The gospel reminds us that we are sinners, but also broken and fragile people. As people come to church they come with their various mental health issues. Keith and Sarah Condie discuss what is the role of the church in helping people.

• It is not our job to fix people.
• Church can be really good for people as they deal with the issues.
• The importance of watching and listening to people who might need help.
• Doing something is better than doing nothing.
• Don’t be afraid to ask “Are you thinking of taking your life?”
• Good questions can be “Are you OK?”, “What has helped in the past?”, “Can I pray for you?”
• Encouraging healthy habits can be underestimated.
• Care for yourself while you are caring for others.
• Caring for people is a form of growing disciples.

TOOLBOX:

• Lifeline: 13 11 14
• 12 Tips to Support Someone with Mental Health Challenges
• World Mental Health Day (10th Oct)
• World Suicide Prevention Day (10th Sept)
• Mental Health First Aid Course
• 312 On Getting Helpful Professional Help

CREDITS:
This Episode was brought to you by CCLI

The One Thing is brought to you by ⁠⁠Reach Australia⁠⁠

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TRANSCRIPTION:

The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.

We have a couple of special guests, Doctor Keith and Sarah Conde, who are founders and Co directors of the Mental Health and Pastoral Care Institute, a ministry of Anglican Deaconess Ministries in Sydney.They shared with us in a previous episode about steps we can take to make sure we’re taking care of our mental well being.

And if you haven’t heard that episode, make sure you go back and listen to it.It’s really, really great.But Keith and Sarah are back with us again.Welcome.Thanks so much, Pete, for having us back.Yeah.Thanks, Pete.Now we’re going to be talking a little bit more about how to take care of people with mental health issues, and I’ll come back to that in a moment, but OK, anyone who knows me knows one of the things I love asking you is what are you reading?

What are you reading at the moment?What are you guys reading at the moment, Sarah?Well, I just finished recently reading a book by Jacqueline Winspear.It’s a series about a woman called Maisie Dobbs, and this is the fun I think it was #20 But I have loved every single one of those books and been waiting and waiting, waiting for this last book to come out.

So.So this is a fictional series.It’s.A fictional series.It’s the whole series is starts before World War One and we’re now at the end of World War Two, so it covers quite an interesting time in history.OK, and set in London and about Maisie Dobbs becomes a private investigator.

But she’s a very interesting woman and I she’s a delightful person.And each book is very, it’s very different, but very interesting.OK, right.OK.Keith, what are you reading?Well, I just finished up in terms of fiction.

I read fiction at night before I go to sleep, but I read it on Kindle so I can never remember the names of the books or the authors.That’s the problem.Was a book about Cabramatta.OK, it was really interesting.Cabramatta in the 80s, nineties.Anyway, anyway, that was a great book.And I’m, I’m reading some really interesting stuff on trauma, which I know is a heavy topic, but there’s a woman in the States, a psychologist called Diane Langberg, who’s been working with people who’ve been impacted by trauma thought for over 40 years.

And she is remarkable.OK, she’s just she’s yeah, I’m loving her stuff.OK, If you want to find out those books, you’ll have to go back and listen to it again.I’m not going to put those in the show notes.But now as we come to this episode, I just want to highlight that we’re going to be pressing into some tough areas and you may want to take a moment to work out, is this the right time for you to listen to this episode?

You may want to come back and listen to it later.You may realise this is not the one to listen to while you’re driving and you might want to listen to it with someone else for support, so just keep that in mind.But for now, you press play on another episode of The One Thing.How can I look after the mental well being of those in my church or in my church team?

Today’s podcast is brought to you by CCLI.Do you need copyright, Peace of Mind or simple, comprehensive and affordable copyright solutions for your church?We’re here for you.Call CCLI on One 300 double 25400 or visit ccli.com.

And now back to the podcast.All right, Keith, tell us what are some of the things we can do to care for the mental well being of those at church or those around us at church?OK, so first thing I want to say is it is not our job to fix people, OK, Really important that we get that clear.

