Now.Leading teams is a really important part of ministry.Healthy churches need healthy teams now.Regalia has been a leader of a number of ministry teams, some he has built himself.Now he leads A-Team he’s inherited as lead pastor at Fellowship Dubai Ray, it is so good to have you back on the one thing.

Good to be here, Jo.You’re now living in Dubai.What’s something you miss about Australia?Don’t say Vegemite.And apart from the grandkids and the kids, I would say green.I love green and I love waves at oceans that want to throw me back out because the water is so flat.

It drives me nuts.So I have to do paddle boarding or something because there’s no waves there.And when there are waves, but that I mean like a foot high, they’ll close the beaches sometimes.But no.Well, I, I think sometimes it’s to let the board riders finally have their moment in the sun.

But it it’s, we love it there.Awesome.Well, we’re looking forward to hearing from you today on The One Thing.But for now, you’ve pressed play on another episode of The One Thing leading teams you’ve inherited.Today’s podcast is brought to you by Expedia.

Are you ready to explore help with your church bookkeeping and payroll?Contact the friendly specialist at XDR.That’s EX dia.com dot AU.And now back to the podcast.Well, right.

As I mentioned, you’ve inherited A-Team at Fellowship Dubai and you’ve built A-Team when you were the senior minister at MBM.Can you talk to us about some of the differences between building a team versus inheriting a team?Well, building a team, I did it over 32 years, so I got to make lots of mistakes over a long period of time.

Probably mistakes I didn’t realise that.I mean, I tell you what, the one area I was so thankful for never with respect to godliness.So, you know, if you make the fruit of the Spirit a non-negotiable, it’s amazing you, you do get away with a lot, so to speak.

And so I’m really thankful that that was a core value from the very beginning, you know, people who were tried and tested.And so we, we, we wanted to value fruit of the Spirit over gifts of the Spirit.And so that that allowed those mistakes that happen.I mean, when you, when you restructure and, and, or you realise the person’s not in the right role and all that, that, that, that kind of worked well because I think you were dealing with people who are godly and able to adjust to some change and, and they themselves didn’t put themselves at the centre of the story.

So that’s so that’s, I think that that’s, that’s been one thing.I haven’t made a mistake.And I think, but with regards to growing it, yeah, it, it took me a long time to think through structure.I’m a like, I, I think relationally, not structurally.

And so these things came to me quite late in my ministry, like 10-15 years later.And it kind of evolved from having a specialised ministry model to then taking on where we took on the purpose model in 2010.Cause we couldn’t cope with the growth that was happening with the new building that had arisen mid people were falling through the cracks.

Staff, we, we, we weren’t working the, the staff weren’t in the right places with the clear goal to achieve the purposes that God would have for the church.So working all that out took some time, but with the key was right mentoring for me personally and just having a really good set of mentors that helped me in that, as well as the kind of wisdom that reach gave or pre reach, if I put it that way, all the people who make reach reach kind of were ministering to me and the staff.

And and so just journeying through organisational structures, you know how to cut the cake of ministry.You can cut in different ways by getting the right healthy ecosystem staffing to having a clear structure, staffing to that structure.What I used to do is like, they’d be the next fad that came from the States and you, I think we need to employ someone for that.

And it was always reactive rather than thinking, no, this is what, what kind of church do we want to present to Jesus on the last day?What are those things that mark a healthy church and then create portfolios or purposes around that and then staff them?

Now that was a slow evolution at MBM, but one that I came to a resolution on with with much greater clarity by the end.And so it was lovely.By the time I left, I know Danny felt like we had the right structure, the right role, subscriptions, organisational accountability was clear.

I had the right staff and the right role.So like, I really felt like, wow, it’s like a moment we’re kind of confirmed it was it was OK to leave.Yeah.Yeah, nice.And you touched on earlier what you look for in a team member and you mentioned fruit of the Spirit, godliness as you were building the team at MBM.

Anything else you were looking?For OK, there’s kind of like it’s those those seas, aren’t they?But I think I worked out about 8 seas.We don’t have the time to go through them all, but obviously character conviction, you know, are they conduits to leadership?Do they raise up teams?

