[0:00]
I'm going to do another presentation here. This is a presentation when we use talk about the gospel and the mission. And I want to talk some about how this relates to reaching the unreached and the unengaged. I want to do this with a couple of things. I'm going to use some going to write on the screen over here and also use this presentation to share a little bit about the topic.

[0:30]
I want to do the gospel project is something we develop for the gospel project. Any of you users of the gospel project in your church? Anyone? A couple of them here? Okay. The gospel project. I'm the general editor of the gospel project. So it's something we launched out of our desire to have a more theologically robust approach to training people in churches. It actually goes from children to all the way to adults. And it's crazy. We launched this a little over two years ago. And we now have 775,000 people.

[1:00]
We're using a gospel project. It's the craziest thing. I never see anything like it. So it just shows the hunger. I think the desire to look at this theological framework that's here. So one of the things that we're often asked is, well, how does the gospel and the mission has this all relate? And how does it relate to us reaching unreaching and unengaged people? Which is what I'm going to talk about today. Now, I'm going to start by just kind of putting together a picture of framework, right? A matrix, if you will, of how we're thinking about the gospel in two descriptions of the gospel. There's a personal description of the gospel. And then also we have here a cosmic description of the gospel. Now cosmic, cosmic means that, you know, the cosmos in the sense of the world, the universe, all that is. And ultimately, how God is redeeming all things. So when we look at this from the meta-nare, the big story, the meta-nare, we're talking about creation, fall, redemption, and restoration. Right?

[1:57]
So that's the big picture, creation, fall, redemption, and restoration. That's the gospel in its cosmic description. That ultimately, we live now between redemption and restoration. When we talk about earlier, when God's going is redeeming a people, and those people are about restoration, but ultimately, he's going to restore all things. So we're between redemption and restoration on this journey of time. Now how long will that last? I don't know. So we've come this far, and now we're between here. I don't know if we're right here. I don't know if we're right here. I don't know if 10,000 years ago, people talk about us as the early church, or if Jesus is going to restore all things before that. But I do know we live between the times.

[2:45]
Now the challenges, too, is that's not the only description of the gospel. And we have to find a way to rightfully integrate these, is that there is a personal description of the gospel. That's often been described this way as God, man, and by man we mean men and women, but God, man, Christ, response. So God is holy and just, right? God has got us perfect. And man, men are, men and women are sinners in need of redemption, and ultimately, to be saved by a loving savior. And so God, man, and then Christ is the means of our reconciliation to God and our response to him is essential and important for us to understand.

[3:29]
So God, man, Christ, response is a picture of the personal dimension. And of course, that comes together in Christ and what Christ did on the cross when Jesus died on the cross, four hours sin in our place. When he said it is finished, that was not a statement of his own life or breath. That was a statement of his own work. It is finished that God then validated by raising him from the dead. So the cross is so important, so central, so essential for us to ultimately understand. And so, so, so here's the picture, right? So the empty cross and tomb are central to both cosmic and personal redemption and restorations.

[4:10]
So remember, the cosmic description, the personal description come together here, right? In God, man, Christ, response. So this is the personal description as the response. And ultimately, the cosmic description will be laid out in the restoration of all things. So, so we have the cross as central to that. And then what I want you to see is this, I want to sort of take, right? So I move this in, right? You can kind of see that I moved in the big graphic, right? I put the cross on it here. And now I want to do, I want to kind of blow up the section from redemption in Christ to the restoration of all things.

[4:47]
And so, so let me just, let me just take that and kind of lay that out like this, right? So from redemption to restoration, redemption to restoration is where we are now, right? So the completed work of redemption leads to our ongoing mission. So here's where we are now, right? So, so the foundational truth and principle, principle is the wrong word, the foundational truth and reality of our redemption is the gospel made real in our lives. And so we begin with that foundation, but, but there are some, some implications that flow from the gospel, right? So the people have got radiate, people have got radiate the gospel both gathered and scattered.

[5:32]
So foundational gospel truth is in the redemption, implications of that gospel we're going to see. And then their applications that really become the mission and ultimately the culmination of all things in restoration. So, so, so the foundation of principle here. So, so, so what are some things that are implications of the gospel that though they themselves are, are not the gospel? It's not necessarily say everything is the gospel. So, people often try to load up the gospel. People often try to load up their gospel, right? So, people say what's missing in our gospel? The, the whole in our gospel is, is a, is a well known, is a well known book, which actually rich turns is the author. And so I might, I endorsed his next book. I just differed with this book. And so, so rich said in there that it kind of holds the gospel and that's, and that's missing the, the poor in our gospel. And I would say, no, no, I think I think that's a whole in our mission. So I would just nuance a little differently. But don't try to be more biblical than the Bible.

[6:30]
Because clearly there is a sense that from the gospel radiating out our implications and those implications include things like the need for proclamation and demonstration. And so, so somewhere you notice the color sort of change. This is more mission. This is more gospel. But somewhere there, I mean this is it's listen, we this, we have a gospel shaped mission and a mission shaped gospel. What's a miss that we have a gospel shape mission and a mission shaped gospel. Now, I want to be careful. We don't load up the gospel with everything that is the mission. Also, we would be careful. They don't want to take out of the mission. Everything that Jesus puts in the mission. But we want to have a gospel shape mission and a mission shaped gospel. And these things sort of begin to flow together, right?