Sure, Otherwise we’re going to stray into territory that’s not our territory to stray into.But having said that, churches can make an enormous difference.In fact, when when we when we run our churches in a way that’s healthy and appropriate and reflects the truths we find in the New Testament that simply doing that will be good for people’s mental well being.

So let’s just think about a few things, right?Think about, think about the gospel and the truth of the gospel and how that shapes us and our perspective on life.You know, we are God’s beloved children.We are forgiven, we have hope, we have meaning, we have a purpose to our lives.

All of these things are profoundly helpful for our well being.So when we preach the gospel faithfully, we do people good, enormous good.So so there’s one thing.Then think about other stuff.Think about church community, right.

When we have, when we have a church that again, reflects what we’re called to in the New Testament, that to be a place where we, we love each other deeply from the heart, that again, there’s enormous good for people, people loved, cared for, supported, You know, we provide routines for people.

We give people the opportunity to serve.And you know what, when you do stuff for other people, that does a lot of good for you.Volunteering has been shown very beneficial for people’s well being.So a lot of what we do in church enormously helpful.So that that that’s the 1st thing to bear in mind.

I think the other thing we need to think about is we’ve got different people, different circumstances, different stuff going on and in as we seek to pastor and shepherd our people, let’s just think about their particular individual state needs, whatever.

I love that verse one Thessalonians 514, which just acknowledges that everyone’s different and need different stuff.So what does it say?It says warn those who are idle and disruptive, says encourage the disheartened, help the weak, be patient with everyone.

So it’s not one size fits all.So, so then I think that’s the the foundational thing I suppose to say here is, and we’re going to say some more detail in just a moment is let’s just do, when we do church well, this will help people.

And let’s be alert to the fact that those we’re seeking to care for and shepherd and grow in the faith, Different needs for different people.And that can show such a beautiful side of the gospel.So there was a previous congregation I was a part of.There was a guy who was there.

He had some mental health issues and it was just beautiful to watch people gather around him.And it wasn’t just left to a couple of people.Yes, just about everyone kind of had a relationship with him.But what was beautiful about it is that he was such an encourager.So he would just you go, oh, I’m praying this for you and I’m praying this for you.

And so it was, it was a very much complimentary and thing in that, you know, encouragement, but it just showed the beauty of the gospel in that moment that.Wonderful mutuality.Yeah, yeah, yeah.Of one another.Right.That’s exactly what I was trying to say.Yes.Yeah, yeah, Yeah.

So how can we recognise when others actually need that extra, you know, extra support in their mental and.Well, Sarah?Well, if we are loving others the way God loves us, we will actually have eyes that are open and we notice the people around us and we will see or we will notice that they are struggling or they perhaps need reaching out and supporting.

I think if people are going through stressful times, that often tips people into relapses.So knowing that about people, if they’re going through something hard or if they’re going through more than one hard thing at a time, well then just really look after them or look out for them and ask them.

Ask them how are you?How are you going?You you’ve noticed, you thought about them, you can pray for them, but then ask them how are you going?And if you’re working with people in a staff team, have you noticed changes in their behaviour, in their mood, if anything like that could be an, a flag or a warning that something’s not going right for them.

So you could, if you feel, you know, you could gently say, you know how you going and just see if they do need and listen to what they say.And there could be other reasons, but I think that’s certainly a good place to start.

That’s a good thing, isn’t it?Particularly in a staff team, because sometimes our staff, you know, that that’s the resource that people are drawing from and sometimes they’re not well looked after.So having us, if you’re in a team to be able to look after each other in that way, just keep an eye out.You doing all right?

You are we OK?Are you, are you OK?You know, Yeah.Yes, and and don’t assume that things are OK.And I I actually think the first thing is to actually be noticing and.Some people are very good at hiding stuff.Too.

