Retirement is more than golf, gardening and travel. Once someone finishes work, they enter a new phase of life. Philip Hayes (EV Church, Erina), a retired eye surgeon, thought about what would happen if we used this as a great opportunity for the gospel. He’s developed a great ministry to help others transition to this new stage of life.

Phillip talks about:

• The life of a retiree is not what you think
• Retirees work better together. How do we get them together?
• Realigning their hearts to their new life stage
• Helping people to look back as well as looking forward
• What retirees can do in ministry

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The Course of Your Life

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TRANSCRIPT:

The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.

Today we have a great guest.I’ve got Philip Hayes with us from EV Church on the Central Coast.Thanks for joining us, Philip.Good to be here.Now, before we get into the episode, what what’s what’s one thing you think God is teaching you right now?Only one.

Only one.Gee, I seem to seem to learn something every day.The well, I heard something on the weekend which which I’ve been working on and he, he was talking about moment by moment, godliness and holiness.And he, he said every day should be love day.

And that was that sort of stuck with me.I think that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s doable.So actually reframe reframing my day a little bit through the eyes of love day, you know, and that movie goes everywhere from, you know, cups of tea for your wife to, to, you know, going to you all.

So there’s only I just think it made it a very manageable way to get holiness, the positive sides of doing doing being a holy and godly person and the fruits of the spirit moment by moment.So I thought that was that was every day is a love.Day I want to dig into that, but I can’t because we’ve got to do an episode.

So you press for the moment, you press play on the one thing and we’re looking today at helping workers transition into retirement.Today’s podcast is brought to you by the Ministry Training strategy.MTS is a network of gospel workers who share the vision of winning the world for Christ by multiplying gospel workers through ministry apprenticeships.

To find out more, especially on how to start an apprenticeship, head to mts.com dot AU.And now back to the podcast.OK Philip Retirements.It’s not a term that comes up in the Bible.

And yet you know, a lot of Australian workers are working hard to get there and you’ve developed something for retirees in at your church.But let’s start with your story.How did you you were working in the medical profession and you moved into retirement.Tell us a little bit about what you were doing and how you transitioned and what you’re doing now.

Yeah, well, I’ve had an amazing career and and so until recently or five years or so, I was an eye surgeon working on the Central Coast in public hospitals and private hospitals operating.Absolutely fantastic job.You can’t get a better job than helping people keep their sight or gain regain their sight and gratitude every day for doing, you know, cataract surgery and stuff.

So loved it, did it for 25 years and it was fantastic.And, but towards the back end of the career, a few things sort of came together.I, I noticed that a lot of my patients were passing away.

And so you look at their files at the end of the day and find that, you know, they’ve got great vision, you know, but they did, you know, and so you sort of think about the existential questions about what am I really, I’m giving, it’s great.What better thing can you give people than their sight?

And there is something better.And so then I’m reading John Chapter 9 and Jesus is heals the blind man.And, and it kind of really resonated with me that Jesus heals this blind man.And of course there’s all the political fallout and get kicked out of the synagogue and the rest of it.But then Jesus goes tracks him down and he sees Jesus for the first time and then he worships him.

So it’s sort of like the second miracle.He gets his eyesight back and then he gets his spiritual eyes open.And that just, it still gives me tingles because I think that is the narrative of my life.And so I thought, OK, is there something in here?So I investigated what that would look like, how to do that, and decided to take early retirement and to try and hand most of my time over to gospel type ministries.

So what was your first step in doing that?The first step was my first step.Well, firstly I’d do the figures.My first step was to check am I am I, is this absolute lunacy.So I’m I, I used to have quiet conversations with my financial planner and then I had a conversation with my wife and, and, and I also took my, I took my pastor to lunch and said, is this madness right?

And anyway, so that was so there was a, there was a bit of a trying to get my brains trust to, to give me some sort of security that there’s something that this is right.But and and yeah, so that was, but then it was a case of having conversations with what would that look like with different people at church and different and trying a few things on and having a few, you know, there was a few not crashing burns, but you try a few things out and your dad didn’t work and then you start.

But but but it was an iterative process of what would what would it look like for me to to give more of my time intentionally in one of the pastors said to me, I don’t want you to do a job that’s not helping me.What?What do?You mean by that?I want you to multiply yourself.

I mean, that’s red.I want you to, if you could get 5 people thinking like you do, how much better would that be?And how, what are the?And so that was actually challenging.So that then started me thinking maybe I didn’t think that retirement was an issue.Like I thought it was just my problem.And then you start to think, or maybe there’ll be some other people coming along the track a little bit later.

