Q&As with Women in Ministry in 2024
By Liz Fong
The timeline for some people is that they meet their spouse, get married, and prepare to have kids. (It’s not everyone and we love people who are single or kids is not an option for them!). But some people find themselves about to have kids, but are at a congregation that does not have a kids program.
Geoff and Wendy Lin from Holy Trinity in Adelaide talk about how they prepare couples for kids. Here is what they cover:
TOOLBOX:
“Even when I am old and gray, do not forsake me, my God, till I declare your power to the next generation, your mighty acts to all who are to come. (Psalm 71:18)
61: Marriage and Ministry with Keith and Sarah Condie
98: Marriage and Ministry with Dan and Teresa Lee
Webinar with Paul Tripp, Craig Tucker and Ruth Sheath
CREDITS:
This Episode was brought to you by the Reach Australia Team Development Program
The One Thing is brought to you by Reach Australia
To pray for Reach Australia, join our WhatsApp Group.
For ideas or questions please email [email protected]
To support the Reach Australia Online Library head here.
TRANSCRIPT:
The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
Good day RP Hughes and welcome to the one thing podcasters on you.
0:18
Be one solid practical tip for Gospel Centre ministry every week and the one thing’s brought to you by Reach Australia.We would love to see thousands of healthy, evangelistic and multiplying churches all over our country, including great staff teams.We have a great team development programme that we’re running at the moment.
0:36
If you’d like to find out more, jump on the website and have a look at that.It’s really great programme.Now we’ve we asked for suggestions at the end of each episode and you bought them.And one of the biggest requests, as we mentioned last time, was the transition from different demographics to others in our ministry kind of platforms.
0:55
Today we’re going to be talking about transitioning couples and who then have families.And now I realise that’s not for everyone.We love people who are single.We love couples who don’t have kids.But the timeline for many people is that they go from an evening congregation, meet someone, get married, have kids, and then we’ll what do they do?
1:16
Especially if there’s no kids programme at that particular congregation.Now we have with us today, talking through this is Jeff and Wendy Lynn from Holy Trinity in Adelaide.They help prepare couples for marriage among one of the many other ministries that they do.Jeff, Wendy, thanks for joining us.
1:33
Thank you, Very glad to be here.Now I should point out, Jeff and Wendy and I and my wife, we actually met each other at a marriage enrichment thing about, I don’t know, 100 years ago was it?Well, at least 25. 25 Yeah, so and so, yes, with that, that’s our, our whole relationship is all based on marriage enrichment, which has been great to see over the years.
1:58
Do you guys have any fond memories of that one?Pete’s really just set me up for this one because it was a terrific weekend.Both Pete and Audrey and Wendy and I have been married for, you know, in the first couple of years did a terrific weekend.It finished at the end with the opportunity for a group hug.
2:15
And let’s just say Pete was the one who cracked first, and I’ve never let him forget it.Yeah, you, you have not.We, we caught up again recently.We haven’t seen each other for years and years.The first thing you did was raise that thing off.You folded on that thing.
2:30
So yes.But for now, you press play on another episode of The One thing Why Jacqueline can’t let things go.No, sorry.The One Thing helping couples transition from families, from couples to families ministry.Today’s podcast is brought to you by the Reach Australia Team development Programme.
2:48
Running over two years, this intensive programme helps ministry leaders and ministry teams develop personally and professionally.If you’re interested in the team development programme from Reach Australia, even if it’s early days for you, get in touch, head to the Reach Australia website and look under Healthy Churches.And now back to the podcast.
3:08
All right, now let’s start with just the idea of the, the way that couples when they have kids dynamics change when when you’re a couple, you’re kind of a family, but there’s a sense where there’s not really much you can do to prepare for having kids and how that changes you as a couple.
3:26
But Wendy, how?How can you prepare or how do you prepare couples as they begin to have kids?Yeah, I mean, you’re right, it’s a massive transition and there’s many, in many ways you can’t really prepare for it.But on the other hand, you can keep in mind some of the things that will come up and be aware of how that might change things.
