What do you do when ministry starts to feel heavy and you cannot quite name why?
Burnout is not always dramatic. Often it is a slow disconnect between your gospel convictions and your emotional capacity. In this episode, we explore why that drift happens and how coaching can provide a space to work through it.
We talk about:
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What burnout actually looks like in ministry
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Why leaders often isolate themselves when they most need support
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The difference between coaching, mentoring, supervision, and counselling
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How good questions can uncover what is really going on beneath the surface
Why leading yourself well is part of faithful gospel ministry
Toolbox:
Zeal without Burnout by Christopher Ash
Credits:
This episode was brought to you by Lending Hands Mortgage Brokers
The One Thing is brought to you by Reach Australia
To pray for Reach Australia, join our WhatsApp Group
For ideas or questions please email [email protected]
Support Reach Australia’s online library
Transcript:
The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
00:00:04:11 – 00:00:17:08
Pete Hughes
00:00:18:05 – 00:00:24:22
Pete Hughes
00:00:24:24 – 00:00:26:22
Mike Sams
00:00:26:22 – 00:00:47:19
Pete Hughes
G’day, I’m Pete Hughes and welcome to the one thing.
00:00:47:19 – 00:01:05:10
Pete Hughes
Especially if you’re a new listener. This is a podcast designed to give you one solid practical tip for ministry. You might want to go back, listen to some of our old episodes. They’re great. The one thing spoke to you by Reach Australia. We we’re a ministry. We would love to see thousands of healthy evangelists multiplying churches, healthy leaders as well.
00:01:05:10 – 00:01:11:20
Pete Hughes
We’re going to be talking about that today. Mike Sams, who is part of our Reach Australia team. Mike, welcome.
00:01:11:22 – 00:01:13:21
Mike Sams
Right. Hey, babe. Hang on.
00:01:13:23 – 00:01:28:00
Pete Hughes
Mate. Tell me what. We’ve known each other for a while, but, I want to just in case people will, feel like, you guys are overly familiar with each other. But let me ask you, what do you think? What is God teaching you right now?
00:01:28:02 – 00:01:55:18
Mike Sams
Yeah. I think, as I’ve been reflecting upon, where coaching is at and all those, kind of things that my, world is at the moment is going back to the main thing around, not any priorities on strategies or things to do, but that trust and love for God is so foundational. I decided to keep coming back to him, relying upon him, and then working everything else through that.
00:01:55:20 – 00:02:03:01
Mike Sams
So because of affections towards God and dependance, I think has been a really helpful thing to see.
00:02:03:03 – 00:02:19:20
Pete Hughes
Wow, that’s that’s huge. And so and and we’re going to be talking a bit about this in terms of, coaching. So we’ll we’ll get it. But let’s get into it. So, so now you press play on another episode of the one thing burnout and coaching with Mike Sam’s case. I don’t know, there’s a little bit of crackle there.
00:02:19:20 – 00:02:23:23
Pete Hughes
I don’t know what we’re going to do with it. If you can hear it, then grind it. If you do. I can’t do much about that one.
00:02:23:23 – 00:02:25:21
Mike Sams
So is that me?
00:02:25:23 – 00:02:32:01
Pete Hughes
Yeah. It’s when you’re talking you. There’s just a little bit of a crackle. So.
00:02:32:03 – 00:02:37:08
Pete Hughes
Actually, let me just see if I can adjust something under this.
00:02:37:10 – 00:02:43:22
Mike Sams
We’re we’re.
00:02:43:24 – 00:02:48:02
Pete Hughes
Oh, that’s a no. I got.
00:02:48:04 – 00:03:07:12
Pete Hughes
No, no, we’ll work it out. All right? Actually, Mike, I want to, Let’s start. You’ve moved into the coaching world, so you spent a lot of time coaching guys in ministry all over the country. What is. Why is this such a big thing for you? Like, why have you decided to move into this part of ministry, Mike?
00:03:07:14 – 00:03:26:22
Mike Sams
Well, initially it was kind of because of Covid. The company got to work for each and then and then not being able to travel, pivoted into doing coaching and very quickly, I just realized how helpful it is not just to have a peer or someone older to talk to a ministry that we often do and is really great.
