[0:00]
You're speaking more from my experience about how I've worked to try and help people make change. And it's one thing to have this picture in your mind about what you want to do to ride off into the sunset on your horse. It's another thing entirely to turn around and see people coming with you. How do you get people to come with you? It involves changing them in some sense, changing their mindset. I think naturally,

[0:30]
We don't go after pain, which often comes with change, but by nature we want things to just be comfortable and to work and to be convenient for us, and yet to achieve substantial things, I would say, always involve significant sacrifice and cost. So how do you get people to pay significant sacrifice and make great cost?

[1:00]
how do we get people to change? That's the big thing we need to keep looking into it. One of the things I continue to focus on is is understanding that what I'm calling people to do is to get excited about something bigger than themselves. Because as I mentioned before, no one needs to tell you to be concerned about self-protection or your own dreams for your own little vision of your own future.

[1:30]
But really what we're calling people to do is get excited about something far greater than their own comfort and their own convenience and their own little life, something bigger, so that they're prepared to sacrifice little things for something greater. And that greater something gives the mission of God and His glory on Earth. And so that's a big part of what we need to focus on doing. How do that? There's three things I'm always thinking about doing it, to call people something greater than themselves,

[2:00]
in three different kind of contexts. There's the one-on-one context. There's the small group meeting amongst the leaders' context, and then there's the preaching context. They're the three contexts I was thinking about. The one-on-one context, I very rarely ever have a coffee with someone without an agenda with them to help them see something that I want them to see. So people will always know that there's something I want to bring up with them. And it'll be something like you do understand where we're trying to head with all these.

[2:34]
Can you imagine if? And I paint pictures about what the Central Coast would look like if more people were following Jesus or what this group of people would look like if they came into Christ. And recently, it's been in regards to the peninsula. Can you imagine the peninsula where people were following Jesus? Can you imagine what would happen to the youth crime rates? Can you imagine what would happen to this and that? Can you imagine what could happen for dysfunctional families? I'll paint pictures. Because I think until people see something that's bigger than their own world

[3:08]
and something that's grand and something that they're excited by, that's what God is doing, they won't ever pay a personal cost until they get excited about something bigger. And I'll have a couple of coffees a week with people where I'm trying to talk them into, sacrificing their lives, to get on board with giving more of themselves to Michelle. In that one-on-one context, I work really hard, and sometimes I push too hard, and people would just say, that's nuts, Tim, why, you know, and other times I think I've been too soft,

[3:39]
and I haven't called people to a big enough sacrifice. And I think that's probably our tendency, more than anything. We continue to see ourselves as the ones who are paid to do the work, and if we can get someone to come along and do a bit of it with us, we're happy because it's as though they're helping us do our job, whereas the features forward would say the exact opposite. It saves our job to work to work. them for works of service. This is their work. This is their job. It's their job to build the church. It's their job to use what God's made them to be to see people come to Christ

[4:11]
and see the church built up. And it's your job to train them to do that. So as I go in with those kind of goggles on when I'm sitting with a person, I'm thinking, I'm not trying to get them to help me, I want to call them to do what God's creative that gives me a little bit more confidence when I sit with a person. And a little bit more grunt in what I'm saying and a little bit more urgency in calling people to a big vision. So there's the one-on-one setting. In leadership meetings, settings, they're very key.

[4:42]
I'm so… I mean, I'm really interested in what makes for good meetings that work. Everyone hates meetings. If you read any of Lansseoni's stuff, death by meetings, a good book. The Five Disfunctions of Team is a good book. Talking about how conflict can be a good thing in meetings, often a good thing in meetings. Learning how to sit with a group of your leaders, deal with conflict, help them see where we're heading is really tricky.

[5:14]
But when it works, you've got a group of leaders who are going on something. It's really exciting. I love that stuff. So figuring out how to get your leaders back on track with vision. Bill Hewigs will always say that vision leaks. So even if you've come up with your vision, You feel like you've communicated your vision. You've got everyone on board with the vision. In three months' time, most of them will have forgot what it was. We'll be riding too again. They're on the horse going, riding really hard. You're thinking, where are we going? And so they'll need to continually be reminded where they're going.

[5:46]
You won't because you live it. And you're trying to get them to live it with you. But then your leaders will need continual reminding as to where you're heading so that they're happy to continually pay the cost of what's going to take. get there. The other bigger, the more broader context is preaching where I'm continuing to ask myself the question, what is the big, life-changing, worldview-shaping thing that can be preached from this passage?