3:48
So if you’re thinking about church and the commitment to church, I think we would, I mean, at any stage of anyone’s life, we want to encourage them to have good patterns.So, you know, regular church attendance, being part of a Home group, prioritising devotions daily if possible, but at least regularly with the Lord.
4:07
And I think if, if we have those as our goals throughout all of life, we need to think about what happens when we change stages.So you know, when you when you have kids, everything goes out the window in a lot of those areas.Or it can.
4:22
So it’s being willing to be creative.So you’ve got the big principles in place of what we want to get to church and we want to meet with God’s people and worship together.Yet it’s harder than it used to be and acknowledging that, but keeping, keeping making those types of things a priority.
4:42
So I think it’s I think it’s being creative, but also having big goals that you want to hang on to is part of it.And it sounds like setting really good habits before you have kids so you can sort of keep living those habits out when the kids come along.Yeah, I think you’re right and it’s and it’s part of being a couple.
4:58
You would hope that you are encouraging one another to develop those patterns so that you’re encouraging one another to godliness and being committed to the church community so that by the time you know, God willing, a child comes along, you’ve already got that habit well in place.
5:14
So there’s no question on Sunday about do we go to church?We go, I mean it’s tricky and someone might be in the cry room or out with a baby the whole time, but you’re still prioritising that community that you’re part of the.Importance of living out habits.
5:30
It’s a, it’s a big, big thing, but let, let me move.So I want to focus just at the moment in the terms of the transition of the church and ministry level.Now let’s just assume because I know not every church, well, every church is slightly different, but most churches that I, I’ve come across, they tend to have an, an evening service for younger people and couples and then the kids ministries really set up for the morning.
5:56
How will this change of congregation?How does that work?When and how should that happen?And and Jeff, how have you helped people prepare for that transition?Yeah, thanks, Pete.It’s, it’s can be a tricky 1, I think.So I, for about a decade, I was an evening church pastor and you know, it’s really lovely when people do meet, marry and fall pregnant.
6:21
And there’s that slightly awkward conversation that you have with them at that point saying, you know, you do realise that eternal youth is a dream that you can’t hold onto anymore.You know, that you love the evening congregation.But whatever you think, the reality is you’re not going to be here indefinitely.
6:37
If nothing else, because nighttime is not the time to have kids out.You can go with babies for a short season, but you’re never going to be here long term.So you kind of, I want to raise the question early with a couple about just being honest with themselves about the fact that life is changing.
6:55
There’s grief with that.There’s also excitement.Do you have that conversation when you find out they’re pregnant?Is that?Is that how early it is?Yeah.So typically, you know, couples that we marry, that we do the marriage prep for, we always follow them up when they fall pregnant.
7:12
And that’s not all the couples obviously in our church, but whatever, you know, whether or not we married them.Yeah, we definitely I I try and have that conversation early into pregnancy so that they’re ready for the fact that they’re going to have to make what is in effect a decision to change church.
7:29
It might still be on the same, you know, part of the same overall church, but it’s a whole new set of relationships.And yeah, you know, there’s there’s different schools of thought as to when is the best time.If you go too early, in a sense, you cut yourself off from the relational context that you’ve already got deep relationships in.
7:49
You leave it too late.And yeah, everyone knows that the first few months of having a newborn, even despite good habits and good intentions, it can be hard to get to church every week.So it just, it blows out the timeline to build those relationships.So I’d love to say I have the perfect date.
8:05
It would be, you know, 36.3 weeks into pregnancy, but it it doesn’t work like that so.Yeah, because I wanted to ask, Yeah.Is there, is there a perfect date?So 36 point, sorry, was it 36.2?Yep, that was it.Hold on, Nick.As always, you completely latched onto the one thing I was trying not to say.
8:21
No, no, I look it, it, it varies according to the couple.And now we’re, we’re Christians who believe in freedom and people’s general wisdom.So you know, OK with that.But generally what I do is I just try and point out to couples here are the consequences of the choice you make.
