[0:01]
You're listening to plenary session number [music] two at the Reach Australia National Conference in 2026. We pride ourselves resources fruitful for you and for your ministry. >> [music] >> If you do find it helpful, can you give $5 to help support the people and the network behind it? Your gift helps us [music] to make more gospel-centered resources available to churches across the nation. >> Just before sunset on a Friday, we finish up all our to-do list and homework and grocery shopping and responsibilities, power down all of our devices. We literally put them in a box and it sits in the closet and gather

[0:32]
around the table as a family. We open a bottle of wine, light candles, read, pray, and then we feast. And we basically don't stop feasting for the next 24 hours. It's the Kama way and I might add the Jesus way. We sleep in Saturday morning, drink coffee, read our Bibles, pray more, spend time together, talk, laugh. In summer, walk to the park. In winter, light a fire. Get lost in good novels on the couch, cuddle, nap. The Jews even have a name for the Sabbath nap called the Sabbath shalf. We

[1:04]
should nap hard on the Sabbath. Make love. I feel free. Free from the need to do more, get more, be more. Free from the spirit, the evil demonic spirit that enslaves of restlessness that enslaves our society. I feel another spirit, the Holy Spirit of restful calm settle over my whole person. >> What an incredible description of a day

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off. Like that is just unbelievable. It's so beautiful. It's so creaturely. It's so wonderful. And yet, I think there is a major problem with that day off. I think there's a problem not in its excess, but in what's it's lacking. Because the Sabbath for John Mark Comer is not just a day off, it's a key way that he disciples himself against the world of busyness, of restfulness, of

[2:07]
getting more. The Sabbath is a way that we actually disciple ourselves to Jesus, and if that's your day off, I do think there is a problem not in the success, but in its lack. So, what is it missing? I think it is missing the gathering of God's people under the word of God which is our church gathering. Now, you might say John Mark Comer does talk about church gathering, and yes he

[2:38]
does, but if you put it on page 183 of a 232-page book in chapter five called Practicing the Way, I think that's a problem because it says something about the place of the gathering in your growth and discipleship as a Christian, and it says that it's a minor note, if you can hear it at all, in the whole symphony that is transformation of life. And I think that is a problem. I didn't expect to get a clap there.

[3:09]
Now, we might not sign up to the theological statement that the church gathering is not that important, but I do wonder if we feel like that sometimes. You know, not every sermon, unfortunately, gets to my heart. Not every song is my vibe. Not every coffee we make is drinkable. Um you know, and whether it's somehow between the beer-smelling carpet at our

[3:40]
10:00 a.m. service or the carpet on the roof uh at our 4:30 service, sometimes I think, "Man, maybe this is a Sunday that's going to be a dud." Like I turn around and I look and I see all the people who I know aren't there. All the people who don't know Jesus that we know who aren't there for that Sunday and I think I I don't sign up to what John Mark's saying, but I can feel like it. That actually maybe this Sunday gathering isn't that instrumental

[4:12]
to growing in the Christian life. So, what I want to do now is just to encourage us and remind us often as those with the responsibilities of making those church gatherings happen that they are vital, that they are instrumental to God transforming his people. And we're going to read Ephesians chapter 4 verse 7 to 16. Ephesians chapter 4 starting from verse 7.

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Now, grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. For it says, "When he ascended on high, he took the captives captive and he gave gifts to people." But what does he ascended mean except that he also descended to the lower parts of the earth? The one who descended is also the one who ascended far above all the heavens to fill all things. And he himself gave some to be a prophet uh apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers equipping the saints for the work of ministry

[5:19]
to the build it to build up the body of Christ until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God's son growing into maturity with a stature measured by Christ's fullness. Then we will no longer be little children tossed by the waves and blown around by every wind of teaching by human cunning with cleverness in the techniques of deceit. But speaking the truth in love, let us grow in every way into him who is the head, Christ.

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From him the whole body, fitted and knit together by every supporting ligament, promotes the growth of the body for building up itself in love by the proper working of each individual part. Let's get up to speed on where we are. We just read the beginning of Ephesians chapter 4, which is important. You know why? Ephesians 1 to 3 is mainly about the theology. Uh Ephesians 4 to 6 is mainly about the practice. And you can see that in verse 1 from chapter 4, therefore I, because of the theology,

[6:24]
because of what Jesus has done, because he has a cosmic victory over sin and death through his death on the cross, God is victorious. That is verse 6, one God and Father of all who is above all and through all and in all. And Jesus is victorious. Verses 7 to 9, he ascended on high. He's the one who took the captives captive. But in that victory, Jesus is something peculiar in verse 8. If I was victorious in anything, like I want an award.

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Like I want a certificate. I want a medal. I want the little pins that kids get at primary school assemblies. Like I want that thing to show everyone that I won. But what does Jesus do in verse 8? Instead of taking, he gives. That's weird, isn't it? He gives. And he gives to his people what?

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More people. Verse 11. And he himself, that's Jesus, gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, equipping the saints for the work of ministry to the build up the body of Christ until we all reach unity in the faith and the knowledge of God's son. Because Jesus won, he gives apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelists, pastors, teachers to each church to grow them.

[7:59]
Now, I do know there's a little bit of debate around verses 11 and 13 and how you read them and what they mean for today. So, we'll just fly through the options and you can take your pick and I'll tell you mine. There's a three positions. They do make a difference because they make a difference in how you apply these verses to church. The first position is that Christ in verse 11 is giving those gifts today. Apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, and evangelists. And if it's happening today, therefore we as a church are also to do verse 11. That is

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we are to find a point and train pastors, teachers, apostles, prophets, evangelists, teachers. That should be our ministry model. That's position one. Now, I find that unconvincing because verse 11 he himself gave. Past tense. And so, that leads us to position two. This is actually something that happened in the past. In this view,

[9:01]
verse 11 is not something that happens today, but it's something that happened in the past. Namely, verse 11 happened at Pentecost and is in and it works out through the book of Acts. Verse 11, therefore, the equipping of the saints is when those people in verse 11 equip the first Jewish Christian church, that is the saints, for the building up the body, which is verse 13, which is growing the church from the Gentile nations. In this position, we do not do verses 11 to 13. It's already

[9:33]
done. Rather, we do verses 14 to 16. We do the truth in love in our church gatherings. We do the work God has given each part of the body, the end being the building up of the entire body as each part does its work. That's position two. Close to it is position three. Position three is that verse 11 happened, but also has implications and continues. Even as verse 11 is talking about what happened at Pentecost,

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because this is Christian scripture, it has implications for us as pastors, teachers, and evangelists today. God still gifts people to lead the church in word ministry. And so our job, cuz we are verse 11, is to equip local gatherings, that is the saints in verse 12, to do the work of ministry, which is the building up of one another to the goal of complete maturity and fullness of Christ. More practically, what that looks like, verses 14 to 16.

