Your church may find it easier to avoid talking about money altogether. But Jesus didn’t.

In this episode, Tish sits down with Des Smith, Senior Pastor of Trinity Church Lockleys Adelaide and author of The Cheerful Giver, to explore how churches can move beyond awkward fundraising conversations and cultivate a genuine culture of generosity.

Des shares why generosity is far more than a budget issue, it’s a discipleship issue. Together they unpack why Christians should talk about giving, how to avoid guilt-driven appeals, practical ways to encourage generosity from the front, and how churches can model generosity with their time, talents and resources.

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Transcript:

The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.

00;00;08;11 – 00;00;31;12

Tish 

G’day. I’m Tish from range Australia. Welcome to the One Thing, a podcast designed to give you one solid practical tip for gospel centered ministry every week. Today we’re talking about the joy of generosity and unpacking how we can practically create a culture of joy around generosity in our churches. Realistically, all of our churches and most ministries run on the generosity of God’s people.

00;00;31;14 – 00;00;44;12

Tish 

It can feel clunky to talk about giving, but the Bible doesn’t shy away from it. Instead, it says that it overflows in thanksgiving and praise to God and that we should give cheerfully. I’m joined by Des Smith. It is.

00;00;44;16 – 00;00;46;13

Des 

Hi. How are you going?

00;00;46;15 – 00;00;57;02

Tish 

He’s the author of The Cheerful Giver and senior pastor of Trinity Church of Adelaide. Spot on. Des, before we dive in, can you think of a joyful moment of generosity for you?

00;00;57;04 – 00;01;16;26

Des 

I can. So, I’m 7 or 8 years old. I’m walking down the aisle of the supermarket with my mum in my little country town where I grew up in Tasmania. And I remember seeing these things that are on special, like, I don’t know that muesli bars or whatever. And there was tons of them and they were like half price, a total bargain.

00;01;16;29 – 00;01;32;10

Des 

And I remember my mum only taking two boxes rather than one. And I said to her, why don’t we just buy all of them like they’re just half price? This is a total bargain. Why don’t we get more? And I remember her saying to me, so crystal clear. She said, oh, well, because we want to leave some for the poor people.

00;01;32;16 – 00;01;50;00

Des 

In other words, she was summarizing for a seven year old mind why we wouldn’t just take everything in while we leave some for others. And she wouldn’t. There’s no way she will remember having ever said that, but it’s actually stuck in my mind ever since. And I just thought, what a great example of generosity. And, she was really happy to do it.

00;01;50;01 – 00;01;54;22

Des 

So it was generosity, and it was joyful. So, yeah, one of my earliest memories. In some ways.

00;01;54;24 – 00;02;13;24

Tish 

Yeah. That’s awesome. I have a similar memory from when I was a child, and it was the first time we’d ever been somewhere where you could barter. And so my brother and I had gone out. We were in Thailand, and we came back to mom and dad, and we were so proud of ourselves because we’d managed to haggle buying.

00;02;13;25 – 00;02;35;14

Tish 

I can’t even remember it was that we’d bought. We were like, we managed to haggle to get this thing for half of the price. I got two of them for half of the price of one of them. And we were so proud of ourselves. And mom was like, that’s great. I’m really glad you’ve learned how to haggle, but now you need to go back and pay full price for something because that’s their livelihood, and they need it more than we do.

00;02;35;16 – 00;02;40;26

Tish 

And it was just like a money. Yeah. Makes an impact.

00;02;40;27 – 00;02;41;22

Des 

Yeah. That’s telling on.

00;02;41;22 – 00;02;53;05

Tish 

It. Yeah. Yeah. But yes. Similar childhood learning stories. And can you think of a time where someone else’s generosity, a little similar to that to your mum story has inspired you?

00;02;53;09 – 00;03;15;10

Des 

Yeah. So, that’s obviously a personal one to me in very close time with my mum. Probably one that also strikes me is, I think, the story of John Wesley. So John Wesley famously made a pact with himself as soon as he started earning proper money from his gospel ministry, which he really did, because when he started publishing sermons, his books, they sold like hotcakes.