8:38
So if you think you’re going to hang on for a long time afterwards, you actually will find it a likely a disempowering experience over the first few months.If you’ve stayed too long in your previous congregation, if you move too early, you might have a sense in which you haven’t been able to say goodbye to people as well.
8:57
But you know, you lay out the options and you know, we believe in grace and freedom.So people make their own choices in the end.I think however, whenever people do it though, it’s you want it to be part of a conversation that they’ve been able to think through and you want to farewell them properly from their previous congregations.
9:15
So there is a moment where you can acknowledge this is a change and it’s a good change.And you know, no one stays in any congregation for the entirety of their life.So this is, this is normal.But there’s a moment to market.So it’s not like they just drift away from one.
9:31
It’s sort of it’s all over, but there’s an opportunity to mark that time, which I think is helpful for people as they process change.Hmm.I, I think also having that public farewell, it helps other people as they’re processing it as well going ohh, OK, I, I saw that generation ahead of me and they were farewell.
9:50
So I realise what’s coming as I’m walking down that path as well.Yeah.Now I realised we could get into the question of what about couples who don’t have kids or single people and where does that go?I think we’ll just park that one for today and just keep working with the couples who do have kids.
10:06
Not saying that they’re not important, but we may come back and revisit that in another episode.But yeah, changing congregation.It’s it’s, it is about changing that relational network, as you mentioned.Jeff, what are some of the ways that you think ministers can, I guess, be aware of and help people settle into that new congregation, especially relationally?
10:26
Yeah, thanks, Pete.I mean, the the sense of a warmth of welcome is obviously important.Most churches do the basic things really well like enabling meal rosters and, you know, making sure that you keep they’re very well meaning grannies away from the babies on the Sunday morning who otherwise would grab them and never return them.
10:45
So you know, that kind of stuff.I, I think for me, I’ve one of the things I want to say to any, any particularly first time parents who have a baby is I just want to make it really clear that in a non condescending way, how thrilled we are when they make it to church on a Sunday morning, because often a lot has gone in for them to get there.
11:07
So it’s a bit of a joke between Wendy and me.For all your listeners, I’m the touchy feely 1.She’s not.So, you know, when, when people turn up first time parents with babies, I’m the one who ends up holding the baby, not her.But I partly that’s because I figured, well, you know, what if it means that I hold the baby during the service for a bit so that mum and dad can both be in even for a short time.
11:32
You know, they’re things that that express, we understand that it’s not straightforward, but that you’ve made an effort to be here and you encourage us just by your perseverance.And, you know, I think that helps for people to know that the other thing is that, yeah, it it’s good for, at a practical level, just to help people who are changing congregations get a quick sense as to how things are done differently in the new place.
12:02
Yeah.If you are part of a church where you have an evening church and that’s where you’ve been all your life, and suddenly you go to the morning, you go from being a senior to being a junior.And just the way in which things happen can take a bit of time to work out, which you can sort of feel a bit embarrassed to ask about.
12:18
I mean, it’s the same church, right?But yeah, I think therefore taking the time just to step people through that no one’s ever going to be unhappy with a high level of information that they can then sift through.Yeah, that’s, that’s actually a really helpful point, isn’t it just that congregations, even though, even though they’re part of the same church, can be very, very different, have very different cultures, different ways of doing things.
12:40
And again, it’s really helpful.Just as you know, when you’ve got a young baby, your capacity is really, really limited, especially your capacity to, you know, get to know people, get to know, build those new relational networks.Jeff, you’ve obviously, you obviously have a conversation with people quite early on.
12:58
I I’m, I’m just wondering whether a lot of other ministers just kind of let this, you know, just meander on.In fact, I think I was talking to a guy today and he was, I mentioned what we’re recording and he just went, oh, yeah, I don’t even think about that.How much do you think ministers should well, gospel workers should be involved in having that conversation, helping the transition.
