The Mission of the Church
By Andrew Heard
One in five people in Australia are dealing with a mental health issue at any given moment, and gospel workers aren’t immune. Keith and Sarah Condie from the Mental Health Institute unpack how to maintain mental wellbeing.
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TRANSCRIPTION:
The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
G’day MP Hughes and welcome to The One Thing, a podcast designed to give you one solid, practical tip for gospel centred ministry.Every week.One thing that’s brought to you by Reach Australia.We want to see thousands of healthy evangelistic and multiplying churches because healthy churches means we don’t have to have healthy gospel workers.
But one in five Australian adults experience some sort of mental health challenge and that number is one in seven in children and in adolescents.And so today we have a couple of special guests with us.Doctor Keith Conde and his lovely wife Sarah are here to help us to think about our mental well being.
They are the founders and Co directors of the Mental Health and Pastoral Care Institute.It’s a ministry of Anglican Deaconess Ministries here in Sydney, combining the wisdom of God and current psychological and medical research.The institute runs courses have resources to help churches and Christians to better understand mental health and to love others as well.
Make sure all of that you check out the show notes.You’ll see the links there.Keith and Sarah, it’s great to have you.Oh.Thanks so much for having us Pete, lovely to be here.Yeah.Thanks, Pete.Yes, it is good to be here.Now, you guys, you guys actually like walking, don’t you?
We do, yeah.Yeah, what’s what’s your favourite walk at the moment?Well, we’ve just moved to the Blue Mountains, to Katoomba.So we are discovering new beautiful walks.And I have to say the walk from, it’s called Prince Henry Walk and it’s a, you know, it’s a touristy walk, but it is flattish and has so many amazing views and it’s spectacular.
So I’m enjoying doing that.It’s yeah, yeah.And it’s just down the road.Excellent.Now I just want to say before we get into this episode, as we discuss mental health challenges, please take care.You may want to take a moment to think, is this the right time for you to listen to today’s episode?
You may want to come back to it at a later time.You may may not be the one you want to watch listen to while you’re driving, depending on where you’re at, but what we’re going to do today is press play on another episode of The One Thing.How can I look after my own mental health well being?
Today’s podcast is brought to you by the Reach Australia Team Development Programme.Running over two years, this intensive programme helps ministry leaders and ministry teams develop personally and professionally.If you’re interested in the team development programme from Reach Australia, even if it’s early days for you, get in touch, head to the Reach Australia website and look under Healthy Churches.
And now back to the podcast.OK, now let me ask you, I I’ve talked a little bit about the statistics of mental health and well being and mental health challenges.What?What are what are the statistics like these days?
Well, you were pretty good at what you said.So one in five of us, which is 20% of us, will experience a diagnosable mental health disorder in any 12 month period.3:20
And nearly one in two of us will experience some sort of mental health issue or challenge in our lifetime.So mental health challenges will touch us all in some way, whether it’s our family, ourselves personally, friends, work colleagues.
Yes.And I think a lot of people experience psychological distress or a languishing particularly.I know the pandemic was a few years ago, but I think it’s still left its mark on a lot of us.And I think we are, a lot of us are still recovering.
So that has a significant impact upon people in our church, cause 20% of our people will be impacted in some way.Yeah, and I was about to say, just because you’re in church or even in ministry doesn’t mean that you’re not gonna face that, that that’s the, you’re still part of the statistics that are.
Yeah, for sure.So I think for a lot of people, they think that he would, they hear the words mental health and they think problem.
So that has a significant impact upon people in our church, cause 20% of our people will be impacted in some way.Yeah, and I was about to say, just because you’re in church or even in ministry doesn’t mean that you’re not gonna face that, that that’s the, you’re still part of the statistics that are.4:18
There, absolutely.Those statistics are across the board, yeah.Can you tell us about some of the misconceptions around mental health challenges?Yeah, for sure.So I think for a lot of people, they think that he would, they hear the words mental health and they think problem.
We’ve all got physical health.It can be good, can be not so good.And so it’s just really important, I think, for us to grasp that.And you know, I know this is a podcast, so I can’t draw your pictures, but I want you to imagine a picture, imagine a compass, right?