[7:14]
So the foundation of redemption, the work of Christ on the cross for our sin in our place that creates a new people, a new king, a new people, a new way of life that because of the gospel itself cares about the proclamation of the gospel to the lost, the demonstration of the gospel to the broken. Those are implications that flow out of the radiated gospel that flow out of the gospel itself. And until there's implications and then there's some applications of that as well. This is just a few of them, right? Some applications. And and and and when we look at those applications is we get a picture of things like evangelism and discipleship of of mercy, ministry of church planting of cross cultural missions. Now, this is where we're going to talk about some about kind of where we are now. And I think one of the challenges we need to clear understanding of of the gospel.

[8:07]
And I also we need to gain a greater confidence of it, but we clear understanding greater confidence in the gospel, the implications of it. And then there are going to be some applications of it. They're going to help us to reach, unreached and unengaged people. Now, we're going to do that through evangelism. And I will tell you, you know, Christians love evangelism as long as somebody else is doing it. And I think that's that's part of the part of the challenge is that we have to learn that. Evangelism is is the task of every believer there's not even a gift of evangelism in the Bible. You may have heard it may very thought. But the Bible does never mention a gift of evangelism ever anywhere. Now you're going to look it up. I know it's someone's going to email me. It mentions the evangelist and the evangelist helps all God's people to engage in their responsibility of evangelism.

[8:57]
There's a responsibility not a gift. And so so evangelism is a mercy ministry is right serving the hurting in the midst of a broken hurting world. And that's one of the reasons that the salvos I think are so respected by so by so many is that they have this beautiful connection. Many of you might not know. Maybe you do know, but the states a lot of people don't know this salvation army is also a church, not also a church. And so so but why because because they have an instant credibility because of what they've known for and what they have done why because they're applying mercy ministries here as well. Now I will tell you and you know this no secret to you they're having a challenge taking the opportunity that their great reputation gives them to evangelize and start more churches.

[9:44]
It's a tricky thing. I've been working some with the Canadian Salvation Army on this very very issue. So these are all things that sort of flow out of that a couple more things here and then we'll we'll go into some some some some specifics. So while the gospel is not our work but Christ's work Jesus finished work leads to our ongoing work. Okay, so we don't want to mix we don't miss that right that the gospel again we don't want to we don't want to load up the gospel. But we do want to make sure the mission is rightfully loaded up how will we load up the mission well the mission is certainly more than these two things but therefore the mission is gospel proclamation preaching the gospel gospel demonstration living out simplifications and showing people.

[10:24]
So we are a missionary people reflecting a missionary got our mission flows out of the gospel flows out of the gospel. Okay, now you say well I want a very clear delineation. I know you do unfortunately that's not what the New Testament gives us. Now now because we see like preaching the gospel of the kingdom or the in breaking of the kingdom and then we see Paul and first Corinthians saying that that this is a first importance of this is the gospel and then and then we see this references the gospel of kingdom. So here's what I would say is that we want to make sure we don't load up the gospel which what that which should not be there.

[10:59]
We want to make sure that the that those are implications of the gospel things we should do and and must do because of the gospel and then the applications are going to be in the mission so notice the color of the line sort of shift in the middle as the gospel and its implications then become the mission and its applications. And so we're a missionary people reflecting a missionary got our mission flows from the gospel and again the gospel is settled and finished but rich with implications and applications that flow that flow from it. So at the end of the day our call and our cause is to join Jesus on his mission to this broken and hurting world. Now let me let me talk about Australia for just a bit. Now again when I say I talk about Australia I know and I recognize that you know that I'm not Australian though maybe when I said wrecking it sort of threw you off.

[11:46]
But I I I reckon this doesn't look like this looks like a permanent marker so I'm going to I'm I'm trying to check before I before I mess it up. No I guess it's not okay. Okay. Well that's hence the big line that says whiteboard marker. But anyway so. So one of the challenge after recognize here is that there is a there's a great diversity something I word there's a great shift going on in in our culture today.

[12:16]
Okay so there's a great shift going on in our culture today and that shift can can largely be described and defined by by when you look at and you get a picture if you will and what you want to try to do is to give you a picture get a picture if you will. Of actually what Christian means to different people so let me show you what I mean by this shift in culture then I think we'll help us to get a better picture of the unreached and the unengaged so so in in Australia depending upon who you ask the the Austrians represent about about 60 about 60 to 65% of Australians are Christians.

[12:57]
Now now I recognize something like you're objecting that before I finish the sentence but I'm just telling you what they say okay so I know you think they're the wrong but I mean I but that's what they say so when answering a survey now it's it's it's on the low end on the census on the and and and and it's a little higher like Macrendy will has it I think it's mid 64 64 point something 64 point five but so 60 to 65% are are are are are Christians now now so that was a lot of the

[13:27]
believes that that leaves this other chunk up here right are non Christians so non Christians are in two broad categories you have other religions some people are non Christians because they're Jewish or Hindu or Muslim so you have other religions and and and and then you have a secular people in the other side who just basically say no I'm not Christian I'm I'm just I'm just secular I could be atheistic, no stick or just what we sometimes call the the nuns the nuns if you notice the spelling is no NES