And maybe if I could.So that was part of the thought originally.It started as, oh, let’s do senior MTS.Sure.Yeah.And that still may be a thing yet, but that’s biting off too much.We needed a, a smaller target to start with.So that’s some of the stuff I was thinking about.

OK.We’re going to come back to what you actually do in terms of the ministry and how you’re doing that to multiply yourself in a moment.Just get me in the head of a retiree for a moment.So you know, on one hand, you’ve you’ve, you’ve, you’ve worked hard, you’ve got the retirement, you’ve got the superannuation payout.

Everything is everything you work for is sort of coming to fruition.You may be tired, you perhaps you’ve got grandkids on the side, but it sounds like it’s like I’ve got 1 long holiday.Is that really what it’s like to give me, put me in the head head mindset of a retiree?Some of it is a bit like that.

I mean, they’re they’re let me just talk to address the tiredness piece.Sure, right.Yeah.People who are tired are not tired.They’ve never been as well slept in their whole lives.People who are working, people who’ve got kids that they are tired, they are they are tired all the time.

But once you retire, you don’t.There’s no excuse for you to be tired.You can go to bed early and you can get, I actually choose to get up early, but you don’t have to.But I think there is a fatigue element too I think people are tired of.I think people are tired of the boredom of work because when you’ve done it for a long time, they know what Monday is going to look like and Sunday is a shocker because they know what Monday.

They’re tired of boredom.They’re tired of dancing to other people’s tunes, which aren’t particularly aligned perhaps to their own hearts needs and things like that.I think they’re tired of sometimes responsibility and, you know, owning stuff that maybe it isn’t their responsibility, but they’re made to feel responsible and all that sort of stuff.

And I think they’re tired of the discipline of the five days or sometimes 6 or whatever it is.And they just want, they just want a break.And that’s why I think this sense of I want a really long holiday is what they see.

They see that as freedom and anything would be better.And then you add a few things like travel and golf and, and, and all of a sudden it starts like, Oh, that’s what I want to do, right.And at the same time, those things are, they’re great.And that’s why holidays are good, because it is that that break.

And I encourage people to, if you’re going to, you know, you need to have a good break after you retire to mark, to mark the, the transition to recharge the batteries.But travel and golf and gardening are not going to be a sustainable long term venture.

You run out of countries, you run out of new things, you become.I’ve known some people who are not Christians but who we meet to on our travels.They’ve become they don’t travel, they’re travel critics.They they just, they compare 1 holiday to another and one play.It’s just another form of work.

And I know, I know bloke who was late in his ophthalmology career.He all he wanted to do was play guy.He act.This rang in my ears for years afterwards and he, he came back and gave us some lectures after he’d finished and he just loved golf and he played golf every day, right?

And he said to me, and he’d been retired for about 5 years, He said, you know, you know if you play golf every day, it’s a bit like work.That’s what I was just.Thinking about I’m going, he’s just got another job.It’s just so the good in office.And when you’ve got so it’s not so fatigue tired knowing what sort of tiredness you’re dealing with, how to deal with that, You know, So really I don’t think tiredness in the way we normally think about it like like young, young married tiredness.

Yeah, Yeah.So it sounds like what you’re saying there is that it’s it’s a tiredness of the routine.And actually this is a new chapter, and just the fact that it’s new actually can bring some refreshment that’s there.Exactly.And I think that’s the attitude that we should tell.That’s why retirement kind of the RE part of retirement doesn’t really work.

I mean, I have to you just embrace it because people talk about retirement, but the actual living of retirement doesn’t feel like you’ve retired from anything.It feels like you’re being released, right?To release, to do, to do things that now if you’ve got the financial capacity, you’re released to do things which are on your priority list, which raises big questions about motivations and.

That leads me back to our your question about so tell us about your ministry, what you’ve done to set that up for helping people transition from work to retirement.OK.So, so we’re done ringing for about we do, I try and pick a cohort of guys and that’s some of the hard work we try and who are heading towards retirement or in that kind of 50s age group or early 60s, sometimes in their 70s and identify who those people are via lots of different methods and using other ministries and church to identify them and then try and gather them together.

So they’ve got a band of brothers because blokes, blokes.I don’t know what it’s like for women, but for blokes you lose work and you lose a lot of social connectivity and a lot of friends.Because for for guys that’s, that’s been their, their social network has been the guys they’ve worked with.How big are these cohorts?

Oh, we have.So I have about 6 to 10 OK people within and I’ve got another, another fellows who helps me out with some of the admin and, and it’s nice to have another person in the room that’s aligned with what we’re trying to do.So we’ll have these guys and they often don’t know each other.