[6:17]
Why would it matter if the people never heard this message? And we work really hard at preaching large concepts of worldview-shaped. concepts from preaching rather than just small here's your lunchbox of application things this is going to help you get through Monday if we can call people to the grand vision of you exist for God not the other way around that is a it's a life shaking kind of thing

[6:49]
because naturally we think where we are the center of the universe and churches that preach God exists to help you achieve your dreams and be all that you can be and actualize your full potential. Jesus is your life coach. That's the latest popular message. It's moved away from prosperity, I reckon, and it's into that at the moment. So churches that preach that are growing massively because people want to walk through the door and hear that it's all about them. And God exists for them to help them be all that I can burn.

[7:23]
So we work really hard to push the other way and keep saying, no, no, no, God does not exist for you. you're just for him and you want to give yourself to his callers and what that means is this is to follow Jesus, pick up the cross and give yourself to bring people to know him and his glory and so in preaching I work really hard to keep calling people to a grand vision for their life something far greater than their own little weak and it does transform the week but it's just

[7:54]
bigger than all that and I think that's exciting to have something big to live for them. People will pay the costs in their personal life if they're caught up in something large. And I think preaching is one of the best opportunities we have to give that to people. So there's the first thing I'd say to help people change. We need to envision them. We need to, and it's not that we need to go hunting for a special vision, just give them God's vision in scripture what he's on about. In bringing glory to his own name

[8:24]
and building his church. So God has a heart. of that. Go hard and envision people. The second thing I'd say, so I've got envision them, show them, include them, organize them, hold them. So let me just kind of punch through those. There's envision them. Show them. People need to see that you are committed to that. People need to see evidence in your own life that you've paid great sacrifice and cost to head in that direction always they won't go with you. Show them how to get there.

[8:57]
I worked in ministry with guys for years who were awesome at painting a really exciting picture of the future, but they never broke it down so I could see how we could get there. So after a while I grew cynical because I'd get caught up in their big vision, and then I'd go, but you don't know how we can get there. And they never really did show us how I'm going to get there. So not only do we know where we're heading, we need to be able to show people, and here's how I believe we can get there. It's not just some pipe dream. I believe.

[9:27]
we can get there and let me throw it out and see what you think and reverse engineer and bring it right back to the present so they know the steps we're going to be taking them now so so I've attempted to do this with Peninsula and with Saturday Eve so with Peninsula the big grand vision for the Peninsula is that we would see the place impacted for Christ we would see at least 10% of the people living for Christ so that everyone on the Peninsula would know a committed Christian and would genuinely have the opportunity to consider the claims of Christ.

[10:03]
And so what would that take? What would look like for the 10% of the peninsula to know Christ? Well, that's 4,000 people. At the moment there's probably about 800 maybe that go to church. So that means there needs to be another 3,000 people at least living for Christ. How do we make that happen? And just kind of painting the big picture of the future and then just stepping it back. So that's going to mean quite a large church with a number of different congregate. reaching into different sections of the community. How do we do that? Well, all would be the first step. We want to establish a firm base from which we could then launch different kinds of congregations.

[10:38]
How do we establish a firm base? Well, here's how we can do it. And just keep stepping it right back into the present. And so it's called reverse engineering. And I always appreciate it when someone reverse engineers from me so that they break it right down to the noun and they say, okay. So in the next. few months, here's what we need to be done. And for the whole peninsula thing it was, rounding out people who were already planning to start praying and to have monthly praying. And then it was, how can we get the word out a little bit broader over the next few months?

[11:11]
And that it was, then it would be how can we secure a venue, how can we be connecting with the community doing mission, how can we be doing all the things? And I think as we paint the big picture, step it backwards, and then include them in the process of, so how do you think we can get the word out? And they're like, oh, well, we can do this, we can do that, okay. So you do that, you do that, you do that, let's do that, let's get the word out. And so including them, so the first thing I said was envision them, and then I said, show them how we can get there by stepping it back.

[11:42]
And then I would say include them in certain parts of that strategy towards getting there. Help, let them brainstorm ways to pull off those things. Let them disagree. with the strategy towards getting them. Let them voice their concerns and consider them because sometimes you'll be wrong and they've made some really good points. But include them in the process so that they get right involved in it. And then I would say organise them.

[12:15]
One of the most helpful things I think is if you've stepped it back and we're trying to show people how to get involved is to actually set up different ministry teams. I know that sounds relatively simple, but set up, ministry teams that have got a job description in them and there is clearly clarified including them in the process of doing that and have people organized into different ministry departments and teams. And that's really breaking down, big vision, but it's helping people figure out the practical things that they can do to contribute to that big picture and the practical things they can do now

[12:47]
which are going to be able to pay the cost for that. And then the final thing I'd say is hold them and what I mean by hold them is hold them is, and accountable to what they said they would do. And here's, again, another area where I don't think we're strong enough with volunteers. We don't hold our volunteers accountable to the responsibilities that they put their hand up for in ministry. Either because we have clarified the responsibilities to start with, we haven't been clear about the job description. But if we do that well, then we work about holding accountable to job description.

