G’day.I’m Scott Sanders.Welcome to The One Thing, a podcast designer give you one solid practical tip for Gospel centre ministry every week.Now The One Thing is brought to you by Reach Australia.We want to see thousands of healthy evangelistic multiplying churches and this podcast is part of that.

We want to see teams learn together, gather around some of the topics and some of the people and use this podcast as a, a place to learn and grow and interact with what leaders are doing not only here in Australia, but also around the world.And I’m, I’m really excited to have today’s guests on with us.

Daniel Imm.But for now, you’ve pressed play on the one thing that a cycle ship opportunity.Today’s podcast is brought to you by the Reach Australia Team development Programme.Running over two years, this intensive programme helps ministry leaders and ministry teams develop personally and professionally.

If you’re interested in the team development programme from Reach Australia, even if it’s early days for you, get in touch, head to the Reach Australia website and look under Healthy Churches.And now back to the podcast.As I read through it, it seemed very much like a, a reflection on your hope for a Beulah church member, your hope for someone who is, is, is asleep and outside the church and, and what it might look like for them to move in it.

It’s, I guess very different to say a, a simple church book which which seems generic and research based and has lots of principles.You, you’ve got principles, but it seems very much to be driven by you’re reflecting on Beulah and your, your current sort of position.Now what?Why did you write the?Book now that’s that’s such a astute observation because for me the the stuff of the book right was really wrestled out of leading through the pandemic, leading out of the pandemic and just realising that the pandemic very much.

I mean, I didn’t want to write a pandemic book, but realising that there is a significant part where just like 911 has forever changed the way that we go to airports and fly on planes and it still hasn’t changed right.It is still directly affected the way that you go on and off a plane and all the airport.

Everything is directly related to 911.The pandemic has that sense to it, right?But what I didn’t want to do is I didn’t want to write a post pandemic book.So instead, yes, like you said, there is definitely the stuff of Beulah that was the working ground out of it.

But what I did instead was I tried to go as far back as I could to a, a shaping, a paradigm shaping friend or a paradigm shaping event on the, on the church in the West that still affects us today.

And, and as I was doing that, and as I was trying to go back as far as I could, I, I landed in the 50s and the 60s to the church growth movement.And when I started reading not books written about the church growth movement in the 90s and 2000s and etcetera, when I started reading the primary books, the primary text in the 50s, in the 60s, in the 70s, and I started doing that literature review to see what I could dig out of all that.

That’s when it was this, Oh my goodness, we are still following all of these precepts in so many ways.And that’s dude, man, that’s 70 years ago and, and, and no, and no one talks about that, right.

But there was this sense where how are these ideas still prevailing?What are some of the assumptions we are still adhering to when we are literally in a world that is fundamentally different than it was in the 50s and. 60s, yeah.So again, this that was probably the most challenging part of the book for me.

Again, as you say, the the church growth movement was a long time ago.And you know, it’s been rightly critiqued in miss, you know, in the missiological frame, It’s been rightly critiqued in the theological frame.And in some you know, and even in the research, you know, frame in terms of just the Willow, you know, the Willow Creek study, you know.

Kind of.As well.So in some ways you’re.Yeah, I think what was unsettling was you were you really kind of put the finger on what are the assumptions that we’re still believing and that still kind of come through as an Australian reading the book.I guess that assumption that, you know, I guess of course church and of course you’re going to reach kind of people and they’re going to grow like it’s kind of never, it’s kind of never been in my, you know, my, my, my worldview in, in some sense at least since since being at college and, and since university days, you know, Australia’s been, you know, in some ways post Christian for a while now.

They’re the client definitely has increased through the 90s and 2000s and and a significant decline in in the rise of the nuns and everything else.What what’s interesting is I guess, I guess you reflecting like as I was talking to you before kind of preparing for this, you know, the, the implied reader of this is a is an American, you know, my sense as an Australian reading it.

I read it going yeah, of course, like of course, of course people aren’t going to come to church.You know, of course, of course they’re going to walk in your door.Of course you got to be active about about reaching them.You know, like again, I talk about the church that you want to be the church that people know they don’t go to in Australia.