00:03:26:24 – 00:03:59:10
Mike Sams
But to have someone who thought through how to have helpful conversations with you, to walk alongside you, to help you with all manner of, things in your life is profoundly helpful. And I think as I was being coached and getting great benefits of it, and then just finding myself enjoying multiple conversations and seeing, pastors that I’m talking, to just find it really, really helpful to work out things together, I couldn’t I just wanted to do it more and more.
00:03:59:10 – 00:04:16:21
Pete Hughes
Really cool. Now we’re gonna be talking a little bit more about coach. I want to come back to that question of what is coaching and how does that work? But we’re also talking about burnout. Let’s start with that. What what’s the difference between burnout and when? You know what, I’m just feeling tired. It’s Monday morning. I’ve just had a long Sunday.
00:04:16:23 – 00:04:20:04
Pete Hughes
How do I know when I’m actually burnt out?
00:04:20:06 – 00:04:45:05
Mike Sams
Yeah. Look, I think the way we might, talk about it today is it. It’s think about it like there’s this overriding emotional, spiritual, physical exhaustion and it’s, there’s a distance or a disconnect in, in your life that’s not normal. So it is normal to be tired when you’ve done a lot of things, in the, you’ve had a Sunday that has just been massive and full on.
00:04:45:05 – 00:05:17:18
Mike Sams
You’ve spoken to many, many people, you’ve preached three sermons, whatever it is, and you wake up the next morning. Oh. I’m really tired. Of course, that’s why I made. But when it’s something that’s overriding, it’s it’s exhaustion. You feel depleted. What that can look like is you wake up in the morning and you, maybe you feel that sense of dread, of doing the things that you normally do, that even your gospel convictions as a Christian, you are all in on.
00:05:17:20 – 00:05:27:06
Mike Sams
But now you’re finding yourself feeling like I’m exhausted. And the idea of doing those things, it’s not the same, and it doesn’t seem to match up.
00:05:27:08 – 00:05:33:07
Pete Hughes
Okay, so it’s you might you still have those convictions, but they’re just not driving you in the same way. Is that what you mean?
00:05:33:09 – 00:06:08:07
Mike Sams
Yeah. There’s a disconnect between how you, have thought about life coming, going into ministry and thinking. I understand the gospel has transformed my life. And I want to, serve God in that in any way possible. Proclaim the gospel, bring people of faith, help them become more mature in a community together. And then yet there’s an element of you just not feeling like you can possibly get do it, in all sorts of different ways, and you can push through, but it’s different.
00:06:08:07 – 00:06:28:16
Mike Sams
There’s a there’s a dread to it. I like the idea of thinking it. There’s a depletion in, in my energy levels of being able to do it. It can be in its worst. Just the things that you once loved or the reason you got intimacy. You find yourself like sometimes that you can even articulate it in.
00:06:28:16 – 00:06:39:22
Mike Sams
You hate doing them. But but you know, intellectually that’s not what it is. Or you still believe in the gospel, but that’s the disconnect.
00:06:39:24 – 00:06:56:20
Pete Hughes
Yeah, yeah. You know, it’s true. Do you know it’s there? It’s just. Yeah. I just don’t want to, yeah, I guess you’re right. That sense of, even even hating doing it. But in your experience, how how common is it, like, are you seeing a lot of burnout? I know that people talk about there’s a lot of burnout with ministry staff.
00:06:56:22 – 00:06:59:15
Pete Hughes
Is that what you’re saying?
00:06:59:17 – 00:07:25:05
Mike Sams
Yeah, I reckon it’s it’s helpful to think of, I kind of think of it as, what we experience is it’s not uncommon in the course of, say, a 2 to 3 coaching relationship, to have, I’d, I would say more than half the converse, coaching relationships would have some type of conversation around this area in the course of a coaching relationship.
00:07:25:07 – 00:07:50:00
Mike Sams
Some, some that I’ve had in, in the quite a few coaching relationships I’ve had. And it’s the first thing that we deal with and it’s on the front page and it’s it’s a restorative kind of conversation. And the things that we’re working on is to try and, work through these things particularly. But sometimes and often it is, as we’re working on something or an issue comes up in church life, these things come up, and these conversations happen.
00:07:50:00 – 00:08:15:12
Mike Sams
So I think it’s the idea of the disconnect I think is prevalent to some extent in the course of a person’s ministry. Life, if you like, that this can happen, without diagnosing. This is how many people have got a kind of technical clinical burnout. I think we see this disconnect happening, quite, frequently in our conversations.