But actually we’ve all got mental health, right?We’ve all got physical health.It can be good, can be not so good.And so it’s just really important, I think, for us to grasp that.And you know, I know this is a podcast, so I can’t draw your pictures, but I want you to imagine a picture, imagine a compass, right?
You’ve got a.It’s in North SE West.North SE, right, OK, just to make sure.We’ve got the right compass.Yep.Good.North, South axis, that vertical dimension and then east, West, that’s horizontal, right?I want you to think about two sort of continuums.
You’ve got a.It’s in North SE West.North SE, right, OK, just to make sure.We’ve got the right compass.Yep.Good.North, South axis, that vertical dimension and then east, West, that’s horizontal, right?I want you to think about two sort of continuums.
One of them, let’s think, let’s think about mental ill health.OK, So where there’s a problem, that’s the east, West axis.So we’re down one end, severe mental illness, the other end, no problem at all, no diagnosable condition.OK, so that that’s telling us something.
But there’s another dimension, the north South, and this is what is called the well being dimension.So up the top, this is when people are flourishing in life.Their mental well being is very good.But down the bottom end, that’s where Sarah mentioned languishing.
There’s lots of people who are languishing.COVID lockdowns push lots of people into that languishing state where they don’t have a diagnosable condition, but they’re not sort of leaping out of bed in the morning thinking, oh, I’m really ready to face this day.So what we need to understand is whether you’ve got a diagnosable condition or not, all of us can do things that actually assist our well being and move us up that vertical scale from South towards the north.
Or we can be doing stuff in our lives that’s actually pushing us down into that languishing state, which is actually a risk factor then for a diagnosable mental health condition.So that’s one of the things I think is really important for us to understand.And when we then, when we think about mental health challenges from a sort of Christian perspective and think about it theologically, there’s all sorts of stuff out there that’s not very helpful.
And a really key problem is lots of people think, OK, if there’s something going on for someone emotionally, it must be a spiritual problem.And often it’s not a spiritual problem.There are other factors at play.
So people who might think, you know, some Christian circles, OK, you’ve got a mental health problem must be due to sin or perhaps there’s a demon involved here that needs to be cast out.And that’s there’s still people around who who think that we need to we need to be aware of that.
If you had more faith, you’d be OK.You know, the Bible says don’t be anxious.If we trusted God more wouldn’t be a problem.And I think all of that rather, I think it actually misunderstands what’s really going on.So what we need to understand is how theological anthropology, that is who we are as human beings.
We are incredibly complex, much, much more complex than we can even imagine.So all sorts of factors are at play.There’s our our Physiology, OK, we are physical beings, so that impacts our mental health.
Stuff can go wrong.
We are social beings, so the quality of our relationships will impact us, our the emotional dimension to who we are, the way that we think and of course our spiritual state as well.All of this bears upon our mental health.
We are social beings, so the quality of our relationships will impact us, our the emotional dimension to who we are, the way that we think and of course our spiritual state as well.All of this bears upon our mental health.
So just recognising that in this fallen world, all of these aspects of who we are, our bodies, our minds, our feelings, our social networks are all impacted by the fall.Stuff can go wrong.
And it does.And it does for all of us.It does for Christian people, it does for people in ministry.And so, you know, I just think we need to be aware of that.I think also in Christian circles, you know, we think, OK, God’s God, God’s doing good work in our lives and he can change us.
And so if I’m growing as a Christian, then of course my mental health will inevitably get better.Perhaps not.And in fact, one of the lovely truths I think of the Christian faith is you can have a severe mental illness, but it can be well with your soul.
And I love that truth.It is, and it’s a great reminder, isn’t it, that we are saved by our faith in Jesus and not saved by the state of our mental health?Yeah, and I, I’ve got to keep going.I, I, I’m glad you, you pressed into this complexity question.
I, I think in my own journey at the moment, I’ve realised how, how complex we are as people and how my body is actually affected by my emotions has been something I’ve been kind of wrestling with.But let’s, let’s move.I mean, the gospel does impact this.I mean, how does the gospel impact mental health and both in terms of cause and treatment?