The problem is people just don’t know about us.So, so this is where I’m like, the church growth movement is helpful because it helps us go, OK, how can you actually, you know, make people aware of your church?So, so for me, you know, the, the, the, the two kind of real hard pit hard bits that you got got me were just the spiritual disciplines and the complete lack of spiritual disciplines.

And I guess focus on the lead pastor and, and his life as a leader that the church growth movement probably didn’t have.And then the other one was just the, I guess there’s that assumption in it that, you know, kind of if you build it, people will come, which again, I’ve never gone operate on that assumption.

But in some ways, like I, I kind of want to go back to the biblical literature and, you know, we’ve just done Matthew’s gospel and, and reflected on kind of the parables in Matthew 13 of the Kingdom.Like the sense you do get in the in the New Testament, Jesus talks about church is that it will grow and it will grow from this small thing into this into this big thing.

But, you know, that’s not necessarily in every context, not never, not definitely not in your church, you know, potentially.Well, anyway, I, yeah, you could see there’s a lot of there’s a lot of reflecting with you on it.But yeah, for you where, where else were you challenged, you know, in your current leadership now, I guess.

Yeah, Yeah, Scott, those are great, great observations.And what’s fascinating about that is we’re all in different contexts, right.And and every context for me, I was predominantly thinking about church in the West, English speaking audience and church in the West is obviously beyond the US and Canada.

So, so when I think about it from that perspective, and even from having worked with you and having been in Australia together in your context three years for three years in a row a few years back, there is definitely this sense where, yeah, maybe, maybe for some, there’s not an assumption, of course.

Church, but if you were to hone in on that other assumption of of course, growth, I would say that predominantly in the West, that is a that is an assumption that most of us live by that I’m not going to put my money into an investment thinking it’s going to shrink, right?

I’m not going to have self directed investments or by mutual funds or whatnot and and expect it to decrease, right?If it decreases enough, we’re going to pull it out because we want growth when it comes to our kids.A healthy child grows, right?

We would want our church members to be growing.So there is underneath the surface deeply embedded in us this sense of just generically speaking, yeah, of course, growth.Of course healthy things grow.Of course, the Kingdom of God, right.It’s like a mustard seed.

And then it’s going to grow yeast and, you know, in leaven in a bread and it’s going to grow.The the.The problem with that, though, is underneath the surface.This one statement from one of the church growth fathers, it I, I feel like we’re living according to it.

And there’s this shame or this guilt that rises up within us when we’re not growing because of this statement.OK, he said that a shrinking church is a sinning church.No one, no one would say that today.

I mean, you get you get cancelled if you said that today sort of thing.But, but back in the 50s, sixties, 70s, like one of the fathers of this entire movement said a shrinking church is a sinning church.And when you just think about it from that perspective and you’re preaching week in, week out, you’re leading locally.

And this week you have 50 people, right?And, and the next week you got 75 people.And then the next week, you know, you’re, you’re, you’re at 80 people.I mean, as a pastor, you’re on the moon, right?You’re like, wow, not only did people come back, but they brought their friends.

Like, this is working.Like we are reaching the lost.And like, this is this is of course, yeah.You don’t want to launch with 150 people or 100 people and then the next week only have two, right?Like, right.There’s this sense where we want things to grow, but then on, on, on the other side, let’s say you, you are you’re at 50 people this week and then next week here at 45.

And then the next week you’re at 40.And then the week after that, you’re at 35 and you’re at 30.How many pastors have felt this weight of guilt and shame, as if there’s something they’re doing wrong?And, and, and we want to push back against our identity being caught up in the size of our church.

Or the of course.Of course.And and so, yeah, like I was, I was just, I quoted a few, like I underlined a number of bits in the book where, you know, where you do quote Mcgavran and and others.But you obviously didn’t put, you know, you didn’t put that quote because I was, I was sort of, I was thinking you go to a quote that I underlined and marked and, you know, you know, corner of the book of my page.

