At Kellyville Anglican in Sydney, newcomers sit down with the senior pastor.
Pete Hughes talks with Dave Keun about “Newish”, a conversation designed to help newcomers understand the church, ask questions, and take their next step.
Dave explains how it fits into Kellyville’s wider welcoming pathway, the importance of newcomer triage, and why he believes this is something worth personally owning as a senior pastor.
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Welcoming In Action: Live Video from Kellyville Anglican Church | Ep 389
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Transcript:
The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
00:00:08:08 – 00:00:34:15
Pete Hughes
did I? I’ll take cues. And welcome to the one thing. It’s a podcast designed to give you one solid practical tip for gospel centered ministry. And the one thing is brought to you by Reach Australia. We long to see thousands of healthy, evangelistic and multiplying churches all over Australia. Now, over the last little while, we have really dug into how do you help newcomers actually come and connect and be disciple connected, serving, growing, all of that sort of thing as part of the body?
00:00:34:17 – 00:00:42:06
Pete Hughes
And often the newcomer pathway can be a bit vague. So we’re going to be talking today with Declan. Welcome, Dave.
00:00:42:07 – 00:00:43:09
Dave Kuen
Hey, Pete. Nice to be.
00:00:43:09 – 00:00:57:06
Pete Hughes
Here. Dave is the senior minister of a Kellyville Anglican church, which also happens to be my church. So, yes, this is, here I am talking about a senior pastor. Okay, Dave, what’s got you excited at the moment before we get into the podcast?
00:00:57:08 – 00:01:18:09
Dave Kuen
Yeah, we were just talking before this played about, the book of Revelation. Yes. And we’re preaching that in term three. So I’ve just been, you know, deep diving, into the first, sort of seven chapters. And it’s such a good book. It is, it’s such a good book, and it’s not the one thing on, you know, the book of revelation, but.
00:01:18:11 – 00:01:20:21
Pete Hughes
You know what? I forget what we’re talking about. We’re just going to revelation.
00:01:20:21 – 00:01:24:01
Dave Kuen
That’d be great. If you just get to preach revelation, you should be.
00:01:24:03 – 00:01:24:19
Pete Hughes
Know I know, I.
00:01:24:19 – 00:01:26:02
Dave Kuen
Know. Good I know.
00:01:26:02 – 00:01:38:18
Pete Hughes
John Calvin said, I’m not going to write a commentary on because I don’t understand it. But yeah, for visual people like me, I love it. I just think it’s great. And it’s just, you know, there’s what you see, there’s what you hear, and you’ve got to put those together. Oh, it’s just.
00:01:38:21 – 00:01:39:07
Dave Kuen
Yeah.
00:01:39:07 – 00:01:39:19
Pete Hughes
Awesome.
00:01:39:19 – 00:01:41:14
Dave Kuen
Also, it’s such a good book. Loving it.
00:01:41:17 – 00:01:59:03
Pete Hughes
Cool. All right. But we, going to be talking about, the are we talking about you come a pathway particularly something that you’ve done which is a thing called newish. But, let’s get into today’s podcast for now. You’ve a press play for another episode of The One thing pushing back on passive pathways.
00:02:02:05 – 00:02:05:13
Pete Hughes
All right, Dave, I’m I’m just going to go a little off script.
00:02:05:13 – 00:02:13:18
Pete Hughes
Heath. Just what exactly is newish? Because newish isn’t the, it’s not the new, of course, because that’s together.
00:02:13:20 – 00:02:36:22
Dave Kuen
Correct. What’s newish so newish is, 10 to 15 minutes, sitting down with me and we’re really trying to get the big picture to Kellyville, you know, the 30,000 view foot, not a foot view of us as a church. And what are you going to do in that short space of time? What do you want to communicate?
00:02:37:00 – 00:02:56:06
Dave Kuen
And so we do it as a little bit of a way to communicate. That’s at a high level vision. But I’m also there with pathway in mind, and I’m trying to figure out who needs to go where, because they’re not trying to figure that out. I am, and I’m trying to say, hey, you should think about doing this.
00:02:56:06 – 00:02:58:08
Dave Kuen
So you should think about heading in this direction.