That’s true, yeah.Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.OK, well, if you see someone experiencing depression or anxiety, what what are what are some of the specific practical steps that you can take to look after them?Sarah.The first thing I want to say is a lot of us are scared of saying or doing the wrong thing.

So do you know what we do?We don’t do anything.And when we do nothing, that communicates a a very strong message of no interest, no care.But I do think the place of common sense and kindness go a long way.

And we don’t have to be an expert to show real Christian love and care.So I think I’d say that really strongly to do something is better than doing nothing.I mean, we’ve got a few little suggestions.So you could start by asking how someone is feeling.

So, so start with that and then not only just asking, but then listening to what they’re saying.So actually communicating the interested.It’s not like you’re asking a like you’re in making a cup of coffee or how you’re going and off you go.

It’s no, I’m sitting down, I’m looking at you.I’m noticing I’m actually genuinely interested in how are you?And if it’s if it’s someone who’s good at hiding things, listening carefully just for those little hints that they may just be dropping may not be a big thing.Actually, I’m not doing well.Yes, but that’s so important, isn’t it?

Yes, and to, you know, to sort of ask, try and ask more questions that sort of draw them out, but not pushing them.I think being a safe person for them so that they which like it’s how do we avoid pushing someone to share more than they want to share?

So I mean, I think.It’s time for trust to build.Doesn’t it?Yeah.So I think I, I think, you know, it’s, it’s not being intrusive in our questioning.It’s like, you know, it just sometimes it’s just sitting with someone like and not saying much at all can be very helpful.

Being careful with the language.So rather than saying, well, what’s wrong with you, rather than saying, well, what’s happened, that’s you know, So asking questions like that, if the if you get a sense that they are really in an unsafe place, that they’re really doing badly, you can ask them the question that everyone’s scared to ask, which is are you thinking of taking your life?

This is when you actually really feel like things are not going well.And sometimes you’re not, you don’t need to go that, but sometimes you do.Some people are really scared of asking that question because they think that that will make them want to do it more.

Or you think, I don’t know what they’ll what I’ll say if they say, yes, I am.But actually sometimes that that actually enables them to say, well, yes, I am.And you can, you know, you can go through, but it’s often a cry for help.

Sure, if you feel out of your depth at that point, the best thing you could do is suggest that you ring lifeline together, which is and, and talk with them through that.And so don’t feel like you if you feel out of your comfort zone at that point.

Yep, ask for help.And the the fact.So I was just gonna say, the fact is all of us have a role in suicide prevention and simply asking that question, almost everybody who takes their life is ambivalent.That means they have reasons they want to die.

They also have reasons they want to keep living.And I read some really interesting stats on they did a study of people who have jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco and have survived, right?And of those of those survivors, nearly every single one said within the four seconds they had, they all thought I shouldn’t be doing this.

Wow.And so us asking the question, we can be the means to actually.Like a lifeline.A lifeline to them, yeah.So yeah.I was just gonna say it will the number for a lifeline is in the yes. 131114.Yeah, I want to suggest put that in your phone now so you’ve got it there and so you don’t have to muck around trying to find it.

Just put it in your phone right now and so that when you need it, it’s there.If you are listening to this overseas, you will need to find your own lifeline number, but that’s the one here in Australia.Sorry, Sarah, keep going.Yeah.So you can encourage them to seek professional help if that’s not something that they’re already doing and encourage them to see their GP if they, and in fact, if they’re really struggling, you can offer to make that appointment with them and say, well, would it help if I rang up and made that appointment if I went with you?

It just depends, you know, some people, you know, like if you feel like they do really need that help and they don’t have the support around them.So that’s for really people who you really are very worried about.You can ask them, I think sometimes if they’re in a really bad place and or you feel like they’re they’re down and not doing well, a question like what has helped them in the past is a really good question because it gets them to think about, well, what’s helped them and it gives them agency in OK, I know that going for a walk helped.