00;03;15;19 – 00;03;34;28

Des 

He ended up actually being a very wealthy person by the end of his life. But as soon as he was beginning to get traction with this, he said, oh, I’m going to live, for the rest of my life on as much as I do now and everything more that I earn, I’m going to give away. Because he was determined to use that generosity to him to be able to fly that forward.

00;03;34;28 – 00;03;43;16

Des 

And I see I think most of us would find that really challenging, and I certainly do. And I think that’s just a wonderful gospel generosity. So there you go. John Wesley and my mum.

00;03;43;21 – 00;03;45;04

Tish 

Yeah. Two legends.

00;03;45;04 – 00;03;47;02

Des 

Two legends. Yeah.

00;03;47;05 – 00;03;57;09

Tish 

Awesome. And for now, you’ve press play on the one thing when giving is uncomfortable and instead of cheerful in your church.

00;03;57;11 – 00;04;22;07

Tish 

So there’s in Australian churches, there’s an unspoken rule that we don’t talk about giving because of the passage in Matthew six where it says, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, and then told poppy syndrome, I think comes in and reinforces that. Do you think that not talking about generosity in our churches is helpful, or are there some passages that you find useful in acknowledging and inviting generosity in that conversation in your church?

00;04;22;08 – 00;04;47;03

Des 

Yeah. Well, I absolutely think it’s unhelpful not to talk about giving in generosity. Jesus talks about money heaps. In fact, it’s one of his favorite topics. And certainly I think it it’s really important that pastors and people in ministry generally do talk about giving in church. I do hear people’s reservation about that from that passage in Matthew. Not letting people see, you know, your right hand, know what your left hand is doing.

00;04;47;04 – 00;05;06;10

Des 

But I think it’s important to see the context of what Jesus is saying there. He’s talking there in the context of hypocrisy. He doesn’t want people talking about money in a bragging way. He doesn’t mean not talk about it at all. And we know that because in the very next breath he says, pray privately and don’t pray publicly.

00;05;06;12 – 00;05;24;01

Des 

And yet we know that he wants us to pray publicly, because elsewhere in Scripture it commands us to pray publicly. So it can’t be an absolute thing. It must be a heart thing and a conscience thing. And in fact, so therefore that’s that’s not a prohibition on talking about money. And I think it’s really important to talk about money because Jesus does.

00;05;24;03 – 00;05;36;22

Des 

It’s a hot issue for lots of us. We need our hearts opened up to these things. There’s no part of our heart that should be off limits to God. And so it’s really appropriate for us as God’s people to talk about it.

00;05;36;25 – 00;05;42;17

Tish 

And I think as well, one of the go to passages for talking about generosity is two Corinthians eight and nine.

00;05;42;18 – 00;06;04;15

Des 

Two Corinthians eight and nine is gold. And we’ll probably talk about that a little bit later. But as well. But I think another one less known is one Chronicles 29. Put that in your toolkit. David is busy fundraising for the building of the temple and he talks about, what he’s given. He talks about what his leadership team have given.

00;06;04;21 – 00;06;20;28

Des 

He asks the Israelites to give. They all give really generously. The thing I love about it is his concluding speech where he says he prays to God. He says, thank you so much for the generosity of all of your people. But you know what? All of this actually belongs to you anyway. So we’re not actually doing you any favors.

00;06;20;28 – 00;06;40;15

Des 

This is actually all your money already, and we can only do this because you’ve been so generous to us. And I think that’s that’s where we’ve always got to land. Generosity is in the fact that I don’t actually own anything. God’s given it to me always. And so we’ve got to keep going back to a generous God if we’re going to be wanting to be generous people.

00;06;40;17 – 00;06;41;07

Des 

00;06;41;10 – 00;06;51;11

Tish 

And I mean, you’ve already sort of talked a little bit about this, but do you have more you want to expand on, on why you think it’s important for us to open up the topic of generosity for Christians and in our churches?

00;06;51;12 – 00;07;11;21

Des 

Yeah, totally. So, I mean, I think I’d say in no particular order. Well, this one is in order. If God is generous, and has been generous to us, that should make us generous. And that should make us generous for two reasons. The first is we will just be grateful for everything he’s given us. Every breath we take, every meal we eat.