13:19
Yeah, I mean, that’s you’re opening up a broader question around what’s the role of a minister in a church.And it’s, you know, Visions 4 is pretty clear.It’s not to do everything, but it’s to equip the Saints who works of service.So, you know, part of it, I think, is helping identify the people who will enable transitions really well.
13:38
That’s often another couple that’s just a few steps ahead, maybe with infant children right now rather than babies.They know what the new couple is going through.They’re the ones who really best to walk alongside them.But at the same time, I think it is important that you know what what the minister says from the front and says publicly sets a tone which enables others to flourish and to be able to then exercise the ministry of the whole body on behalf of the whole body.
14:08
Yeah.And even the little things that the minister does can make a big difference.I was thinking about this the other day in our church.In one of our family gatherings, there was a young baby that was squawking away a little bit.I do my very best to never ever turn around because I know that if I turn around and look at them, everyone else feels either a permission or something around that.
14:33
So again, just trying to lead by example because in the end, I’d much rather that the family be there in church with their baby than they’re not coming to church because they think that they might be disruptive.That’s the kind of dilemma I’d rather deal with.So.Yeah, yeah, Wendy, do you think that I realise, you know, mums having kids like that, that’s a big thing.
14:57
I, I saw this meme the other day that, you know, the mum saying I breastfeed my, my baby because my husband can’t and my husband sleeps because I can’t.They tend to carry the big load there.Is it, is it harder for them to transition both in terms of, I mean, there’s a both in terms of parenthood, but also in transitioning in congregations as well.
15:17
Do they find that there’s a lot of change for them?Do they do you think they find it harder than Dad’s?I mean, it really depends, Pete, doesn’t it?I mean, the transition to parenthood I think for both is massive.But I, I think I would probably say that on average, it’s, it’s a bigger transition for mum.
15:37
And that’s just the reality of biology, isn’t it?You know, there’s a pregnancy, there’s birth, there’s breastfeeding.If that happens and if, if she then is the primary carer, it is a massive transition.Obviously, if dad becomes the primary carer, perhaps it’s a bigger one for him at that point.
15:53
So I mean, the transition to parenthood is big.And I think in our churches, we want it.It happens so regularly and it’s such a joy.But maybe sometimes we don’t acknowledge the massive change that people are going through.And it’s it’s, you know, it, it, it plays at your identity about how you now describe yourself and there’s just all sorts of things going on.
16:16
So I think maybe being a bit more aware of the big changes for people at this stage of life.And I mean, we’re all aware of the risks of, you know, things like post Natal depression.So the community can really be helpful here.Yeah, particularly as, I mean, I know, I know for us here, we have a number of Adelaide people, but we have a huge amount of people from Interstate and internationally here.
16:38
And so they’re not with their normal networks.So the church becomes the family.Sure.And that’s really important support network thinking about transitioning to congregation.Obviously that’s a slightly smaller transition than the whole thing of parenthood, but sure.I think it depends how challenging or harder it is.
16:58
I think it depends on, you know, how involved mum or dad get and their personalities, how much time they have to invest.But I think if, if you’re in a place where you know, if mum is the primary carer, if there’s some type of woman’s group or a play group, I think actually often she’ll meet people sooner, right?
17:19
And she’ll be fed into a network, if it exists sooner perhaps, than he might be, right?And so, yeah, I don’t know, being obviously it happens in different places.But yeah, I sort of think that often she may be taken care of if the system’s already in place, sure to support her.
17:39
OK.What do you think, Jeff?Yeah, I think, I think Wendy’s comment about particularly for mums who are, if they are the primary caregiver once the baby is born, that is a significant and I’m a really big change.I remember Wendy coming home a couple of years in after we’d had children and starting that phrase.
17:58
And I remember her saying she realised for the first time ever in her life that she was now expected to introduce herself as mother of not as you know, any of the many other things that describe, let alone as the obviously child of God, but that that was just, yeah.