00:08:15:14 – 00:08:31:02
Pete Hughes
Actually. That’s a really helpful distinction to make. Like, I mean, the label burnout is it is a is it not? But actually going, hey, what have I have I got that disconnection between my convictions of that drive to keep going with ministry. Yeah. That’s a, that’s, that’s, that’s often that’s really helpful.
00:08:31:07 – 00:08:53:23
Mike Sams
And I would throw in it’s when that what that plays out like is this sense of exhaustion and, and however you articulated the within the table thing of a different way, it’s whether it’s, dread depletion. I just got nothing left in the tank. That’s that you add that to that current, distinction.
00:08:54:00 – 00:09:12:14
Pete Hughes
So let me ask you, when you, have that conversation, because some people may go, I’m feeling that disconnect. So I’m going to get a coach. Coach will fix it. What’s that initial conversation like for you? Are you identifying that, hey, that they may not even be aware that there’s a disconnect? How do you have that conversation?
00:09:12:14 – 00:09:16:01
Pete Hughes
And right at the start of the coaching relationship.
00:09:16:03 – 00:09:40:23
Mike Sams
Well, it really depends. So it depends upon, how it how it’s brought up. Right. So if someone’s wanting to just share with you and is very open about, wanting to talk through with you how I’m feeling, my exhaustion, and then in any good, coaching relationship, you’re not there like I, as you kind of said that fix it.
00:09:41:00 – 00:10:04:04
Mike Sams
Like ultimately, the coach is there to help them work out how like how they can best, live for God within the gospel to be and then make decisions around what that looks like, whether it’s practical, spiritual and all sorts of other avenues. And so actually listening and asking good questions to help them actually be able to articulate even more deeply what they’re thinking.
00:10:04:06 – 00:10:25:18
Mike Sams
So it can even be when they’re bringing it to you, just helping them understand what’s, going on so that they can maybe discover what it is more freely. Because sometimes in this space, it’s just we don’t really know what’s going on, and we can unlock it ourselves.
00:10:25:20 – 00:10:55:10
Pete Hughes
Which makes coaching so important. But, again, we will come back to it, I promise. But in terms of but let me just finish with the burnout thing, though. Is there something about ministry that particularly means that we, prone to to that disconnect or, I mean, do we find out? Like, let me put it a bit more bluntly, are there lies that we tell ourselves as gospel workers that make us prone to, to to burnout?
00:10:55:12 – 00:11:20:05
Mike Sams
Yeah. It’s good. The lie we can tell ourselves is that I don’t need anyone else. Which is kind of contrary to what we say that God wants for us. We don’t do relationship with God in isolation. We do it in a community with others. And so when we’re struggling or when we or even if we think I should never struggle, so I’m not going to actually engage with anyone else.
00:11:20:07 – 00:11:53:07
Mike Sams
And because we’re too late, I, we can’t be vulnerable in any way. We can, kind of convince ourselves that I don’t need this or I shouldn’t have to need it. And I think one of the best things, whether it’s coaching or some other kind of mode, one of the best things that we need to, reassess and think about is, is that how can I actually, bring others in to, help me live for God more, effectively to please him for the sake of the gospel?
00:11:53:09 – 00:11:59:10
Mike Sams
So I think that’s the big kind of one that comes to mind. I think you said to come. Yeah.
00:11:59:12 – 00:12:12:16
Pete Hughes
I’m sorry. When you say bring others in. Are you talking about people? PS are we talking about, you know, people that you trust at church or are we talking about coaching. Are we talking about all of that sort of stuff or what sort of relationships? You mean when you say bring someone into your life?
00:12:12:16 – 00:12:28:22
Mike Sams
Well, yeah. So when it comes to burnout, I think you do sometimes. Sometimes when you’re being proactive and you’re working on it and you’re catching, you know what? I’m just going to work. I know what I need to do, and I’ve set things up and like, I’ll get my sleep back on track and that’ll be fine. And everything’s good.
00:12:28:24 – 00:13:02:13
Mike Sams
Okay, that’s fine. But there are times when we just don’t have the capacity to sort things out for ourself. And, and bringing other people in to help us work that out. And it can be different avenues. When coaching is a particularly good avenue is when you would love someone who is outside of your context, but in a, a coach who for you, you would trust in the professional, context of that relationship?