So even like them saying that, OK, well, why don’t we go for a walk now or when could you do that?Or actually spending time with a friend is helpful.So everyone will say something different, but it’s actually drawing on them.Oh yeah, that was helpful.And it then takes a conversation into a quite a positive place where you can actually start, you know, encouraging them to do that.

And you can ask them if they would be happy for you to pray for them or read God’s word.I, I often just have a like one or two verses from a Psalm that I’ll just read and pray.

But I’ll always ask because sometimes people are so down that they just don’t feel like they want that.But often they really appreciate that because they’re struggling to pray for themselves, and knowing that someone is praying for them and with them can be a very powerful thing to do.

That’s it is a powerful thing, isn’t it?Just to ask what can I do?And I remember asking that to someone, not because I had your wisdom, but because actually I was clueless.I had no idea.So I just said, what do you want me to do?Her response was interesting.She had a very strong anxiety thing.She said can we pray the Lord’s Prayer together?

Because it was, it wasn’t.I mean, she goes, it’s a prayer, I get that, but it’s actually reciting words that I know actually calmed her down.And so we learnt to do that.So as she got anxious, we would go away, we’d pray the Lord’s pray together and she would calm down.But I didn’t.I had no no idea unless I asked her that so.

Yeah, and and that’s good.And I mean another, you know, you if you ask if you wanna read the Bible or something, you can say, well, have you got a favourite passage?You know, again, it takes them back to, well, actually if you were to read this to me, yeah, that would be helpful.And I actually really like that.

And it sort of takes away from us feeling like we’re the expert, we’re the one, if we do this, it’s going to make them better because it’s not.It can be helpful.But yeah, it puts, I think it puts a lot of agency back into their hands actually.

I suppose just another couple of things to, to add to what Sarah said.We, we sort of, we got this sort of checklist of ideas and we, we’ve divided them up between the two of us.Just encouraging people in wise behaviour can be really helpful.You know, sometimes someone who’s experiencing depression, they’re struggling to get out of bed in the morning and just saying, oh, look, you know, do you want me to come around?

We’ll go for a walk together.And, you know, it’s so good that you’ve got up and had a shower because sometimes people really, you know, they’re stuck and they’re hard things to do.So just encouraging some of those healthy habits can be really helpful.Following people up, you know, just thinking if they’ve shared something fairly deep with you.

And then next time you see them, you completely ignore them.You know, when you’re down on yourself, that can be a message that can be very you know, that that can send another message to them.It’s not that helpful.But having said that, you don’t have to have a full on intense conversation every time you see them.

So, so just just you know, just saying, you know how I good to see you again.Thanks for sharing last time.I’m continuing to pray for you.It doesn’t have to be a deep and meaningful every time around.So.But it’s also, you’ve got to make some allowances as well, like, because someone who’s struggling with their mental health, they’re not going to be able to follow the usual social conventions.

So, you know, normally, you know, I ring someone and then they’ll ring me back or something like that.Sometimes they’re just not in that place to be able to do that.And so you’ve got to do all of the load.Yes.But that’s, that’s just part of what it needs to work, walk with someone through this.So yeah, yeah, yeah.And I think, I think, again, not our job to fix them.

No.You know, we encourage them to see the mental health professionals.Yep.But that idea of just walking beside.Fantastic.Yeah.So yeah, there there’s a few things there.The importance of taking care of yourself through all of this.Oh.

Yes, yes, sorry.I should have mentioned that.Yeah, yeah, We, we don’t like, don’t ever promise.Some people say I’ll be there for you whenever.None of us can do that and that again, then you’ll let them down and they’ll be disappointed.So just be really clear and say, look, I can, I, I can do this.

I can see you for an hour once a week and we’ll catch up and we’ll talk and we’ll pray together, whatever.And that that’s good for them and it’s also good for you.And I suppose the things we we spoke about in our last podcast about how do we look after our own mental well being, We’ve got to make sure those things are there in our life because lots of sort of partial involvement in people’s lives.

It can.Be quite exhausting.And I would also add particularly the younger pastors are and and if you’ve got young people in your churches, I think we’re very tied to our mobile phones and not having an off button for them.