[13:57]
not nuns like the ladies with the cool hats but nuns as in none of the above so when they fill out a survey they don't say they're their Jewish Hindu Christian Lutheran Baptist they say I'm nothing I'm none of the above now so so but here so here's the picture that we're seeing right so well in here now this I took I'm taking this from with compressed Australian numbers I'm taking this from an article I wrote in the kind of the national newspaper in in my country called USA today and the I asked me to write an analysis of

[14:27]
sort of cultural trend data related Christianity occasion like columns for them and so and so I described that you have to understand that though you hear like so 75% of Americans say that they're Christians and you know it's different it shifts in different ways Australia is a little lower than UK little higher than New Zealand but so what I said is you have to divide the Christians into three segments or categories maybe divides the wrong word you just have to categorize them and so so really you have to recognize that about you know you break down different levels but

[14:57]
about 66 65% say they're Christian but for for most of them they're actually in these in these first two categories which we're going to call nominal Christians they're actually the first two categories so those are the nominal Christians okay so in other words they they name themselves Christians because they don't want to be atheists nobody likes atheists right so and I know what to be other religions I mean really atheism have better reputation so so they're they're they're not Muslims they're not atheists so they say they're Christians because I don't want to fill out a

[15:27]
census form and say that that they're one of the other things right so that's how they explain it so with that being said there's there's here what I call in this article and I'll explain here there are cultural Christians there are congregational Christians and they're both in the category of nominal Christians so cultural Christians are people who have really no connection to an ongoing congregational practice or anything of that sort but they're just not something else they're Australian

[15:57]
because I'm Australian because of the history you know because we came over in the fleet in the chaplain and the and the first churches and and you know an Anglicanism and subsequently the other faith traditions as well I'm Christian okay so that makes up a chunk of the people who say that they're that their Christians in Australia but but still there's another category and that's those who are congregational Christians okay so congregational Christians you may see them at Christmas and Easter right so we call them Christus because Christmas and Easter but so with congregational Christians they're not really ordering their lives around their faith they're not really serious necessarily about what it means to be a committed believer so Christian to them is is something that's related to a heritage but also has some congregation maybe their baptizes a baby they're married in a church and you can actually see that in government you'll see this during Anzac Day you'll see on Anzac Day that there will be some connections it has a it has a religious

[16:57]
feel to it right and so there'll be some church connections churches will hold ceremonies and celebrations and memorials on that day you saw that when the Duke and Duchess were here and they they they came and they they got the fleet Bible and they actually signed at the city Anglican Cathedral they signed the fleet Bible along with I guess three monarchs of signed the the fleet Bible and and so why because there's a connection a congregational connective connection that's historic but I don't necessarily think of people say they're they're ordering their lives around it in the culture okay so and so it's funny so we actually I got to saw saw the fleet Bible held the fleet Bible

[17:39]
well because it's held it it's held at that church I preach that on on Sunday and and the guy who was the bloke who was shown into me it's very funny because you know the Queen Elizabeth signed it when she was raining as monarch with those two weren't weren't monarchs at the time of the time but later would become them and then but she the guy the guy made a point saying oh and then there's this fellow he married an American woman and I was like yeah I'm kind of know the story and I'm really sorry about that and so it was a big mess but it was funny so but but so but there's still a sense you know most you know you know what's fleet Bible people in Australia might know something so they're because they might go to

[18:14]
church I've heard that at Christmas Easter or maybe when they were younger now here's the thing I want you to miss okay but there's a percentage of people who call themselves Christians in our society that it's actually another another word is it's actually conviction now conviction now that's includes it's includes evangelicals but also include Roman Catholics include include main line main line you don't use the term main line here so much I think you know what I'm talking about when I say but more of the Australian National Council of Churches you know so so but there are people in all through those three

[18:49]
traditions and more where where they they they tend to take their faith seriously they order their lives around their faith it I make they make decisions based on their faith and here's the thing I want you to hear this is important the percentage of people in the conviction Christian category has not declined precipitously in the last several decades you say well as the church is declined Catholicism is is collapsing and and the United Church is in free fall and those are all true things but what's

[19:21]
happening is those who are convictionally Christians tend to pass on the faith to the next generation majority of people who are conviction Christian parents have conviction Christian children and this number has remained relatively steady though a minority in australian culture a little more in Canada a little more in more more still in the U.S. a little less than the U.S. in the UK and so so so what's you have here is this so what's happening so why does it feel like society is so much more secular and anti-Christian because it is

[19:51]
but the secular and anti-Christian and again anti-Christian I want to be careful because we're not being persecuted you know there's you know the fact that people don't wish you marry Christmas when you go and buy something at the store and you snarl back at them Jesus is the reason for the season is probably not helpful you know that's not their job to spread the good news but so so here's the thing so what's happening is this there's a statistical shift going on right now but the shift that's going on right now and I'm going to project out a continue of this is this the shift that's going on is the mushy middle right is collapsing and this is why we're seeing this in mainstream

[20:28]
anglicanism in australia in the uniting church and catholicism and elsewhere it's a little less so a little less so in evangelicalism and even less so among panacostles among which plain why just a second but one of the reasons is that the mainstream churches which are now the minority by the way the mainstream NCC Protestant churches are now the minority of church attendees there's more evangelicals attending churches in australia than there are mainstream NCC national church churches Australian churches but what's happening is they had a lot more nominals why do they have more nominals well you can make a theological

