Youth and young adults have unique challenges. Karl Bonner from Northlight Anglican Church shares:

• Changes from school to post-school: from programmed to self-initiated
• Church provides constancy when there is a lot of change
• Effects of COVID on people leaving school
• Differences between adults and young adults
• Young adults are less likely to conceal their sins, but are less likely to continue in good habits?
• Appropriate levels of responsibilities
• How to teach them in ways that leaves them wanting more

TOOLBOX:

247 Youth Ministry

The Ecosystem and Youth Ministry

The Leadership Pipeline ebook

CREDITS:
This Episode was brought to you by Crossbeam Communications

The One Thing is brought to you by ⁠⁠Reach Australia⁠⁠

To pray for Reach Australia, join our ⁠⁠WhatsApp Group⁠⁠.

For ideas or questions please email ⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠

To support the Reach Australia Online Library head ⁠⁠here⁠⁠.

TRANSCRIPT:

The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.

Today we’re going to be looking at, I think one of the key ones and that is the transition from youth to young adults.Today we got a great guest, Karl Bonner.Karl has a great guest.You are a great guest.Okay, all right, yeah, take that other guest.That’s right.Yeah.

One of the things I I love about Carl is he’s got some very unusual hobbies and.Very creative hobby yourself What No.No, what what’s what’s your hobby at the moment?What are you?What are?You working on I’m I’m doing kind of antique television repair has been my fixation.

OK, so I’ve taught myself, you know, circuitry and all sorts of things, but I’ve I’ve been buying up old CRTTVS.Are there any out there to buy?Yo, heaps, heaps.And they go cheap.Actually, people are giving them away.OK, if you can pick them up, they weigh about 80 kilos sometimes.So, but yeah, no, I’ve been, I’ve been picking up old CRTTVS, fixing them up and then intending to watch them, but then just getting another one and fixing it up.

Are you going to sell them or?I sold one to a friend who’s picking it up today, actually OK, but I’ve run a $200.00 loss on it because I’m a terrible businessman.So.But I think the upside is he’ll have it at his house.So when I go over, he’s got a cool TV.If you want to buy a CRTV, then come contact us.

We’ll put you in contact with Carl and you’ll be able to get one.But that’s not what we’re talking about today.Today you have pressed play on another episode of The One Thing Transitioning from youth to young adults.Today’s podcast is brought to you by Crossbeam Communication.

Reach and impact more people with help from Crossbeam Communications, your trusted Christian communications agency delivering powerful storytelling and marketing solutions rooted in faith.Visit crossbeam.com dot AU.And now back to the podcast.

All right, Karl, what I want to do is just go back and and look at if you, you’ve got somebody who is leaving school, they are going through a huge number of changes.What what are some of the changes that they’re experiencing?Well, I, I think the first thing I like you have that memory of being in school and like you have that tearful farewell at the end of your 12 and you say we’re going to stay friends forever.

You know, we’re going to keep up.We’re going to and when you hit what I was going to say 30, but probably more like 23.How many of your school friends have you actually kept up with?And the answer is for men, usually two or three, for women, five or six.And on average, you know, the, the people that you kind of thought you’d spend the rest of your life with end up being kind of people that formed you but aren’t your community and your friends.

You realise it was kind of like a is there a word for when people go to gaol and they have to be around people and they think that they’re best friends, but then you finish and you’re not forced to be together five days a week, so.I’m sure there’s a word for it, I don’t know what it is.Because gaol is not five days a week, isn’t it?I don’t know.You go for weekends, but your whole world gets upended socially.

Yeah.So there’s the complete turnover of your social space.Your world isn’t as organised, so, you know, nobody tells you where to be at what times.Even in university, everything’s on your own clock.There aren’t extracurriculars that are kind of developing and nurturing all of your skills and passions.

So your whole world goes from being programmed by other people to being kind of self initiated.And the space you enter into is one of huge autonomy.Church almost uniquely provides programming and community constancy when everything else in the world tips up.

And that’s that’s a real privilege, I think because, and I say this to youth group kids when they’re in year 12 that, you know, look around the room and you think that your best friends at high school be your friends the rest of your life.But much more likely, if you commit to this room of people, you’ll still be seeing them at growth group in the week, you know, leading youth together maybe or whatever you’re doing to serve Sunday night church together.