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Truth and love, each part of the body doing its work. In this position, God does verse 11, we do verse 12, and our churches do verse 13. Now, I'm a little bit torn between uh position two and position three. Uh I'm currently on position three. You can take your pick, but the good thing about those last two positions is that the local church has the same goal. Has the same goal. The local church still does word

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ministry to each other because each part in the body needs to work from the truth and love in the gospel so that we all grow. Notice what this means. Jesus won. And what does he do in his victory? He gives churches us a church more gifted people to speak and preach and lead us in the

[11:39]
gospel in our gatherings so that we all sit under it all equipped and all grow together as one mature in Christ transformed holy and perfect before him. How important is the local church in the growth and transformation of his people? Jesus exactly gave his gift for that reason.

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That we would grow together in our gatherings. I think this has three implications for us who think or feel that our church gatherings are not that important. First thing, do we need the church gathering? Yes, because we need it to grow. We need the church. Your church members need church. The lost need church and you need the church

[12:43]
in order to grow to be like Christ. Your church needs the ministry of the word to sit under. Your church needs truth and love from others to grow. And you know what? That's exactly what people who don't know Jesus need and that is exactly what you need if you are going to make it to the end. Verses 14 and 15, lovely turn of phrase. Paul goes from first person singular or talking about them to including himself. We will no longer be little children. But speaking the truth in love, let us

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grow in every way into him who is the head Christ. Paul includes himself along with all others called to know Jesus as needing the gathering. We will not grow without the gathering of God's people under His word. Uh Willem à Brakel faced that exact problem in the Dutch Reformation, uh sometimes

[13:46]
called the Dutch Second Reformation because what they did is that they took the insights of the Reformation we all kind of know, uh that was a reformation of doctrine down into the reformation of personal lives. And for Brakel, who's actually faced with this exact problem, there was a whole bunch of people, uh don't even know where he was, Dutch, wherever that is, uh there was a whole bunch of people there. Um some of you might know Rory from Perth, he's really bad with numbers. I'm really bad with locations. >> [laughter] >> Um he faced a problem

[14:17]
that there was a whole bunch of people who thought, "I don't need to go to church. I can just stay on my own and read my Bible and I will grow." And one of the reasons why he wrote his systematic theology is to show them, "No, you won't. Without the church, you don't have the way that God actually chose to change you." This is what he says. "One individual person does not constitute a church or a congregation. The church is referred to as a house. One stone does not constitute a house. One sheep does not constitute a flock.

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One member is not a body. One person is not a nation. One person is not a kingdom. The primary purpose of the church's existence is the glorification of God. The second objective is the salvation of the elect. As such, she is fruitful into the conversion of many souls by the preaching of the word. The Lord will add to the church daily such as should be saved. The growth of His children is the goal and objective God has in view by administering the means of grace to them." Which passage does Brakel then

[15:20]
reference? Ephesians 4. 11 to 15. God will reach his goal and his word will not return to him void. Thus God's children will grow in grace. We need the church to grow. Second reason, we need the church not just to grow but because you need the

[15:51]
gifts of the people Jesus has given us. You need the appointed people. You need the public ministry of the word in your gatherings. The public ministry of the word from the ones Jesus gifted to do it, that is his gift to all of us to grow. In other words, you just can't put any kind of gathering of Christians on the same level as the Sunday or Saturday or church gathering that you have. What is unique to the church gathering

[16:21]
is that we all get to sit under the public ministry of the word together from the people that Jesus has gifted to do it. We don't just need each other in any old setting. We need each other specifically in the setting of where we sit under the word together as a church. We need the church because of the gifts that Jesus has given us for that public ministry of the word.

[16:52]
That's the second reason we need We need the church to grow. We need the church in its public ministry. And lastly, we need the church because we're weak. Uh to quote John Calvin or to quote Kelly Kapic, because you're only human. According to Calvin, there's something in our human condition, not just sin, but in the very way that God made us that is not perfect. It is actually called being human. And to be human means to be weak, which is according to Calvin is the exact reason

[17:22]
why we need the church gathering. In particular, it's the problem for Calvin that Ephesians 4 solves. Put it this way, if you ask Calvin, what's the problem with a blissful Sabbath, even if you meet with other Christians for a meal that doesn't include the church gathering, I think Calvin would say, I don't think you know who you really are. He literally says this. Since now ignorance and sloth, to which

[17:53]
I add fickleness of disposition, we need outward helps to beget and increase faith within us and advance it to its goal. God has also added aids that he may provide for our weakness. Our weakness does not allow us to be dismissed from her school, that is the church gathering, until we've been pupils all of our lives. The answer to whether we need the church or not for Calvin is not so much located in his ecclesiology, it's located in his anthropology.

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It's because we're human that we need the gathering. We're sinful and weak. We're rebellious and unable. We're perpetrators and victims, and we need the school of Christ to grow and learn and reach the end, transform before Jesus. We need the school of Christ actually learn who Jesus is, to trust in him to actually place our lives in him. Because without it, as individuals, we can't do it.

[18:54]
We are not strong enough to make it. Let me end by telling you a story about one of my sisters. I've I've grown up in a family where I have three older sisters, and the oldest one is called Sarah. Um uh she is very short. Uh she is like 150 cm tall, has a huge voice, powerful voice, kind of like always got the solos in choir and performances. And uh she was the naturally the smartest out of all of us. She got the scholarships, she

[19:24]
got the awards. Um she was an incredibly intelligent person. Of all the three career options that Adam mentioned yesterday, of being a failure, of being a lawyer, she actually became the last one. She became a doctor. Just like my dad. Uh but in a bad turn of events, which is really hard to describe, uh she made lots of bad choices and over

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the course of 20 years of bad choices, um she kind of fried her brain. Um person that she is now >> [crying] >> is not someone that I really think of as my sister. Um she uh she's not a doctor anymore. She she's involved with the wrong crowd. She spends all of her money or what's left of it of really unhelpful things. She goes in and out of hospitals, she goes in and out of the city, in and out of

[20:25]
states. Uh most of the time, I don't know where she is. Most of the time, I don't want to know. Uh the last year of Bible College was really memorable for me, not because of all the assignments and study and stuff, but um because my sister actually kind of had this uh breakdown and lived with us in our house for a while. Don't tell the college housing that that happened. Um >> [laughter] >> we were harboring someone else.