00:13:02:15 – 00:13:18:23
Mike Sams
They can help you wrestle with it and work it out. What’s going on? Or in any other avenue of life that you’re thinking about. That’s why it’s really that’s where it’s really important now. It doesn’t always what my point was about bringing someone else in. It does when it comes to this doesn’t have to be a coach.
00:13:19:00 – 00:13:52:12
Mike Sams
Burnout does not equal coaching. But actually bring others in. Coaching is really, really helpful to have someone, help you think it through, ask you questions, listen to you. He’ll be restore your your, mind back to your gospel convictions. But also at times help you see, are there are things deeper he that you might need to go and get professional help with that it goes beyond the scope of a coaching relationship that it is worthwhile to see a psychologist, a counselor.
00:13:52:16 – 00:14:10:10
Mike Sams
And that’s why I said bring how the zeal sometimes it’s someone that. And that’s a good thing, I think, for us in ministry to think about and do. But other times, on the other end of the scale, it’s a, it’s a piece that you’ve gone through Ministry of Life together with and just talking to them about it and you alongside with each other, make it happen.
00:14:10:12 – 00:14:28:00
Mike Sams
In talking this through is helpful as well. And then sometimes, you know, supervision is important. Reflection, can be a significant element to helping you restore yourself as well. So that’s why I think that’s a key thing, that we need to do. Yeah.
00:14:28:02 – 00:14:45:04
Pete Hughes
Okay. So let me just clarify some of those things because, we’ve talked a bit about coaching. You’ve mentioned counseling psychologists and supervision. What’s the difference between those three? Like. Yeah. What’s the difference particularly about coaching that makes it different to, say, mentoring or counseling or supervision.
00:14:45:06 – 00:15:13:07
Mike Sams
Sure. The trick we have in this space, I think it is, is, that when people talk about these things and it’s not surprising or unreasonable, I think it’s reasonable to think that, there is significant overlap. And then the way that we define it, can sound like the same thing when we’re using different words. I think if we think about what are the different kinds of modes, I think that helps unlock it a little bit in some ways.
00:15:13:09 – 00:15:40:18
Mike Sams
And so when, if you think about even beyond those definitions that, that those categories you go for, if you think about what is it that we often do as pastors, we teach and we train often, that’s so much we’re telling people things. Coaching is not like that. That’s what I that’s why I love about it. It’s it’s distinctive that we get passes doing something, having more skills that we don’t just naturally do we?
00:15:40:18 – 00:16:11:10
Mike Sams
We develop even more listening skills, questioning skills to help someone work it out. Yeah. There’s not another know that sometimes called mentoring or sometimes coaching and mentoring a very overlapped. But when you speak to and have someone who’s maybe, older than you or, someone who’s wiser, who’s gone before you, who you catch up with, it gives you, wisdom and advice because they’ve been through it before, that kind of.
00:16:11:10 – 00:16:43:18
Mike Sams
But yeah, that can be called mentoring. Sometimes that’s that requires someone who has got that experience and gone through it. Supervision is, you know, there is significant overlap in the pastoral supervision space that had the three key areas which which are significant the, the restorative, the formative and normative, areas of that, that, they focus on those, those three areas where you are looking at restoring yourself in the issue.
00:16:43:18 – 00:17:04:20
Mike Sams
So like regards to burnout, reflecting upon what’s going on to you is critical. Or, or reflecting upon how you’re going to develop as a leader, in the formative stage, and then in the, in the normative, it’s the importance of ethics and morality. And our code of conduct. And so reflecting upon that is critical.
00:17:05:01 – 00:17:32:02
Mike Sams
So you can see these different modes and they overlap, in their difference. Coaching. The way that we think about coaching and it’s distinction, it’s not like we you don’t have moments when there is a mentoring element that there could be, there is significant reflecting overlap because you can’t actually help someone work on something if you’re not listening and asking good questions and helping them discover what’s actually happening.
00:17:32:04 – 00:17:54:00
Mike Sams
So we coaching has to do that. And what, good gospel coaching is, is to bring the gospel to bear in all of life. And so, we want to actually think it through intentionally. And so having objectives, having a plan and then following through on it and reflecting upon that the next time is something that is fundamental to our coaching.