We’re in a biggest church, they don’t know each other and they are feeling pushing up against this.What am I going to do with the rest of my life, so to speak?And so the, the we just do A10 week week, once a week programme for two hours on a Thursday morning 8.

So we’ve kind of tried to be a bit strategic.Fridays don’t work because people go away for long weekends and you know that and that’s not so Thursday morning, get it in, get it done early.So it’s 8 till 10 on a Thursday morning.We gather in a in a lounge room and I try and the big broad brush thing I pitch to people is that you need some people who are going through what you’re going through you.

We need to get around the the word of God and see what God is challenging us to what he’s calling us to in that in some sense.And we need to pray and and we also.And so we’ve got community, we’ve got the word of God and we need a space to dig into some of the questions which take a little bit longer and some of which are to do with identity.

Where does work debriefing from work and and and my thinking behind all of this is comes from.I’m really trying to address their heart.Yeah, yeah.Their motivations and trying to align them with gospel priorities of making disciples, deep disciples and you know, in every increasing number and and what did the end with a view to getting them thinking about some sort of ministry, some sort of service for God in the back end of their life.

So how that I don’t try and be too prescriptive about that, but I think winning the heart is the first is the biggest challenge.And it also undoes some of the things that I think sometimes happen with people who just immediately might decide to step out of corporate world or some sort of highly skilled people are pretty good at what they do by the time they finish their career and whatever it is.

But to think that they can just immediately slot into church life, there’s, there’s, there’s something that sometimes doesn’t fit there because they might be immature spiritually or be babes in Christ in some senses thinking that I’ve got something for church.I’ve, I can fix this.

I can fix this organisation.I’ve got something to teach these guys.I’ve worked in corporate world.They need to know my skills and OK, there’s maybe some place for that.But before that I want people who, who my success is.I’ll do anything.What do you think would be useful for God’s Kingdom in this place?

You know, So now I’ve got them one to the vision and then, well, then you’ve got something to work with.And I don’t do that work, but I help other people who can take them from there.Sure, because that that is one thing I’ve noticed as we’ve worked our way through this transition series is those transitions in life are a great it’s a great point in life to stop and go.

Who am I?What’s going on?What have I sort of, you know, just adopted into my life without consciously being aware of it, but to stop and go hang on, does that actually belong here?Where where is is my heart really for Jesus?So that sounds like it’s a great ministry that you have there.

And I don’t think people think greatly into the time that they have ahead of them.These days.People are pretty healthy six if you retired at 65 and there’s people who are powering onto 80, yes, you know, that’s 15 years, 15 years.

What can you achieve in 15 years?So one of the things I challenge you guys is, is it would it be good to look back on the, the, you know, at some point in 75 or 8 and look back on 10 years post work and think, what is this?What have I achieved in this section of my life?And to feel proud in, in the best sense of the word, that you’ve been able to achieve something in God’s economy.

Let me just go back.And so during this 10 week series, I think we were talking before we got on there that it was basically based on the course of your life.It’s a modification of that.So what tell me about the kind of things that you’re covering that?So, so, so Tony Payne’s written a, a, a, a, a, a course and it comes with a DVD and you can get online and it’s, and basically it’s a booklet and you walk work through it and actually works through gospel realities.

You know, the and, and the sort of his overriding thing is what if God were to write the agenda of your life?What would that look like?And of course it, it, it, it looks at, you know, God’s world and the nature of synonym and why Jesus came and what that means to you personally.And then what would that role?What would that look like?

And how do you do this?And what is So it’s basically it’s basically the gospel in slow motion applied to people ending kind of at the Great Commission is that this is your Lord.He’s calling, then let’s let’s do this.And how then and then does have a few things on how to how to actually implement this.

And it’s written, I think for everybody in church, but we just adopted and, and I pull out a few pieces on identity and, and work and just spend a bit more time in that bit.A lot of people, the powerful section is the back end when people debrief from their work life and you realise the pains that they’ve been through and the thing that that does within the group when people share deeply about disappointments.

A lot of people have been had injustices done to them in their workplace or things like that.And suddenly we are all in, we find a very collaborative mood and then people are prepared to actually challenge their brothers around the room with other things and and just opens up a lot.

You know, once you takes about 6 or 8 weeks, I think for guys to feel safe and trust each other and we go away or the other thing is that it part of it is going away for a couple of days.We go away midweek, OK, we go up to Foster and, and you think you need to have a very stratified programme.

We do three or four of these little intensive topics, but really it’s getting the guys to talk and to walk and to coffee together.Yeah.And anyway, and just watch.It’s just so much fun to watch the guys watch what God has does from them one to another, you know.

