25% of people in churches will have switched in the last 5 years. Changing churches is hard, but it’s meant to be.

• When is a good time for people to move churches (geography, kids and families)?
• What are some of realities of people switching?
• How do pastors pastor people doing a switch (both leaving and gaining)?
• What about people moving to a church plant?

TOOL BOX:

How to Walk into Church

Unmissable Church

301 How do I Help People come to Church? (Part 1) about Unmissable Church

302 How do I Help People come to Church? (Part 2) about Unmissable Church

Integration Pathway

Love Your Church 

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TRANSCRIPT:

The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.

We have a real clarity about what we’re wanting to see in the next 10 years.And that’s 200 new churches launched across Australia and loads and loads of churches and their leadership teams being equipped to be healthy, evangelistic and multiplying.

If you’re thinking about that as a church, if you’re you’re wanting help, reach out.Head to reach australia.com dot AU now.Today we’re gonna be talking about people transitioning from church to church.So the NCLS calls that a Switcher.

The reality is that there’s lots of transfer growth.If we kind of look across the, the global population of Protestant churches across Australia, 26% of people in our churches will have switched or transferred in the last one to five years, which means a significant population of people have have been moving and, and changing churches.

Now the reality is for many people that happens because of changes in life circumstances.People moving, moving in those key transitions in life as they, as they have kids, as they, as they move from university to, to work, as they retire as well across Australia generally, you know, people move between sort of 10 to, you know, 10 to 13 years in terms of buying a house and, and moving.

So there’s a reality that people are always kind of moving and, and, and transitioning, but in church life, it’s, it’s a definite reality.You know, 25% of people are switching and transferring from churches.Now that is, that is kind of a reason, but there are a whole bunch of other reasons why people transfer as well.

So we’re going to be looking at this topic today.And just as Derek and I kind of reflected, we kind of both feel this is a bit of a hard 1.So hopefully as we as we dig into this, we’re going to help you guys think about what this means as you pastor and lead churches and and how to how to talk about it.

But for now, you press play on another episode of The One Thing Helping People transition churches.Today’s podcast is brought to you by Compassion Australia.There are currently 283,000,000 global neighbours facing food risks partnering with children in need from around the world.

Compassion seeks to release children from poverty in Jesus name.Head to compassion.com dot AU to find out more about sponsorship or how your church can be involved.And now back to the podcast.So, Derek, I guess the, the big question in this whole episode is when is it a good time to leave church?

We know in scripture that we’re called to, to meet regularly.We know that it’s it’s important part of our spiritual growth, our our church family.We know that experientially, we know that from from scripture gathering and gathering with God’s people is is vital.

But when’s it a good time to leave a?Church, That’s a great question, Scott.Look, I think my initial reaction to that is whenever, whenever it is, it should be hard.It should be hard.So if you’re, if you’re leaving a church, it should feel a little bit painful that points, it should feel, there should be a, a sense of, you know, a lack or yeah, a desire for, for you to be able to stay and stay connected, partly because of the nature of church.

And I think if, if it’s easy to go, if it’s easy to move on, something probably has gone wrong either in our engagement with church or something is wrong with our theological understanding of what church is.It’s not like moving football clubs.

It’s not like, you know, moving house.Moving house can be an emotional experience.And I think moving church should be possibly even a more emotional experience than that.So when’s a good time to to leave church?I’m not sure.Like we can, we can flesh that out.But I think my initial reaction to that question is whenever it is it, it should be a it should be a hard thing at some level, a slightly painful thing because of the nature of church, as we understand I’m.

Going to RIP the band aid off.I’m going to RIP the band aid off for maybe, you know, share a bit about my experience of, of leaving churches and when I’ve left churches, the ones that I can can think of.We, we moved from WA to Sydney as a kid.So we left at, at Prezi church in Leederville to a Prezi church in Ashfield.

My next, my next movement transition point was when we, when we left working with WIC as a family, moved to moved to Mosman.And so we moved from Ashfield presidents and Clements.I stayed, stayed with that all through my university or through my high school and then university.And then it was only when I went to Bible college then I kind of made the transition to, you know, to, to leave and it, and it was a positive leaving in the sense that I was leaving to go and become a student minister in a church at, at Marylands.