00:17:54:02 – 00:18:10:15
Mike Sams
But like I said, we have things that are related to supervision and mentoring. But that’s not to say that, that doesn’t goal setting objectives doesn’t happen in supervision. That’s kind of why there’s good overlap. But there are distinctions and strengths to them.
00:18:10:17 – 00:18:28:09
Pete Hughes
Yeah, that’s really helpful because I think it’s helpful for people to understand the difference between, coaching, mentoring, counseling, supervision so that they can kind of go, what exactly do I need right now? And it may be that you need a coach to work out what you actually need, but it’s helped that they’re not quite all the same things.
00:18:28:11 – 00:18:42:06
Pete Hughes
Also helpful for me as a coach, because I think as I’m hearing you talk about mentoring and coaching, I, I think I keep slipping into mentoring rather than actually doing my job as a coach. So and I know I’m supposed to answer to you as a coach, so I probably should mention that on a podcast.
00:18:42:08 – 00:18:46:01
Mike Sams
Well, let’s move it off line. Pete Nash yeah.
00:18:46:03 – 00:19:09:18
Pete Hughes
Let’s move on. Yeah. Okay, so let me ask, can we talk a little bit about prevention of, of what what’s what’s some tips to help kind of prevent that disconnect or create some sort of resiliency? I mean, that’s that’s one of the key buzz word at the moment for that sort of thing. You got any tips for prevention?
00:19:09:20 – 00:19:24:20
Mike Sams
Can I say the obvious thing? That’s the most important thing. And I still think it’s what we don’t pay enough attention to as pastors is lead ourself well by leaning into our relationship with Jesus, having our eyes.
00:19:24:22 – 00:19:37:11
Pete Hughes
We got to keep hearing it. I mean, the fact that I realize, yes, we should all know this and I’m sure there are people listening go, yeah, yeah, I should know that. And I teach that, but I don’t do it. So yeah, sorry.
00:19:37:16 – 00:19:57:06
Mike Sams
Continue on now that’s fine, because I think we think we’re doing that well. And often we are. But there’s subtleties to how are we truly finding our identity in him. It’s so easy to think we are when we’re in ministry, but it could be about us on the side a little bit. It could be our identities in the ministry.
00:19:57:06 – 00:20:21:07
Mike Sams
It could be our identity in is looking good amongst our peers. It could be all of these little things that are sideline acts, that aren’t showing themselves very significantly, but they chip away at us that instead of actually resting on God, trusting in him, depending upon it. That’s kind of where my my reflections are said at the beginning when you said, What’s God teaching you now?
00:20:21:07 – 00:20:48:07
Mike Sams
It’s coming back to that. Because if we’re going to think about how, how I deal with my exhaustion and depletion, if we’re going to do it from a gospel, Christian is seeking to follow Jesus. We’ve got to be honest with how we’re going with that first and foremost. So it doesn’t matter who you talk with, the type of person you talk with, it has to be what coaching is.
00:20:48:07 – 00:21:07:13
Mike Sams
And it’s my world that gospel coaching is not just coaching, it’s gospel coaching. And so it doesn’t matter whether you’re talking strategy, it doesn’t matter whether you’re talking, someone’s, family life. It doesn’t matter whether you’re talking actually about burnout. It has to have that element of how is the gospel being brought to bear, how are you going with that?
00:21:07:15 – 00:21:26:15
Mike Sams
Because you can’t do strategy. Well, if your goal is to run, ride over people and, and roughshod and treat them poorly, and you can’t have you can’t actually make good decisions if you’re so exhausted all the time that your mental capacity to make good decisions when you’re working on where church wants to go because you’re burnout.
00:21:26:17 – 00:21:50:22
Mike Sams
And so coming back to it, how can I trust in Jesus is first and foremost. And then as you do, that understanding yourself is key through that lens. And then there are practical things. There are things that we can understand about where are you with your health? Where are you with your habits? Where are you actually with just understanding the kind of person you are?
00:21:50:24 – 00:22:12:15
Mike Sams
Because that can play a big impact on how you manage your exhaustion, your stress, and your levels and help you understand where there is unresolved pain or and how you deal with it. That’s for, some people with unresolved pain. 9th May get really defensive for another person with unresolved pain. They may need retreat and never actually talk about it and want to hide.