18:15
It made her realise, oh this is a different world that I live in and I think I watch as some of our young mums, they grapple and wrestle with that because there is a shift.Now of course the underlying identity descriptor of us is as adopted child of God and that never changes.
18:30
But the phases and seasons we go through, it can be difficult.So I I think of a young mum in our congregation who I think in many ways resisted the idea of joining the the ladies Bible study that we read on Tuesday mornings.She kind of put it off for probably a year or so.
18:49
And I, I think there was a little bit of that uncertainty about, you know, is that who I want to be identified as a big part of and then gave it a go.And she swears by it as the best thing ever.And, you know, she’ll be an advocate of it and a supporter of it and a leader of it for years to come, even when she moves out of that stage.
19:07
So, yeah, but it is it’s really tricky.And just being patient with people, like Wendy said, the full time, sorry, the primary carer often gets more opportunities faster than the spouse.And so again, working out how they’re supported, just at a different rhythm and different tempo is important, I think.
19:27
Yeah, yeah.And I think that’s that’s a good thing because that primary give out, yeah, as you say, they’re, they’re, they’re changing identity, they’re changing their relational networks.If they were someone who worked, they don’t have those networks anymore.They’re they’re yeah.But it’s great to see, you know that young mums actually support each other and to have that relationship and that network.
19:46
So it’s great that that those ministries exist.When you let me go on a little bit further, because in, in terms of how do you, are there other things that that ministers can do, churches can do to, to help couples prepare for that, that that phase of becoming a family?
20:03
Yeah.I mean, as, as Jeff said, I think at the beginning, we, we do meet with couples that we already have a personal relationship through having prepared them for marriage who are becoming parents.And that’s a, that’s a lovely time to sit back and think a little bit big picture about spiritual life, marriage, parenting expectations, things like that.
20:24
So in an ideal world, it would be wonderful, I think, if that happened with all new parents and if there was a way for to set up some type of, you know, mentoring between couples that are a couple of stages ahead.Maybe they’ve got primary schoolers or something that they can meet with new parents and just talk through and just share the, you know, the ups and downs and what’s normal and walk alongside them in the middle of it.
20:52
I think, too, as we think about families, I mean, we have to be careful that we don’t, we don’t let the family become the idol in our lives.You know, like we wanna, I think we actually wanna push back on all my energy and all my attention goes into my family and this and this is now who I am.
21:10
Yeah.And who we are because, you know, as, as we say, we actually are primarily children of God.And we’re part of a much bigger family that’s our than than our biological family.We’re part of a spiritual family.I mean, you know, Jesus talks about his brothers and sisters really being the ones who are following him and with him rather than his biological family.
21:32
So we need to, we need to have that bigger picture.I had an interesting conversation with someone once that was about to become a parent and they said they were they were thinking that it was now an opportunity, like they were losing ministry opportunities by becoming parents.
21:47
I think they’ve been involved in youth group.And so it was a natural think of something’s going to have to change.But I wonder if maybe part of it is encouraging new parents as they move into this stage that parenting itself is a ministry.
22:05
You’re not actually losing ministry opportunities in this season.You’re just focusing them at a particular moment, you know, into raising the disciples of Christ that are in your family.So there’s a tension there, isn’t there?You like that.That’s part of your role, but it’s not.We don’t want it to make it into an idol either.
22:22
Yeah, I was gonna, if I can impress you a little bit harder on that, you know, how can you, how do you encourage a young mum who’s basically her whole world is when they’ve got a young baby, Everything is, you know, feeding, bathing, changing nappies, trying to get some sleep somewhere.
22:40
How does it, how do you stop kids becoming an idol when, when the whole world is wrapped around that?Is there is there anything you can do to encourage it or is it just a season that you need to get through?I think the those early months are, are a season.There’s a there’s a reality that caring for a very young one, actually, that is your job at that point.
23:00
But but your job doesn’t have to become your idol, does it?You know, like you can still be tasked for a role and and serve faithfully in it without it becoming the be all and end all of what drives you.So maybe that’s the difference.