You’ll have more constancy with this community of people than your school friends.And that’s worth something.And that that’s a really interesting point.So just to say part of my research for this podcast, I did talk to one of my kids who’s just finished year 12.They had a lot of really helpful things to say.

And they were saying that some people have really coped with the, that transition really well.Others, you can see they’re just, they weren’t ready to leave school.They weren’t ready to the change of routine.And so there’ve been a lot of changes and, and not having that Christian community has meant they’ve, they’re really a bit of a loss.

Yeah, well, that’s the COVID affected generation.So, you know, like kids that expected to have this kind of, you know, triumphal entry into university life and they hear about the great culture of being at, you know, uni with all their friends, but had the experience of a COVID affected programme where their classes were online or the whole social space is, is altered.

I think that’s kind of jarring.And, and I reckon through Sydney specifically, churches have seen a, a downtake of young adults wanting to do night time things or wanting to, you know, hang out late or wanting to do more social things, all probably because of, because of the way COVID is affected.

Because of the, the, the, the way that their social world has been changed.So, you know, they weren’t just going to the parties that they used to go to and they weren’t going out.And so they they just haven’t got that routine.Yeah.Well, I mean, from me, from finishing year 12 through November until, you know, a year from there, it was like a whirlwind.

And people remember because he was my minister actually at the time, But that that whole time of life is so full and you’re spending all this time with people.And so if you had that experience in or just out of lockdown, the norms and the habits that kind of set and formed for I think probably about a five year band of young adults, is, is is really different.

Yeah.What?What do?You think just moving, I guess a little bit forward there, What do you reckon is the difference between, say, a young adult and an adult?In fact, I had somebody, I was talking to our small group about this last night and one of their kids referred to it as adult light as opposed to adults.

He goes I and he was at school.He said I’m just not ready for adult light yet, let alone adulting.What do you reckon is that is like?So I, I want us to kind of work out what does it mean to be a young adult?But what is it?What’s the difference between a young adult and an adult I?Think if I start very wide, Yeah, and I noticed this.I’m in the pivot point because I’m 32.

So I’m a I’m a young parent in my way of thinking about church demos.And you unfortunately, are an old parent.I am, but I think the the pivot point that’s the the most important is when you shift from looking forward to looking back.And already I feel kind of nostalgic, You know, I’m rebuilding CRT television.

So I’m looking at my childhood and trying to rebuild it for my kids.But young adults are almost entirely looking forward and they’re at the early end of that.I mean, that doesn’t, you know, that keeps going.I am still to some extent like I’m thinking about what’s next.But when you’re 18/19/2021, you’re thinking so broad about what your possibilities are, what kind of person you want to be, what kind of life you want to live.

You’ve got really strong opinions about, oh, I would never be that or I don’t want to, you know, end up there.And then when you kind of have made your decisions and you’ve got the bed, you need to lie and you kind of think, well, I didn’t think I’d be here.But that’s that aspirational nature of young adulthood comes with a kind of turbulence, I think, in sense of self and a non rigidity.

And and so for church and faith, the really central question I think for young Christians is whether or not this is me.And if it is me, what kind of Christian am I, you know, am I one of the really conservative ones?Am I, you know, a Christian who’s not disengage in their faith?

But maybe I’m not really like putting my faith first?Like what kind of Christian am I and who am I looking at as I make that decision?AM.Am IA Christian like the the generation I’ve seen ahead of me or am I gonna be showing myself being distinct?The generation ahead of you is very diverse, right?

So you’re looking around at different churches.And I mean, the plebiscite illustrated this.Like lots of young Christians decided even if they wanted to stay in church, they wanted to go to a less conservative church, right?But then of course, I think people end up not in church at all often that way.But at the same time, there’s a diversity of Christians ahead of you when you’re a young person.

And that’s obvious.You’ve got your youth leaders that are very different than your parents, that are different than your minister.And you’re looking at all of those models and thinking about who, who you want to be and who you want to be like.And I think also you’ve got a a war of kind of like, am I being authentic?I know that’s something that I don’t.

I can’t remember the last time I worried about whether I was being authentic, but I know it was sometime in my early 20s.Yep, Yeah, you got.If you lead on a crew camp or something or a youth camp and you ask around the leaders, like what are you hoping to get out of camp?Everyone will say, oh, I just want to be really vulnerable, want to be really vulnerable.