Just think about the gospel narrative, right the the big four steps, creation, fall, redemption, new creation.Let’s get a creation.How did God make us?We’ve we’ve just talked about our bodies.He made us with bodies, right?Embodied beings.We are not just spirits.
And that’s why to fix our mental health will not be simply a spiritual matter.Then they give the fall.And I said again a moment ago, every aspect of our functioning has been impacted by the fall.So, you know, our brain chemistry, our neural pathways, stuff goes wrong with that.
We fall into patterns of thinking that are not terribly helpful, patterns of feeling that are not terribly helpful, all of that.So that’s impacted.But then when we think of the, the gospel of redemption, you know, the God’s work in rescuing us, you know that first, which talks about the, the inner being in two Corinthians four, I think it is the, the inner being is being renewed day by day, but the outer body is wasting away.
And I think that says a lot, doesn’t it?And so while God is doing this wonderful work of sanctification and change within us, certain parts of how we work won’t necessarily get better.They might even get worse.And so for some people, they’re going to be living with a mental health condition, a significant one, perhaps throughout their life.
There might be there might be cycles and then there might be dips and, you know, troughs but but also better periods.But stuff comes back.And that may be the way we live until that final phase of when God puts everything completely right and mental health challenges will be no more.
Praise God for that.Amen.I mean, I, I’ve talked to this is not the time for me to talk about this, but I, I have in the past talked about my own mental health issues.And I think one of the things that I’ve been challenged by and want to challenge others by is the fact that we are, we are sinners and mental health challenges doesn’t give us a free pass to keep sinning.
No, because sometimes those those areas of sin can be areas of comfort that we crave, but actually it’s a poison that will lead to further death and can make things worse.Yeah, absolutely.That’s some of those choices that don’t actually help us in our mental health.
Yes.So what do we need to know?I mean, I think one of the things that I found really helpful with your compass analogy is that there’s there’s mental health challenges and we often think about mental illness, but there’s actually mental health, yes.So what what do we need to understand about mental well being?
What are the some of the things we can do there, Sarah?So that’s a really good question.And I think we all, we’re all different.God has made us differently and we’re unique.So having some sense of self awareness about ourselves is really important here, understanding our vulnerabilities and how they impact us.
So we might be lean towards pride or people pleasing, we might have a strong sense of responsibility and that impacts our mental well being because we feel like we keep stuffing up.And then understanding our capacity.
Sometimes we model ourselves on those with a huge capacity and if we don’t have that capacity, that can crush us.It’s sort of like, you know, there’s these heroes of the faith who we look to and think, yeah, these are the great ones, and we want to be like them and emulate them.But most of us, most of us are not great ones.
And some of us need more downtime or we take longer to do things and comparing ourselves to others isn’t necessarily a helpful thing to do.I think another thing is understand the connection and, and you’ve phrased this already, Pete, the connections with our physical health and our relationships, they’re all, they all connect.
It’s really important to listen to our bodies better.And what is our body actually telling us when we have too much stress and recognising that.So just speaking personally, I know when I’m stressed because I have trouble sleeping, right?
Or I might go to sleep and I’ll wake up in the middle of the night and then I can’t get back to sleep or I have this bit in the back of my head and it gets really itchy, right.And that’s the biggest warning that oh, OK, Sarah, you need to do something.It’s almost like it’s a trigger or a warning sign.
Sarah, pay attention.And that really knowing that helps our mental well being because we can actually do something about it.So what are some of the steps that we can take to help us with our mental well being?
It’s important that we understand it’s there, but what can we do?OK, I’m talking to people who are in ministry.So what are the tools of our trade?Obviously God’s Word, the Bible, but essentially our minds and our bodies.
And to serve God for the long haul, we need to take care of the tools of our trade.So that means we need to take care of our bodies and we need to take care of our minds.So it’s about creating healthy habits and looking after yourself, all those things that actually help with us functioning.
So thinking about us physically, emotionally, socially, intellectually, spiritually, like thinking about all those different parts of ourselves.So if we think about ourselves physically, we’ve got the Trinity of good health, nutrition, exercise, sleep.
I was talking with a mental health professional last night and she said I spend a lot of time with my clients talking, asking them about their sleep, diet, exercise.So if we kind of paid a bit of attention to that, are we getting enough sleep?