But it wasn’t, it wasn’t the same quote.I, I guess the, the, the thing for me, the thing that, that I want to keep challenging myself with and challenging pastors and churches that we’re working with across our network is it’s just having that, having that burnt.Like, where’s the burden line?Not, not in, in you, but in, in the loss that are out there.

You know, like you think of Edmonton no doubt regularly the 980,000 people, most of them probably don’t know Jesus and, and, and, and that ought to be the kind of, you know, the well that ought to be part of the, the desire that sort of captures you up in kind of doing, doing everything and asking the questions even about your own leadership and asking questions about your church and, you know, wanting to change the colour of the carpet.

And you know, think think of things that going to help people reach people.But but even aside from that as well, the glory that comes with God as as as many of those lost people turn to Jesus start.Praising God with their.Lips, you know, become demonstrations of God’s mercy and his love and his compassion, his goodness.

I guess having that right motivation.I guess I, I don’t want, as I read it, I kind of heard it.There’s a critique here.You know, you push it, you’re pushing this way, But at the same time, I’m, I’m, I also want to go where so rightly, where is, where is my heart in that conversation.Hopefully it’s the glory of God and it’s the concern and compassion for the lost.

You know, I wanna, I wanna, um, you know, like wait for it, wait for the city and wait for my region, wait for my, wait for my suburb, you know, which has many lost people in it.Yeah, I, I love that.I love that, Scott, because for me, the reason I started off with essentially a critique on the church growth movement, it wasn’t throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

I mean, I graduated from Fuller, which is the hub of the church and and I’m in a very large church, so which which grew as a result of any of these paradigms and principles.So, so I’m not throwing all of it out, right.But I started there.Here’s why I started there.It’s because it’s because one thing the church growth movement and subsequently many pastors do today is we believe it’s our responsibility to create interest in God, right.

And that was really what I’m get what I was getting at and what I get into chapter 2 and then the rest of the book that we for some reason think that we need to attract people to God, create interest in God and in the spiritual things and and and into yes, you know that there is more to life than this than let me show you how or let me show you how your life is meaningless without Christ and and we believe it’s our responsibility.

But but here’s the thing.God’s always been better at that than we’ve than, than, than we, we ever have, no matter how much money we’ve spent toward marketing or whatever our tactics, he’s always been better.And, and I’ll, and I’ll give you the example that I always share at Beulah and that I just, this is kind of my example.

I love it’s Acts Chapter 9.And what I love about Acts Chapter 9 is oftentimes people see that story as a story about Saul on the road to Damascus, his conversion and let’s go right?We we see it primarily through that lens of, OK, that was his conversion story.

But what I love about Acts Chapter 9 is that there are three major characters.And if you don’t miss this fact, and if you don’t actually miss the difference of how Jesus talked to Saul versus how we talk to Ananias and how Saul responded versus how Ananias responded, I believe we’re actually missing a powerful parable for us today, right?

So Jesus shoulder taps Saul, right?He blinded by light, however you want to explain it right?Shoulder tap.Can you, can you just explain that to Australian audience?Yeah, it’s like, hey, hey, let me get your attention, OK?I’m gonna blind you with light, push you off the horse, all this.

OK, whatever, right?But essentially Jesus meets Saul and Saul says, Who are you, Lord?OK, who are you, Lord?He didn’t say Who are you, Sir?So somehow he discerns that this is the voice.

Of God, but he’s.But, but it’s, but I mean, Saul seemed to be very spiritual.He seemed to be very learned.He seemed to be like he was, he was a religious leader.So you would think he would know and be able to discern God’s voice and and and he did, didn’t he?

But there’s something off about it, like he didn’t quite recognise is this God?Is it so?So is this who are you Lord response?But then Jesus goes to Ananias, right?He does the same sort of thing.I mean, not with flashing light, but he shoulder taps and an eyes as well.

And Anna Nyce says, here I am, Lord, and I love that difference.Right?Because all we know about Anna and Ice is that he was a disciple who lived in Damascus.And he didn’t leave Damascus when he heard that persecution was coming.