And and authentic and.Authentic and yeah, that’s really important to young people and just watch the media like, you know, watch like any coming of age movie or maybe just be a bit discerning because some are a bit inappropriate.But or, or the young adult books that are out, it’s all about perception of self.

And you know, every young adult book is about like someone who is actually inwardly really interesting and intelligent, exciting.But you know, their outward perception and the way people see them is this really kind of mismatched thing and they have to prove themself.And I think that’s very.Universal so that that idea of just kind of working out who am I?

I’m no longer a child.I need to work out who I am.That’s a key part of being the young adult.Yeah.So let’s talk a little bit about how does that work out in the Christian world.Are there particular sins that you think as as young adults are dealing with this?Are there particular sins that they’re they’re wrestling with it.

The rest of the community, Christian community may not be wrestling.With yes or no, I think young people are generally not as good at concealing their sins.You know, if you look at the stats of when people have extramarital affairs or rates of substance abuse, it’s not true to say that young people are more likely to get really drunk or sleep around.

I think that’s a that’s a stereotype.But I do think it’s true that when young people sin, they sin in ways that are less discreet.I think that’s I think that’s true.And, and So what I’d want to kind of think about is whether or not we’re rightly identifying what the real risks are with young people as we as we think about their habits.

The real risk we have with our young people isn’t of course, of course it’s a problem if people are going to be sleeping around.Those are real sins that are real problems that real people do, of course, not saying that sort of thing.But the real dangers that are particular to young people that aren’t as common in older age Christians is that they’ll fall out of the habit of faith, they’ll fall out of the habit of church attendance, they’ll fall out of the habit of serving.

And that will set my my belief is that people leave church at all ages.But typically if you’ve hit 35 and you’re a regular church attender and have been your whole life, your odds of keeping up that for the rest of your life are quite good.But 18 to 23 is an absolute massacre.

It’s like, it’s like the little the baby turtles that hatch on the beach and you know, how many of them get to the water?The seagulls are sort of all eating them all.David Attenborough narrates the carnage, I think.Why do you reckon it is?Why, why, why?

Why is that the the carnage moment?Why is that?Why is the young adult moment that moment of the beach for those young turtles?Yeah, yeah, and and, and it really is I think, I think the stats are that in Australian churches, the only age that exceeds 18 to 21 in a drop off of church attendance is like 75 plus because of death.

And that that’s true.You you laugh, it’s a groom reality.But that’s I, there was some stats that Mccrindle did on this and that’s, that’s the time, that’s the pivotal moment.One of them I think is because the parental influence drops off and we can’t avoid that.We don’t want to change that.We don’t want parents to start running the lives of their 18 year olds.

No, that’s, that’s been something I’ve had to address as a parent.And yeah, I can’t say I’ve done it particularly well, but I.Have tried to wrestle, trying their best, but but you know, that’s that’s inherent to the the stage of life and you can’t do anything about that.One of them I think though, is the lack of programming.

So what happens when you finish youth group is that most churches have, I would call it like an evil Knievel ministry model, where as you’re kind of, you know, going through children’s ministry and youth ministry, there’s an increase in quality of service and programming that is intentioned for your age and stage.

And it’s ramping up and up and up and up.And then when you finish high school in the majority of Australian kind of evangelical church models, there’s not an intention pathway past youth group on Friday nights other than join a growth group and lead at the youth group and and therefore the discipleship trades for maybe you, you go from being a being developed to being a doer in a very jarring way.

And that, you know, I called the Evel Knievel ramp because you you ramp up and up and up and up and then there’s nothing and then you just sort of fly into the Grand Canyon and crash.So the lack of intentionality, it’s why for so many young adults, the whether or not they plug into AFES ministries is such a good predictor of whether they’re going to go the distance in their faith.

Because so often the AFS ministries that the university ministries that is, are the only ones that are actually doing anything deliberately targeted at them.Yeah.Continuing that, that that ramp on the evil Knievel ramp, so to speak.Yeah, yeah.But now that unis are in frequently in person, and of course it’s never been the case that everyone in church went to uni to begin with, you know, that’s a bit of a classist assumption.

And paths don’t usually have, you know, APS groups and things.So if that’s our ministry model and the church isn’t thinking intentionally about this space, well, one, we’re only going to be discipling people who are kind of headed into, you know, more kind of university educated pathways.