00:02:58:08 – 00:03:16:01
Pete Hughes
So in some ways it’s also like it’s part of it is giving the vision of the church. Like if you’re joining this church, this is what you’re buying into. Yeah. But it’s also a triage moment. Oh absolutely. Does this people this this person actually need to hear the gospel more clearly because they don’t they may call themselves Christian, but they’ve just not quite understood the gospel just yet.
00:03:16:04 – 00:03:31:23
Pete Hughes
Yep. Or is this someone that we just need to get into it together and we need to move them through? Thanks. Yeah. How important is it that you do it as the senior pastor? Or is this something that you could pass on? Or is it the fact that you’re a senior pastor? That’s actually a really important moment?
00:03:32:01 – 00:03:49:14
Dave Kuen
Yeah. I mean, we we sort of plug it is a little bit of a carrot to come along, you know, come and sit down with a senior pastor, and get to meet him. And I try and make it as warm as I possibly can, to sort of, you know, get to know them and, and build start to build those relationships.
00:03:49:16 – 00:04:14:18
Dave Kuen
But I actually think it’s pretty important the senior pastor does it, in terms of owning and communicating the vision, I think it’s one of the, the things that the senior pastor needs to own and hearing it from them. And, you know, part of it is each time I do it, it’s a little bit of my heart on a plate to say, this is what I’d love God to see happen here, you know, with his church in this place at this time.
00:04:14:20 – 00:04:17:12
Dave Kuen
And so, yeah, I do think it’s important the senior pastor does it.
00:04:17:14 – 00:04:35:11
Pete Hughes
Because we’re a growing church and potentially speaking, this could be the the only conversation I have with you, at least in 12 months, because unless there’s some major thing that goes on, when, when they move from newish to other parts of the pathway, that’s how the staff that’s being involved. And then they get into a small group that’s of thing.
00:04:35:13 – 00:04:40:14
Pete Hughes
So they’re actually not that this is the only personal conversation. That’s that’s an important thing I think.
00:04:40:14 – 00:04:49:18
Dave Kuen
Yeah. For them to know I think it’s I think I think that’s important. You know, we might cross paths on my same as they walk in as being, although, you know.
00:04:49:20 – 00:04:59:22
Pete Hughes
It’s hard as real as I might. You sound like, well, can I just sit in my office and just wait for the problems to come? That’s not the way you do things, but I’m just saying potentially speaking, that could be okay.
00:05:00:02 – 00:05:03:04
Dave Kuen
I guess that’s that. That is true. Yeah, that is true. Yes.
00:05:03:04 – 00:05:18:01
Pete Hughes
All right. Let’s let’s go back a little bit and do that 30,000ft view of things. What in terms of the actual the whole, pathway that you’ve got in mind as people are coming in, what are some of the convictions that you’ve got that, that sort of, underneath that newcomer pathway?
00:05:18:03 – 00:05:45:03
Dave Kuen
Yeah. So the convictions really, we’re trying to build is, that we want to be a place where, you can be known, and, you can start to sort of feel like this, this this is your church. And it’s got to start from, some of those conviction pieces, and we, we really want to be transparent.
00:05:45:03 – 00:06:01:16
Dave Kuen
We want to get people to understand who we are from that sort of from the high level through to the low level. But it needs to start from that high level. And when people come to new ish, the conviction is, can leave us a good place to come to church. We want you to come to church.
00:06:01:16 – 00:06:22:11
Dave Kuen
You we’re hungry for you to hook in, to say, you be fed from God’s word. But it’s not passive being. It’s not like you just sit there and sort of, you know, lean back in your chair and just sort of hang out like it’s a time to set those expectations and say, you know, this is who we want you to be, but we actually think that’s a really good thing.
00:06:22:13 – 00:06:29:11
Dave Kuen
And so, yeah. So there’s some of the sort of broader convictions that sit underneath. Newish.
00:06:29:15 – 00:06:40:05
Pete Hughes
Yeah. And you sometimes talk about swimming between the flags as part of that kind of thing. What does that mean? Well, apart from, you know, when you go to the beach. Yeah. But metaphorically. What are you talking about?
00:06:40:05 – 00:06:57:00
Dave Kuen
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, we do use this metaphor as swimming. Swimming between the flags. Because when you go to the beach, it’s the safest place to swim. Lifeguards are looking after you. You know, if you go outside the the flags, you know, you’ll be looked out and you know, and rescued, hopefully. And it’s the same for church.