But I’d be really clear and say, I don’t have my phone on at night and not feeling like you should have your phone on at night in case they need to ring you because that’s not good for you and it’s not good for them.So, but to be very clear and say if you really need help, you need to ring Lifeline.

And I’m, I’m, I won’t get your message if you if you my phone’s off.My PM.Sure.And I won’t look at it again until 7:00 in the morning.And I you can be very clear about that.So what I’m hearing from you is, is a very strong sense of I will walk with you through some of these, but I’m not here to fix you.

I’m not your doctor, I’m not your psychologist.I’m here as your person who’s entering into that Dark World with you voluntarily because I love you.But I’m not here to to solve it.No.Have I got that right?Absolutely yes.Well, that I think that takes me into the world of church like how do how do we speak about mental well being in our churches and, and what’s some of the the things that are going to be helpful there?

There’s this guy called John Swinton, who’s a, he’s probably the world foremost theologian thinking about things like mental health, disability, dementia, stuff like that.And he’s got, he talks about this is not his idea.He drew it from someone else, but he talks about the difference between thin description and thick description.

So let’s take a person who’s experiencing depression to say you are a depressive, you know, to equate the diagnosis with the person.That’s a diminishing of the person.We don’t want to use that sort of language.That’s when we’re really careful how we talk about it.

And what we want to do is, again, not even think, OK, this person has depression, that means they’ll be like this.How do you know that you get to know the real person?And this is what thick description is about.We don’t, we don’t just think, we don’t think in terms of a diagnosis.

We think in terms of a human being.And I want to get to know this human being and what are their particular, you know, challenges and hopes and dreams and fears.And as we do that and enter into their life.And that’s a very important way for us to think as as pastors and in the church community more generally, we don’t want to speak or act in ways that make people feel like they’re they are other or they are lesser, you know, human dignity, you know, everyone made in the image of God.

This is a beautiful, wonderful truth.We’ve really got something to offer our world in a world that that does diminish certain people who are not, you know, like us.So get to know that actual person.And I think in our preaching, those of you who preach just just assume, well, this is true, right?

In the people that you are speaking to, there are going to be people experiencing significant mental health challenges, probably at least one in five.And so, so let’s just be alert to that.And let’s talk about mental health as just one of those aspects of life, the adversities of life that we all confront.

And how does the Word of God touch upon that?I think it’s really important for us to be able to do that, Sarah.You Another way of speaking about it is to run seminars around mental well being and mental health and mental ill health.

There’s really interesting World Day, so on the 9th of September is World Suicide Prevention Day and the 10th of 10th of October is World Mental Health Day.So doing something around that time, like even if you just prayed for people’s mental health on the around the 10th of October, on our website, we’ve got resources for churches, but we’ve got a pack for World Mental Health Day and World Suicide Prevention Day.

You can actually download it and it’s got prayers and it’s got suggestions of things that you could do and some videos that you could watch.I actually think that’s a really good way of raising awareness and starting conversations.You as pastors and church people on church teams, model care to your congregation and that can often communicate more than our words.

I would say that you can do things like encourage your congregation to ask questions that invite genuine responses during your times together, like at morning tea.So you could say in church, why don’t we all ask the person we’re talking to, how can I pray for you this week and then actually pray for that person there And then rather than just saying, oh, well, I will pray for you.

But that models something deeply caring and profound.But it opens a door for someone to be able to say something at a level that they’re comfortable to share.And over time, I think people will share more deeply and we can care and look after each other in that way.

I think how we speak about things like if someone’s not at church, the way we talk about that can make someone feel really guilty like that they have to be at church.And it’s a terrible thing if they’re not or if they’re not at their Bible study group.

And actually, I think that it doesn’t understand how hard it is for some people to actually get there.And even if parents not getting there because of their children, like sometimes it’s a struggle to get there and notice when they do get there or just saying, I’ve noticed you haven’t been around and we’ve really missed you.