And two, we can’t even guarantee that because they might not go on campus or they might go to a uni that has a, a group that isn’t, as you know, regular now.One of the things I’ve noticed as I’ve watched you over the last few years, you’re very, very good at helping people make that transition.What have been some of the things that you’ve done?

And in a moment, we’ll talk about what what advice you give to others, but what have you done that you found that has been helpful in making that transition or helping them make the transition?The first thing is to not assume that the I get, look, this is a, this is a bit of a A-Team size thing because you’ve got to think about what you’re working with, but to not assume that the youth ministry model in itself is going to be sufficient to care for the young adults that you’re requiring to lead in it.

I think frequently churches group young adults under the same portfolio as the youth minister.And if you have to do that often because you’re in a smaller team or whatever it is.So that’s sometimes completely necessary.But when when that happens, often the young adults that don’t make the cut to be youth leaders or end up serving in a different space of the church that isn’t as intentional will end up being chronically underdeveloped.

Yeah.And so that’s the first assumption, is to treat it as its own department.Don’t treat it as a subsidiary of the youth minister’s role.So do you reckon that should should be under the youth minister’s role or do you think that should be under somebody else’s role or it kind of depends on the team?I was, as you know, I was employed solely as a young adults minister, but that’s very unusual.

Yeah, currently I’m a congregational pastor who thinks about young adults very intentionally.Sure.But I do think, however, whoever handles it, it’s not about the team size.Whoever handles it, you need to think about it distinctly.OK, So, And I think that’s the thing.And of course, you only got so many hours in the day and.

But you can’t just assume that it’s the same job.If one person’s handling youth and young adults, they have to think of that as two departments because they are related but different, just like kids and youth.You can have one person handling kids and youth, but you can’t think about them the same way.Sure and and 2nd double handle so you know this is a plumbing analogy, but whenever you’ve got a bend in a pipe, the walls on the PV.

So you have to be thicker because pressure is bigger at the bends.And the question of where people hand over in our systems, I generally speaking, I don’t like the idea that we have rigid handovers in our ministry systems when people go from, you know, kids to youth, youth to young adults, young adults to the family service.

I don’t think we need to think about a change of God where someone leaves the room, someone else comes in and your pastor flips.I think those spaces of change are transitory periods that are very dangerous and people get, you know, predated by the world when change happens.So I think that we should double wall the pipes of those bits and say that the year 12 and maybe year 11 and 1st year outs are people that intentionally are developed by both our youth ministry programmes and our young adults programmes.

Likewise, when they make the jump into family ministries, we should not be afraid of having people sit in two people’s portfolio and double handling them because.We do see that sometimes we as people make the transition from kids to youth.You’ll actually see, you know, sometimes there’ll be someone, they’re in year six, they’ll be involved in the kids ministry, but they’ll be handed, you know, sort of starting to kind of get involved with that youth ministry, you know, towards the end of the year.

So they’re making that a slower change because they’re going through enough changes.And especially for young adults who are going through so much change to have some constancy there of having, well, there’s two hands, there’s two people who are looking after.I think that’s a great analogy, actually.That’s a really good one.Yeah.So we’ve got the the two handed analogy.

It’s actually also focusing it on focus it as a as a particular thing in and of itself.Anything else, practically?Well, just to give an example of what that looks like.Yeah.When I was doing youth ministry with Chris Trains with CJ, the way that looked for us then was that as the young adults guy, I handled the year 1112 midweek Bible study group and I was the young adults guy.

But I I genuinely think this, if I had to drop something in my wake, it would have been better for me to drop my young adult Bible study on a Tuesday night than to drop the year 1112 Bible study on a Wednesday night.Is that because of that double walling of that?Other people can lead the young adults, and I can’t possibly lead all of the young adults anyway, so I didn’t have the option of leading every young adult.

You know, we had like, what at like 60 or something.And so I wasn’t going to be able to lead all of their growth groups, but I could lead every year 1112 Bible study that came through, which would mean that every cohort that finished up in youth group and came up into the young adult space, I’d have a A2 year window of discipling and shaping so that they would come in familiar and like used to being in that space while also being in the youth space at Friday night.

And yeah, yeah.Anything else that you’ve done or that you think that’s been particularly effective in helping make the transition?I think young people are basically, you know, they usually assume that ministers won’t give them the time of day.So opening your home, that’s biblical.