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Uh she lived with us and then 1 month later, she's calling me up on the phone threatening me to give her money or else. But in a weird turn of events, she actually called me up one day and she asked if she could go to church. Can she go to church? That is a you know, what a kind of question is that? Can I go to church like, of course you can, right? So, I give her some details. I tell her where to go.

[21:27]
What would you pray for happens for my sister Sarah that Sunday morning when she walks in? I'll tell you what I prayed for. I prayed that when she was like really far off, like 50 m away from the building, the first person she sees would welcome her with a truth and grace that comes from the gospel. That it be like the welcome that Christ gave us. I pray that the person who's handing out coffee to all the person who's handing out the bulletin actually sees her as

[21:58]
she is. She is someone who's made in the image of God that needs the grace of the gospel to be saved. I pray that she hears the talk that's not just about my mind and information, but actually gets down to her being and doing. Into a hope that she has for the future in where she places her identity. I pray that the songs will lift her up. I pray that the confession humbles her down. I pray that every person that she meets her on that Sunday in all their variety and all their gifts and all of their differences, their tenacity to love her

[22:30]
would outlast her for her fragility to run away. She called me after she went. Said, "Paul, I loved it. Um >> [snorts] >> they gave me free coffee. And it wasn't even barista coffee. That is at Murray Capel's church. You know, it was just instant. And she said, "The sermon like I hung on to every word. The people were really nice and the songs is like I was high, but in the right kind of way."

[23:02]
That's what my sister needs. And that's what you need. And that's what Australia needs if they're ever going to come to know the Lord Jesus. And the encouraging thing of Ephesians 4 is that we don't ask the question now, do we have what it takes? Could we do that? The encouragement of Ephesians 4 is, no, Jesus has gifted all of that to all of our gatherings. So, how do we make the most

[23:34]
of what Jesus has already gifted us? I'm going to pray. Almighty God, we thank you for the church. And as leaders here in this building, we need the local gathering.

[24:04]
The saints in our churches need it as well. And our country, Australia, needs the church. And Father, our hearts yearn to see more and more disciples made, to see people go from darkness to light, and to see the saved grow up to be more and more like Christ, who loved to gather on a Sunday and welcome the lost to see them saved. And we pray this in Jesus' name. Amen. Uh our next speaker is uh Dave Jensen.

[24:35]
I'm going to invite Dave up here to the platform. >> [applause] >> So, what we've been doing over the last couple days, we asked some of the speakers a couple of questions. So, Dave, I thought it'd be just good to ask you, what's your kind of ideal day off to get you, you know, revved up and fresh for the the week in front of you as you lead and do your role? >> Just before sundown on a Friday, we crack open a bottle of man and Jew, get some chips, huge pile of chicken salt.

[25:05]
We look forward to the weekend ahead of going to suburban rugby league grounds and watching our sons, who are terrible at rugby league, get bashed by bigger kids, before my wife and I have several passive-aggressive arguments. Uh the dog, who wheezes whenever he sees me, um >> [laughter] >> we match it up. It's the Jensen way. It's what we do. I wrote that during the talk. That's pretty good. >> Good. Well, I'll I'll hand over to you, Dave. >> That's it. All right. Thanks very much.

[25:37]
My subject today is the transformative power of the gathering. And just cuz I'm this sort of guy, a good guy, what I'm going to get you to do is take a break. Feel free to stretch your legs. Don't leave. Feel free to stretch your legs, okay? But I want you to consider this question, and you have 1 minute to do it, okay? Next question, please. What does a church gathering, it's just a easy question, what does a church gathering that radically transforms people look like? I'm timing you. 1 minute. Stretch your legs. Take a break. Go for it. Now, by virtue of the fact that you're

[26:09]
at the Reach Australia National Conference, I'm going to make several assumptions about you. I hope that's okay. Number one, that as a result, no, let me say that again. As a Because you're here, I'm going to make assumptions about you, and and I want to take a guess that the following assumptions are accurate. Okay. Assumption number one, you would love to see non-Christians radically transformed by coming to Christ. Yeah. Number two, that gets a clap. What

[26:40]
are we, Hillsong conference? Get out of here, man. Okay? But seriously, come see me later. No, no, please. I like it. I get it. I see why they do it. Okay. Two, Christians radically transformed to the likeness of Christ. We want to see people won, we want to see people grown. If you don't want those things, there's the door. What are you doing here? Okay, that's what we're all about. No, don't leave. We want you to have those things. But, please hold on to them. Now, I trust neither of those two outcomes are controversial. However, it's when we start thinking about how

[27:10]
they occur that things can get a little bit spicy. Because the tension, particularly as it pertains to the gathering of believers that we call church, the tension about how we achieve both of those things simultaneously has led us over church history to all manner of places, many of them tragically horrible. This has been one of the great pressure points in evangelical ministry. If church is fundamentally the gathering of believers, which by very definition, of

[27:41]
course, it is, then can the ordinary gathering achieve both aims? What generally tends to happen is, due to the very personal preferences or or gifting of the senior pastor, churches will lean one way or the other. We're a maturity church. We feed the saints. We're a mission church. We feed the lost. So, do we have to choose? Well, I want to offer um this morning still, yeah, that that choice is a false one.

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We don't have to choose. And not because of optimism, not because of church growth theory, but because God's word offers and outlines for us a better alternative, much, much better. Now, the key passage for us is 1 Corinthians 14. Paul in that passage describes what should happen when a church gathers. He warns against chaotic worship that leaves outsiders confused. But, let me paraphrase together verse 24 and 25 from the ESV. But, if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters,

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he is convicted by all, And so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you. Notice Paul's assumptions. One, outsiders are present. Two, Christians are being edified. Three, the gathering remains intelligible. And four, simultaneously, there's a moment in that passage we skip over. You may have just

[29:15]
not not picked it up, but if you've got non-believers who are called non-believers, if they come and they're convicted and they worship God, what's the other word we use for that? CONVERSION. THAT NON-CHRISTIANS become Christians. Now, how is that relevant for us? Well, can you put your hand in the air if you can think of any non-Christian who has come to your church in the last month? Can you think of any? It is like Hillsong conference, all those hands up. Look at us. >> [laughter]

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>> Yeah, it's good. What about the last 2 weeks? Can you think of a non-Christian at your church last 2 weeks? Some of you aren't putting your hands up anymore. Okay. I guarantee you that amongst the people who have been there for a long time, long-suffering spouses, long-suffering children, the deluded and confused who've been there for a while, or the people who've been brought along that week, or the people who have just turned up on their own, our churches are full of non-Christian

[30:17]
people. And those non-Christian people who attend a church gathering on a non-special event Sunday are the Australians most likely to be converted in our community. Talk about a hot contact. Willing to come to church in Australia. Not on Christmas or Easter. Mama mia. What is wrong with them? They're there. Paul doesn't see maturity and mission. Amen. Paul doesn't say maturity and mission as competing agendas. He sees them happening in the same room. Don't miss this at the same time. Don't miss this

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bit around the same word. And not only does the Bible tell us it could happen, I've seen it. In the past 12, 13 years in pastoral ministry, I've watched and worked at churches who hold this tension wisely. Churches where people become Christians, churches where Christians grow to become like Christ. And what strikes me in the churches where I've witnessed this happen is that it is anything but revolutionary. It's simple.