Hmm.He was a disciple that chose to stay.He chose to be rooted.He chose to not be afraid of his life.And or, or maybe he was afraid, but not so much so that he’s going to leave the town like he he was rooted.

This is my parish.These are my people.I am here.This is who I am and I’m gonna stay here.And as a result, Anne and Iris is the first Christian brother to welcome Saul into the family.Presumably he baptises Saul as well.

Hmm.And we never hear about Ananias again.Like there’s there’s three and for and for all the for everyone thinking is this Ananias and Sapphira like you talk about that and then I or are you talking about like the high priest and an ice later on?And actually there are three and ices and Acts and this particular Ann and ice who is the disciple in Damascus appears twice here in Acts 9 and one time later when Saul is recounting the entire conversion experience.

But really, we don’t know much about Ananias.And here’s the parable of that.And here’s where, why, why I love talking about this and why.And, and my challenge to all of your listeners here is what would it look like if we let Jesus be Jesus, right?

We let the Holy Spirit do what the Holy Spirit can do best and shoulder tapping people and meeting people in, in, in creating interest in people and waking people up spiritually and bringing them to a point where it’s like, hey, you can’t live this way anymore, right?

What if we actually created, you know, organised our ministries and our time and our attitudes and our efforts toward yes, the Holy Spirit can do that way better than we ever could.And instead we became here I am Lord sort of disciples like Ananias.

And our responsibility as pastors was to disciple the people in our churches to be here.I am Lord sort of disciples like Anna and Ice who were able to discern the voice of God, right?

Because and then I knew it was Jesus, disciples who were first and foremost before even hearing about what God wants us to do.No, here I am, Lord.Everyday here I am Lord, I’m gonna live a life of surrender to you and people who are rooted in our places.

And it was like, yes, I am Daniel of Edmonton, right?Like this is my place.I’m here.Yeah.I love travelling.I love, I love Australia, right?I miss you.I miss you.Like, it’s just, there’s so much of Australia that I want to bring my family too.But but this is home, right?

This is where God’s called me.This is where I’m rooted.What if we actually organise our ministries around that and less around the task of attracting and the task of creating interests?And that was the sense of how the quadrant came about and everything else in the book.

Yeah, well, you like, I didn’t want to kind of stop you there.I just wanted to hear hear how it is that you, you fire up and, and convict your people to be living, living, living different life, living, living gospel shaped lives, but also having that, that heart, that desire to sort of take the gospel out as well.

And and, and again, real, real challenge to us as pastoral leaders too be, you know, be seeing that as our our job to be discipling people to to be taking the gospel out.Now, I like this is too short a podcast to just keep chatting, chatting and talking, unfortunately, But I do want to kind of maybe this is your strategy as a book, you know, as a book writer, you don’t want to kind of give away all the secrets and then people can just listen to the podcast, not buy the book.

No.So maybe, maybe.Give it all away.No.Yeah, maybe it’s just.Not at all.But there was a little, there was, there was a little glimpse of Todd Adkins in the in the quadrant that you talked about.And, and in some ways, I think what, what you’ve tried, what you’re encouraging us to do is to, is to think about these, these four different people, the, the sleeper.

So that’s the the uninterested non Christian, the seeker, the interested non Christian, the consumer, the uninterested Christian in your church and then the disciple, the interested and, and and follower of Jesus to think about each of these groups.What I like about your book is as well as like I’d be, yes, agreeing with you on all these things as as well as the powerful word of God.

You have a place in every chapter to sort of think about the preaching and how you as a lead pastor need to preach.And in some ways I feel like your audience is, is, is a church team in America, but you’re also speaking to the, to the church leader and saying, Hey, how, how does this impact and shape your, your, your preaching?

You know, we, we often talk about, you know, preaching the two audiences, but preaching to that second audience, that sleeper, that seeker, so that you’re teaching your disciple and consumer how it is they’re going to take the gospel.I so people can buy the book if they want to check out the quadrant.You then unpack that, which is, which is great.