00:06:57:00 – 00:07:22:23
Dave Kuen
And what does it look like to swim between the flags? And we sort of lay down for expectations right up front. And again, this is about culture setting for us. We’re saying, in a very short way without going into lots of detail, this is sort of what this church is about. And the for expectations are turn up to church weekly, come to your congregation and, you know, you might not know which one that is yet.
00:07:22:23 – 00:07:40:09
Dave Kuen
That’s perfectly okay. Come along. Check them out. Which one do you want to land in. But commit to come and weekly and you know the importance of the weekly gathering. Secondly, be part of a small group. And that small group to start with might be life. And we talk a lot about that as that pathway.
00:07:40:11 – 00:07:44:12
Pete Hughes
And life being the evangelistic way. That’s that’s correct. Just be typically.
00:07:44:14 – 00:08:08:15
Dave Kuen
And then thirdly, join a serving team, because the importance of doing things around teams for discipleship, care, investment and lastly give financially, we do that right up front because, we again want to set the coach. You’re going to come him. The expectation is that you give and that’s a good thing. But not asking to give now it’s when you’re here and you said, okay, but this is all that, you know, that the sort of future disciple that you’d like to see.
00:08:08:20 – 00:08:24:05
Dave Kuen
We lay down that foundation. We said, swim between the flags. If you do those things, we will love you so well, you know, it was not conditional, but it’s how, you know, you experience church and, and have those sorts of, good times and, you know.
00:08:24:07 – 00:08:40:02
Pete Hughes
Yeah, it’s setting up the expectation in there of the relationship of saying, okay, if you’re here, this is what you can expect from us. This is what we can expect from you. I think that’s great. Those four things are come to church, join a small group, join a serving team, give financially you’re doing that right up front. So they’re actually knowing.
00:08:40:05 – 00:08:51:11
Pete Hughes
Yeah. That’s what, we’re expecting. Yeah. Now they were also how many would normally be in a newish group because they were able to ask you questions as well because it’s not a big, big group. It’s.
00:08:51:11 – 00:09:09:19
Dave Kuen
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it varies. You know, I did newish a couple of months ago just with one guy. Right. And that was brilliant and beautiful because I actually got to hear his story. And that’s what I start doing. Start with my space. It might tell me about you. What’s what’s what you hear? Like, I’ve seen him at church for 12 months.
00:09:09:19 – 00:09:25:06
Dave Kuen
Really? And he just came out to me say, click on renew ish. I’m like, yeah, man. Of course. Remind me of your name again. And, and I was glad to hear his story, but I’ve also done it with, you know, 15, 20 people in the room and. Oh, yeah. Oh, I stuff for questions at the end.
00:09:25:08 – 00:09:25:17
Dave Kuen
What sort of.
00:09:25:17 – 00:09:27:07
Pete Hughes
Questions you get?
00:09:27:09 – 00:09:53:00
Dave Kuen
It can vary between, you know, tough theological sort of questions, like, what’s this church’s view on X, Y, and Z through to, you know, how do I be a part of a small group? You know, what congregation do you think I should go to? Oh. All sorts, you know, and always try to answer them.
00:09:53:02 – 00:09:59:14
Dave Kuen
And often when I ask for questions, people don’t want to ask a question. That’s one of my biggest statement.
00:09:59:16 – 00:10:00:05
Pete Hughes
Because I do.
00:10:00:08 – 00:10:17:13
Dave Kuen
Yeah, I just I they, they tell me that their why they here like oh we’re here because of this this and this or I’ve had this bad experience over here and I’m, I’m starting again and again. They’re all really helpful to him to sort of understand why people are here and their spiritual condition.
00:10:17:15 – 00:10:33:19
Pete Hughes
And, and just to be clear, in case you’ve you’ve missed it, it’s really this is not a big long thing. This is basically them sitting down with you for 15 minutes after the service. We do it. Yeah. Straight off the service, 15 minutes. Sit down. You kind of give them a picture. This is what the church is doing.
00:10:33:20 – 00:10:38:03
Pete Hughes
Here’s what we’re expecting from you. Yeah. What are your questions? Yeah, yeah.