So thinking about how you raise that question.And even when they do get there to kind of go, that’s a great ministry.Like you well done, you’ve got there.That’s rather than, well, you’re not serving and you’re not going to Bible study and you’re not do let’s focus on all the things you’re not doing, but to to focus on, you know what you got here.

That’s that’s a great thing.Yeah.So let’s let’s celebrate that moment.I think that’s absolutely right.And it’s really not our job to make people feel worse about themselves or more guilty because deep down they want to be there.It’s just they can’t.

Yeah.That’s right.OK, I want to ask a question and it’s going to make me sound a little bit heartless, and I don’t know how to do this without sounding heartless.But how do we, I wonder how we want to care for people who’ve got mental health issues.On the other hand, we’re actually here about building disciples and caring for people with mental health issues.

It takes time, it takes resources, but our goal is to build disciples.How do we balance those two things without being completely heartless?Yeah, no, great question, Pete.Let me say it again.It’s not our job to fix people, OK?

So let’s be really clear on that.And we want to reach the lost and we do want to build, grow disciples in Christ.OK, But how do disciples grow and what does that growth look like?OK, we’re, we’re, we’re all located in a context and the context of our day to You’re walking alongside them, the one and others of the New Testament, you know, point to this responsibility that we actually bear for each other, this mutual care that is, this is what helps us grow in Christ.

And so I suppose I, I don’t see, don’t see this genuine love and care as being peripheral to discipleship.This is discipleship, I think that’s actually taking place And and and.I actually think, you know, when you’ve got someone with mental health issue, giving them an appropriate amount of responsibility in serving, it’s going to help the church because you’re they’re serving the church, but it’s also going to help them.

And there’s a, there’s a lot of research into how being a volunteer has actually helped people with different mental health issues.Yes, yeah, yeah.For sure.So I really think, I really think, you know, and again, thinking about as we grow people, you know, a faithful disciple of Christ within the Christian community, they we, we are people who do you know, we, we, we be the people that God has called us to be.

And we do love one another and we do bear one another’s burdens.And that’s part that’s living out the Christian life that’s growing in Christ.So yeah, I don’t think these two things are completely removed from each other.OK, well this is the one thing let’s get to the one thing that we’ve learned about caring for those with the mental well being of others.

Sarah, what’s the one thing you’ve got?I would say don’t underestimate the impact of a small gesture towards someone and the place of kindness.If we can all be kind to one another that is is really helpful.

Yeah, doesn’t have to be a big thing.Small thing.That’s very powerful.Thank you.Yeah, Keith.Not our job to fix.We walk alongside and as we walk alongside, can I just this is this is the other half of the one thing.OK, It’s just a half thing.It’s a half thing.Keith’s a preacher, so you go.

It’s one thing, but it’s got 3 sub points.Let’s go.When somebody’s significantly unwell, we need a team, OK, more than one person.Thank you.That’s really helpful.Thank you both for your wisdom, for your ministry, for your insights.Thank you very much for joining us.Thanks for having us, Pete.

Thanks, Pete.All right, in the toolbox.As I said, we’ve got the phone number for Lifeline.Make sure you put it in your phone 131114.We’ve also got some links from the Mental Health Institute, particularly 12 tips to support Someone Experiencing Mental health Challenges.Some other things on mental care, we’ll put in a link to the pack for mental health World Mental Health Day, make sure I get that right around the right way and and also I packed for Suicide Prevention day.

We’ll also have some other links from some of our previous episodes on the one thing, particularly from Lauren Arrington.And I also want to put in a link to mental health first aid.We didn’t talk about that much in the episode, but that can be a really helpful thing to be trained in, particularly if you’re in youth ministry or part of a ministry team to get your mental health first aid certificate.

Now, if you’ve got a topic you want us to cover, you want to give us some feedback, you just want to let us know that you’ve been listening, make sure you email [email protected] dot AU on P Hughes chat soon.