I just want to talk about your, your pathway cause because one of the interesting things I found about it, and I was talking to one of my, one of my team members as well today, this morning about it was that you start where you have kind of three kind of gears in the, you know, in, in the pathway.And as someone moves into church life, the ongoing steps, the first steps and the next steps.

And as I kind of read, I thought, oh, you’ve ordered it kind of around the wrong way.You know, I had to kind of read reread the chapter in.Nature my editor, my editor too, is like change the order.I was like are.You sure?Are you sure about?That change order.Yeah, yeah.It’s like, so it’s good, but you start with ongoing steps, which is here’s how I want to keep discipling all my people.

Then you talk about the person that comes, you know, for the first time, the first steps into church life and then the next steps.So again, in some ways it’s not, it’s not research based, it’s not simple church, it’s not a not a generic pathway.

It it’s what you do at Beulah.And again, can I encourage people to, you know, buy the book just for that reason to go, Oh yeah, look, I’m not going to do it that way or Oh, that’s interesting.I found I found that quite helpful, but one of the the one of the key things I found helpful in the book is just the the the questions that each of the chapter they’re they’re useful just for you to self reflect as a leader.

But also I’m, I’m kind of thinking you can pull these out with the team and go, OK, how how are we going?So one, well, cup, cup, let’s just quickly go through the steps.So people got enough to sort of wet their appetite.So when you talk about ongoing steps, you talk about four things.

Yeah.What are the four things you’re talking about?Yeah.So with the ongoing steps, so the language we use at Beulah is gathering, growing, giving and going together.OK, so that’s the the language we’re using about, hey, these are things that you never grow out of.

These are things that disciples do.It’s not necessarily what, you know, who we are, but there’s a sense of, yeah, what is, what is the, what are the practises of a growing disciple?And there is this aspect of gathering, growing, giving and going now.

Now what research backs that up is the research from the discipleship stuff with Lifeway and, you know, all the regression analysis, all that stuff that I unpacked in those silver bullets.But, but what I essentially was trying to do was this, that chapter specifically was a, hey, people are still reading no silver bullets.

People are still asking about the research.They’re still trying to figure this out.What is a way to make it more palatable to the church family knowing that, hey, here are practises that we know through the research are going to contribute to spiritual growth.So that’s the idea of the ongoing steps, right?

The idea of the first steps was this idea of, Hey, you’re new to your church, you’re new to Jesus.What’s the pathway for what’s a very clear pathway?And, and, and I, I articulate, I mean, I very intentionally mean very clear pathway because we are so decision fatigued as a, as a, as a society.

There’s a sense of no, I just wanna know, like I’m new to your church.What do, what do I do right or, or I’m new to Jesus, what do I do?Just tell them what to do.I mean, think through it.Make you have a robust plan for us to use alpha when you’re new to Jesus.And it’s just a very compelling and straightforward sort of way of introducing people to Jesus.

And then?Yeah, what I, what I found helpful in that was the idea that you had of actions.Think about the actions, think about the biases that you have and then think about the horses.Yeah, so I love how you just the lens of that just three kind of, you know, ways of kind of thinking about think about that that member moment is what we call it as someone moves into church life.

Now I wanna talk then just about the next steps.So you use again another again beautiful alliteration, discover, deepen and and deploy.That’s what it then looks like to have someone, I guess, integrate into the life of Beulah.

Yeah, yeah.And and that’s that piece of hey in your and, and, and I love, I love analogies, right.So in this idea of, OK, you are going in and through, in and out, the, the, the normal ebbs and flows of life.

Isn’t it good to occasionally get away and go, go on a retreat, go on a vacation, go to the mountains, go to the beach?Yeah.This isn’t something you do every single day, but it’s good.It’s good, right?It’s good to occasionally have a bonfire with friends and to have a cookout.And, and there are these pieces where, yeah, I’m going to go to this conference, right?

I’m going to, I’m going to go to this, this Reach Australia conference or I’m going to go to that one.And, and it’s, you don’t live there, right?But but there’s these moments and, and within the life of a church there that’s what the role of the next steps are, right?If if you’re calling everyone to gather, grow, give and go together in an ongoing basis, what are those moments?