00:22:12:15 – 00:22:31:06
Mike Sams
But if we don’t know that about ourselves, it’s very hard to deal with it. And so we can we, we wrestle with those things. A good example of, of this understanding. So if you are the kind of person who loves people, but you know that you’re really, really exhausted and you don’t get your energy from people.
00:22:31:08 – 00:22:51:04
Mike Sams
If you set up your life in ministry where you never have a moment to be, recharged, it’s not surprising that six months down the road, 12 months down the road, five years down the road, you are feeling exhausted and you wake up thinking, have I got the energy to talk to people? And it’s got nothing to do with your convictions about loving them.
00:22:51:06 – 00:23:13:00
Mike Sams
Or that that could get chipped away at, and so I think that’s really important, understanding yourself. And then I think you, as you, I’ve already said, sometimes that means having the humility as a leader to think it’s actually good for me to bring people in. And sometimes it might mean more than just talking to a friend and appear in ministry.
00:23:13:02 – 00:23:38:08
Mike Sams
And actually doing something about it with accountability. I think that’s that’s a significant thing that it’s good to think about. How you going to deal with your exhaustion and whatever that looks like. You’re burnout. But if it’s hard, if you’re deep in it, or trying to prevent it to actually not have accountability. And I don’t think you just need accountability when things are tough.
00:23:38:08 – 00:23:43:03
Mike Sams
I think if you’re trying to set yourself up well, having accountability is very helpful.
00:23:43:05 – 00:24:01:21
Pete Hughes
That’s usually the best place to have accountability. Like it’s that’s usually the best place to start that accountability relationship, isn’t it, because you’re developing that relationship of trust. Can I just go back to something you mentioned that you said, taking the time to recharge. Do you think, different people recharge different ways, just the way that God has made us or.
00:24:01:21 – 00:24:08:00
Pete Hughes
Yeah, they are the key things that we should all be doing to recharge.
00:24:08:02 – 00:24:42:10
Mike Sams
I’m not I don’t think I’m in any way trying to prescribe what people should or shouldn’t do or how much time they should spend, with friends or in, in, all sorts of different, different avenues here. I think what I would say is we all, we all do, recharge. Well, we all do need time to kind of get our energy back, to clear our heads, to have time to process in different ways.
00:24:42:12 – 00:25:11:22
Mike Sams
And sometimes we don’t stop and think, how we go about how we go about that. And the reality is, sometimes in our life, we can’t do it the way that we prefer and ideal by the nature of our work. But being aware of that and putting little things in place is really helpful. But also, you can flip it the other side to pay that and go a bit, too far and go, I must, because this is the way I am, have this time off or this rest.
00:25:11:22 – 00:25:33:11
Mike Sams
And that’s that’s the exact opposite of what I think it is to to show that day in life and ministry is to, to actually mandate what must happen. That’s not how life works, but that awareness of, oh, okay, if I do this, I do know that there’s a good chance that, I’m going to be exhausted. But a practical example might clear it up a little bit.
00:25:33:13 – 00:25:53:11
Mike Sams
If I’m coaching four people in a day. I know for people, and the nature of it, it back to back, I’m going to be really, really exhausted the end of the day. And if I’ve got decisions to be made and I’ve got to sit at my desk and write things, at the end of that day, I’m going to be so unproductive and and I’m going to be because that’s three doesn’t seem to make much difference to me.
00:25:53:13 – 00:26:08:00
Mike Sams
I’ll explain it to someone else that I can do for easily. And that doesn’t happen. I just discovered, as I started to do that, I can’t think is clearly at the end of four in a row. That’s really helpful for me. What do I do at the end? And it helps me, process and space out things.
00:26:08:02 – 00:26:10:07
Mike Sams
It’s that kind of thinking, I think, helpful.
00:26:10:09 – 00:26:33:19
Pete Hughes
And so that’s part of your knowledge of self like understanding. Okay. I realize I can do I can do three for pushing it. Someone over there go for yeah walk in the park kind of thing. Yeah. And it’s interesting I this is we’re going off a little off topic but I been thinking about there was something I read about not just time management, energy management of just working out what is depleting you and what is, you know, helping you grow.
00:26:33:21 – 00:26:41:14
Pete Hughes
And actually, how are you putting that your timetable, not just how are you using a time, but how are you using your energy? Well, that’s, that’s probably an a whole nother podcast, so we’ll leave that.