[21:00]
case so well they didn't do this or do that whatever but here's another reality they've been around a lot longer the longer you've been around the more nominal people yeah the more that your initiation ritual is connected to a time when you didn't know about it the more nominals yeah in other words you baptize babies you have more nominal Christians so then you have evangelicals who call for a belief a personal conversion there might be when they're 10 or 12 or whatever they have less nominals and then you take panacostles who now I have a personal conversion but have a subsequent experience that is out of the mainstream the digital physical evidence of speaking in tongues and

[21:32]
things of that sort so it's hard it's hard to be a nominal panacostle because either you're speaking in tongues or you're not it's hard to be speaking in tongues and be nominal is that make sense okay so and again no don't well I don't believe in that I get it all right so say with me I'm just I'm just talking about cultural social cultural realities right so so the picture here is this is that this is where the the big squeeze is going on and and what's happening statistically is that the nominals are actually bailing out and becoming the nuns without changing much about

[22:04]
their practice but just changing their label by the way this is my family so my family when I grew up Irish Catholic most of my family said they were Catholic today my and they but they weren't they were nominal Catholics today they just say they're nothing so nothing's happened except it becomes less valuable in culture it's not that important to identify as a Christian in Australia today 100 years ago if you didn't identify as Christian you probably couldn't win an election you probably wouldn't be on a school function or an elected school function today announcing you're a Christian to aggressively could keep you off the school leadership so this is shift in

[22:38]
culture so but what's happened is this is key right so what you have is now is now the majority of people in culture are either secular or nominal so the two big challenges right now in our culture are nominalism and secularism you say ed you say there's secularism too many yeses all right say ed well you're saying those are the only two big no no I said those are two big issues because I would say people of other faiths need to hear the gospel right I want to preach the

[23:08]
gospel Hindus and Muslims and Jews and everybody who needs to hear the gospel but the two big categories in Australia right now are nominal Christians and secular people and the nominals are actually shrinking because they're switching over to be secular people while the percentage of people who are convictionally religious a percentage of which are convictionally evangelical is actually a pretty substantive minority but here's why it feels so different in the culture today the reason it feels so different why it's like we're feels like we're in the middle of a great shift we are because and this is key right so if you went back 50 years ago the percentage of

[23:43]
people who are attending church on a on a high level was never a major never a majority of people attending church in recent decades in Australia but the difference was 50 years ago everyone sort of was a little higher but everyone sort of here sort of let the convictional Christians set the rules set the morality set the agenda right so what's happened though is what's shifted is is now the secular people are actually setting the agenda and bringing in cultural Christians and

[24:13]
congregational Christians and even though they call themselves Christians they act and think more like secular people which they're starting to actually label themselves more like secular people as well so the nominals are becoming the nuns cultural and congregational Christians are thinking and acting like secular people and it's becoming very evident that convictional Christians really are a minority in culture there's never been a majority of convictional Christians in Australian society in the recent decades and yet we're recognizing now that we are not a religious majority we

[24:43]
are instead a prophetic minority that needs to be omissioned for the causes of Christ and his gospel so we've got secular and nominal right so secularism nominalism but secular and nominal and so what we've got here is unreached and unengaged unengaged so as we look to the unreached and the unengaged we have to recognize that in the context where we find ourselves that our mission and our call and our

[25:15]
strategy has to be driven by new cultural realities because the church has lost its home field advantage in the English-speaking West it used to be the chaplain to culture it's lost its home field advantage so we have to recognize let me just give a few implications first don't give up on the nominals don't give up on the nominals there's a lot of nominal people who actually are open to the men the Pentecostal asked earlier it's still a lot of nominal people are open institutional

[25:47]
church they've sort of been turned off or turned away or never even considered it so don't give up on the nominals find ways to strategically and I wrote about this just for Easter to strategically engage your Easter and your Christmas opportunity that's a chunk of people that's a that's a chunk of percentage of people who are nominal Christians and Australia the opportunities there we're gonna have to start teaching our people to reach secular people the best book on the subject is actually by an American I wish I had an Australian book that was really deal with this in the same way I'd recommend it to you in a second but it's by a guy named James Emory White it's called the rise of the nuns and how to give basically how to engage them I had the privilege of I think I wrote the

[26:21]
forward or I'm on the cover or something but I'm I'm this is I didn't help with the book but I'm a big fan of the book it's how are we going to engage secular people who when we open a bible and say the wages of sin is death they say what do you mean sin what do you mean death and why do I have to believe the bible and so there are ways to shift this and the ways that we we change and I've gone too long probably to address some of these that I actually I'm trying to decide if I if I can pull it off but but what I would say is is a couple of things that may that may help as

[26:51]
you as you're preaching I would encourage you to consider that you may need to engage in apologetics in in in in in just read in the your regular message in other words uh and you know who's who's the greatest is Tim Keller you know he's reaching a secular place in New York City and he'll be going through I'm going through the gospel of Matthew right now and I try to do this and and I'll be preaching through Matthew and somebody you know I know people are there and I'm talking about these miracles and they're like they're no miracles so I'll say just as an aside hey listen if if you don't think there are miracles or miracles could exist let me explain how your world