Now, what was interesting in that kind of 12 year period when I was at St Clement’s, we did move house.So we moved, you know, sort of 2020 minutes away, 30 minutes away, but I still continue to, you know, keep moving to my church.I can remember my brother, my brother moved, my brother moved to, you know, to a church closer to home.

And, and I can remember his reasons, part of his reasons where he was a tradie and, and, and the church in Mosman, there weren’t a lot of young tradies, but moving down to a church in Manly, there were a whole bunch of young tradies.So that was really helpful for him and his kind of spiritual walk had the three years through college and then again had kind of a a reason to leave, moved to, to go and start a job as a chaplain on the on the North Shore.

And then confronted with Natalie, my wife, not growing up in that area, but but me growing up in that area.So one of the churches we could have chosen to go to was my old home church.Another one of the churches we could have chosen to was a church where, where there was a board member, you know, in the, in the school to employ me.

And then there was AI guess a, a new church plan or a new church planning in, in church by the bridge.And so we decided to go for the new thing, you know, where we both weren’t kind of known, but I, you know, I can remember.That was a hard decision.And next transition point was when we moved away from Kiribili and moved to, you know, moved out of the area and then we moved to a church close by.

And I can remember leaving that church positively to go and join a church plan and help them grow a morning service.We had four kids at the time.But also negatively, I left that church because I had some issues with the, with the leadership and the direction of the church.

And so there was, I was able to kind of positively coat it.But but really one of the reasons was that I was, I was frustrated with our, with our lack of evangelistic zeal and our, our desire to kind of, you know, reach out to the local population.That was a hard, that was a hard one to leave.

That was a grief.Yeah.Yeah, yeah.And in some ways I hearing you say that.And so I’m current, I’m currently Vaughan and, and can and have been at Vine now for I think 7, seven or eight years.And and part of me at at points in time has, has asked the question, you know, should should we have left?

Partly, partly because we’ve got a very small youth group.We’ve been involved in a number of kind of church plants.So my kids have always been the oldest.They haven’t had a peer group around them.You know, would it have been better to go to a, you know, a larger church, a church where they’ve got a cohort of kids around them encouraging them?

And that continues to to, you know, to be a real wrestle.Yeah.So, so you’ve mentioned a few things in there that’s worth kind of highlighting 1 is like there’s a geographic leaving and that that’s obviously like you’re moving out of there.It’s very hard to be involved in a community at church where you’re you’re living more than probably 45 minutes away.

That’s really hard to actually be actively involved within that.So that might be 1 second one and the.Reality.The reality is just a, The reality is most people come within 15 minutes drive of church.So, you know, so if you think about a church and a population, most of the people come in at kind of 15 minute drivetime radius.

Absolutely no.I was working with the church the other day that has someone coming from an hour away, and that’s because of the particular type of church they are.But the reality is as they acknowledge, that person can’t really be involved in the community during the week.They can come on Sunday, but that’s it.So geography is one reason.

I suppose the second reason is there’s, there is the kids factor within here for families sometimes as well.And I think you, I, I want to be really careful with this one because we don’t want to be consumerists, but we also don’t want to sacrifice our kids on the altar of, of ministry, our, our ministry and desire to do that.

So we’re part of revitalization where we took out three kids as well and they really loved being there, but there were no kids their age at all.And so we did have to make a decision at some point as that church got up.And it’s going really well.

But as that church got up on its feet, we had to make a decision just to connect them with a wider body of kids.Well, so there is a kids factor I think you mentioned as well and.Now on that, on that kids factor as well, I guess you on that kids factor as well, you could also, you know, put in there, there’s no single people like me, there’s no older people like me.

There’s no university population, you know, like, so you could think about all those kind of demographic reasons where you go, there’s not someone like me.And and that’s really important in my spiritual growth.No, that’s right.And, and, but I think the the difference in their side is because you’re right, you can, you can keep going more, more, more granular to say I have to have something that exactly matches me, but that’s about me.

That decision is where there’s this balance with the kids.I find you are making decisions You have, I have responsibility for the welfare of of discipling these people that God has entrusted me.And so I’m trying to make decisions.