[13:20]
So the way we manage our volunteers is by having them report. like you would a staff member report. Now, obviously, there needs to be nuanced slightly. But if people have said that they would get these certain things done in their ministry area of the next few months, then there needs to be a report of how they've gone with that on an accountability as to why they haven't hit those targets or done things that way. Now, I think we're very cautious and we pull back from calling people to account on responsibility

[13:54]
areas in ministry. And, yeah, for good reason sometimes. But I think we're missing out on letting people carry the weight of responsibility and the joy of real ministry by holding them responsible for doing those things. So I'd say hold them for the things that they said they would do. Now, there's just things off the top of my head. I might pause just there and say, is any of those things.

[14:25]
You want to ask questions about any of those? It sometimes takes a different type of personality to break down the steps. One type of personality is really good at vision and big picture. Sometimes it takes others. Yeah. Have you found that any experience? Maybe you can cover both. I don't know, but how does that work for you? Good call. If you identify in yourself that you can see the picture of where we're going to view.

[14:59]
The steps toward there are really muddy for you. Yeah, absolutely. Get someone in alongside you who can help you clarify that. And let them help you map it out. Absolutely. So that's good. That's good. If you'd recognise you're good with vision but not with stepping it out, you've got to get someone who can see the steps toward that. And there will be people in your group who can. This is what they do. they love that stuff so they can help you map it out. Yeah. There's always different people in your groups too.

[15:30]
Understanding from personalities with help you deal with internal processes will just be sitting there quietly and right hand and leading the voice-olding their objections or later on privately. Lensian is good with helping you identify your personalities and the way they operate in the meetings. But, you know, getting your head around that stuff is really important. Yeah. Yeah. So there's how I aim to help people change. And bottom line, yep, we need to change.

[16:02]
People need to help them move so they come and they pay a great cost to go with us. Yeah. Any other questions? Are you selected the interview you're taking or are you, anyone on the job? I think it's good if you let the process itself select the process itself select the process. select the people. So people will opt in or opt out according to the intention and the objective of where you're going.

[16:32]
So if you're very clear about where you're going, we want to reach relaxed coast of people. And when people will come along to an information night where they want to check out that kind of thing, they sit down and you say, okay, so here's the mob we want to reach. Here's the things we think we need to do to reach those people. Do you think you can help us do that? Most people will be good at assessing the way. good at assessing whether they're going to be able to do that. And we did, we saturday had another people sit down with us who were initially excited that we're part of it. He was out there and went, oh, we don't think we can help reach those people because that's just not us.

[17:05]
And so that's far about to have people check it out, opt out, or checked it out, or opt in. And there were some people who thought, oh, you're probably not a really fit, but they really wanted to and have been great. So I reckon that people popped in or opt out, according to how to how to that, what we're attempting to do. We'll go to Phil. So, what are doing this all of envisioning and showing things, all the things, by yourself or any team at all of the four, what great, what number of people you are handling the situation?

[17:41]
Sure, so is it just me doing that or is there a team? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess it depends on the scenario of what you're working on. Getting Saturday up and running, It was just me and Deb, my wife, thinking where do we want to go with this? And then sharing that with those who we thought can be a part of it. Peninsula has been a whole different story because it's been working with the senior leadership in the church and clarifying, be sure this is where we want to go, how do we think it could look, clarifying stuff there, and then letting it flow out from there.

[18:14]
So it depends on the context, I think. Yeah, the science. I think you said there about 54 members of the launching the new church. Yep. So those 50 people is actually initially your target people who are leading? Were those initial 50? Yeah. Part of the target group? Is that you say? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I brought some of them with me from Sydney.

[18:44]
So when we decided to start, I got on the phone with a couple of the guys who've been in ministry with for years and youth ministry and said, hey, we're going to kick this thing off. sing off, want to come be a part of it. And two of my best friends decided to quit their jobs, up to move up to help and start. So I already did have a couple of guys I've already worked with for years who I think didn't need to be one to the philosophy of ministry, didn't need to be one of the concept. They didn't kind of we could speak the same language yet.

[19:14]
It wasn't just mean. It was probably me. Two other guys and their wives and kids kind of kind of included that are a bunch of 50 in that mob. Yeah, but working really hard to do that.