That’s it.That was a key one.Chemistry.I mean, you know, there are really, there are outstanding leaders here at Reach I could probably not work for and I respect them, but I just think there’s a, you got to understand the humanity of the, of the, of the thing.And so chemistry wise, probably I wouldn’t fit their church and they probably wouldn’t fit my church.

So, yeah, working out and not apologising for that, you know, what’s that?Chemistry at convictions, Obviously, no, not just in terms of theological, but also in terms of philosophy of ministry.So that it’s amazing how a little difference at point A ends up being a big difference at point E Yeah.

And so just trying to work out that you’re generally on the same page.And then someone who’s, you know, like I’m a, I’m a grey thinker.I I’m not a black and white thinker that has its weaknesses.You’re black and white thinker that has its its strengths and weaknesses, but knowing who you are and able to sort of have enough self awareness and EQ to know that that my perception of the world isn’t infallible.

Even my theological world isn’t infallible and I need others to speak into it.And that there’s no well rounded leader.There’s just a well rounded team and I don’t have to have all the answers.And a good leader doesn’t have to have all the answers.What he needs to do is raise up leaders and allow them to be the best they can be as we seek to grow the gospel and and create healthy churches that we present to Jesus on the last day.

Yeah.So we’ve talked a little bit about building a tape at MBM, moving to Dubai.You’ve inherited a team that already existed and that’s that’s usually what happens for a senior pastor.When you inherited that team, what helped your team?

What helped you as a leader?What kind of things were you thinking through as you took on leadership of that team?Well, I, I knew I was going cross culturally, so I was entering into another world.And by cross cultural, I mean, Oh my goodness, you know, 120 different nations represented in the church and 200 in the country.

You, you know, the, the three colour world view, you know, of cultures, you know, there’s innocent guilt, which is western, There’s shame, honour and power fear.And I, because I’m Maltese, my shame, honour and my innocent guilt is probably about the same perspective.

That’s why I probably feel I’ve always felt slightly odd in Sydney, in Sydney evangelical churches, because it’s a higher value for me to shame on an element.But you’re working with people who actually drenched in each of those cultures and boy, you can bud up really hard.

So we have training every month on this issue.And you know what, it’s actually been helpful even reading the Bible because the Bible has a lot of shame on a power fear issues going on there.And it even, you even see the way in which the cross solves not just guilt, but shame and fear as well.

So it gives you kind of a framework to open up.But as it pertains to staffing, we’re we’re forever coming back to that issue and seeing and not seeing that one is right ones wrong.I think that’s the mistake.It it’s just that this is the fullness of humanity and recognising if we’re going to love and work together, we need to understand that as I relate to you, I need to relate to you on your terms.

Bit like the disc profiles, they’re just tools really to stop us from judging each other.And so I, you know, you start to kind of read things not just through your own lens, but other lenses while you’re still holding on to the word of God, but doing it in community, yeah.Can I ask any thoughts on building alignment around vision?

So they’ve had a previous leader.Yeah.I’m thinking of the senior pastor who might have a more kind of culturally homogeneous team.Yeah.But they’re inheriting a team that have been led by someone else, might have had a slightly different vision for the church.Any thoughts on aligning the team around?

Them well, partly you got honour the past and so I’m so thankful for the you know, for for those who’ve gone before me, Pastor Jim, who was before me, who planted the church.Wow.I mean, big open arms that have embraced just position our church in a way that’s just been very inclusive.

So I’ve gotta honour what’s gone before with whatever changes you.In fact, you honour you, you honour the past.But actually, you know, making changes for the future.Cause you know, nothing worse than trying to play like, you know, with what did they say playing, battling, using last year’s strategy for this year’s war.

You know it, you constantly got to keep thinking what’s, what’s the right thing now.But really, I, I’ve kind of jumped around a bit being mindful that I’ve entered into a situation where there’s history where there’s different cultures and, and I don’t know Dubai nor the UA nor the Middle East.

So I have to calm as a very, very quick learner and a, and a good listener.So I’m not kind of imposing stuff early on.I’m, I’m just trying to listen.I mean, it was a big stuff anyway for me, but whether it’s a big star for a little staff, you’re, you’re doing, you’re looking back, but at the same time with A view to looking forward to always grow because you know, everyone wants to go forward and, and be the church Jesus wants us to be.