I don’t wanna I wanna help them.See, actually we are missionaries.And so we do things where it’s not all about our comfort, but at the same time not letting that tip over into.And therefore I’m gonna sacrifice you on the altar of my desire to be a missionary as well.

It’s it’s that’s a very tricky balance, that one.Yeah, but I was, look, I was gonna say the third thing I think you flagged in there as well is the there is the reality that in a fallen and broken world that we will have conflict within the church with, with irreconcilable conflict sometimes with people around us, people in leadership.

So I know people left Village Church where I was at because of conflict with me.And, you know, sometimes we were able to work through that and so was amicable and sometimes we weren’t.And both of those situations I grieved and you know, lots of them are still painful, but there will be those moments that there is irreconcilable difference this side of eternity, this side of perfection.

And so I think that’s probably the other reason to say there will be moments we where it has to be, it has to be deeply thought through.It cannot be a knee jerk reaction, but there will be times in which you think for the good of the community here, for the good of us, the retrieval ethic is we need to move churches, but that needs to be done thoughtfully.

So, so I guess a couple of other sort of negative and positives, you know, the positive is, is actually being sent, you know, so being part of a church planning team, you know, being sent to, you know, minister in a, in a, in a different context or a different place, being sent overseas cross, you know, for cross cultural mission as well.

So there’s the the positive and, and the other negative.You know, you, you’ve kind of raised the issue of kind of conflict.But you know, the other kind of conflict piece that I think is, you know, maybe is, is potentially around the corner more and more happening is where where a church is actually leaving the gospel And and and actually we’re going to be called to say, hey, we’re we’re leaving because this church is actually not preaching, proclaiming the gospel.

Yeah.So I guess one of the, one of the questions that I, I kind of want to ask is how do you pass to someone, you know, through that transition?So as you said, at, at village, pastoring people at village, they were, they were probably people leaving for negative reasons, you know, conflict and, and, you know, disagreements with you, the leadership, others, they’re also people leaving positively.

How do you, how do you pass to both sets of people?What does it look like to disciple people in that moment?As a pastor, what are some things you can help us think through?Well, I think part of pastoring and caring for people in transition to church is helping them understand when they’re in your church what church is and the key part of place within the work of God.

So I think unless you have a strong theology of the body and church that you teach on a regular basis, that you communicate to people, that you speak about when people are at your church, there’s no reason why they would transition well because they have no theology.

It is just about moving from 1 soccer club to another, one footy club, one church to another.There’s nothing about it that’s different than how the world might deal with moving, you know, coffee shops.And so I think part of helping them transition well is went to the ratty church building.A strong theology of church itself, I think.

I think the second thing in there is you want for, and it’s obviously easy when people are leaving for for good reasons.So as you said, going to be a part of the church plan or going to moving jobs, moving different city or whatever it might be, it’s easier in that.But I think part of it is helping to understand what they’re looking for in the church as well.

What are the, what are the markers of a, a church that they should be looking to be part of around Bible teaching, around community, fellowship, theology, all those kind of things, helping them do it in that way.I, I suppose the, the third thing that comes to mind as well is it when in, in most places, particularly young adults, we saw this, there would be four or five churches that we know young adults would just move around churches.

They’d be, they’d be frustrated with one church, they’d move to the next church, frustrated with that church, the mythic, they would just circle around.So actually one of the ways in which we the passage of churches that we knew in Brisbane cared for them was was communicating with each other when that was happening.

And so talking to people about the people that might be moving in order to, you know, not to head into gossip, but so the people didn’t fall through the cat cracks disappear.So actually helping people transition between one church to the the next as they grow within that.

So, you know, there are some things that’s.That’s an interesting 1.So, So what I guess I’m I’m interested what, what does that conversation look like?You know, calling up, calling up Pastor.Hey, just letting you know, Yeah, Person X, they’re going to be, they’re going to be great.You know, they’ve, they’ve LED, they’ve LED Home group.

They’ve been 1, you know, wonderful servants or just letting you know this person’s going to be a, a real hassle.They’ve been divisive.You know, they’ve, they’ve been tough.He’s how he can pass them.You know, here’s where we here’s where we got up to.What?What does that conversation actually look like?