So it’s a it’s a it’s a super fun.Every year is different.Now it’s a box of chocolates.You don’t know what group you’re getting.And anyway, so I look forward to it every year.Yeah.And and it never lands the same in any cohort.Sure.Now you’ve talked, I mean, I know you’ve mentioned guys a lot because it is a lot of guys retire.

Do you get a lot of women coming through the programme?None.I don’t.We don’t.Right.OK.But that’s not intentional.Yes, that is it.Is.Intentional.Well, it’s intentional because I didn’t think that I I thought I just thought of it from a bloke’s perspective, right?I didn’t know how to do that for women.

I didn’t know that it would work if we had mixed groups, right?And so I just had a very narrow focus that I’m going to do bloke’s retirement that is expanding a bit because just recently I was talking to some women who were saying that that there are there is another side to this, which I haven’t actually explored.And that is what’s happening at home for women.

And how does it actually work in the home, in the work, you know, in the in the relationship.So I haven’t actually thought about that, but I’m just staying with what I know at the moment.Sure.I know kind of no blokes.And it’s interesting that that that the blokes have no, no one’s questioned that they they want to be in a blokes group, it seems for this particular moment.

Yeah, OK.If you’re listening to this and you do have a a similar programme that includes women, make sure you email us.We’d love to talk with you.So I’ll make sure the emails at the end of the programme.So tell us about some of the ministries that you’ve seen the guys because you, you’ve had, you’ve been doing this for seven years, is that right?

And you’ve had, what, 48?Go through 48 guys have well graduated if you so yeah, in some sense.Just take a moment to listen to that.You know, if you’ve got 48 people who’ve gone through a programme like that keen to serve in your church, that would be amazing thing.What sort of things have they been doing?

Well, there’s been a lot, there’s been all over the place.I’ve had a lot of people have stepped into grace group leadership and previously haven’t done that because they’ve been either frightened or unconvinced that it’s, it’s valuable.And so, and then there there’s lots of a guy that’s worked his way through his own something like intended issues and things like to actually then decide now this church is really delivering Jesus to people and I can’t think of anything better than to invest heavily.

So he’s taken on our kind of our food, a food delivery programme, our whole catering, safety and kitchen development and staff.And that’s a massive programme.And so there’s that.I’ve got people who we, we’re working with Mt SS and looking at their curriculum.

I’ve got guys doing policy development, scripture school, some people, not necessarily in church doing lifeline and, and external ministry, so to speak, but still with the heart for, for gospel opportunities.And then there’s.

All the IT used to be packed in ranks all of the other things that people do with their grandchildren and those sorts of things.But largely it’s it’s every.I can’t think of almost any dimension in church car parking property.A lot of the blokes who some of the people say, look, I don’t care what I do as long as I don’t have to be inside or I don’t have to.

I don’t want I.Don’t want a disc?And thankfully we do have a, we do have property, we have grass to be mowed and, and, and those sorts of things.And of course, then there’s people with building skills and so that there’s almost no area of church that hasn’t been impacted.And most people will end up that I’ve worked with will do something.

I’d probably get about a 70%.Some have gone back into workforce, right, because that’s where they felt that, you know, so it’s not always a it’s not always doesn’t always land where you think it’s going to.And some others have, you know, have more picked and picked and and multi lots of different ministries.

One’s right doing our overseeing our care programme from sort of a back end administrative looking, making spreadsheets about who’s getting looked after.You know, like the list of widows, you know, on steroids.Because it’s OK.So that sounds like some some are using the the skills that they’ve learnt in the workplace and some just doing something completely different.

Exactly.Wow.OK.And and and some of them and doing things so completely different than one of the fellows said, I need to tell you up front, I don’t lead, I don’t do small groups, I don’t do people give me a spreadsheet, whatever.But anyway, but having having dumped down our programme and then doing a sort of a another kind of mini theological thing to try and stir theological thinking.

Now he runs runs a growth group and feels more confident in his evangelism and has been given.So he he gets a bit of a surprise as he looks at himself saying how did I end up here?Like this is nothing for someone who’s not.Going to lead.He’s doing a bit of leading there.Yeah, yeah, yeah.And and also he is the sort of person who won’t accept in the sense that you’re set in your path for good because he’s noticed changing himself.

And so therefore, he’s he challenges people to expect change.And yeah, so yeah, there’s a great variety of ministry.But the good one that’s good thing at the church that we’re going to is that there’s sort of nothing that’s there’s no programme that’s not going to have some sort of impact either in making people more mature in their Christian walk or bring new people in.

