussion group. Yeah, people who don't go to church. Yeah. And we are taking the attack with the politics. So we talk about first question like the, what do you think about religious people? And the model for this discussion on using is, let's have an open question like that. Then let's look at what the Bible says. So the Bible says, these. Yeah. I feel like I struggle with this triangle,

[43:32]
not to jump in and say, no, no, no, no, no, you're wrong. I guess, do you have any tips with that? My model is, let's open the discussion. Let's have a discussion. We're here to look at what the Bible says. So let's let God speak about, to just tell those in this, I guess. I do have lots of them, but I think they would be best dealt with asking about it. Yeah, because I've got, we could talk about that for the rest of the time that we have.

[44:05]
Is that all right? I've got lots of thoughts on that. Okay. So easily we swap around and we become, so it always swaps around. And before you know it, the rest of you are who went into do good. What the hell were you doing interfering? They become victim and they're someone persecutes them. The person that were trying to help starts to persecute. So it just swaps around and around and around. So just stay out of it as much as you can.

[44:37]
Right. Here we go. I do want to get onto the two things, the other two things that I wanted to show you. Initiative in freedom. This is a portrait by Paul and Hunt of Jesus. It's famous. It's called The Light of the World, because he's holding a lamp, and he's knocking at a door, which is overgrown. Some of you may know it. If you do an art history, you may notice there is no hand-drawn on the door.

[45:08]
That is deliberate. Some people have seen that as a picture of person's heart. Jesus knocks. It's up to the person to let them in. So you can make that theologically what you like. But I find it very helpful in terms of thinking about pastoral care. And some of the things is what's my role with a person.

[45:38]
And especially when we've been talking about how ministers have often given us agendas, we've been on paper this looks good. So and so is going to be looking after that person in pastoral care and through the Bible study. But relationally, it's a disaster. That's that person actually doesn't want to talk to us about all those things that we're meant to be talking to them about. It doesn't work. Things on paper don't always work in practice, do they? Initiative in freedom will really help you. And it comes from William Oglesby.

[46:09]
This is a really old book, but it's great because he's actually using biblical things for pastoral care. And he has a whole chapter on it, chapter two. Now, we can knock and say, I'm here for you. But it really is up to that person to say whether they want to engage with us pastoral care or not. And they will show us that in several ways.

[46:40]
They will show us that manual because they speak immediately about what the things they want to share off their heart, or they won't. And when they don't, what does that tell us? I don't know what to trust. It might be now. It might be, I actually need a clue right now and I can't talk to you. So there might be a physical reason. And in hospitals, in the chapnets that I've been involved in, there's often physical reasons that say, oh no, the chapnets are just a rock.

[47:11]
I'd like to talk to him, but I really, I've got to be washed by the nurse or. There might be physical. That can be the same in parish, waiting for a phone call, as you can be in or whatever. It might be that they just don't feel like it today. It might be that they're not opening up all that stuff. You're ready. You've got time. You've put time aside. To see them. I love them. But it's not their time to do that with you. So initiative and freedom, the teaching of that is take initiative. Take initiative.

[47:42]
Listen to their freedom. To not go there with you. And we'll show you that in what they choose to speak to you about. Those four focuses, they stick on facts and the weather. They're actually telling you something. Saying, I don't want to go there today. I don't feel safe with that. But as I was saying, if you then, if they give you an emotion and you deal with that well, and you give it back to them and they deny it, they don't want to go there.

[48:15]
For whatever reason, maybe not now, just in that moment, maybe they will in the future. But not now. Maybe they never will. With you. For whatever reason. Can I ask how you take that initiative? Is it just a comment on the journalist? Not seeing me happy today or something like that. Yeah, is that what you're talking about? And that's where the spirit of God is at work and we need to trust Him, don't we? Because He often reveals things to us. And what do we do with Him? So He may reveal something.

[48:46]
But we can test that. We can test that. Whether that is to be used now or whether there's just an insight for the future. We can test it. And raise something in a very gentle way. Yeah. And if they want to run, they're not going to run with it. It's called contracting. Oh, stick with that. It's called contracting. You're contracting. Who am I to you? What do you want to do with me in this moment?