00:10:38:03 – 00:10:58:14
Dave Kuen
So we do an after every service, so I 30, ten, 30 and six, we have a non-English speaking service at 330 that, we’ve just sort of, that’s come to be with us over the last 5 to 12 months. And I’m encouraging the pastor that to say you should do it when I say we do it first Sunday of every month, any new person communicate it and say, come along and hang out with me.
00:10:58:14 – 00:11:00:18
Dave Kuen
I’ll tell you where we go and and what that looks like.
00:11:00:18 – 00:11:08:18
Pete Hughes
Yeah. So again, not every week. Not of every. Yeah. But. So how would someone find out about new ish. Like how does that work.
00:11:08:21 – 00:11:29:11
Dave Kuen
Yeah. So, it is announced every single week. You know, when, when Pete Service leaves, you give us the new spiel. And and and every now and then I get a little grumble from our regular people, like, why do we have to new ish again? But but you forget quickly what it’s like to be a first timer in church.
00:11:29:11 – 00:11:29:19
Dave Kuen
Yeah.
00:11:29:20 – 00:11:43:20
Pete Hughes
No, I say, I found it really helpful because when I’m meeting new people, one of the questions I’ve got is I’ve. You been in your shed? Like, when are you ready to do that? Yeah. And it just kind of helps me help them in the pathway. So as long as I keep hearing it.
00:11:44:00 – 00:12:05:03
Dave Kuen
Because it’s because it’s so well known now amongst our own people, I think lots of people have that experience as well, including obviously, our welcoming teams, you know, and so, we, we sort of as we have those conversations, I’m saying the welcoming terms, don’t forget news today or sometimes they’re telling me I’ve got this new issue today and you’ve got three people, four people in your office waiting for you.
00:12:05:03 – 00:12:23:19
Dave Kuen
Yeah. And so, yeah, so we, we push it pretty hard as the first step come along to this even if it’s your first week, you didn’t think you’d going to go just come along and, you know, it’s ten, 15 minutes. So that shortness I think really helps people to engage with it.
00:12:23:21 – 00:12:39:09
Pete Hughes
How quickly do people go to the new ish like like it if week one is they their first week in, are they usually sitting for a couple of weeks before they’re ready to do this? Or what? Firstly, how often? What’s the timeline that you’ve seen. Yeah. And what’s the timeline you would like.
00:12:39:12 – 00:12:39:22
Dave Kuen
Yeah.
00:12:39:22 – 00:12:41:05
Pete Hughes
Because they they might be too, but they.
00:12:41:08 – 00:13:03:22
Dave Kuen
Yeah for sure. Look I think typically for most people, it’s, it’s a couple of weeks because we do first Sunday of the month, if they arrive week 2 or 3 and they’re like, I’d really like to go. And I’d feel that out, it does potentially get them along for a second time. But we do occasionally get people this is my first, first time here.
00:13:03:22 – 00:13:09:23
Dave Kuen
I’m like, yeah, you should come and hang with me. What? What more what more do you want out of life to come hang with me?
00:13:10:00 – 00:13:15:04
Pete Hughes
Got any excuse to hang with di? Or why would you know what’s wrong with you?
00:13:15:06 – 00:13:38:01
Dave Kuen
And but again, like I said, the guy that I did, and it was only human, I. He’d made it into the back of church for, I reckon almost a year, before he felt like he wanted to take the next step. And I think part of the principle of that is, well, I say to people we work with how fast you want to work with us.
00:13:38:02 – 00:13:52:02
Dave Kuen
Some people I do need a little bit of a push in a program. Come on. My. Let’s go. But lots of people are working. Working with sort of particular hurts. And traumas and everything, you know, and I think sometimes pushing them is unhelpful.
00:13:52:04 – 00:13:58:21
Pete Hughes
You know what’s interesting? I was talking to my wife about the fact we we were doing this podcast and, we were reflecting on our experience of marriage.
00:13:58:21 – 00:14:00:17
Dave Kuen
Yeah. And she said, oh, I’m going to take you.
00:14:00:19 – 00:14:18:12
Pete Hughes
Well, it was pretty quick. Yeah. But that was the thing she said, actually, I think it was too quick. Yeah. Because she said, she said looking back, she was going, I think I was still grieving, leaving my last church, I wasn’t ready. Yes. To connecting with this church just yet. Yeah. And I probably pushed it a little bit too hard, so it was probably on me.
00:14:18:14 – 00:14:20:08
Pete Hughes
So. Sorry.