So you can sort of have, it’s nice to have confidence in, in the product, if you could call it that, that, that nothing is wasted as far as I’m concerned.And I’ve seen that and I, I advocate for that.So get involved somewhere, see what happens and and let the Lord lead you.

Yeah, yeah, I think what I I love there is I think I sometimes need to be rebuked on the the fact that the Spirit of God actually continues to change people.And I think I get in my head, and I think a lot of other people do, is that we think our the spirit changes people up to a certain age, which is usually 25 or something like that.

But actually, no, he’s still at work in people.And it’s great to see that you’ve seen that in people’s lives.Have you got a particular story of someone whose life life has been particularly impacted and changed by this ministry?Well, I think.I alluded to that fellow who who came out of a corporate world, many skills, real high flyer.

And and so he, he did the cause and he, I didn’t realise, but so he told me later that he felt quite challenged and rebuked and humbled because he, he realised that within him there were lots of pride issues and me issues, which I think we all suffer from.

But but he was identifying this and he had to do, he had to do some work for himself.And he started by actually coming back and and cooking for us on our on our when we went away for a couple of weeks and wanting to serve for that.But but that, you know, and then he decided that really he needed to.

And he, he felt the work had been done and he was now fit for service.So then he offered himself to do whatever he wanted to be done.I don’t care.But in the end, he ended up taking on quite a big ministry.And he, he’s the one that says to me with a smile on his face, you, you ruined my life.

Yeah.I had it all planned out what I was going to do.And he had this, you know, he offloaded his business anyway.And now he’s deeply embedded in church and, and loves it and sees the fruit of it and is a great advocate for church based sort of gospel ministry and sees and from and what he’s now championing is the importance of food in in that world to deliver quality and, and see he’s quite integrated in his understanding that everything can be used for the for the for Jesus Kingdom.

I love that moment.You’ve ruined my life by giving me purpose.OK, If if someone was listening to this, and it may be, it may be a fellow retiree, they’ve gone.Yeah.This is what I need to do.This is what I need to spend the rest of my life doing.What advice would you give to where would they start?

So you’re thinking to start a ministry like I’m doing or to to or to start to if you, if you orchard it doesn’t have a retirement miniature or catering for transition of people who’s, you know, the back end of their life, then maybe it’s you.Maybe it is you to to do that and you can start small.

But I would be talking to your ministry team to see how does this fit into their strategic plan.It might be a great idea, but it might not be the right time.They might have other needs and it might be you’re much better used in scriptures teaching or something.So if it’s the time in your church for this, and then I think then be the answer to your own problem and use the experiences that you’re going through your very self to maybe just do that with one other person or to other people or or a small cohort or every second year or just do do something.

But I do, well, I think it was, it’s well, I mean, I want to advertise Tonys, of course, but I mean, it was just, it’s just ideal for it’s already written and you know, and you can and it’s got great scope to tweak and insert extra slots or do things for, for the sorts of people that you want to do.

What’s this is this is the one thing like we’ve talked about a lot of different things, What’s the one thing that you want people to know about helping, like people transitioning from work to retirement?So the the thing they need to reflect on for themselves, the one thing that they need is to come to a realisation that what the world tells them is retirement is false.

They’re false prophets and golf and gardening and holidays are wonderful and you’ll do them, but they can’t bear the weight of a purpose of a purposeful life and you’ll be disappointed.You need to the one thing is to get a God given purpose that’s going to define the back end of your life, which is Jesus centric and it and has an eternal fruit.

And you probably won’t realise that until we get there, but that will be the the best thing you’ve ever done in your whole life.And you and I, I was just reading this morning that Abraham Moses was 80 before he got before he got it, his job.

That’s right, yeah.That was a great encouragement to me that maybe the best years.That’s why I recall best.Maybe the best years are still ahead of you.Don’t sell yourself short.Excellent, Phil, I have been so encouraged talking to you.I, I, I, I know you’re listening to this, but just watching Philip’s face light up every time he’s talking about this, You, you didn’t get to hear, you didn’t get to see that, but I got to see it.

So thank you so much for for joining us today.It’s a pleasure, been fun.OK, in the toolbox, we will have a link to the course of your life by Tony Payne.But I want to encourage you, actually what we really want in the toolbox is go and have a conversation.It may be if you’re a retiree or about to retire, go have a chat with your pastor.

If you’re a pastor, if you’re on a ministry team, have a look around at who is retiring and how you can help them transition well and to get those conversations going.And of course, if you’ve got a topic or you’ve got a similar ministry to this and you’d like us to to dig into that, make sure you email us at [email protected] dot AU.

I’m Pete Hughes, Chats soon.