00:26:41:17 – 00:27:14:13
Mike Sams
Yeah. Quite possibly. I would add to pay. It’s not about. And sometimes it’s thinking through. It’s not about working hard or not working hard. You know how, like when you ask someone how it going, and I do this all the time. So how are you going? I’m really busy. You. So that it’s like. Yeah, there is an endless amount of things that are great for the gospel that we can do and feel at that time we like there is like there’s always more that we can do, and in the large part, we it’s not about you can work really, really hard and not and work really, really long hours and not go through
00:27:14:13 – 00:27:35:04
Mike Sams
burnout. If you’re managing yourself well, you get gospel convictions in how you operate. Everything’s aligned and it’s going. And at the same time, someone who’s maybe being a little lazy, maybe a little bit of ungodliness, maybe not managing their time well and and they can feel like they’re really, really busy and, and be really burnt out and exhausted and depleted.
00:27:35:06 – 00:27:43:11
Mike Sams
And so it’s not just about hours on it. On your, in your calendar and you need to have less on or more on.
00:27:43:13 – 00:28:05:04
Pete Hughes
Yeah. It’s I think it’s really helpful. All right. Mark, we got to get we got to wrap this up. The one thing. What’s the if you could just say one thing to gospel workers around the country when they perhaps when they’re starting to feel that disconnect between their convictions and they drive or their, their passions. What’s the one thing you’d want to say to them?
00:28:05:06 – 00:28:38:17
Mike Sams
Like always bring it to bring it to God. Wrestle with the things that you can discover for yourself. As you do that, and don’t be afraid to actually bring other people in, to help you work out what’s next. And that’s where coaching other avenues can be really, really helpful to help you. Live a life serving, serving God and involved, in gospel ministry.
00:28:38:19 – 00:28:53:06
Pete Hughes
That’s that’s super helpful. And you may be listening to this right now, and that’s where you’re at. And so I really, I really wanna encourage you to listen to what, Marcus has just said for us. Let’s get to the toolbox. I’m gonna I’m going to kind of give it to you to kind of go.
00:28:53:08 – 00:29:04:12
Pete Hughes
There’s lots and lots of stuff out there with, burn out, lots of different books. But let’s get it down to it. There was just one book that people you think everyone should read on burnout. What’s the one book?
00:29:04:14 – 00:29:27:15
Mike Sams
Well, I asked my the, coaching team about, what they would recommend, and there was one book that commonly got brought up, so I thought I mentioned that one, Christopher Ash’s book. Zeal Without Burning, is a good starting point, I think. It was helpful. What about the people on the team? It’s hopefully reflected that when they stop listening to that, they listen to it every year because you can audio book.
00:29:27:21 – 00:29:42:05
Mike Sams
It’s simple to, it’s deep but easy, accessible. The year that I stopped, I couldn’t listen to it was the year that maybe they were the most deflated. And that was an interesting, avenue. And so that was the year it was most important to get back to it.
00:29:42:07 – 00:30:02:07
Pete Hughes
Wow. Okay. Zeal without burnout there. You know, it’s in the in the toolbox. Hey, Mike Lee, thank you so much. Thanks for not just this episode, but thank you for all the work that you do as a coach and overseeing all the coaching unit and all that sort of stuff. And the training that you do with coaches. I want to say thank you on behalf of everyone who’s being coached in your kind of network.
00:30:02:07 – 00:30:06:01
Pete Hughes
So thank you for, for doing that. And thanks for joining us today.
00:30:06:03 – 00:30:08:04
Mike Sams
It’s going to be.
00:30:08:06 – 00:30:26:13
Pete Hughes
This this is an episode you may want to talk about as a staff team. You might want to talk about how you’re going and come up with a way of talking with each other about where you’re at in terms of, feeling disconnected, feeling burnt out. So I want to encourage you to, maybe listen to this together as a staff team.
00:30:26:15 – 00:30:44:01
Pete Hughes
If you found it a helpful episode, why don’t you do us a favor and pass it around? On his chat soon. And we didn’t even talk about how terrible golf is. I mean. Go, Mark. You know it. You know it. It’s. It’s a terrible game.
00:30:44:03 – 00:30:48:11
Mike Sams
Every time you say terrible, I had great.
00:30:48:13 – 00:30:51:10
Pete Hughes
That may end up in the outtakes at the end on Sunday.