00:14:20:10 – 00:14:21:16
Dave Kuen
Is a confession session.
00:14:21:16 – 00:14:26:17
Pete Hughes
Oh, yes. Yeah. Look, I know.
00:14:26:19 – 00:14:43:00
Pete Hughes
I was just about getting to know the Catholic, but. No, no, I’m just going to let this keep going. This is a podcast. It’s not a confessional. And, but coming out of new ish, they’ve got, you know, you want to either put people, encourage people to go into life or together, which is the membership thing.
00:14:43:00 – 00:14:48:01
Pete Hughes
Yeah. Why would someone run both new ish and, and a membership course? Why do you need both?
00:14:48:06 – 00:15:16:13
Dave Kuen
Yeah, I think, I think that together. So for us, together, our, our membership moment to Tuesday nights, once a term, it can be two, either two detailed or, from a time commitment point of view, too much at that particular point, if that’s the first thing you put before people, whereas I think the advantage of new is gives them a taste.
00:15:16:15 – 00:15:26:17
Dave Kuen
I do it together. Little sell at it to say if you want to know more, if you want to land the plane, pull up the engine, see how it works, see how it runs. Well, have I got the thing for you?
00:15:26:17 – 00:15:27:02
Pete Hughes
Let me tell.
00:15:27:02 – 00:15:58:07
Dave Kuen
You. That’s right. And we will throw in this. And now, and so I think that’s sort of really helpful in a, in a time poor environment, of which we are here in the northwest, to sort of jump in for that 10 to 15 minutes, I think is, an easier first step. And often if they’ve taken that first step with us, and they’ve heard a little bit more, I think I’ve done the stats on it, but it just feels like they’re more inclined to take another step with us.
00:15:58:09 – 00:16:10:18
Pete Hughes
I was going to say, has there ever been a case where someone’s come to newish met you gone? You know what? Actually, this isn’t the church for me. Thanks for your time and gone somewhere else. Is that ever happened or.
00:16:10:20 – 00:16:13:03
Dave Kuen
Definitely happened off the back of our together?
00:16:13:04 – 00:16:14:10
Pete Hughes
Veronica.
00:16:14:12 – 00:16:21:23
Dave Kuen
And and while you’ve. I have that moment. Oh, man. Like. Yeah. Bummer. But I’m also like, that’s it’s it’s doing its job.
00:16:22:03 – 00:16:32:07
Pete Hughes
That’s that’s what it should be doing because you don’t want that happening into a three year time. You actually for their sake as well, like not just the church but for their sake and their growth as a disciple. So yeah.
00:16:32:08 – 00:16:33:13
Dave Kuen
Yeah, yeah.
00:16:33:15 – 00:16:52:23
Pete Hughes
Now here’s a there’s a question I want to ask in terms of at what point in that pathway. So, you know, people come in there, visit, I go to newish, they go to together, they end up in a small group. Is is there a discernible point along the way where they go? Actually, Dave, you my pastor, and I’m now going to sit under your spiritual authority.
00:16:53:01 – 00:17:09:10
Pete Hughes
Does that happen at newish or do you think that happens at together, or is there is there a moment where that is explicitly kind of addressed? So I’m, I’m in Hebrews 1317 at this one is called submit to your leaders, for they have to give an account for you. Is there a point where that happens?
00:17:09:12 – 00:17:33:05
Dave Kuen
New newish is not that moment right? Newish. It’s part it’s probably part of it as they meet me and go, is is this a sort of, you know, you know, and sort of gives them a snippet. But I think in terms of concrete decision, together is where they made the whole staff time, in terms of and, you know, we outline who’s responsible for what and how that’s going to work.
00:17:33:05 – 00:17:57:23
Dave Kuen
That that is I don’t know whether we’ve made it completely explicit. But it’s definitely implied. He’s your he’s your pastor’s. He’s the team that will invest into you and look after you. So there is a decision point whether they actively make that decision and go, oh yeah, yeah, I’m here. And I’m willing to do that. But yeah, I don’t think we necessarily asked the question, so to speak.
00:17:57:23 – 00:18:15:17
Pete Hughes
So yeah. All right. Let’s say someone’s been listening to this. Go on. You know what? Newish. This sounds like a plan. We should we’ve got out. We do have our membership kind of role thing going there, but, what we need to do is now put this into practice. What would you do to to implement this?