Yeah, it would actually, it would often look like it would often come from the person whose church they landed in rather than the church that were that they left.And so that conversation was built on trust.So in in Brisbane, yeah, when I was pastoring there, there would be a couple of guys.

So Dave Pitt, for example, at Saint Lucia Bible Church, it was called the Nudi Church.We would have regular conversation because people would be moving between churches because they were frustrated, although whatever reason.And so some would move to uni church and Dave would give me a call and say this person turned up.

I know they’ve been a village church.Is there anything that would be helpful to know to care about them?And so that’s where it would often come from.So it’s not, you know, it’s not saying here’s the list of ministry they’re involved in.So here’s what you should talk to them about.It is the conversation to say this person’s turned up, How do we help them?

So Dave would if I nudge them back towards village or I would nudge them back towards uni church in order to not run away from the problems but but engage with the the issues themselves.So that that conversation was less about ministry involvement and much more a partial care.

This person’s turned up.Is there anything I should know in order to care for them?Well, that was what the conversation was.Now thinking about the context of a plant, you know, we don’t want to be just about rearranging the deck chairs, but there’s a reality.The new thing starts it, it draws a whole bunch of people to it.

Advice to a planting launch team, a planter about, about, I guess the process of, of, of, of welcoming the, the membership process of, of having new people join your church.What are just some helpful things that you want to have in your, in your pathway that can, I guess help mitigate people joining your church that are, that are going to be unhelpful, but also, I guess ultimately discipling people well into your church or out of your church.

And I know the, the real wrestle in a church plan is you’re kind of in that stage where you’re kind of just wanting everyone to join and you’ll, you’ll say yes to everyone, but actually that can be unhelpful, unhelpful for you as a church, but also unhelpful for the person that’s that’s wanting to join your church plan.Any thoughts on that?

Yeah, yeah, it is you.You do feel like you’re scrambling.So it’s the temptation is not to ask questions because the questions might lead to awkwardness in there and people not coming.So even before you launch, though, this is one of the reasons why, well, we talked to planners about connecting with other pastors in their area in a really positive way, sitting and praying with them.

So the trust level is built.So inevitably when when people turn up from those churches, you can give that pastor a call and have that conversation initially.But the things in those of courses you, you are trying to establish a a deep, clear biblical theology of what it is this church is and where it’s going so that they understand what they’re joining.

And so regularly has this great, great piece that I know he talks about we in those, the membership courses, he talks to people about the fact that he he wants some people to join, discover Jesus, join them on the mission.

But in order to do that, there’s people who’ve come before them who are now uncomfortable, have had to change, make room for new people coming.And so the reality of joining this church is we want you to feel comfortable, but in an ongoing way because of the nature of the gospel and the mission itself.

If they’re joining, they’ve got to know that it will be uncomfortable in the future.They’re going to need to change in order for new people to come in as well.So flagging that up front as well a little bit like you’re doing church plans where you’re saying what it is now this, we’re sitting around 25 people, it’s fantastic.

We’re all loving it.This is not what it’s going to be in a year’s time.And we need to be OK with that.We need to, we might long to the days where it’s just a small group of people, but actually we are looking to reach as many people as possible and that will be uncomfortable.So our goal is not to be comfortable.

Our goal is to reach people.And so embedding that in the DNA of your church in that membership course is really key.One last thing I think as well, one of the things you learn over time is with the kinds of people who this is talking Christians, particularly the kind of Christians you might attract to the church and the issues that they might have the the.

Kind of hobby horses they will have and so trying to address that upfront.And so there there might be a number of theological issues, you know, because of your church or tradition that come up every single time that you attract from Christians, particularly because generally the challenges in church are from Christians, not non Christians.

So those are the things which you put upfront, you address you, you kind of put the dead cat on the table and say here’s what we think about these things so that you don’t have that awkwardness 8 months in when they’re better, they can make them see you in upfront.So one final question, how do you actually help people start well in a new church?

What’s your what’s your advice when when a new family comes, a new couple or single person comes to your church, What’s what’s your advice?I think you need to be really clear about who it is, what your DNA and what your mission is.