[27:24]
is getting you there and how ultimately it doesn't make sense and and so I so I'll go that direction and so I encourage you to consider more apologetics I encourage you to recognize that we're starting in a religious deficit don't stand up and I think people have a religious memory to which you can appeal they don't um you can't get up and say you remember when we you know in the bible when this happened or that happened no they can't remember in the bible when this or that happened um I I'd also add that the greatest apologetic to secular people is not going to be the fact that the prophecies and the Old Testament kind of reflect and come through in the New Testament the greatest

[27:56]
apologetic to secular people is going to be that the people they know who are genuine Christians live radically different lives and are living with a piece that passes all understanding and lastly I would say that don't be afraid to tell the story the tell the story of of the gospel and actually call people and to say them you know there is there really is a creation fall redemption restoration help them to understand what the big picture that Christians believe means and challenges the ways that undermine perhaps the defeat or beliefs in their lives again I use

[28:27]
I'm relying on Keller's term for defeat or beliefs as well so I'll give you a big big picture let's go to questions because I want to make sure we want we didn't have enough time for questions before we want to make sure we really honor your time with questions so I'll turn it over to these guys for Q&A. I remember I grew up in a part of Australia that's secularized very quickly after early and in reflection my older brother had when he did an exchange program in the insider Dutchman back in the area in the summer the early 80s was with a large decision

[29:01]
normal Christians attend each church you see what was harder than any Christian in some respects we believe it was better because in evangelizing people the distinction between being a real disciple of Jesus and their lifestyle is clear except actually while living those hardest actually easy to evangelize reflections on that yeah yeah I do think in a place where nominalism is prevalent

[29:32]
devotion is not and and so you know I live in the 11th American South and I'm not from the American South I'm from New York City in New York City when you're an evangelist is what we call a target rich environment the American South everyone is everyone actually thinks they're a believer I mean they actually think they're saying they don't need to say I'm a Christian in the generic sense basically I was saved when I was eight you know I was kind of costal or Methodist or Baptist or church or Christ or something that effect and I will tell you I have raising three daughters in the American South I have to be careful saying this going to work or miss I do think in some

[30:07]
ways it's been dangerous for their spiritual health okay and they've said that they've said you know everyone we know sort of like a Christian but they're not and and and you know when I was planning churches I planted a church in the inner city of Buffalo New York one of our poorest cities and very secular environment I think I tell you you knew you knew who was a Christian who wasn't and when you became a Christian it was a radical change of life and so I do think that and there are certain places here you know we have you know sunshine coast right and in that

[30:37]
disproportionately got a church presence in their places like that that are Bible beltish in Australia you know but but but but I think that it confuses what the converted life actually looks like well basically the culture feels religious and you just basically go to church or not then it confuses that so I'm actually I'm not excited about the secularization of the west but I do think one of the good outcomes of what I think is probably a bad thing is that what a

[31:10]
Christian is is going to be much more clear and so I don't anticipate that in 50 years the majority 50 years from now you know it's all surely be different place Melbourne will be the largest city in Australia and they will mock Sydney incessantly for this one of the other things is the 50 years now the majority of people living Australia won't identify as Christian some of that's because of the way your immigration patterns have changed you actually you historically brought in people from you know first thing that includes speaking anglicans but

[31:41]
but then even the other immigration patterns were from Europe and places like that and so they all that identifies Christian you if they're not committed well now you're it's more Asian immigration which follows of other world religions so so there's that but also too I just think for most Australians are just going to get honest like Americans and the Brits are getting honest that no I'm just not and so when that happens what is will be more evident and therefore the contrast will be more clear so I think it will be both harder and easier to be a Christian at the same time

[32:13]
will be harder because there is a certain value of being a Christian that where I live you know people don't do certain things because it's a churchy kind of culture and so that benefits my parenting perhaps in some ways my children are not faced with some of the aggressive secular worldly things that they might be faced if I agree if they grew up in New York City so it's harder but it's also easier and it's easier and that I can they go along with the stream of culture it's harder because they're going along with the stream of religious culture and here's the way

[32:45]
I put it I think people in religious culture are inoculated against the gospel so and it's not going to be so I my back Scott never talking he got he's got to take one of his kids in for their for their inoculations vaccinations that would you call me or vaccinations we call inoculation same idea they're going to inject your child with a weakened or deadened version of a disease that they will build up antibodies to so they're resistant to the real thing that could kill them so they might even feel sick for a day or two right a little sore for a day or two well I think that when you're in a religious area you've inoculated the whole population with a

[33:20]
weakened version that makes you resistant to the real thing and so I think they're in as the danger so being a Christian and secular society gives the opportunity for a clear proclamation of the gospel and clear life change just harder sometimes as well it's a great question yes yes sir thank you my name is Jack along an anglican priest great and you say priest you say priest which all the anglicans that I've met so far in in Australia don't say priest so it's nice to reason anglican who says priest I've been to Sydney yeah as opposed to and you know from yeah I hang with

[33:51]
the hangling because I hang with or you know Archbishop Kalini and you know and and Akonola and those guys but anyway so tell me more there's some English writing a few years ago and I've talked about the situation in the UK yeah having a group of people who are still attend church and all the nominals were alive as well in the 60s yeah and a group of people who used to attend church in the last generation and divided the D church they used that word to open D church and close D church and the closed D church for people who they all that time is used to do church

[34:22]
and Jesus and all that but we cracked on them and they left did they actually say crap on them okay but I was I get the point though where do we do any wrong commission in Australia about institutional ideas of children yeah I've read and a number of churches are being humiliated by that including including sure and the sounders and etc the closed D church who kind of met Christians and we heard them any any any comment on how you how you engage with