00;07;11;23 – 00;07;37;13

Des 

That’s all from him. Why on earth wouldn’t I want to give to other people just like he has? I’ll be so grateful for what I’ve been given. But secondly, if we think that part of the Christian life is being transformed more and more into the image of Jesus, who is himself, the image of God. If I’m being made to look more like God, and God is generous, that must mean maybe coming generous, like I can’t possibly follow Jesus and not be generous like Jesus.

00;07;37;16 – 00;08;02;24

Des 

That’s just an essential part of the Christian life. So I think that’s a really important thing to be getting to. I do also think it’s important to talk about money, because I think it is actually one of the chief counterfeit gods for the human heart. So one of the chief competitors for God’s affections is money. That’s why Jesus says you can’t serve both God and money.

00;08;02;27 – 00;08;11;18

Des 

And so we need to speak into that war zone and start firing back at that, because it’s a it’s a really life issue for lots of people. And so we’ve totally got to talk about money.

00;08;12;22 – 00;08;30;00

Tish 

And I think as well, the world talks about money all the time. Yeah. It’s everywhere. And one of the things that I often say when I’m talking to people about it is if we’re not being discipled by the word, we’re being discipled by the world. Yeah. And the world is screaming. Yeah. Money.

00;08;30;04 – 00;08;45;16

Des 

Yeah. And the world gets much more time with our people than we do as pastors. So, you know, we’ve got 90 minutes on a Sunday and the small group and the world gets all the other airtime. So, yeah, absolutely. That’s really important to do.

00;08;45;19 – 00;08;52;18

Tish 

And what do you think is some of the helpful ways for us to talk about generosity in our church? So when you do it in your church, what does it look like?

00;08;52;22 – 00;09;14;04

Des 

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think, I think first of all, yet again, always grounding it in the generosity of God, I’m going to keep banging on about that because I think that’s just so important. Always based in the generosity of God. I think it’s important to avoid the temptation to guilt people into giving. You were talking before about two Corinthians eight nine, and I said I’d mention it later.

00;09;14;25 – 00;09;34;14

Des 

It’s really interesting. It’s easily the most concentrated part of Scripture which talks about giving two whole chapters. And yet it’s interesting. I think there’s only one imperative verb in the whole section. That is, he does say, I want you to excel in the grace of giving. That’s in chapter eight, but the rest of it is just leading by example.

00;09;34;16 – 00;09;57;09

Des 

So on the one hand, he does want them to give, but he doesn’t want to guilt them into doing it. And I think that’s because ultimately that would defeat the purpose, because yes, he wants the money for good gospel purpose, but what he wants even more is for them to be generous people. He actually wants generous people because that gives glory to God.

00;09;57;22 – 00;10;12;17

Des 

And then the giving is like a bonus from that. And I think we really want to share that with people. We want to be really clear with them. Yes. We’re asking you for money, but it’s not for the money because we actually think this is part of discipleship. We actually think this will be good for you. Jesus actually says it’s better to give than to receive.

00;10;12;24 – 00;10;36;22

Des 

This is going to be more fun, not just more fun, but that’s part of it. And so I think that’s really important. So I think not compelling I think sharing stories, of generous people. You see that in two Corinthians as well. He gives the example of the Macedonian churches. He gives the example of Jesus. So that the Corinthians can compare themselves to those people, not in a guilt tripping way.

00;10;36;25 – 00;10;53;16

Des 

Oh, wow. They’re really generous. I suppose. A bit of digging my pockets, but more of a kind of lifting their vision. Wow, these these people have done this. Maybe I could be like that. So I think that’s really helpful. I think being direct, don’t pretend that you’re not going to talk about money. People know what they can sniff at a mile away.

00;10;53;16 – 00;11;09;16

Des 

If you try and hard at. Just be clear. And I think finally I’d say show the results of giving talk about what they’re giving achieves, because I think that’s really motivating as well. So they go there’s I think five ways that I think it’s helpful to talk about church, about money in church.

00;11;09;29 – 00;11;21;08

Tish 

And I think setting the vision and being clear where your money’s being used. Yeah. Not just reporting back, but be clear upfront. What’s it for? Yeah. Why is it important? Where is it going? All those sorts.

00;11;21;09 – 00;11;47;00

Des 

Yeah, absolutely. So every time a new member at church joins church, they kind of sign on the dotted line. One of the things we give them is some information about giving. And we say, on the one hand, look, all other things being equal, if you can, we’d love you to give. And we expect members to give, but we also give them a quite detailed booklet which gives them some of the biblical basis for giving how they can give, but actually also a breakdown of where their money goes.