[31:19]
Not simplistic, simple. But they do share some instincts. The churches you see these things happen, they do things that are pretty similar to each other. So, what I want to do for the remainder of our time together is point out three of those instincts, three big principles, and then step back and just think about how they PIECE TOGETHER. NUMBER ONE, here we go. Those churches, transformative church gatherings that affect and impact both believer and non-believer, protect

[31:50]
gospel barriers. Now, I want you to pay attention to what I did not say. I did not say they protect all barriers. There are things that occur in most likely your weekly gathering that need to go. On the platform, not on the platform, however they happen. Confusing language, insider assumptions, church weirdness. Weirdness is not the same as godliness. Often, not always.

[32:23]
Archaic 16th century language done on repetition which has a long centuries for centuries-long track record of producing nominalism that the Christians don't understand but makes them feel comfortable you need to ask yourself very very seriously is this more important than the Bible being read, more important than the Bible being explained, is it more important than the non-believer present understanding or even the believer

[32:54]
understanding? Bad morning tea, bad car parking, announcements that go on and on and on and on. Dear friends, as church leaders of every stripe and type, we should work hard to ensure that what we do throughout the gathering is intelligible to all people present. That means they understand what is going on. But make no mistake, there are some barriers that can never ever ever be touched.

[33:26]
We must never change what God has revealed in His word to us. To do so is anathema. The gospel is referred to in Romans chapter 1 as whose? Whose gospel is it? God's gospel. It ain't ours. It's not ours to change, it's His. But why would you want to do that? I'll tell you why. It's very possible the way that we are most tempted to change the gospel or

[33:56]
soften its edges is actually because we desire to reach the outsiders. The most common example of this that we have in recent history is the seeker sensitive uh movement. Can you put your hand up if you've heard of that before? Has everyone heard of seeker sensitive? Okay. If you haven't, it's sprung forth out of America, late '70s, Bill Hybels, Willow Creek, that kind of area. And the idea was actually a noble one. There's a bunch of barriers that stop people believing, they don't understand, we need to get rid of those so people can believe. However, unfortunately, they didn't stop. Initially, it was okay, the archaic

[34:28]
language, maybe some of the liturgy, whatever. But then, oh, the Old Testament Bible reading, then the long New Testament Bible reading, then all the New Testament Bible reading, then the Christian songs. Oh, I know, let's add in a monster truck rally and a barbecue. That's church in America. Okay, that is what the seeker service movement is. It's a TED Talk with secular music being played. It seems like the most cringe thing ever. What's the tragedy? The tragedy is it does not feed the saint. It leaves them anemic,

[35:00]
desperately in need of fruit, desperately in need of meat. But worse still, the tragedy is it does not serve the seeker. It serves them poison, not fruit. And that is the great irony of diminishing the gospel. We may instinctively think that compromising the gospel in the face of cultural pressure will make us appeal to the outside world and reach more people. But dear friends, the opposite is true. Our very unwillingness to compromise our faith, our very unwillingness

[35:32]
to pander to our culture is the very thing that reaches the lost. It makes us salty. It puts meat on our bones as we don't change what the word says. It's not ours to change. Do you think God was unaware of 2026 wokeness when he wrote the word? He knew. His word is eternal. Now, what does that mean? Well, here's what it means I reckon in practice.

[36:02]
Christianity will not allow us to soften. You can explain sin, but you can't remove it. You can clarify repentance, but you can't replace repentance with personal growth. You can preach judgment with compassion, but you cannot avoid judgment. You can make the Lordship of Christ understandable, but never optional. That doesn't mean doing drive-by shootings on hot topics in society. And like, "Oh, abortion is murder. Pooh. Okay, and anyway, moving on." No, no, no, no. It's being considerate and careful and kind and loving and

[36:34]
biblically minded in the way that we preach, particularly issues you know are difficult in our culture. Um issues pertaining to life, sexuality, gender. Preach it with compassion. For example, if you're going to preach about abortion, be aware that there's people in your congregation most likely who have either had an abortion or been men complicit in them. Christian and non-Christian. So, you preach the text. You preach that it is murder. But you do so by beginning like this. We're going to speak about a topic which I know is incredibly emotional for many

[37:06]
of you for a whole range of reasons, and that is about abortion. Before I say anything else, I want to say to you, particularly if you're in Christ here today, there is nothing you have done that is more powerful than the blood of Christ. You are forgiven in Christ if you have repented and put your trust in him. You are loved by him. But we must not mistake what the Bible says about this issue. And then end it by a call to respond in repentance for those who aren't Christians or again a prayer for those who are. Do you understand? We don't compromise. We're careful and

[37:36]
considerate. The gathering transforms people, dear friends, not by becoming less Christian, but by becoming more clearly Christian, more centered on Christ, more courageous. >> [snorts] >> We preach Christ crucified. And the very word that raises the spiritually dead is the same word that grows the spiritually alive. Maintain your gospel barriers at all costs. And if you're not the senior pastor at

[38:07]
your church, which is the majority of us, and you find him doing it and pandering and compromising, watch out, cuz liberalism always starts with the clergy. That's a warning to all of us. For us to be very careful how we treat the word, but if you're under the word and you you feel like, "Oh my goodness, this is going in a trajectory to rob bell." Okay? Watch out. Call it out. Number two.

[38:37]
So, we want to maintain gospel barriers, but number two, we want to lower social barriers. We never lower the offense of the gospel, but we relentlessly lower unnecessary offense about the gospel. And I want to offer that in our tribe, our context of reformed evangelicals, particularly those engaged in Reach Australia or thinking carefully about church, believe it or not, this is the area we suck at the most. And the reason is because we're people of the word. So, if you're a minister, pastor, preacher here today, let me ask you.