So, so that’s then about managing change, isn’t it?And that’s about listening.It’s about listening to what’s, what are the resistance to change and then trying to speak to that in a way that they can understand.And then, and then, you know, when you’re in a conflict situation with someone, it’s, it’s trying to think what, what is the other person trying to guard?

Because chances are you want to guard that too.So trying to affirm that as you engage in the discussion about the change you’d like to make.But I just had, there was, I was on so much of learning and they needed to learn to trust me in terms of the new staff.And, and I was, you know, it’s, it’s a much broader staff theologically.

So that was it.You know, I come from a tight tribe in Sydney, Anglicans and Reformed evangelical, and not everyone fits that box in on staff.And so really appreciating the fact that there are that, that I have brothers and sisters who really love Jesus, who are very godly, have a missional heart, but we don’t agree on every doctrinal issue and, and well, in the Providence of God, that’s who’s there.

So that’s who we’re working with and, and and then going forward on that basis, yeah.Can you give us some examples, some stories, things that have happened in your team that would be helpful?I’ll tell you the, the there’s, there’s a first staff retreat.

So when I arrived, I mean, the shake had died.So there was that change.We had to adjust to that because it, it, it impacts everything.And then we went on our staff retreat.Like I was only there for a couple of weeks.And, and I remember the first day I spoke on X13, the church planting model that we see in Antioch.

And I, I must be about four minutes into the talk, maybe 10 minutes now, 10 minutes into the talk.And I’m talking about, you know, signs and wonders tied to four eras in the Bible and, and, and, and you know, the, with the Exodus, Elijah, Elijah, the gospels, Jesus ministry and the apostles.

And I’m not a cessationist, but I’m no, I don’t think we’re in the.And when I said that, one of the, one of the guys came and said, now, Ray, when you say that it, it sounds like there’s no expectation that God’s gonna answer their prayer.So I said to this particular pass, I said, Brian, why don’t you come up and actually and I got him up to actually talk further about it and just trying to create a safe culture where where where they could push back on me.

And that was OK.Yeah.And and so that that people were some people were really shocked by that, that I actually did that.But I was that was like I was grabbing the moment as they came to know.I just wanted them to feel safe.Then the second day.

So that was the first one.The second day I preacher 1 Queens 13 on love because without love we’re nothing one and we’re about 7 minutes into the talk and you know, by the way, we were on a retreat in a in a roller coaster place, you know, So yeah, so we we we’ve been roller coasting all that afternoon, the day.

Before classic Dubai, yeah.Yeah, and so I’m sure people were tired as well it anyway, so I’m I’m opening the word and I’m preaching about 7 minutes in I noticed quite a few people on their phones.Now of course, they could have been looking at their Bibles on their.Phones.We’d hoped that.

Well, I didn’t and I got a I was a little bit annoyed and I just sort of said something that probably annoyed perspective.And anyway, and I’m preaching 1 green needs 13, which begins Love is patient.Yeah.So the mode in the medium were kind of conflicting.

Anyway, after about 10 minutes I said, guys, I’ve got to stop.I feel like such a hypocrite.I’m so sorry.I you could have been reading the Bible.And even if you’re word, that’s not the way for me to speak to you.And it’s amazing that those two episodes are often remembered in terms of me just kind of recognising I, I shouldn’t have done that and apologise.

And the other one where I just kind of gave a brother an opportunity to, to push back a little bit.Yeah.And he did it respectfully.And we have a lovely relationship.So, you know, I think it’s those little moments, they’re discipleship moments where you’re really trying to always build.It’s always the baseline.

Many staff, if you get trust happening, then you can have your robust theological conversations, but if you don’t have that trust foundation, you know, you’re just pushing uphill and you misread everything and you get defensive and pull back and and so we got it was lovely to see when we had the, the, the, the fellowship didn’t have role descriptions.

Its structure needed clarifying people.Not everyone was clearly reporting to everyone.So we knew objectively from assessments that one of the councillor did, that’s one of the stress points was lack of clarity, role ambiguity.So that was an easy thing to fix up.

So we started introducing that early and, and my wife Sandy, who’s better at this than I am, I actually played a, a lovely part in that.And so that was people have actually found that helpful having their roles to find and knowing what their responsibility is and isn’t well at the same time celebrating.