You know, you, you something that I noticed when you go through Paul’s writings and and Peter as well, how frequently hospitality, how frequently hospitality is given as imperative.And that’s something that we don’t often we’re good at sort of teaching against the big naughty sins, but we’re maybe we need to think a bit more about how we embrace the positive imperatives to do good things, not just not do bad things.

And hospitality is frequently the model of of a, you know, a godly person that they that they open their home in life.So when Paul writes, you know that I didn’t only.Teach you the gospel.But I gave you my life, you know that.

I think that that’s something that he appeals to as a basis for the the worth of his leadership and why it should be considered by those he’s writing to.And I think if we’re going to tell young people what’s what and direct them and speak with an authority that nobody else in the whole world presumes to speak with as ministers, we need to also then be willing to give them the time of day and let them stay late in our living room and, you know, have them round and let them see our chaotic family life and not feel like we need to build big walls around that space.

And can I just say I reckon that’s actually a double edged thing as well.So I think it’s great for ministers to do that for ministers sake because young, like young adults have so much energy.And a lot of them will go, I want to go and change the world and some of them will go, I want to change the world for Jesus.And ministers sometimes are feeling tired and and to have that energy there and to feed off that energy can be a great blessing for them as.

Well, so yeah, it’s certainly.A great thing, yeah, yeah.What do you reckon about also giving young adults responsibility as they’re coming out?The appropriate amount of responsibility, but in in roles of different types of leadership?We’ve talked a little bit about youth leaders, but you know, not everyone’s going to go on to youth ministry.

What do you think about involving, yeah, young adults in different forms?Of industry as we go through few thoughts here on the one hand, I think that sometimes we have that assumption in I’m going to assume your listenership here at reach are going to have the assumption that we’re developing leaders where we’re we’re coaching our congregation to, you know, to do to do the good works.

We’re not just doing all the ministry ourselves.And that’s right, but that’s not a hard lurch at 18.You know, we don’t hit 18 and suddenly become full Grown Ups.You know, light switch way no and and so sometimes I’ve seen the assumption that like we need to propel young adults into leadership be very misapplied.

For instance, I don’t think that young adults should be leading their own growth groups.I’ve I’ve always been uncomfortable with sort of people 18 to 23 leading the growth groups of people 18 to 23.It seems to cut against the grain of the intergenerationality.We want to encourage.You know, we don’t have 16 year olds leading youth group and and why are young adults different?

You know, we should be as young adults, finish youth group, giving them leaders in the congregation as well as ourselves that are older, that are more mature parent age.So I’ve loved getting parents of high school age children to lead the the young adult Bible studies.That’s that’s a really positive thing you can do to engage that.

But on the other hand, you need to be letting the water just sort of increase in temperature gradually and giving them access to the important decision making spaces of the church and real leadership roles.So a few ways you can do that.Like I’ve been passionate about getting young people into the parish council in an Anglican church.

There’s, you know, whatever equivalent in your denominational structure.But getting young people, you know, at a representative rate involved in the leadership structures that you do have, even if their their role in that room is obviously a bit diminished by their age.They’re they’re listening and hearing.And if you want, you know, a young guy, young girl to be really great wardens at 50 or, you know, really good elders when they’re in their 30s and 40s, start them when they’re 20, you know, get them in the room listening and learning in that space.

And also think about how you explain your decisions as a leader.So when we make decisions at church, we, we often think about vision.You know, I want to cast a vision for the thing we’re going to do.I want to really sell people on the good thing we’re going to do.But what’s super critical with young Christians, it’s true with all Christians, but it’s really true with young ones is that we’re not just telling them what to think and why it’s good, but we’re teaching them how we got there and how to think and it we can’t just sell the vision.

We actually have to sell kind of the process of the vision forming and involve them in really granular ways and walk them through the process of not just where we got, but how we thought and let them be in those conversations consultatively.Because if we don’t do that, they’re not going to grow into 3540 year olds who are thinking Christianly about church.

And, you know, you grumble about like the older families and the older parents and things that are like, why can’t we just skip the sermon and play a YouTube video?Like why do we, you know, well, how do people become that?Yeah.You know, so consultative leadership, where you’re actually engaging people in the decision making process at every layer of your leadership, helps young people form the right view.