[39:09]
Do you think it's possible you obsess over your sermons? Does your spouse think that? Are you unbearable on sermon writing days or sermon writing week? Why is my wife the only one nodding? I don't understand. We believe in the power of the word, so we rightfully pour our effort and energy into making sure that we preach faithfully, truthfully, that we engage, that we absolutely do that. But we do so without also considering a simultaneous reality.

[39:41]
That for all the people coming on our gathering day, for all the people coming on Sunday, but particularly for non-Christians, I've got I've got a revelation from the Lord for you today. They're not listening. Well, they are listening. But they're not only listening. They are feeling. What do you think some of the emotions are that people, first time coming to church, might be feeling? Shout them out. What do you think? Guilt. Fear.

[40:12]
Huh? What did you say baby? What What say? No, can hear. Embarrassment. Like making you do that? Yeah, it's really good. Thanks, sister. That was great. Embarrassment. What else? Judgement. Uh or so they might be judging and they're feeling that they're being judged. Confusion. Skepticism. I'll offer another one for you. Excitement.

[40:44]
Pretty rare, but they're It's It's there. No, it is. It is there. Now, why maybe they're feeling all those things? There's a limitless list of reasons as to why. So, they are listening to what we say, but what else are they doing? They're looking. They're watching. What are they watching? Everyone, everything. How we sing, how we listen, how we pray, how we talk, how we talk to one another, how we talk to them, how we welcomed.

[41:16]
And whether or not many churches unintentionally make this incredibly difficult by simply not thinking about it. So, we have the welcome space for church clogged with magazines and books and name tags and tables. It's like getting through like Survivor to get through to actually get through. The welcome feels cold. Morning tea is terrifying. Several years ago, I was a minister in Northern Ireland. Anyone from Northern Ireland here? Hey.

[41:48]
Get ready. Okay. So, there I was and Northern Ireland has a deep division Protestant Catholic. And next door neighbors were Catholic. Barry and Bernie. And they Bernie's a woman. And they agreed to come to church. I hadn't considered that our church had a bookstore not run by 10 of those, but that had old school Northern Irish anti-Catholic literature. I don't mean regularly is nothing in my hand I bring, iconic book you've got to get it. I mean IAN PAISLEY, "THE POPE IS THE OF ROME!" BOOM!

[42:19]
AND THERE'S OUR CATHOLIC neighbors walking into the bookstore. Oh! They then sat down in their pew. I thought, "Oh, Bernie, Bernie, here you go." I I went back to the front of church to do something or other and I turned around and I hear a noise. I turn around this true 100% true story. And I look around and there's a 90-year-old member of our church also called Bernie, woman. And she's talking to them. And I walk over and she has her umbrella out poking them and she's saying this. Now, tell me how good this accent is, okay?

[42:50]
"That's my pew." Is it? "That's my pew." "Go on. Shoo! Shoo!" Welcome to Evangelicalism. 1 Corinthians 14, two words that are incredibly important for us to grasp hold of.

[43:20]
Paul says, "The people convicted are convicted by all." Not merely by the preacher. By all. As we gather, the church becomes a witness, the visible reality of the eternal reality. Every believer testifying in every single way possible to the love of God that God is really among you. Soften

[43:51]
the cultural barriers, the social barriers, lower them down. What Make it as warm as possible. That's not liberalism. It's called being nice. It's it It's fine. Finally, I'm out of time. Allow what's next to shape what's now, right now. Allow what's next to shape right now in two ways. One, pragmatically speaking, in your pathway. My dear friends, as you engage with the biggest open door your church

[44:22]
has to both Christian and non-Christian new people, your gathering, which by the way will have far more visitors across a year than your special events will ever have. So, as you engage with people there, let me give you a principle. Triage matters more than friendliness. How are you triaging those people? How are you actually getting their details? What are you doing to follow them up? How are you What's the plan? Do you have a plan? Do you sit down with that list of people

[44:53]
on the Monday, for example, and go, "Oh, yeah, I'm pretty sure they're not a Christian, so they'll have an admission pathway. Okay, pretty sure Yep, we'll get this." What's What's the idea? What are you going to do? What are you doing? I've visited a lot of your churches. YOU'RE DOING NOTHING. OKAY, that's the reality. You're depending on the church family, who's 90% of the visitors are brought by a church member, to just keep doing it. That's a great thing. But, imagine if you could double that impact, triple that impact, more and more. Dear friends, triage beats friendliness.

[45:25]
What we need is clear pathways that ask not that's the proclaim It's not lovely to have you. No, no, we need clear pathways driven by the question of how do we help this person take the next step towards Jesus. And let me illustrate this to you. Um So, you grab hold of it. I want you to imagine right now, just a mental exercise. Imagine that you have twins. Okay? A boy and a girl. The boy is incredibly handsome, smart, funny,

[45:56]
athletic. Um I know that can be hard The girl is She's Yeah, I know that can be hard to get your head around. So, I've searched the internet and found a photo. Okay. Now, kids, that's called a cigarette. Not a vape. A lung lolly. Oh. That's the Sydney 2000 Olympic Games. By the way, that's me. You know that. Sydney 2000 Olympic Games, my parents went all out. They splurged. We had tickets to the European Handball. It was

[46:26]
amazing. Okay? Go the Croats. I'm incredible. That was me. 18 years of age, not a Christian. Not anti, but just not a believer. That's my sister Anna, who works at Reach Australia, Anna Cox. And she was a believer all of her life. I want you to imagine that you're my parents. Weird. Anyway, imagine that. And imagine that David and Anna are 18, one a believer, one not a believer, and they move to a different part of Sydney or Australia. They move to your area.

[46:59]
And Anna has Google tools. It was in 2000, she's Yellow Pages, you know? And she's found your church. And she's told Dave, "Come along." And both Anna and Dave are going to come along this Sunday to your church. Now, just like Paul asked, what would you like them to experience, to hear? How would you like them to be treated? And now, if you can take that wonderful photo down, let me make it more real. I want you to imagine right now the name of the person you love the most in this very world,

[47:29]
whoever it is who is not a believer. Just think of that person right now. Get their name in your head. Who is the person you can think of? You love them. They're not a believer. Outside of Christ, they are going to space spend an eternity in hell. They've visited a different church. How do you want them to be treated? That standard is the standard for every single non-Christian who comes to your church.

[48:02]
Is that reality? Yeah. Come on. We must do better. This is a huge open door for us, brethren. It's massive for us. People turning up and we turn them away. But the churches who do it well, it's so simple. It's doing less better. Not complex, a warm welcome, good day. If you knew here, go over there. It's looking out for new people. It's getting people to say hello, but even if they don't, it's still having an eye over it.