[34:53]
yeah by the way my my grandfather in law was was uh in in in Canada from the UK it was called the homes of Wafeson Strays and my grandfather was was one of those when Donna and I went to in in Halifax there's there's the the port of entry where most of the people came not a looked up in the computer and they found her grandfather and they immediately oh we're so sorry here's some information about what happened because they were part of that that abuse and that that that challenges in different years a different year as you know um you know we were talking about

[35:28]
reaching D church people you know they they with some as language we used um they're they're unchurched because they went to church and something happened um and so and so then they dropped out of church and and you're right I think there are the open uh the open D church then the closed D church and the closed D church are generally closed D church because of experience of a negative thing it might be the might be a pastor's kid you know I was I was in an airport um I sign I use sign language it wouldn't be the same here because it's it's uh American sign language

[36:00]
but I started a deaf church and I'm in the airport I'm seeing this this kid talk and um with the server writing some things down so I just turned around and started a conversation turns out he was an Australian Christian church, some of these are God who's an assemblies of God pastor's kid but he was man he just burned in the church his dad was treated poorly and so he just burned in the church many wouldn't open it all it's it's just it's just a brokenness that's there I would say some of the hardest people to reach are people that have been reached and are now unreached uh it's not just there there's that they're inoculated it's up there they a bit of a revolution towards the

[36:31]
things of the faith so what I would say is um a couple of things first um and this is off top of my head people like that are generally going to be reached by churches not like the one that burned them and I'll just mean like jerks and non jerks right but what I mean is that if you got burned in a pennacostal church you might hear the gospel in an anglican church you got burned in an anglican church you might hear the gospel in a Baptist church and so so I think you have to recognize and that it might be somebody who you walk in and there's a difference and it feels different from where you actually are so the second thing I would say is that you know I saw a friend once witness and

[37:07]
someone he was explaining sure they were sharing the gospel someone was explaining some of the why they were de-churched and and they had a great phrase I think it's helpful they said they said well I couldn't follow a god like that either I think a disavowal of the Christian action and the name of god is sometimes a good thing to do so I I couldn't if if if that was god I wouldn't want to follow that either but then that open people well what do you mean that's not god no here's the god of that that I know here's the god god of the Bible here's here's the god that Christians believe in but I think you have to you have to defeat the the perception that this is what Christianity is

[37:43]
that has hurt them so much now sometimes what hurt them so much is something that is a genuine Christian belief but it can be expressed lovingly and graciously what we say is how we say it is is is is it's exceedingly important not just what we say so I think that's been a key issue you know I would say too our experience has been is that takes time um you know I guess it takes time for everybody but it takes a long time and what I would say is is people who've been burned by church you may actually help them engage in Christian community that's not congregational but it's actually

[38:13]
just Christian in other words um it might start you know I think of my neighbor one of my neighbors that I mentioned um you know for her she was she was burned in a church and then says a different view that our church on on an issue that that's significant and so but for her she was burned I mean she she's very much burned in a church and so what I would say is when we just want to love her and be her friend we watch we watch our kids we're friends we're neighbors we we invite her over for dinner we we pray when we do we we invite her to use your services and um

[38:44]
but we're recognizing that takes a long time my my my my my family most of my dad's side of the family is not believers my my mom's side of the family my mother and her husband you know that was my friends got divorced my mother and her husband are um our believers and actually in the in the Orthodox tradition there they they're Eastern Orthodox now he's a priest so my stepfather's an Eastern Orthodox priest I'm like a walking ecumenical movement um and um but when my sister died my sister died of a rare form of cancer when she was a young adult and um that's what cemented

[39:21]
my father's secularism in a lot of ways and has wrong words secularism he's spiritual but not religious but it it my mother who is a pastor's wife priests priests wife um she walked away from the faith for seven years um she she just said I couldn't I can't follow a god that would allow such a I see my daughter tortured to death by chemotherapy and um and I think and and you know my stepfather and I are not particularly close I mean very self-referential and probably giving too much

[39:54]
information we're not particularly close um got he could they got married when I was a teenager and you know having a teenage step when to step step to step to have a teenager never goes well um but what he did is and I've seen him do with others he just loved her and kept showing the love of Christ to her and her hurt which was not by church people though there were some church people the there was a couple of you know church people said really dumb things it must be God's will this must be God's best there must be something around the corner that's better what's better than your daughter living and not dying a slow death from cancer um but for her one of the things I appreciate

[40:31]
about my stepfather even though like said we're not close is that he was patient enough and loving enough there's seven years and now she's walking with the Lord and her life has been you know reset around the things of faith and see and and and so I just think that patience thing can't be understated one of the things there was a study of uh and I I wish I could remember the study off top of my head and I can't remember who did it but I do remember it was good is that of of convinced atheists I think it was half of convinced atheists were actually people of faith who had a bad experience of some sort like my mom would walk away because of illness or like a church kind of

[41:06]
you know did something bad or whatever and what I would say is um I think the answer in those kinds of choice can be patient loving um you know the appealing we you know second Corinthians 5 we plead on Christ the FB Reconzaldi Godwell that's going to be a lot of love before we actually get to that but it's a great question I don't know that I answered it particularly well um yeah but I like to think more on it um but I think it's a it's a great question and important question so I'll actually what I did which you may notice that I reached down and I turned on my phone because I recorded that because I want to think more on that and I want to write it out a little