00;11;47;02 – 00;11;57;28

Des 

And also the invitation that if they want to look in great detail at our books, they are very welcome to, they can come and have a look at our accounts. And they are they are more or less open because we want to be totally open with that stuff. Yeah.

00;11;57;29 – 00;12;09;28

Tish 

Yeah. I think that’s really helpful, that transparency and trustworthiness. Yeah. Especially if you’ve got people coming from churches where they haven’t necessarily been open about their books and oh, giving. I think that’s so important.

00;12;09;28 – 00;12;11;26

Des 

Yeah. Totally agree. Totally agree.

00;12;11;29 – 00;12;24;16

Tish 

Oh that’s good. Thanks, Debs. But generosity isn’t just about money. What do you think it looks like for churches to have a culture of generosity wider than money? What are some examples you might have seen in your church?

00;12;24;17 – 00;12;25;23

Des 

Yeah. Yes.

00;12;25;23 – 00;12;26;26

Tish 

You might need to encourage that.

00;12;27;01 – 00;12;55;20

Des 

Absolutely. I mean, there’s so many ways we can be generous, and it’s not just with our money. I think first and foremost, I think we want to be people who are yes, I can help you in our attitude rather than our first response being self-protection, a kind of a this far, no further attitude, you know, you know, those kind of people sometimes where you sort of you ask them for help and they go like, maybe or not can’t possibly do that because I’ve got boundaries.

00;12;55;22 – 00;13;11;24

Des 

Now it’s important to keep boundaries. But I do think you want a posture of, oh, I would love to help you. And I’m, I’m not delighted that I can’t. So I think that’s the first thing we want to be in all the kind of things that we do. But of course, there are ways that we can do it.

00;13;11;25 – 00;13;44;16

Des 

I mean, there are people in our church who are just, for lots of reasons, don’t have money. But they can help with their time. They can help with their talents, their practical help, you know, mowing lawns for people and kind of helping out in practical need. Yeah, there’s heaps of different ways that people can help. And I think but again, it comes from that base level attitude of I want to help, not, I don’t want to help if I have to, which, of course, always comes down to just if you’ve if you’ve met Jesus like, that’s infectious, right muck, you are going to want to help because he’s been so helpful to

00;13;44;16 – 00;13;44;22

Des 

us.

00;13;45;10 – 00;14;01;29

Tish 

And I think part of that is thankfulness, right? It’s like when people have been helpful to you, you’re so thankful to them, and it’s contagious. Yeah. And it’s like you want to well, I want to be helpful too, and I I’m thankful for you. And so I’m going to keep giving and sowing into one another. And yeah, I think that.

00;14;02;00 – 00;14;03;06

Des 

It’s a virtuous cycle.

00;14;03;08 – 00;14;19;13

Tish 

Yes. And so we’ve talked a bit about some of the, some of the things we can do for how we get to a culture of generosity. Do you have any other thoughts on cultivating a culture of generosity in your church?

00;14;19;14 – 00;14;40;06

Des 

Yeah. So I think there are obvious things you can do. So you could do a series on giving, like if you’re a pastor or you’re in a teaching position. So remember we did that a few years ago. We did a three week series on giving. Doesn’t have to be three weeks. I know there’s another church in our network of churches which is doing a thing called the Generosity Project, which is in their small groups, which goes for longer.

00;14;40;10 – 00;15;15;19

Des 

So you can do that kind of detailed teaching. I think otherwise you can do it. You can obviously mention things from up the front. I don’t think general giving announcements are always that particularly motivating, but I do think it’s helpful over and above the weekly or monthly, you know, remember to give. Or if you’re not yet giving, please consider a thing is maybe four times a year to have a slightly longer section where you are getting into a bit of scripture, like you could work through two Corinthians eight nine over three years that way, just in five minute sections, and that might be a helpful way of doing that kind of thing.

00;15;15;22 – 00;15;40;26

Des 

I think sharing good news stories of generosity and actually, showing people from up the front, this is the impact the generosity had on me. I was nervous about it, but I took the plunge and I saw this. This in this benefit I think is really helpful. So I think those kinds of things, teaching from the scriptures, but actually also giving members at church an opportunity to share their stories of God’s generosity to them and how they’ve paid it forward.

