[0:06]
the simple principle is begin with the end in mind but don't start with the end so I think this is hugely important that when you start a new group of people together a new church planned you thought you do have to have some conclusions about how you will manage yourselves how you will make decisions that's what governance is all about is how we'll agree to things together so that as a group we can move forward and

[0:36]
that's critical just because if you don't have that in place pressures and circumstances will force processes on you that you may not want so you've got all thought about what you want them to do so for instance if you've not thought about how we're going to make decisions in this place and you gather a group who are more democratically minded more perhaps Baptist or Brethren then congregational government will be the pressure upon you and if you've not actually worked out what you want it to be and different to that you'll be you

[1:08]
know called sorts of trouble or you as a strong personality as a leader might default simply to autocracy in order credit governance structure and is that what you want is that what's best you need to think through what's the end that I want this church to have is in terms of its management leadership decision-making processes so that we can intentionally proactively move towards there that's important so that you don't give default things happen it's important to so that as new people join

[1:40]
you they know what their joining and how this will work and whether they want to be in that or not do they want to be joining a church that's got a benevolent dictator or just a dictator and or do they want to join a kind of congregation like what is that so you need to make those decisions for new people who come in as well and I think just for good order you know for me it's important that we know together how we function so

[2:10]
that there's health in the way we operate but you begin you begin with the end in mind but don't begin with the end and that's to say in a church plant you're forming your culture and often starting with new people so we started with people who well lots of wonderful people who weren't aligned theologically many won't convert and certainly didn't have a shared vision about what church should be and so to to quickly move them into

[2:43]
leadership decision-making roles which was where I wanted to end but to do that too quickly would have derailed the church and I we've seen this actually in the Geneva network over the years that some guys who have planted churches with a conviction about eldership governance either a Presbyterian or a more Baptist kind of style eldership governance have begun with that end too quickly and have put in place it young men as elders who

[3:17]
weren't aligned who weren't mature who needed to be stepped down after three or four years in our context here it took us I think 12 to 15 years before there were sufficient shared vision and alignment together over what we were that a real jerry genuine giving over of authority to others could operate and I'm heartened in hearing someone like a John Piper actually talk in a similar

[3:50]
vein a few years ago he mentioned that though he's committed to an eldership governance model he he believed it took ten years in their context before they are willing to give over eldership to the people within the church now that's interesting I think in the Australian scene and setting it's a longer process because we're we're operating with men and women who are further back and so getting alignment with them takes a great deal longer if you operate within a denominational church plant structure I would be

[4:21]
looking to see the denominational structure providing some larger oversight of you as a person it's not possible to get that in place within the congregational setting typically but I would be looking to get some leadership governance eldership over you from the denominational setting and most of our denominations into neither function like that in the independent world which is the world operating we always encourage church plants to begin

[4:51]
with what we call a board of reference where so we now when we began I invited half a dozen men to meet with me monthly and provide accountability Authority together with so that I wasn't running off on my own and was freed from having to set up that structure within the church too early so the church itself was comforted knowing that was in place and it did take the pressure off them

[5:22]
feeling the need to make sure I was contained because they were confident there are other structures in place that facilitated that containing me yeah