[41:37]
bit more and I want to think more and so if you read it at et cetera calm you're expecting a couple weeks I'm going to write out and kind of add some stuff to that so thanks so much glad you're here as well and uh good to good to see a priest because uh I'm used to Anglicans having priests so yeah who else yeah well you said two

[42:13]
things you said there's something more which I would think would be easier than there's something wrong is that is that true or just just stay back up don't don't don't it's okay talk to me it's a little bit easier to talk about something more but not very much but not very much yeah yeah yeah well and I think I think you know I mean part of the problem in western culture is we're doing quite well even after global financial crisis most people are doing quite well and conversions that take place among secular people who are from students to adults conversions like that take place because

[42:48]
most of the time there's some sort of cataclysmic event in somebody's life that sort of gets them there was my case right so I you know began to believe her as a as a young man a teen but I did because my life was messed up and Jesus was a better way and what do you do in a materialistically successful hedonistic culture this is all going pretty good and it shouldn't surprise us you know Jesus speaks of you know the rich easier to go through the you know a camel to go through the Ivan Edel then for the rich and the rich certainly define English speaking western culture I mean

[43:19]
that that by the standards of the global reality today and the global history we're certainly rich so so but if if the challenges is how do you persuade them there's something more and how do you persuade them that there's something wrong I like how you phrase that I think both require some intentionality I think something more is is I think my experience has been most people do think that there's something beyond which is not quite the same as saying something more there's something out there and I think in that case I think lovingly to persuade that I mean there

[43:54]
really has to be something to be considered to the fact that there was a guy who was dead on Friday and on Sunday not so much and so what does that mean for us so I think one of the things that that I'm increasingly convinced that will help people be persuaded there's something more and there's something wrong is will be in in the kind of community conversation like like I mentioned I had alpha on the screen earlier and I recognize you know some some of you would not be in the alpha kind of idea it's decidedly charismatic and kind of different approach but or even Christianity

[44:26]
Christianity explored or or you know those kinds of conversational community things where the group has a discussion that both challenges the temporalness of existence in conversation and really defeats some of the underlying belief systems that that try to press down that there's not something more so I think at the end I think there's something more part in my view I kind of rely on Augustine my heart is rest our hearts are restless until they find their rest in the

[44:58]
Augustine would say we call that the heart shaped the god shaped hole in all of us so so there's something more part I think would be best addressed in a conversation where people are challenging one another the something wrong part I think is a little harder maybe a little harder maybe a lot harder I would think a lot harder you're saying a little harder but it's certainly harder and I think that that the something wrong has to be for me I actually don't do this so much with secular people god man Christ's response and part of the reason I don't do that is I this first

[45:29]
thing I did with my dad so I came new believer you know just came to Christ at some camp that my mother made me go to to hear the gospel and I come home and I say to my dad dad are you saved first thing I said dad are you saved and he said saved from what and I said I don't know but you need to be you know and so I wasn't exactly the most gifted evangelist but I would say that when I just recently my dad my dad went through a he called me up and said he's going to go into some surgery that was life threatening and aneurysm I had to have her paired his brain and

[46:02]
he did be life threatening or he could lose his mental faculties so I said well can I come down to talk to you and you know I've been chairing my dad the gospel for 30 plus years so he's I imagine he smiled and said sure bring your Bible I didn't bring my Bible but I think I did bring my buddy but he didn't say that so I on three days notice I booked a flight and flew down to cross the country and to meet him for lunch the most expensive ham sandwich I've had in my life because buying a flight on sure knows that challenging so my dad's really smart smart guy he's

[46:33]
a very successful business consultant who's on a beach in Florida and so I flew down there and I will tell you that I didn't I didn't do God man Christ response what I said to my and we had three hour conversation we we laughed together we wept together we prayed together he's very open it's the most intense in-depth conversation I've had about the gospel with anybody who didn't trust in follow Christ and he didn't trust in follow Christ he's not a he's not a believer today so but what I did is I I talked about this that clearly there is a and I use some apologetics there I mean I you know and I'm starting with apologetics is that there's clearly a creator and why

[47:08]
why we talked about this or there's clear you know I mean you know sort of you you know some of your presuppositional apologetics whatever but I I use some of the classic arguments I didn't talk about them I didn't say I'm going to now move into the ontological argument my father we're going to get to the tiliose cosmology anyway you know I didn't do that but I just started there until I said so let's talk about it so the world was good but it's broken dad you you can see the world's broken your head is broken right you're going to go in for surgery because your head's broken and there's sin around this wars and there's injustice and and so but then and this is this is the

[47:39]
tricky part the lovingly and with joy and and and share this but at the end of the day it's the what's wrong question so and so I said that the world's broken and that's the ultimate question you have to ask is is why did Jesus die on the cross what was his purpose and said well I you know I guess you know he was a good example yeah and I get they was a good example but ultimately he died on the cross force in and in our place let's look at what he said and let's look at why he's said it now now I would tell you that's a that's a conversation to go on 30 years I wouldn't get