00;15;40;29 – 00;15;41;28

Des 

Yeah.

00;15;42;00 – 00;15;46;10

Tish 

And I think another thing very basic is just make it really easy and accessible.

00;15;46;10 – 00;15;46;26

Des 

Yeah.

00;15;46;27 – 00;16;02;07

Tish 

And like this is how you do it, whether that’s like online for your church in terms of giving money or whether it’s these are the ways you can serve a church. Yeah. Like I just think, yeah, make it easy.

00;16;02;07 – 00;16;15;16

Des 

Yeah, yeah. The last thing you want is someone who’s actually convinced they want to give in any way, financially or in help, but just isn’t told how to do it. And if they can just be given a one step process rather than a four step process, they’ll be able to use that gift.

00;16;15;18 – 00;16;27;14

Tish 

So there’s this is the one thing. So what is the one thing that you want people to know or practice doing in order to help them cultivate an attitude of joyful generosity? At church.

00;16;27;21 – 00;16;51;06

Des 

I want us to continue to remind ourselves of how flabbergasting, generous God has been to us in every single thing, and to then ask themselves how could I not be generous to others in the light of God’s generosity to me? Tell you, I really practical way that you can do it is if you haven’t already done it this year, is you can actually set yourself.

00;16;51;07 – 00;17;15;24

Des 

You can look through your budget, and you can give yourself a giving target for this year. So you can say, hey, what’s our combined income for this year? Or if you’re married or if you single just your income and then go, what’s a percentage that I think represents generosity for me in my situation. And then this comes the really fun bit is actually going right.

00;17;15;27 – 00;17;33;12

Des 

Who are the different people that I can give to, and how can I carve that up and then put that in your calendar or your to do list or whatever, and make sure you actually do that. So I reckon that is actually so planning is actually really key. But that is one thing you could do this week if you haven’t done it already, is work out how much you’re earning this year before tax.

00;17;33;14 – 00;17;41;08

Des 

Work out a percentage that you think is generous for you, and then commit to spending that money in generosity this year.

00;17;41;11 – 00;17;42;13

Tish 

And pray about it.

00;17;42;15 – 00;17;46;09

Des 

And pray about it. Yeah, yeah, that’s a great thing. Yeah. Good reminder.

00;17;46;09 – 00;17;52;14

Tish 

Yeah. And let’s go another one. How would you do that as a church. So that’s if you’re an individual.

00;17;52;20 – 00;17;53;06

Des 

Yes.

00;17;53;07 – 00;17;58;02

Tish 

If you’re a treasurer or a senior minister, how do you do that as a church.

00;17;58;04 – 00;18;00;07

Des 

As in how do you be generous to other people like that.

00;18;00;08 – 00;18;05;21

Tish 

Yeah. And how to church, sit down and wrestle. I mean, obviously there’s lots of people involved. Yes, yes, yes.

00;18;05;28 – 00;18;34;14

Des 

Well, I think churches take different approaches to this. Sometimes they put giving to other ministries in their budget. Other times they say we actually want to encourage individuals to give that. But if you’re a church that has decided, look, we’re going to put this in our budget, I think you do exactly the same thing. You go like, what’s what looks like generosity for us and then maybe nudge it even that little bit further, because I think that’s really helpful, that sort of stretching thing, like doing a couple of extra reps at the gym.

00;18;34;22 – 00;19;05;07

Des 

Not that I’ve ever been to a gym in my life. I think you can do that. And I think if you’re the church which says no, no, no, the way we’re going to give to other things is by encouraging our people to do that is to actually work out okay. How are we going to think about our partner ministries, mission agencies or whatever, not just as a not just as a nuisance who want to take up ten minutes of service while we want to get on with other things to actually go, how are we really going to give, you know, when the missionary comes to speak and they want to pitch in,

00;19;05;10 – 00;19;22;11

Des 

or when compassion comes to set up the stand and really how we how are we going to set them up for success rather than see them as just a, like a nuisance in our business as usual? Think of church. How can we actually really help them and partner with them in that and give them like, really top billing?