[48:33]
It's having the what's next put into place. Why? Because of the final thing, because the what's next is actually driven All of this is driven by the big what's next. Eternity. Our preaching, our ministry, small group, every bit of our ministry, every bit of what happens on a Sunday is driven by the eternal realities of heaven and hell. The saint is fed, is driven, is spurred on for the joy set before them. The non-believer has eternity in their heart. And as we preach the same gospel,

[49:04]
the Christian is spurred on, is uh rebuked, is pushed forward, and the non-Christian, for some, can be brought under eternal life, can be brought under the deep conviction of their sin and brought to eternal life. So, what are we waiting for? NOTHING. DO IT THIS SUNDAY. It's It's the greatest greatest front door that we have. Difference. Let me pray and then invite up um Andrew. Heavenly Father, thank you for Jesus. Thank you that we are members of his church. Lord, we pray that you would use

[49:36]
us to see people won and see the saints grow. We pray this in Jesus' precious name. Amen. Well, I don't know if you've heard of him before, but ladies and gentlemen, Andrew Heard, please uh put your hands together loudly. He's losing his hearing. So, that'll be really good. >> [applause] >> Good job. Well, given the context and given where we're at, we're doing a little bit differently today, which is a great opportunity to think a little bit more about our services. So, I'm going to do sort of fairly brief thing and I'm hoping we'll get to a

[50:07]
point of a Q&A. So, keep in mind some thoughts you might have. Uh pick up where we've gone to so far. Notice the folks who have attention, it's been on the gatherings. Yesterday, we're just thinking more broadly about transformation of life. Today, we're thinking about the gatherings, the value and importance of our church services, the way God uses them to reach people. And so, Murray's thing last yesterday was uh profound, wasn't it? Just that picture that he painted for us of not just uh a context where the word is preached, but there's a transformative community

[50:38]
of people who each of them captured by the things of Christ, gathered together, the kind of heat and energy that forms around that, the power of it. And all of that sets up a set a situation where uh you're able to see in the whole fullness of what God is doing, an energy that forms to reach outsiders. So, Greg hopefully yesterday took us through the whole thing that your job is not just to preach and pray, though that's the heart, but not the whole. Your job's not just to preach and pray, it's to actually build a whole ecosystem. So, I think we've got the slide up here. Let

[51:09]
me just show you this quickly. Uh what we want to see happen is that uh the depth of the word of God shaping everything that goes on. That's why that line's longer and it's got the arrows going up. We want to see more things happen than just you deliver a preaching, a sermon, and so on, but rather that the church is a captivated by the love of God, that they're in community together, they're serving and on mission. And what happens is that red line. When there's this transformative community that's not just hearing words, but is itself being changed, transformed, formed to the the image of Christ, this ecosystem movement of

[51:41]
people being captivated, captured, spins together, spins out, and spins out to reach more people. It's the shift from the ought evangelism to the want evangelism. That's why transformation matters because therein lies the way in which we can reach this country by having churches that are truly transformed in the way they do what they do. Now, this begs an important question for us as Dave's raised, too. The gathering is so important. It's a theologically loaded event, the church gathering. It's not just a function of

[52:11]
what we do. Uh this is This is what Paul's brought to us. This is God's purpose for us to gather. But it does raise that question, is it just for believers? Is it for outsiders? Dave's hopefully beginning to take us through that kind of thing. It is for believers. We need to recognize that. God's purpose is the church is to gather for the edification of the saints. Uh this is his great purpose for church. Yet, it's a powerful tool for salvation. It's a powerful tool for the winning of

[52:41]
people who are not yet saved. If used rightly. If used wisely. And so to that end, I want to speak just for a few moments and then we'll do a quick Q&A. Uh I want to commend to you a thing that I call worldview preaching. A thing called worldview preaching. Grab your Bibles, go to 2 Corinthians chapter 5. One of the things about people as uh we move around in our world, we we live with a set of assumptions and ways of thinking, uh presuppositions that are

[53:12]
just part of the air that we have. Uh a lot of and we don't actually know that we hold. We just have them. We carry these with us. And the Apostle Paul I find very interesting here in 2 Corinthians chapter 5 um says uh verse 16, "From now on, we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer." What you have here is Paul evidencing a worldview that he once had. When he saw the Lord Jesus in his first uh perhaps um experience of the Lord Jesus before

[53:43]
his his resurrection ascension. What Paul saw was a weak man who was claiming to be something that he wasn't and was crucified. And when he brought a worldly frame set of assumptions presuppositions to looking at the Lord Jesus, he got him wrong. But what happened, of course, on the Damascus road was that his eyes were opened and his whole way of seeing the world was transformed. What appeared weakness became power. What appeared foolishness became God's great wisdom to say Do you see? So, this transformation occurred in the way he views the world.

[54:15]
His whole concept of existence has shifted to see God's world the way God intends it to be. Well, as people come to our churches, what they do is they bring a whole set of presuppositions and assumptions. And what I want to commend to you is the kind of preaching that is for believers, but in such a way that it speaks to the very heart of unbelievers. And the kind of preaching that can do that, I want to suggest you, is the kind of preaching that gets to the presuppositions that people operate

[54:45]
with. The assumptions they carry. Rather than just simply explaining the grammar and the syntax of a passage and engaging with the different commentators that you've argued with through the week in a college and so on, but actually understanding the people you're engaging with, understanding the text and the the assumptions that operate in the passage that you're working with, and addressing them to the presuppositions of the people that come to you. And so, the aim of the scriptures, I want to suggest to you, is to transform the way we see things, that we might no longer see Christ from a worldly point of view,

[55:16]
that we might see him with the proper lens, with the proper assumption. And the aim of preaching is to reshape the way we see reality. And let me show you how this works. Let me give you a quick illustration of Come with me to Galatians chapter 1. Galatians chapter 1, the Apostle Paul writes with great concern, verse, uh, 6, he's astonished that they're deserting the gospel. Uh but when you come down to verse eight, what I want you to notice is there's a considerable amount of motion going on for the Apostle Paul. Even if we or an angel from heaven

[55:47]
should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse. Now think with me, what's the emotion that's going on for Paul there in that verse? Look what he does, he says it again verse nine, "As we have already said, so now I say again, if anyone is preaching to a gospel other than what is accepted, let them be under God's curse." Now what emotion's going on there? Now don't you answer, let me give you what I I understand to be the case. Um but what emotion's happening there? What I want to see people talk about Galatians as the white-hot letter