[48:09]
there in in in a three-hour conversation but but again it's it's helping to understand that God is holy and because of the holiness of God which maybe the hardest concept it might be the fundamental concept that everyone needs because of the holiness of God there's something wrong and that's something wrong this takes some time to get to so for me it's just recognizing that when you're working with secular people you're not starting like one step from I need Jesus you're starting like ten steps from why would I even need to need Jesus because they don't recognize this is something wrong so what I would say is in a picture of a redemptive plan I try to lay

[48:43]
that out but I also recognize that it's going to be multifaceted response is going to be they're going to see godly Christians and they're going to say oh I need what they have they're going to be challenged intellectually and they're going to say maybe what I'm believing is not right and they're going to be five or six things that together leads to the Holy Spirit uses to draw them to Christ and be changed by the power of the gospel but I don't think there's any like here's how to do that now again I would encourage you to read the book I mentioned where James Henry White the rise of the nuns which is basically about a reach secular people and there's a lot of other resources on there but that's in a short time just answer there that kind of the journey I would

[49:16]
try to go on okay probably time for one more from our uniting church pastor friend we've had an Anglican priest and now we have uniting pastor I'm really interested in the India you call it earlier and it relates of course to what we're looking at with the unreach and the nuns and the rise of the nuns looking at that whole understanding of the majority of people and the majority of churches of all the nominations yeah I'm engaged in meaningful ministry me hold on one second just see how he wrote that down he got that exactly right

[49:49]
good sorry it is oh yeah it's really good but what I'm interested in understanding more about it is what do you call us as the understanding of meaningful ministry yeah what is meaningful what is mission where does that need to sit with the history yeah why are we see this is the problem so problem of having people like you in my seminar because they give me one session and they don't allow me to give all of the the underpinning of that statistical statement so I'm a little bitter

[50:21]
towards Scott the Wolverine Sanders over this so all right so let me explain what we did is we surveyed 7,000 churches kind of all different denominational all different Protestant denominations traditions you can't Catholic churches aren't structured the same way that you can access surveys for example there's not like a who do I call is the pastor I need to talk to senior priest minister pastor there's nobody you can yeah exactly so research wise you can't you can't do that so so Protestant and so what we did then is we did a series of surveys of

[50:53]
the first the pastor minister priests perception of the involvement and then we have subsequent research surveys that show the people's perception of their involvement and we defined meaningful ministry as something beyond well actually let me give you the exact numbers okay so this is this is and it shifts and different but but primarily it's going to look like this is that about 20% of people in churches have something where they're engaging in something outside of a Sunday morning it could be preparation for teaching Sunday morning it could be doing some ministry could be some

[51:25]
home group so that's about 20% if you add people who have Sunday morning only responsibilities you get almost to 40% so that means 40% of the adult attendees of a typical church in an English speaking western cultural context has something that they do so that means 60% have no responsibilities related to church and ministry and mission and when I answer a question they're not also doing something outside in the community like they're not engaged in some you know my my wife for example wouldn't show up on a survey in a church because my wife teaches the undocumented immigrants of

[52:00]
children English as a second language as her ministry out of focus so so that means 60% of people on average are unengaged in meaningful ministry mission so ministry could be any role in a church mission could be in a role church or in an insider outside of the church but in other words 60% of church people go to church are really doing nothing nothing so I mean they're doing great they're probably loving their kids they're probably nice to their parents whatever but you know what I'm saying is is anything that's that's relatable to I've got a gift I'm using it to serve others so

[52:30]
that's how we how we determine that metric what's encouraging to this nice you guys getting wrestles I'll be quick what's encouraging to this and it's not because you're uniting church they're just they're very particular about time yeah except when they're talking so anyway so in again I love a country where sarcasm is a love language you know I live in the American south where if you're sarcastic people like it really sad but here all right so so um but here's the thing it's encouraging is what we found is about 10% of the churches actually have over 60%

[53:03]
of people actually engaged are involved you get to 5% of churches have 70 to 80% people involved now I don't want to get above that because I want there to be space and place for people who trying to figure out where they are in spiritual journey don't don't need to be getting involved there are people who are healing or even hiding and they're kind of on this journey so I actually left that stat didn't discourage me because I can find examples of models we wrote about in a book called transformational church stood models of actually higher level of engagement and involvement so I think more and more we're hearing people talk about that and I think that's an encouraging thing also an opportunity of us trying to shift the understanding of what he is mission what he is

[53:38]
yeah yeah yeah the person who said oh I don't do any minister or mission within the church or as an outreach it was actually a regular volunteer there no no we would include that we included that we included one of the questions was do you serve people in the community outside of your local church and that number included so no most people just aren't doing that so I know because you're you've you and I are both in a you know I have a passion for seeing more of that that's more of a main line passion and evangelicals are now more and more discovering social justice and engaging in ministries of mercy but no that was including that and by the way when a church has

[54:09]
a higher percentage of people who are serving the hurting in the community they're evangelistic opportunity and their evangelistic results are actually higher as well we found a statistical correlation between serving the hurting and evangelistic processes and success in a local church that's in the chapter on mission so my view of mission is is I think probably similar to where you it concludes serving the hurting but that was that that's still 60% are doing nothing and and here's it's going to be higher among your church than it is among Ben the Pentecostal's church because of some of the reasons that I said the longer you've been around the more historic

[54:41]
you are the more anomalies end to be 100 years from now Pentecostals will be dealing with the same thing that you that the United Church is dealing with and others are dealing with high percentage of nominal believers