00;19;22;13 – 00;19;23;16

Tish 

00;19;23;18 – 00;19;24;00

Des 

There you go.

00;19;24;04 – 00;19;27;25

Tish 

Yeah, great. Go on. Have you got any examples from how you’ve done it?

00;19;28;10 – 00;19;49;24

Des 

I think one way I’ve done it is I think I’ve actually become much more generous, and positive hearted towards saying mission agencies or whatever, when they come and speak to us. Whereas I think in the past I’ve kind of gone, oh, man, you just want to take up this time, and I just want to get on with all these other things to actually go, no, no, no, we actually really want to support you.

00;19;49;27 – 00;20;05;03

Des 

And so no, no, we’re actually going to really bend over backwards to make sure you get really good inverted commas, time and really good time with people afterwards because, you know, you only get so much time here. So I think I’ve actually I’ve totally given them people much more time in church to talk about that. And much more better leader.

00;20;05;08 – 00;20;21;15

Des 

These people are coming this week. Follow up emails. Hey, look, if you’d like to find out more about compassion, compassion is one of our mission partners, you know, would you like to do this? You know, last week, as a result of that, you know, three people sign up for sponsor kids, you know, go us. But, you know, it’s not too late if you want to get another one.

00;20;21;20 – 00;20;25;09

Des 

So just probably more meaningful partnership like that, I reckon. Yeah.

00;20;25;12 – 00;20;31;05

Tish 

That’s awesome. Steve, can I share a story as well from one of the churches in the region network?

00;20;31;05 – 00;20;32;05

Des 

Do it.

00;20;33;04 – 00;20;58;25

Tish 

So one of the things that obviously church plants struggle with when they first starting out is figuring out how to do mission partnerships and how to have giving away budget, because they’re usually pretty strapped for cash at the beginning. And so one of the plants that I’ve spoken to, he said that generosity was one of their, values that they wanted to build in from go as a church.

00;20;58;27 – 00;21;16;15

Tish 

And so and he said they wanted to sow back into the radius, really network. So the first mission partner they set up was Reach Australia. And so he said to his church, this is what we’re doing. The plan is we want to be generous. We don’t have a lot of budget to play with, but we’re going to give 1% to reach.

00;21;16;18 – 00;21;27;01

Tish 

And as a goal we’re going to increase 1% each year. How much we give away. And I can’t remember exactly. I think they were going for 15% of their budget.

00;21;27;03 – 00;21;27;16

Des 

Yeah, right.

00;21;27;16 – 00;21;41;06

Tish 

They were giving away and each year they increase it by 1%. But he puts it to his church like this year we’re going to increase. Yeah. What we’re giving away by 1% this is what it means. This is where I’m thinking. Yeah. And so the churches on that growing generosity journey.

00;21;41;06 – 00;21;41;26

Des 

Yeah, yeah.

00;21;41;27 – 00;21;43;16

Tish 

I just love that. That’s great. That’s awesome.

00;21;43;17 – 00;21;44;10

Des 

And so upfront.

00;21;44;14 – 00;21;48;08

Tish 

So upfront. Yeah. Yeah. And they’re all excited about it as a church.

00;21;48;08 – 00;21;53;03

Des 

Yeah. And a and a stretch mentality. Like how can we be even more generous.

00;21;53;06 – 00;21;55;02

Tish 

Yeah I just think they’re so cool.

00;21;55;02 – 00;21;55;18

Des 

Yeah. Very good.

00;21;55;18 – 00;22;16;28

Tish 

Yeah. So good. Very good stories. All right. Let’s have a look at what’s in the toolbox. Des, we’ve got your article on generosity which is linked in the show notes. We also have your book, The Cheerful Giver, which is a great little read. Then there’s the Journey of generosity, which you’ll find linked as well. And that’s useful to run as a series of Bible studies or a workshop.

00;22;16;28 – 00;22;42;12

Tish 

If you want help with that, you can always reach out to, some of the team and we’ll help you out. And there’s the Generosity Project, which is another book and online resource, which is great as Bible studies. I hope you can talk about this one as a staff team, maybe even share it with some of your congregation and think again about what generosity looks like for you as a church.

00;22;42;15 – 00;22;49;15

Tish 

I’m Tish. I look after generosity in prayer for Reach Australia. Let’s chat some. Some.