Do we get out and get some exercise?Those things actually help.And thinking about what we eat.No, that’s the sort of thing that your mother hassled you about, but it’s actually really important.But I think I think that’s actually important thing because it uncovers a sort of, there’s a theological underpinning to that.
And and I think I fell into it of just a sort of a platonism of going, the spiritual is good and the physical I don’t need to worry about so much because, you know, I’m kind of going, well, it’ll all pass away.So I don’t really need to look after this body because I’ll get another one in the resurrection.But that’s actually not, that’s not biblical, that’s not actually being healthy, is it?
No, it’s not.And it’s foolish, actually.I have repented by the way, just just make that clear.Good on you.And I’m not really saying that to, you know, I think, you know, it’s actually being mindful that God has given us bodies and if we are good stewards, we look after the body he’s given us.
Then there’s our mind.If we think about our minds, I think a lot of us have self talk and chatter that goes on in our minds and some of that can take us down very negative rabbit holes.So it’s actually noticing that that’s happening and thinking, well, what could I do about that?
The importance of letting God’s truth shape our thought life.Then thinking about, well, what feeds you emotionally enrich, what makes you feel good?Like, do you get out into nature?You ask us about walks.That’s something that is really helpful for us.
I love having a horizon to look at.That helps me enormously.Doing things, hobbies, spending time with friends.For all of us, they’ll be different.So it’s waking up.What are the things that help me emotionally and to build that sort of time into your routine of life?
It’s taking the time to notice the good things and being in the moment and being thankful.I think we can.I do think our phones or devices can distract us from noticing what’s around us.
We can be so caught up with reading messages or catching up with emails that.You don’t see the horizon in the Blue Mountains.Yeah, or you don’t notice the park across the road and it’s yeah, it actually, it’s worthwhile trying to build in little moments of that and it actually helps your mental well being.
My wife and I’ve just started a new habit of asking each other what’s 1 good thing that happened today and what’s 1 challenging thing.But it’s interesting when we are what’s 1 good thing that happened today and we have to go hang on.Let me think about the day.And it’s quite sad that I have to stop and reflect on that, but it’s an important thing to.
Do and you.What you might find is if you do that for a few weeks, you’ll actually be much quicker at it because you’ll be noticing those good things more quickly.I’m looking forward to that.That’ll be good.OK, Yeah.So, and I think in ministry there’s always more needs.
I, I don’t think anyone in who’s in the ministry life will get to the end of the week and say, I’ve done everything I wanted to do.And I think being able to create some sort of margin in our life so that we can have the capacity to cope with the unexpected because the unexpected always happens.
And I’ve, I’ve started actually putting in my diary or list of things expect the unexpected so that it’s there when it happens.So I can then notice it and then notice the things that I’ve spent time that’s taken up to do with that.
Setting limits and also ensuring that our tank, our emotional tank’s not empty, and if we feel like it’s empty, to fill it.And yeah, those, all those things will help our mental well being.
And a lot of them are little things, but it’s actually finding lots of those little things and building them into your life.But that’s the thing.Like they, they are little things, but.They make you a healthier person.And if that doesn’t, I mean, if if you’re listening to this and that hasn’t sold you, being a healthier person makes you a more effective gospel worker, right?
So if you’re happy, that doesn’t stop that with that short.Sense.Yeah.And it makes, I think then you are an actually more pleasant person to be around.Yeah.And.Yeah, not just a better gospel worker, a more loving person.Yeah.You know, the way that our Lord Jesus has called us to be.
Yeah, it’ll actually help that.Yep, Yep.And but if you have got caught in that kind of cycle of I’ve got to be a leader, OK, this will make you a better leader, but trust me, when you get into it, you’ll actually be a better human being and that’s even better than being a better leader.It’s.Kind of almost, if you do some of these things, it does some of the things that you would really like to do and it just almost organically.
And I think I want to mention that because I think a lot of gospel workers go, I feel guilty about taking time to do that.I’m going no, actually this is part of what you are meant to do as a gospel.This is how you sustain yourself as a gospel.If you want to be in it for the long haul, yeah, OK.If you just want to do it for a little short period of time, sure.