Yeah.Yeah, because you’re, yeah, you’re right.You people just don’t get to that.That level of leadership.We really want overnight.They need to see it.Yeah.They need to learn it.And so, yeah, sitting in the room and seeing the decisions made, why the decisions made so, so important.All right, Carl, we’ve said a number of different things about the transitions from youth, young.

Let’s sum it up.What are what are the key ideas that people really need to understand Here?You’ve got, you’ve got.Yeah, three or four there.No, I do, I do, I think open your home and and you know, share your life as well as your, your doctrine.I think lead consultatively and invite people into your thinking and process.I think think about young adults as a distinct portfolio, not just as a fruit of another ministry or a a pool to draw from, but as a distinct portfolio in itself.

And I think elevate the bar of your teaching.All right.What do you mean by that?Yeah, so for that one, oh, I, I think that a lot of people have the experience of going to uni ministry and then having their mind blown.They’re like, Oh my gosh, I never knew that there was, you know, so much depth in my Christian faith.

One of the things I did when I started at my last parish was I met with everyone who was that’s when I was working with you.I met with everyone who was leaving because as I came on in the young adults role, I was kind of like a a bandage hire where young adults had been leaving and and you.Were there to stop the haemorrhage.Yeah, yeah, I was, yeah.

I was there to triage.And what I did is I didn’t try to persuade everyone who was leaving to stay.I just wanted to understand what it was that drove them and what they were thinking through as they left.And probably the number one thing, there are a few things, but probably the number one thing that recurred was I just feel like I’ve heard it all, or I’ve got everything out of here I’m going to get, or I’ve grown as much as a Christian as I’m going to grow here.

So whether they were leading church altogether because they thought they’d heard it all or they were leaving this church because they thought they were going to get everything they were going to get out of a church here, here, I need to go somewhere else.Same thing.And that’s not true.I mean, like, I’m still learning things and I’ve been to Bible college, you know, I’ve done there’s so much depth to the Christian faith.

And what a shame if we give young people the illusion that it’s simple, shallow and narrow.And that experience of going to uni and getting Asian uni ministry and realising, Oh my gosh, there’s so much intelligent thought.There’s so much depth doesn’t have to be unique to uni ministries.So I’ve always thought about teaching young adults and your your twelves as well, not with the goal that every single thing should be at their level, but that every single thing should leave them walking away going.

There’s things I don’t know, and every single thing should inspire them not just to understand, but to want to learn more.How do we give people the impression that they haven’t actually heard it all yet?Because they certainly haven’t.I love that that we’re leaving them with something that they have to they, they want to learn more because often because they don’t have the same responsibilities as a family person, they have more time.

And so they can go and research it.They can go and go, OK, I need to find that talk.I need to do that research and they will do it and they will because they love it and they wanted.I’m dealing with sleepy parents.Like I give them recommendations for a book.They’re like, they’re not gonna read it.Or they might get to a they might get to a podcast, sure.But young people, I can give them like recordings of lectures from seminaries.

I can give them books and they do read them.Sure.That’s that’s unique.Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.OK, so that’s a bit of a summary, but let’s cut to it.This is the one thing Kyle give us what’s the what’s the one thing that’s most important about the transition from youth to young adults?To answer that question of who am I by finding yourself in Christ.

And I think if if, if our young people land at that process of deliberation of who they are going, oh, I’m a Christian, they’ll be look, they’re going to be safer.They’re on this is the danger zone, really, the really, really, really dangerous time of life.

And the best thing we can do for them is to give them more input, more care, more opportunity, more community than any other space of their life is doing.Carl, this has been really, really helpful.It’s obviously been a bit of a hole for us at Reach Australia because I went to look in the toolbox, there wasn’t a lot we had on young adults.

But firstly, I want to say thank you.Thanks for coming in, really appreciate your input.Thank you.In the toolbox, we will have some things in the toolbox.We’ve got a couple of things there for youth ministry, but I also wanted to just highlight for you our ebook on leadership pipeline because there is a whole section there on young adults and developing leaders from a young age and some of those things that Carl has has mentioned in the podcast.

But if you’ve got any questions or you would any topics you’d like us to cover or hey, you just want to give us some feedback, let us know how we’re going.Email [email protected] dot AU.I’m Pete Hughes.Chat soon.