Those discover deep in or deploy moments that’ll bring about and inject new life into the life of your church family and into the life of a disciple That will be that that’ll get people, shake them out of their consumerism, shake them out of their status quo, get them to perhaps they’re really good at gathering and growing, but they don’t know how to give and go and, and talking about working out.

They love working out their upper body, but they never work out their core, right.What, what’s, what’s, what’s the result of that going to be right?Or what’s the result of never working out your legs, but all you do is your biceps.Like that is gonna create injury.Like it’s not just gonna create imbalance, it’s gonna create injury in your life.

And so in the same way, there’s a sense of, yeah, how do we inject new life and, and, and catalyse growth in our church family?And that’s that role of the next steps.You don’t live in the next steps.That’s where you, if you live in the next steps, you’re creating and cultivating a culture of consumerism because it’s always but the next thing and the next event done for you.

So it’s that.And that’s why that’s why I had to start with the ongoing steps because you gotta learn how to feed yourself and you have to teach and and equip your church family to know how to feed themselves.Great.Well, I’m holding the book up.If you listen to this on the podcast, it’s called the discipleship opportunity.

Can I encourage you to to grab it read ready with your team.As I said, always good to to be challenged by different, you know, different ways of thinking.And again, like no silver bullets.The one thing I took out of like there’s always one, there’s always one thing in in Daniel’s books, you know, he’s had six things and he had 25 chapters in, you know, planning missional churches.

But the, the one thing I got silver bullets was the affinity groups.The one thing I’ve got out of this book is, you know, is, is thinking about those ongoing steps at the start of the pathway and, and, and really helping me think about how, how I guess the end point of, of someone in my in my church family.

Before that.Yeah.Now I’m not going to give the one thing that’s not how this podcast works.So, so Daniel, what’s the one thing about the established opportunity that you wanna share?Yeah, for too long we have been giving too much power and control to the consumers in our church.

And it’s natural that we do this because consumer, the way our consumeristic society works, is the consumer is king.And we know that because if you go to a restaurant and you hate it, what do you do?

You want to make them feel it through a bad review.And that restaurant doesn’t want you to have a bat.They don’t want a bad review like they’re it’s such a part of our culture today and for too long and, and, and today, yeah, lots of people are making doing Google reviews and all that stuff for your church and good or bad and all the way around.

But as church leaders, we’ve given too much voice and authority and power to the consumers.What would it look like instead to challenge them?What would it look like instead to focus your ministry not on the uninterested, but on the interested, To be a disciple making movement as Jesus calls us to and, and, and one of the things that prevents us from doing that is we’re giving too much voice, authority and power to the consumers.

So challenge them.Daniel, it’s been great having you on.The one thing that you desire in this book is to see stronger, healthier and churches that are on mission.That’s exactly what we want to see it reach Australia.So it’s been good having on the podcast today.

Thank you so much, Scott.Now I just want to go to the toolbox very, very quickly.So just a few things.I’ll put a link in the show notes to the discipleship opportunity.Also put a link to No Silver Bullets as well.And if you are thinking about planning, which you should be thinking about planning, then you definitely want to grab Daniel’s other book with Ed’s.

Got a little little part to play in that book.We’re planting, planting missional planning missional churches in the 21st century.I really good resource just to kind of dip into as you think about various things.He now, of course, you get all those books from the wandering bookseller.The other two, well, the other two resources we’re gonna put in there is just a, a simple pathway tool that, that we utilise as part of our church consults and as part of our development programme.

And just a, a video that just to kind of explains how to use that as well.Pathway thinking is, is, is, is one way of kind of breaking down church life.The other way that we encourage is, is, is thinking about outcomes.So what is it that you actually want to see in the life of, of the believer?In some ways, those ongoing steps?

Well, if you’ve enjoyed this podcast, can I encourage you to share it with your team?Podcasts are always better listen to with others and learning from others.So can I encourage you to do that?But great having Daniel in with us.Looking forward to chatting soon.