[56:20]
that comes with all this emotional energy. I think one of the emotions happening for the Apostle Paul is it starts with A and ends in G E R. Anger, very good. Well done. It It's anger. I think the Apostle Paul writes this white-hot letter angry. Now notice that, if that's the emotion that's going on, one of the things you can do is you can preach Galatians chapter one in a surface kind of way and explain the syntax and grammar and so on and you can come to a message that sounds like this. The Apostle Paul is concerned that they're perverting the

[56:51]
gospel, it's possible to get the gospel wrong, we Christians need to make sure we get the gospel right, it's faith alone, grace alone, Christ alone, it's not plus works, Galatians chapter five. If that's the sermon you preach, you've got it right. But how do non-Christians hear that sermon? What they hear is, "Ah, this is one of those churches that's petty, divisive, just caught up on all kinds of arguments and so on." That's what they're hearing, but we're preaching the truth, we're preaching the right expression of it. But if you do this, if you notice that Galatians

[57:23]
chapter one is full of this energy from the Apostle Paul, anger, you can then begin to explore why do people get angry about things? Are there times when anger is legitimate? Now, there are. There are occasions when all of us appreciate that it's an appropriate response to have anger. In fact, to not have anger is an under-reaction when you need to be reacting. What are those occasions? When someone's in grave danger. When someone, perhaps a vulnerable person, is abused maliciously by someone

[57:53]
else. It's right to be angry at that person, yes? And so now we're tapping into the reality of our emotions and how it's appropriate to actually have the right emotions in the right context. What we have here is an apostle who person who's writing out of anger. Why is he writing out of anger? Because he sees that there are vulnerable people in danger of great loss through the malicious actions of others. Now, what is all of that that's going on? What are they in danger of loss? They're in danger of losing

[58:24]
eternity. They're in danger of losing their souls. How would they be in danger of losing their souls? Well, he, this man writing this, believes that they're in danger of losing their very eternal destiny because of the way malicious people are coming and teaching them an appropriate relationship to God, which is the wrong way of relating to God. A way of relating to God based on your own performance and pride. And the Apostle Paul sees in that a great threat to the eternal destiny of

[58:55]
people. That their souls will be lost if they get this wrong. That's why he's emotionally reacting with anger. Now, do you see what you're just now doing? You're engaging in a group of people in a way that speaks directly to the Christian, but also the non-Christian. What you're doing is challenging the presuppositions of the Christian. See, one of the two two of the pre- kind of presuppositions that function for many people is some people come to church going, "There's no such thing as life beyond the grave. This is the only life we have. YOLO. You only live once. Go

[59:26]
for it and make the most of it. That's what lots of people have when they come to church. But a bunch of other people come to church and go, yes, I think there's something after death, but everyone will be okay. It doesn't really As long as you're just a nice person. These are the kind of presuppositions that are functioning. But if you can now bring the Apostle Paul's presuppositions to bear and say, the reason he is engaged emotionally like this is because there is an eternity. This life isn't just it. There's a whole existence to come beyond this one. And he is convinced that there's only

[59:58]
one way to enter that future existence, and it's by the extraordinary gracious gift of a God who loves you so much that he came to die for you and pay for your sins. But if you risk messing with that what God's done for you and come to him in pride and arrogance, you'll be lost forever. Now, if that's what's going on for the Apostle Paul and he sees that that's the mistaken message that's being delivered, can you see why he's so emotionally engaged in this issue?

[1:00:28]
Now do you see where you're landing? You're helping the Christian appreciate that there's a message matters desperately to get it right. But you can now also speak to the heart of the non-Christian and help them appreciate there's more going on in existence. There's a great future that's awaiting them, but there's a way that you need to come to this God that's right and appropriate, that's humbled. You're beginning to preach to both audiences. And what I'm suggesting to you is the church church is for the edification of the believers, but it's possible, get this, it's possible, I

[1:01:00]
think, to preach in a way that engages not only with the believer and genuinely teaches and edifies and encourages the believer, but there's a way to do that in such a way that also captivates and engages the unbeliever. But here's the thing. It's harder to do that. It takes more work to do that. You've got to think harder about the presuppositions of the text, the author, and the people you're engaging with to pull that off.

[1:01:30]
Which then leads you to another thought. What makes people do the harder thing? You're only willing to do the harder thing if you think there's some there's something such so important at stake that you're willing to do the harder thing. What's the What What would motivate you to do the harder thing? If you yourself as a preacher are captivated and are captured by the importance of saving sinners from hell, you'll do the harder thing. Our challenge is we tend towards the easier to preach the sermon that I don't have

[1:02:02]
to think as hard about. We're busy. We've got a lot on. We want to make sure it delivers to the Christian who's there, but we aren't as inclined to do the harder thing, and I think partly because deep down really really we're not that concerned about the unbeliever. But what we're hearing is the church in God's economy is is a place when when many unbelievers are coming. And are more willing to come than we'd recognize they are actually. The latest

[1:02:33]
statistics indicate that 30% of Australians, if they were invited, would come to church. It's an extraordinary statistic. We have people turning up all the time. And it's it's easier to settle with it's for the believer, let me just preach to them. But when we've now got this opportunity with unbelievers gathering in our assemblies, I I we want to urge you to do the harder thing. To think how to be faithful and true to the purpose of church for edification of believers,

[1:03:03]
but to engage in that in a deeper way, in a way that's perhaps richer, but harder. In a way that can engage with the unbeliever when they come in and turn their lives upside down as much as the Christians turned upside down. Worldview preaching is what we want to commend to you. Let me give you a story to end. Um and then we'll throw get these guys up. Um Uh my I grew up in a non-Christian home. I was a was a church-sending home, uh not a church-going home. And I went

[1:03:34]
to church for a short time, but then um uh realized that they were having much more fun down the beach somewhere, so I I quit. Um but the my parents were classic um sort of Aussie battlers. They drank a lot, smoked a lot. Um They were believed in principles, but did what they wanted to do when they It was just a pretty rough, tough kind of family life as we grew up together. Um unconverted. They were horrified when I became not just a Christian, but a Christian who wanted to become a pastor. We had a massive fight about all of that. Um they thought of themselves as

[1:04:05]
Christians until they realized that Christianity was not what they'd understood it to be. We had a lot of fights over these things. Um so I grew up with this family that were were unconverted. My father died last year still unconverted, but my mother at the age of 94 uh miraculously moved. If you've been on this road down here, you'll know there's a place called Estia nursing home down here. Uh due to extraordinary miracle miraculous circumstances, she ended up moving up to this We lived in the northern beaches of Sydney. She moved up to this nursing home. And for the last sort of I don't I can't