[49:16]
So again, in hospital, check and see, you might be visiting the ward and you have this amazing conversation with this person. And then you come back two days later and you think you're going to pick up where you left off. But they're in a completely different place. And actually, because that was so resolved then, they haven't got any interesting talk into you anymore about that. But that's the same with people. So you've been thinking like, oh, gosh, where will I go with that next time? It's done. Thank you very much.

[49:46]
What's the same with people that we might minister to is what your contracting is. This is called like the first few minutes in a hospital conversation. That's your contracting. Who am I to you? Who do you want me to be to you in this moment? Do you want me to be your friend today? And you're just going to hang out and have a coffee and talk about silly things. And you can ban somebody with your friends in a way that is different. And then something in that conversation might get a bit deep.

[50:17]
You might go, oh, pastoral path comes on and then you come back. Does that make sense? So what am I to that person right now? What is my role, what agenda do I come with? But then actually, contractually, like you said, I might need to do an open agenda and say, hey, whether you want me to meet up with you today because of this. And they might say, on your bar, I want to talk to you about that today. But they'll make it clear that I might say, hey, go, it's on on that.

[50:49]
You see? You could give them a freedom to go where they want to go. That's probably not lost time if they're wanting to just go around the weather or the day they're going to get. No, it's still in relationship. So I think that's the first time I've ever been to a church church and see those. I know that I'm keen evangelists and going to a church church and see, often get very frustrated. Because you might need to speak to someone about the weather and their grandchildren and the dogs for three years

[51:21]
before they're going to trust you with what happened in the war. As an evangelist, you want to get that you know what their greatest need is and they're going to help, they're not safe yet. And they're 89. They're licks and they're bodies falling apart. So you want to get this straight away. So no, it's not lost. Building relationships and trust is not lost. It's just about being sacrificial,

[51:54]
not being the other person and going with what they want to go. It's a deep, decently and skill. And it's certainly not passive. So Sarah, yeah, tell me this is, you know, playing me else, of course. But, so Sarah, someone has, you know, a big situation in life. Well, we know they're involved in seeing people in some way. And you're going to care for them and be alongside them, but also basically help them stop them.

[52:30]
See the other ways and that's okay. Do you think that's an outside of a pastoral care or something separate or, you know, because I'm thinking if you're meeting up with someone, like I've had this, you may have with someone and you know they've got this issue and you kind of want to talk to them about it and they don't mind going there. Then, like, do you just wait and let them know? Taking the initiative. So take the initiative. Hey, I know this is going on for you.

[53:02]
Yeah. See what they're doing there? So I don't want to go there, they don't want to go there. Yeah. They don't want to go there with you, maybe. And you've got to remember that if some decent sin and you're part of a ministry team or you're a committed Christian or you're a minister's wife or anything that's seen as a holy Christian next, then they might want to hire you with them all. Yeah. You might be the last person they want to talk to because that's a key team.

[53:32]
It's a very vulnerable thing to do as to a menu sin. We don't mind doing that, do we? Yeah. So take the initiative. And if they don't want to go there, you can always make that open statement. I would always be here for you. And if every you want to talk to me about it, if everything's good and controlled, I'm here for you. It's a bit like that, the father and the wife and the son,

[54:04]
and then do you wait for them to kind of ask your advice like what do you think I should do? If they were going to do that with you, yeah. I love our stewards way. He says from CVF days, he would say, I can't remember how many years it is, but he's got a long term brother of a brother who was not in the Lord and he would ask him, periodically. So it has long term relationships like two, three years, every four, five years,

[54:36]
I don't know what it was, but he would say, okay, time for me to raise that theme again, see how it's going. So periodically taking the initiative in those long term relationships. Take the initiative, see where they want to go with it. They will supervise you, we'll call it. They will supervise you. You will see in their language. If you keep talking about salvation and they really angry about someone you betrayed, they're going to keep going back to their own and going, and then they can be up with you. If you don't listen, they'll give you a chance, people are very kind, and then they'll never go back.