And that’s what they’re really good at.You know, we have something good happens.We’re all there on staff meeting, celebrating, singing, praising God, praying with each other, introduced prayer in our staff meetings and triplets like I had an IBM.So that we randomly kind of pick up groups of three all the time, whenever the same three.

So that in the end, people are always working, not falling, not falling into silos, but meeting together, talking about and praying about celebrations and challenges either either in their personal life or in their ministry.And that, that all those little things have proven to be very helpful.Yeah.

As you’re building a team, adding more and more staff or high level volunteers to your team, what proportion of your time as a senior pastor is focused on building that team, investing in them versus ministry to the wider congregation?How do you think about that?

I remember when I first put on my first couple of staff members, so this is at the level of staff and you know, I told them what to do.They kept coming to me wanting this and wanting that.It was driving me nuts.

You know, I, I, I thought, I, I, I’ve employed you so you can do ministry.Why do you keep coming back?You know, I I’ve got to do work.You’re getting in the way of my work.And then I realise, Ah, you are my work.And that was the paradigm shift that that investing in them is how I love the church.

So as the church could bigger, I spent more and more time with the staff, you know, and so, you know, right, Irvine blessed that man.He, you know, he, he clarified for me what my role description was, or I basically stole his framework, which is better?You know, you cast the vision resource, the vision, work with the governance of the vision and then staff the vision and that staffing of the vision.

That takes a lot of my time.And the bigger the church, the more and more it takes.So the bulk of my time is absolute.I mean, I’ve got a big staff look like, right, it’s 5050 people.So I, I’m, I’m unusual.I’ve inherited it.I, you know, I always say had nothing to do with it.I but, but you know, an MBM, it was just me and then it was me and, and MTS and then it just grew and, and the bigger the staff grew and then move staff aside, just working with high level volunteers, you know, as you think about the leadership pipeline, we’re forever.

That’s why that conduit to leadership is is a high value for us when we employ someone because you can be highly skilled.If you can’t multiply, it’s going to begin and end with you and the church will not grow and you are functioning holding him back and not allowing the church to be unleashed and allowing the people to be unleashed.

So just the bulk of my energy now is is focused in and you kind of I know people often do, but it’s right.Jesus he said an extraordinary amount of time with the three, the 12 and the 72 and it’s kind of there and Paul models exactly the same thing with these coworkers.So I would you know, it kind of it.

It’s proportionate to how much time happy, partly how much the the size of the church, but but you’re forever moving to work with leaders because that’s how you’re going to maximise your impact for the gospel.That’s how you end up.This is the irony because I’m a very relational person, but this is how you end up loving more people by doing less direct ministry and working through.

And there’s always a grief in that because let’s face it, when I came into ministry, I wanted to do the one to once.I love doing it.I love doing Bible study one to one, you know, like, and I realise, well, that’s good, but I’m gonna have a limited span of impact.But if the more we equip in every level of ministry and the more we unleash, the more people are blessed because regular is not the centre of this church.

Jesus is.And that’s the problem.Pastors keep putting themselves at the centre of the story and Jesus at the centre of the story and the centre of our church.Amen.So helpful hearing this, really helpful for pastors as they lead their teams.

Ray, we’re on the one thing.So what’s the one thing you want people to know about inheriting or building a team?I think you know one thing, You’re killing me.I know, I know one can’t she sentence.Trust, building trust upon which you build everything else.

And and yeah, you wanted one thing.I mean, it’s killing me, but I’m holding back from 50 other things that I want to say so that that’s what pops into my mind right now.And I do want to say this.There was a guy in my old church, a senior pastor who was a locum who we kept on and he watched over the traditional Anglican service in the MBM.

And he, his first wife died and he remarried.And he said, Ray, I had the rare privilege of being in love with two women.And I’ve since thought, you know, I have the had the rare privilege of being in love with two churches, MBM and Fellowship.Hmm.

Yeah, that’s a beautiful way to put it.All right, well, in the toolbox today, we’ve got two episodes, one on joining A-Team, so you can have a listen to that.And also, we’ve been talking about building trust in a team, and we’re gonna pop a link to an episode with Brett Harris talking about that very same thing.

Now, if you’ve got a topic you’d like us to cover, you can email us at [email protected] dot AU.Ray, thanks so much for joining us on The One Thing today.Great being here, Jo. I’m Jo Gibbs.Chat soon.