Just completely run yourself into the ground.Yep.And lots of people do that.But if you want to be there for the long haul here we need to ask, Sarah said.Look after those tools that God has given you, your mind and your body.Very, very important.
Yeah, and I think I, again, I was struck by that.When, you know, Paul talks about I poured myself out like a drink offering.Yes, I go, yeah, yeah, that’s what I do.And I thought, hang on, you’ve actually got to have stuff in the cup to pour out.Yes, to be able.To be that drink offering and sometimes we forget that part of it.Yeah, Now I realise there, you know, there’s ups and downs, but when, when you start to go, actually I think, I think things are not going so well.
Where do, what’s that first step?Where do we go?Yeah, no.And that again, it’s really important to recognise this.So, so you know, we’ve talked about well being moving up from South to north on that vertical axis.Let’s just think, go back to the horizontal one.How do we know when there’s actually a significant mental health problem that we need to address?
And the psychologists, they talk about, you know what I think the three key things they think about are our mood, right?How we’re feeling, our thought life, what we’re thinking about, and then our behaviour, what we’re doing.And when there’s significant changes in those areas, we need to be alert to that in ourselves, in others.
And what we’re going to be really careful of in today’s climate and environment is we’re talking here about significant problems, not little stuff, right?All of us living in a living in the world that we live in, we all experience distress and that’s normal and that’s appropriate.
We’re talking about significant distress.Which stuff really?How do you know it’s really significant?Well, it starts to get in the way of you’re doing life and ministry.So you can’t your relationships, it’s impacting your relationships.It’s impacting your ability to to write the sermon or the talk or get the Bible study or do all of that stuff.
Prepare.You just can’t focus.And we’re not talking about a couple of bad days.We’re talking about something that persists over time.So three things significant distress getting in the way of doing life for a significant for a matter of weeks.
And when that’s taking place, best first step, go and see AGP and do a little assessment and see if it’s worth they’ll, they’ll, they’ll tell you whether you need to go off and get some further help.Now we actually have another episode I’ll put in the toolbox just about talking through what’s the difference between a a psychologist, psychiatrist, clinical psychiatrist, GP.
But you’re right, GP is kind of the, the 1st place to go.Stress is a big thing in, in ministry and you want to have periods of stress where, you know, I want to make sure I get this right.But chronic stress?How does what, what, what?How could chronic stress play out in ministry?
Yeah, can I say stress is actually a really good thing?We all need stress.Stress enables us to do stuff in life.And the trouble is, when we talk about being really stressed, we are talking about chronic stress.So stress is great when you’ve got the opportunity to recover and God has wired us this way.
So just think about your heartbeat, right?Your heart beats.Stress, relax, stress, relax.That’s a heartbeat.Same with our breathing and the two parts to our sympathetic nervous system, which one of them is our stress response, the other is our relaxation response.
Both of them are involved when we breathe in and when we breathe out one.So, so these are the rhythms that God has made made us with.When you’re living though with chronic stress, I want you to imagine a swimming pool, OK, and just imagine the water level in the swimming pool and the the water level is the level of stress you are under.
If say that background stress level is down at your knees and then something big hits you, what happens it you know, might the water might come up to your waist, but you’re fine.If you’re living in chronic stress, your stress level might be up to your chin or even the bottom of your nose.
And if it’s at the bottom of your nose and then you’re hit by something else, guess what happens?You feel like you’re drowning.And unfortunately, many people in ministry live with that level of chronic stress.They do not have the recovery time in place to enable that water level to drop down so that they can cope with the demands that come our way.
So what we talk about this is not my idea.I read this somewhere someone spoke about having slices.Sorry, snippets, slivers, slivers, slices and slabs of recovery time.So a sliver, you know, you Pete, you’re doing your work during the day.
Do you take a moment to look out the window and see the park?90 seconds.Yep, to give your brain a break, a slice of time.You know, you’ve done something quite stressful.Do you allow yourself, you know, an hour or two just to wind down after that event?
You might have been a very difficult pastoral conversation, spending, giving a sermon, and I know you’ve got to talk to people after church, but after that, do you have some downtime or you just keep powering all day long and then those slabs of time, day offs, proper holidays to recover.