[55:08]
She's not listening to him, he's not listening, then they won't raise it with you anymore. On your sheet it says, evangelism or evangelism. With our roles, we sometimes think it's our job to break down the door. No, it's evangelism. It's not like we're supposed to do that, we need to be very careful, it's abusive. Knock on the door and see if they want to open it. If you just keep that image in mind, I think it will help.

[55:41]
Right, when someone asks that big of a question, this is the VDI model we call it. It's usually a cry from the heart, usually something awful has happened, or a series of things have happened. So I've got lunch there, do you know that? It's called the screen. Over time, if good listening occurs, the question changes from why. What's that in there?

[56:11]
From why too? It's one missing. What does it mean? It actually changes from why to what does it mean? Now, in the sustaining, holding, mode, ventilation, ever come across someone and they just feel like they're just puke to load. Come across people like that. Okay, very important that they have somewhere or someone to do that with.

[56:47]
We're calling it the puke bucket, like the sustaining is holding the puke bucket. We're calling it that, obviously, for a very long time. But one day when I was thinking about prepping this for a contra-sibner, my son came right in front of me and entered the piggy bank on the table. And I thought that's a much, that's a good illustration of that same thing. Sometimes things happen in people's lives, smashed open, piggy bank gets smashed open and this just kinds of you with. That's the mess of what just happened.

[57:18]
Okay, that's that ventilation. It's very needed to get it all out. That's what your body's doing isn't it, when it's being sick. Something to make me sick and I've got to get it out of my body. Sorry, can I just ask a question about that question? I'll just turn it around before. About asking somebody like taking the initiative into it. Does it get to a point where they're still in this scene? And it's been quite a while where you've heard a good intention to talk to the ballot.

[57:52]
Does it get to a point where as a Christian sister, there needs to be somebody who does kind of say, like, even if they don't want to talk about it, just hate. Like, the main is just being in that scene. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, well, when we get to that point of three, John the one, I'm like, I was loving to do this. Could the most loving do you be like?

[58:22]
Really depends how you know about the scene. Have they ever told you that? Well, there's so many aspects of that. Again, I would love to talk to you after that. Because I think they're really important questions. I think they're the everyday gaps of how do you put this into application with those longer term difficult pastoral issues in marriage. We've only got five minutes. I love it. I love it. I love it. I love everyone to get to see this model. So it's not that I don't think it's an important thing. It is.

[58:52]
So think of it as emotional catharsis. Sometimes things have happened beyond the person smashed. Like, second chances to be on the controls. Sometimes they've been a part of making things bad decisions themselves. Whatever it is, they need to get it off their chest out of their system. If we keep listening and keep listening, and keep listening to that ventilation, don't try and stop the process. Don't try and fix it. Don't try and redirect them. Don't try and theological and change their mind about what they think and feel,

[59:24]
about how bloody awful it is. If we let them swear, if we let them say horrific things about God, that we probably think they don't believe, but we want to correct it. If we just leave it all out, let it get it out. And we're not in to fear with a very key process, which is differentiation. Because once all that money is out on that tabletop, what we want is that tabletop. That strong solid place saves secure, that they can empty their own.

[59:56]
They just got boundaries, hasn't it, tabletop? It's not endless. We want to be that. The differentiation comes when they've got it all out on the table. And they've heard themselves say the rent is things that they don't agree with. And they can start to sort it out. Oh, there's all the five cents left in the ten, and they start to differentiate. Start to see things for how they really are. Okay?

[1:00:30]
They clarify the issues. Often people say things in heat, and then after a second, I believe I said that. But they actually really needed to say it, because they needed to engage with their feelings on the issue. So the wide change is to, it's off the screen, but what does it mean? And they start to think, this has happened, but what does that actually mean? Instead of sitting in the hurt and the emotional hurt, they start to shift. Start to see things differently.