[1:04:36]
remember 8 months of her life, she died last year. Um we got to spend a lot of time with her. And um and it was a great privilege to sit with my mother and just talk with her about life and so on. I had an opportunity to care for my aged mother. Um but we also brought her to church. And she came week by week to church. We'd wheel her up the road and wheel her into here and put her up the back there and so on. And uh week by week she sat in church. And after a couple of months, my wife my wonderful wife who's relentless in her evangelism, um she uh she would talk to

[1:05:09]
to my mother about, you know, "How did that go for you today? How was the sermon today? And my mother would always say, he preaches too long, doesn't he? >> [laughter] >> The other thing she'd say is, oh, I wish he'd iron his shirts. But, um >> [laughter] >> Um and Dave, he yells a lot, doesn't he? But, he says a But, she she she would react like this. Anyway, um but after a couple of months of coming to church regularly, uh she said uh Kathy would continue these conversations. She said to to Kathy one

[1:05:39]
day, do you know I'm as close I'm closer than I've ever been. And she said, what is it with these people? They sing. They believe it. They're prayerful. That this is not like the church we thought it was. And she came week in week out and just was starting to be touched by it all. And then a few months after that uh as Kathy took her home to the nursing home, uh I'd preached a particular sermon about the way of salvation and so on. And uh the conversation, I can't

[1:06:11]
remember exactly the details, but Kathy uh said, what was your reaction? And she said something like, I'm convinced of these things. Kathy said, would would you like me to pray for you to become a Christian? And my mother said, I'd like to pray to become a Christian. Oh. So, my mother out loud prayed in the presence of my wife to become a believer. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> [applause] >> Yeah.

[1:06:41]
Now, we knew she was converted because she stops wearing >> [laughter] >> She said sometimes she said, oh god oh I shouldn't say that anymore, should I? You know, you shouldn't have to wear So, it was a kind of a transformation for a 94-year-old. But, the um But, here's the thing. Uh we were at the funeral was a very different funeral. We were able to do it with confidence and hope and joy in in where my mother would be. Um but here's the thing. I have shared the gospel with her for

[1:07:12]
decades. But she came to church and was here regularly. And she was in a context where she was loved. People actually came around her and demonstrated genuine Christian heart and concern for her. And she saw the singing and the prayers and she felt the preaching, all of that kind of thing. And I just I I guess what we're trying to say, brothers and sisters, is that what God has given us in the assembly, the public assembly of God's people

[1:07:44]
gathered together is a powerful is a powerful tool in the spirit's hands to reach this country if we just learn how to do it better by God's spirit. Let me finish there and see but we've got time we haven't got time. If you've got any If you've got a question. You're really going to say no to me? >> No, no, you do one. >> Okay. Okay. I'll take two. All right.

[1:08:15]
Good. >> Does anyone >> Do you want to ask anything? It'll just be me because these two take too long. >> [clears throat] >> Thanks so much, Herdy. Um you've convinced me to be a worldview preacher, but I was just taught intro state quote uh illustrate apply three times three points make sure they have the same letter at

[1:08:46]
the start. Um [laughter] And I don't feel very gifted. I know you are really gifted. Philip Jensen, gifted worldview preacher. Greg Lee, great worldview preacher. How do I get equipped? And how long do I need to preach for? >> How long do you need to preach for? >> Each Sunday, I mean. Like not years. >> [laughter] >> That's 30 years. Yeah, that's right. Um look, the length of preaching is a is it

[1:09:17]
one of those fraught things. Um I I think what we need to learn to do is preach longer to a certain limit. Um but I preaching is an immersive experience. We What we need to We need to be We need to be careful that we're not gaslit by our congregations and we don't fool ourselves. Gaslit by our congregations. What I notice is every Easter there's a discussion and debate on Facebook about

[1:09:47]
how long preachers should go for at Easter time. You know, I normally preach I preach half as long as I normally preach. Normally I preach 8 minutes. I'm going to preach 9 minutes. And I go, "What?" Um and I hear this kind of conversation about very short sermons for the North Shore of Sydney. Now, that's interesting. So, you mean professionals who are leading organizations can't cope with more than 20-minute sermons? There's something going on there. I think what we have is congregations

[1:10:18]
who are gaslighting us about how they really want to get home to lunch. And so, they want sermons to be short and they're telling us it's too long. Now, there's one side of it. The other side of it, of course, is that it's one should you begin to learn like your own voice. And you want to talk longer and longer. So, there's a problem there. Um but I I think we've got to learn to recognize that the preaching experience is an experience. It's not just the delivery of news and information. It's actually the transformation through the immersive experience of spending

[1:10:50]
time in the word together. And so, to skill up in that. What exactly is that time frame? Longer conversation, but there you go. >> We've got one more, Andrew. >> I think you've convinced us that church is transformational and the place that we want to make evangelism possible, but uh often our reaction is just to add more and to do let's put more programs on. But um Dave was telling us to do less better. What would be your top two things you would look to do first?

[1:11:23]
>> To do less better. Dave, yeah, so can I can I get this man? Dave, can you can you give us >> Yeah, so it's Oh, hello. Oh, thanks, Andrew. This is a This is a first. He's invited me up. Um He actually invited me off a few years ago. >> That's enough. >> [laughter] >> So, do less better means so our just take the Sunday gathering for example. The Sunday gathering can be chock-a-block full of So, we do a kids talk, we do an announcement. We we're going to do three in theory, but let's

[1:11:53]
do seven cuz there're all these things on. Um we've got a full explanation of, you know, the men's breakfast blah blah blah blah blah blah and we just put all this information in and then when it comes to programs, we go, "Ah, well, we want to reach this group and that group and this group." But actually, the more information the more things we do, the less we can actually do well. And the more information we give people, the less they listen. So, have multiple streams of information with your church, email, you know, social media platform, protect

[1:12:23]
very, very clearly. And then in your calendar, I will I'll use EV as an example. EV do a a staggeringly small amount of ministries a lot. Okay, so there's a lot of The Evangelistic Course Life that's run here very, very big. It's run six times a year, but they don't run other evangelistic ministries. That is the big thing you're told bring people to. And the same with the growth the maturity in the growth group stuff. So, it's not about, "Hey, here's the different plethora of other ministries that's actually just fix that

[1:12:53]
and focusing on the ones that you think you have invested your time into to achieve the things that you want. Does that make sense? Thank you. Thank you Andrew. Oh my goodness. >> He's taken the mic. He's taken your mic. >> Taken the mic on me. >> [laughter] >> Is that it? >> That's it. Thanks Andrew. Thanks Dave.