That’s what we need.Yeah, and that that’s what you were talking about there with chronic stress and the wave coming.That’s really what Sarah was talking about.Expect the unexpected plan.There’s going to be unexpected things there.The wave is coming.You can’t just have the water up to your your nose all the time.That’s right.Well, what about pastors in particular and gospel workers?
Are there there particular things that that they need to pay attention to with their mental well being?Yeah, I think so because there there are some particularities about being in ministry that you know, you could people could, you could work this out for yourself.But just think about a couple of really basic things is there’s not clear boundaries around work time, non work time for people in ministry the way there are in many other occupations.
So then of course, doing the Lord’s work, how do you say no to the Lord’s work?That’s not an easy thing to do.And yet if we never say no, chronic stress will probably be our experience.
And of course there’s a whole range of other things.So what Sarah said earlier about knowing your own capacity, I think that’s very, very important, looking after your mind and your body so that you can be there for the long haul.And I think here, this is where our theology is really important.
And we say we believe certain things, but sometimes we’re, you know, we’re sort of practical atheists.We don’t.And, and I’m speaking about myself here, OK?I’m not just throwing stuff at other people, but you know, we believe in the sovereignty of God.
Can God do stuff without my involvement?Now, I know we are his agents to do his work.So please don’t hear me wrong here.But sometimes we have to entrust things to him because we, we can’t do it.
We can’t do everything.And you know, we believe we’re saved by grace.Is that really grounding our approach to our ministry such that we can we actually leave things in the Lord’s hands and pray about it, recognising this is not actually my responsibility to take this on?
Or am I driven by my own inner needs to be doing a whole lot of stuff?So I think they’re the sorts of things that we need to be very aware of in ministry because if we don’t get some of this stuff right, it’s going to drag us from that flourishing state down from north to South, push us into a more languishing condition, and that will then impact everything that we’re doing.
Yeah, I, I agree completely.I mean, I think, and I think it’s sometimes helpful for us to come back and go, can people, what would people assess about theology, not from what we say, but the way that we live?Like would people actually look at us and go, if you’re a Calvinist, go would people work out you’re a Calvinist by the way you live and your prayer life?
That’s a great point.And yeah, I, I, I’m a bit hesitant about asking that question because if someone asks me about that, I, we’re going to move on.And this is called the one thing I’m going to ask you both.What?What’s the one thing you think we need to know about caring for our mental well being?Sarah, the one thing I’d say is to listen to your body.
And if you’re, if that makes no sense to you at all, you think I have no idea what you’re talking about.Well, this is an opportunity for you to to learn about what does your body say to you, How does it tell you that it’s worn out or needs a bit of TLC, And then pay attention.
Excellent.Thank you, Keith.My one thing is to repeat what I said earlier, we are much, much more complex than we think we are.And therefore pay attention to all those dimensions of who we are looking after, our bodies, physically healthy, supportive relationships, those things that feed you emotionally that Sarah talked about, and of course nurturing our connection with God.
And if we pay attention to those things, that’s going to do us a lot of our well being a lot of good.Keith and Sarah, I want to say thank you, but I actually found this quite challenging.It’s been really helpful for me.I don’t know if you’ve been listening, you found it helpful, but I found it helpful.So thank you so much for joining us today.Thank you.
Thanks.For having us, thank you.We’ve got things in the toolbox I’ve got.If you this has raised particular issues for you then please make sure you go see your GP or if it’s particularly pressing.Lifeline is 131114.These guys come from the Mental Health Institute.
We’ve got some links there, particularly with the press on course to help Christians maintain a mental well being.So please make sure you click onto that.We’ve got a previous episode, we’ve got a couple of previous episodes, particularly with Laura Lauren Arrington talking about mental health professionals and we’ll also put a link in for Sarah raised some questions about rest.
We’ve got a previous episode on seven types of rest that a lot of people found very helpful.So heaps and heaps in the toolbox.If you’ve got a topic you want us to cover or you want to give us some feedback, please make sure email [email protected] dot AU.I’m Pete Hughes, chat soon.