[1:01:01]
What does pink become blue? Integration is the carrying out of the choices. What am I going to do with that? Now I've differentiated. Now I've clarified it. Now I've seen it for what it is. We're going to save it, spend it, donate it, invest it. What does that actually mean for my life? Now, and the integrated process could be anything. Because usually when something's got smashed open, there's a long term change that, you know, things are going to be different from now on.

[1:01:37]
I might see things differently. I might not make the same kind of silly choices that I did before, because I've changed. Or I might need to spread the load a bit. I was trying to do everything. That's how I broke. I might need to spread the load. I might need to go back and do some education or get some training so I don't end up there again. That's a belt, right? Sorry. A belt? I might need to not… That might be tight and a belt. I might need to make change.

[1:02:07]
Often things that have happened that are drastic may something might be disabled. Or the whole family framework system has to change. So, might be living on less money or, like, a lot of decisions are going to need to be made. So, you're living in a new kind of normal. Okay? So, integration, often something that's come from outside, it's smashed as you open. Then, things may never be the same again.

[1:02:39]
This may be that the ongoing reintegration may be, these are never the same. But choices will be made in there of what that looks like and what it means, rather than just, out, this happened. I get a sense in which we're not really doing anything on my budget. It's merely a trust in us and in our bikes. We're giving you a test. You just said what you're doing. The vital thing, you just said what you're doing.

[1:03:11]
It's not that you're not doing anything. No, listening. It's vital. Yes. I mean, listening, rather than speaking. Yeah, we're doing. When somebody's really in that ventilating probe, if they've really got to get it out, there's no space for you. You might say, mm-hmm. I see. That's it. There's no space. If you're doing good listening in that kind of way, they just got to get it out.

[1:03:43]
So, and in the differentiation, it's our temptation to try and jump in there. Because we can see things. We've got to let that let them be in charge of that process. And that leads to true growth in them. And we know that in ourselves, don't we? If somebody ever tried to grow us up in our Christian walk, did it work? No, until we took it on that board, ourselves and saw things with God's spirit and His word and a circumstance and a person, then you grow and you go, yeah, get it.

[1:04:15]
So, it's strange how we try and do that for other people, but we know it doesn't work for us. So, accepting things might always be different. Might now be blue and broken after what happened. So, you might overcome whatever it was that smashed open. I'm just about to ask the process. I find that people will be able to wait and I'll let them do that.

[1:04:46]
And I think they often see the issues once they've done that. But they often come to people like us and want us to fix it. I have a point people come to make her a place or want me to find a solution. So, I'm not being rude. I don't know if that's a laziness that I want to think about in process. I don't really have things to find yet to themselves that's there. I'm not asking you advice. I don't want to give them advice. But it seems like they still come to us or that clarification. Or can you just directly come to think? You realize it's all about being for them and how do we facilitate it?

[1:05:19]
If somebody's truly confused and you are there, I see you, you guy up there, and that's an active pastful care. Are you talking about financial advice or… Well, maybe you're just personal issues and just like issues. In a church Christian context, maybe you better. It's not the big message issues but going all the day to day stuff. Well, I think just in your language, just keep hearing them. I can hear that's really hard for you.

[1:05:49]
What have you come to understand about that? Keep bringing it back on them. Unless they're truly asking you for guidance, they'll really need your guidance as a Christian sister. You notice the Bible well in that way. That guidance aspect is spiritual. It's a spiritual contribution. Obviously, people also have issues like finance and practical issues. And then it's about finding maybe someone in church who can help them with that

[1:06:21]
or someone outside the church. But yeah, I think we do… It's their own journey. So we need to stand alongside them here. Is what I would be advocating. So there you go. I wanted to get through the video because I think they'll use it a lot. And just be aware of the fanning out of what is pastoral care. It's lots of things and there's a place for evangelism and guidance and reading. And liberating.

[1:06:52]
There's a place for it. It's alongside other things and you've got to see what's top of there is in this moment. Before John Lear. Sometimes it is that first place. Hopefully that's been helpful. I know that there's some people who want to talk afterwards, but it is morning tea time. As far as I know, isn't it? I'll press it. Thank you. It's very dear to you.