00:18:15:19 – 00:18:34:21
Dave Kuen
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So part of this is thinking about mapping out your pathway, right? Like, you know, what what do you want it to do? And so for us, it’s that triage moment. You know, if you know the pathway, it’s that sort of a fork in the road. And so what do you need to communicate at that point?
00:18:35:01 – 00:18:54:13
Pete Hughes
Actually can’t just stop there because I actually think that’s a really important thing for people to kind of think, where is your triage moment in your pathway. Yeah. Like so for you to be able to sit down, have a 15 minute conversation with someone I think is a much better triage moment than me trying to work out as a new person while everyone else is talking, going.
00:18:54:15 – 00:18:55:19
Dave Kuen
Yeah.
00:18:55:21 – 00:19:04:16
Pete Hughes
Are you a follower of Jesus, are you not? Where do you think you are? All of that sort of stuff? It’s much, much easier to do that in that kind of conversation that’s setting. So that’s a really key thing.
00:19:04:20 – 00:19:39:19
Dave Kuen
Yeah, yeah. So, it it is, I think and, and for us that that’s the, the clear purpose is we, we when, how do we want to do that sort of little triage moment. Okay. Let’s talk visioning there because that’s, that’s super important. And and all the other things. But in terms of to, I actually invite everyone to come to life that comes through newish, and the reason, the reason I do that is because, one of the things I say is I’m so excited that you’re thinking about coming.
00:19:39:20 – 00:20:03:03
Dave Kuen
I think you should. But I’m also excited about the 100 and 150 people who, you know, that we don’t know. And as much as I’d enjoying meeting you, I’d like to make them to. And I want you to invite them to come to life. But I know there’s relational capital with that. So if you want to come along and you know where we’re where this Wednesday, why don’t you come?
00:20:03:05 – 00:20:22:09
Dave Kuen
And, you know, we’ve got capacity and sort of the agility to sort of welcome people to come. And so you should come, and, you know, and check it out. And so part of that again is that, that culture that you want to create to say if you come here, they’re pretty interested in getting to know my friends who don’t know Jesus.
00:20:22:11 – 00:20:41:22
Dave Kuen
And, you know, we’re serious about that. And that’s, again, a conviction and a culture thing that I’m keen to infuse into every person that walks through our door. And so while it’s a triage, as in, I don’t know if you’re saved, Pete, maybe you should come to life, but rather than go, hey, Pete, you should come to life it.
00:20:41:22 – 00:20:50:17
Dave Kuen
I think you saved the invitation is much easier and relationally warm if I invite everyone in the room. So, in order to do that. So. Yeah.
00:20:50:19 – 00:20:56:07
Pete Hughes
Yeah. Any other in terms of setting up anything else that you think that’s going to be helpful for people?
00:20:56:08 – 00:21:18:10
Dave Kuen
You need you need something at the end. So we, you know, we just have a simple form in planning, Saint John that says, you know, tell us your name, details, all those things. But then, I, we ask the am I can we send you an email? So we want typos, privacy. Seriously? But who does emails these days?
00:21:18:12 – 00:21:38:19
Dave Kuen
And then we ask them, can I do you want to come to life? And then do you want to come together? So it’s super simple. And if our welcoming teams haven’t got their details at this point, I’m the sort of safety net to a certain degree. Or if they’ve forgotten their name. Who’s that guy? I’m like, oh, that’s that’s Pete.
00:21:38:19 – 00:21:48:02
Dave Kuen
Yeah. Yeah. He’s he’s with before the year. So it’s a safety net in that. And I don’t know about other churches. We wait for it really hard to get people’s details.
00:21:48:06 – 00:21:49:14
Pete Hughes
Yeah, people really want to give it away.
00:21:49:14 – 00:22:07:01
Dave Kuen
I do like the connection isn’t, isn’t, you know, or online occasionally. But this is a real help because I say to people at the end, like, I try and set the expectation, you should feel this for me now. And I sort of white and you ask questions. I’m like, oh, actually, if you can feel for me, that’d be really helpful.
00:22:07:03 – 00:22:14:10
Dave Kuen
No obligation doesn’t mean you’re in. And then we make sure obviously we do follow up the next day to say so. Great. So you newish.
00:22:14:17 – 00:23:28:06