23:16
So yes, you’re still that is entirely what you should be doing.That’s the role you’ve been given for this season, but particularly as the years go on and it plays out, you see it’s been, you know, is the family always first?Is everything, is everything about that all the time.
23:32
And maybe that’s the time to start start thinking through those issues of priorities.And I just hearing you speak there, I can also think it also it affects the way you pray and you know how you’re praying for your child and seeing your your service of your child as a ministry is a is a yeah, maybe another way of just thinking that through as well.
23:55
Yeah, absolutely.Guys, this is the one thing what’s what’s Jeff, I want to ask you, what’s the one thing that churches need to know about helping couples transition from the couple world to family ministry?Yeah, thanks, Pete.So particularly for the church family now rather than the little unit that’s just to be about to get bigger with the birth of a baby.
24:18
I think to come back to the point that Wendy was making earlier, yes, God in his kindness puts us in biological families.But the family that we belong to in Jesus where he’s the eldest brother and the first born son and we have the same Heavenly Father.That’s actually the main family that we have and always belong to.
24:38
I think, you know, when you’re then thinking about it in those terms, actually what families care about is they care about every age and stage and they care about the ongoing, I guess, growth and flourishing of that family from one generation to the next.
24:55
So if that’s the case, then I just want to encourage all of our churches to see that it’s the whole church’s privilege of raising the baby and not just their biological parents.And that’s not to say that we all are involved in every part of it, but that’s something that we all care about.
25:13
And therefore that’s the thing that we pray for and that’s the thing that we celebrate and that’s the thing that we encourage.So, you know, we all know what happens when parents who are affluent and successful want the same for their kids.Very quickly, childhood years becomes a track or a pathway to worldly success.
25:37
And you know, there’s there’s benefits from that in some ways, but who cares in the end.The main thing is that we are raising the next generation of disciple makers.And you know, to do that means, therefore, I think the whole church having as a priority.
25:54
How do we bring up the next generation to love the Lord as we do?And you know, that could be we serve in kids ministry.That could be that we’re encouraging of parents in making godly and wise decisions for their charge, for their raising of their kids.
26:11
There’s a verse that particularly for me really stood out a number of years ago when I came across it.It’s from Psalm 71 and in it and verse 18, the prayer is even when I’m old and grey, do not forsake me, my God, till I declare your power to the next generation, Your mighty acts to all who are to come.
26:34
And that lovely picture of how it’s the responsibility of this generation to pass on the gospel to the next one.Because at a really crude level, once it stops, disciple making stops.So, you know, that’s that’s the kind of brief and privilege that we have.
26:52
All right, I’m gonna, I’m gonna.I asked for the one thing.Jeff gave me a whole bunch of things.But I’m gonna, I’m gonna.Just gonna.So what you’re saying, Jeff, is the one thing is that it takes a church to raise a disciple making child?Yeah, it’s a good summary page.That’s excellent.
27:08
OK, so the in the toolbox, we actually don’t really have a lot on parenting we’ve realised.So I’m really glad that Jeff, when you’ve been able to join us and we’re going to try and add some more as we go along.Do have a couple of old episodes there from on marriage and ministry from the Condies, Sarah and Keith.
27:27
We also have, I dug out an old seminar from Paul Tripp and Craig Tucker and Ruth Sheath that they discuss marriage and church planting particularly.So I thought that’d be great once I’ll put that in there.And of course, that verse that Jeff has mentioned is there in the toolbox.
27:43
Jeff, Wendy, thank you so much for joining us.Really appreciate your time.No, it’s been lovely.Thank you.And of course, if you’ve got a topic you want us to cover, if you’ve got some feedback you want us to hear, just email us resources at reachaustralia.com dot AU.Thank you so much to everyone who does email.
27:59
We we do read them.We do go through them.So thank you for that.Make sure you check out the new resource page.I’m Pete Hughes, chat soon.