I, I think you need to be as clear as is humanly possible at that point in the newcomers lunch course, in the membership course in order for people to understand what kind of church that they are joining and becoming a paddle.

It’s very hard for people 8-10 months down the track when they may have begun to make connections, relational connections, when their kids might have for them to, to turn over a stone within your church and realise, I had no idea that they believe this.Now for, for example, I think the complementarian issue for a lot of people is, is one which at some level for complementarian churches, they do need to to lead with upfront.

I’m not saying it’s the it’s not a gospel issue, but I’m saying for a lot of people it will be a massive stumbling block.So that just as an example, that’s something you need to to probably lead with upfront without making too big a deal with it.But so people know because if they get 12 months in and they realise you have a conviction that women don’t teach the bulb from the front, but I do have that conviction, it’s very hard for them to step back out.

So just trying to work out what are the things that we need to put in front of people in order for them to help make decisions around whether this is a part, this is a church they want to be a part of.Well, Derek, what’s the one thing you want to say about people transitioning into a new church?

I.Think, I want to say it will be hard and it should be hard.I think people leading churches, they need to understand that it’s, it might feel personal this, but it’s not about them.We want to work out how we disciple people well in the time that we’ve got them and the time they transition between churches.

Because ultimately this is not about us and our ministry and our growing church.This is about discipling and loving people.So we’ve got to work out how we do that without letting an impact on our own sense of identity or success within that.

Awesome, Really, really helpful practical advice and thinking.One, one final thing that I encourage church leaders to do as well is as people leave, you know, use as an opportunity to actually ask people about their experience at church about why they’re leaving.

You can, you can gather a whole bunch of information.And again, often could be a hard, hard decision, but it also could be a really encouraging decision as as you see people leaving for positive reasons as well.So, so take the opportunity kind of at the end of that pathway as people are being sent to actually understand, you know, more about the, the what and The Who and the, and the why as people leave.

Well, I just want to remind people open up a couple of things in the toolbox.Just a couple of books to help think into this topic.The first is a book by Tony Payne on called How to Walk into church.Lots of practical advice for the church member on on thinking about what does it look like to prepare yourself or get yourself ready, you know, ready to be able to engage with God’s people, engage with God’s Word.

Another recent book with some helpful research by Anthony Barakoff and Richard Sweatman is called Unmissable Church.Again, I, I think they offer some really helpful reasons just about, I guess, church and gathering in the importance of that, but that’s just a really useful book to be, to be thinking into this space as well.

We talked a lot about the membership course and, and your pathway as well.Look, I will put some links in the show notes to some some resources on your integration pathway.Hearing from Tim Clemons, aiming Town Townsend as well.We’ve got some great resources.

So this is a probably an opportunity to reflect on on that member moment, that time when when someone actually joins in church, a really useful time to sort of think through what are you actually doing to help people enter in the church life, But also the the sending aspect of the pathway.

What does it look like to actually help people leave Well as well.And then final resource, Derek, you’ve been reading a book by Tony Merida on loving your church.Yep, that’s right.We’re doing that this as a church at the moment actually where I’m at.

So yeah, Tony, Love your Church is called by Tony Merida and there’s a whole bunch of other books that he has written or he’s organised other people to write around the different topics like belonging, welcoming, gathering, caring, serving, honouring, witnessing, sending really helpful book.It’s good.Yeah.

And I think this is something that kind of came out our recent, recent conference.But I think regularly in your gathering talking about the importance of gathering, I think you’ve got to, we’ve got to keep teaching people about this, reminding people about this.Because the reality is, you know, our gatherings, you know, each to each week are profound, but often they’re not very profound.

You know, it’s just the meat and potatoes of, of being a Christian heading along to a small group, heading along to church, sitting under God’s word, catching up with God’s people regularly.So I reckon it’s a really important thing to to be regularly talking about the importance of gathering is God’s people.Well, if you’ve got a topic that you want us to cover, please email us at resources at [email protected] dot AU.

We want to keep answering your questions and making this helpful podcast for you and your team to engage with.I’m Scott Sanders.I’m Derek Henna.Chat soon.