Nobody signs up for ministry to get excited about governance but ignore it, and you’ll end up running in circles. In this episode we dive into the practical side of governance in ministry, why it matters for healthy church growth, and how to navigate common roadblocks.
- How governance and ecclesiology interact, and why your church DNA matters from the start
- When decision-making structures hinder ministry rather than support it
- Litmus tests for spotting governance issues, including meetings, budget allocation, and leadership capacity
- How to decentralise responsibility effectively while staying faithful to your theological convictions
- Practical strategies for legal compliance, staffing, and resource management to support growth
TOOLBOX:
The Elder-Led Church by Murray Capill
A Church Consult -> (Reach Australia’s Church Consult)
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TRANSCRIPT:
The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
00:00:02:10 – 00:00:03:22
Scott Sanders
G’day, I’m Scott Sanders.
00:00:03:24 – 00:00:04:17
Derek Hanna
And I’m Derek Hanna.
00:00:04:17 – 00:00:21:09
Scott Sanders
Welcome to The One Thing, a podcast designed to give you one solid practical tip for gospel centered ministry. The one thing is brought to you by Reach Australia. We want to say thousands of healthy, evangelistic, multipoint churches. What does that look like for you guys? Well, if you’re thinking about planning a church, head to the website.
00:00:21:11 – 00:00:35:19
Scott Sanders
If you’re thinking about, seeing revitalization and change happening in church. Jump onto the website as well. Reach Australia accommodation. Well, today we’re going to be thinking about, governance. Yeah, that’s what a godly talk.
00:00:35:19 – 00:00:36:21
Derek Hanna
What a great topic.
00:00:37:01 – 00:00:57:22
Scott Sanders
Yeah, but governance and growth. It’s a really important topic to to think through. And in some senses for, for many, you don’t have a lot of choice about it. It’s kind of your denominational structures imposed. And you have to, have to work within it. But what we’re wanting to think about today as well, what are some of the,
00:00:57:24 – 00:01:22:20
Scott Sanders
Yeah. What are some of the issues that your denominational structure might have that you may or may not be aware about? What’s the relationship between legal compliance and governance? And, and how is your governance structure defined by your vision? As well. So I got lots to, push into it and think about, but for now, you’ve press play on another episode of the one thing when governance becomes a growth barrier.
00:01:22:22 – 00:01:27:03
Scott Sanders
Now, Derek, why is it that you’re thinking about this, particularly at the moment?
00:01:27:03 – 00:01:48:07
Derek Hanna
I want to I didn’t choose that that heading there because that’s triggering for me, even that when governance becomes a growth barrier. I think part of the problem with that, that phrase for me, is that it it puts governance up as a problem rather than, facilitation of a solution. And I think that’s what most people see governance within church.
00:01:48:09 – 00:02:06:20
Derek Hanna
And I want to separate ecclesiology from governance here. I know they’re connected, but they’re not the same thing. But when we’re talking about governance, a governance isn’t necessarily a problem. It can be a problem. And it often is in churches, a problem. But that’s because we’re not thinking thoughtfully into how is that church’s within our ecclesiology. And we then dominations we feed.
00:02:06:22 – 00:02:11:13
Derek Hanna
Governance helps drive the the caring for people, the mission of the church.
00:02:11:15 – 00:02:18:22
Scott Sanders
So you’ve often heard me say in the context of planting, you want to, plant like an Anglican and move towards being a Presbyterian.
00:02:18:22 – 00:02:21:12
Derek Hanna
So I’ve just left it out when you said that.
00:02:21:13 – 00:02:22:09
Scott Sanders
Yes.
00:02:22:11 – 00:02:23:03
Derek Hanna
It is.
00:02:23:05 – 00:02:41:11
Scott Sanders
But what what’s behind that for me is, you know, an angle. An Anglican rector, has control over the ministry philosophy church plant at the start really wants to say culture, and direction. And so I really want to be careful about the elders. They choose if if that’s their, ecclesiology and governance, governance framework. That I want to point.
00:02:41:13 – 00:02:57:07
Scott Sanders
Young elders, even though I think elders it’s in the title all the older men, and you want to be thoughtful, thoughtful about setting up those structures in that culture, and you want to be really, you know, I guess tied on that at the start so that you can actually release it out.
00:02:57:09 – 00:03:12:24
Derek Hanna
Part of the problem with that, though, is some some would say part of the problem with that is you do see the DNA from the start and that DNA is your functioning like at, in your words, in Anglican Church there. And so one person has the power. And even when you invite other people into that over time.
00:03:12:24 – 00:03:24:08
Derek Hanna
And I’m actually for being very, very careful about putting people in positions of leadership. Too early or in the wrong place. But when that is the pattern you start out, if that’s the DNA, it actually hangs around and.
00:03:24:08 – 00:03:42:00
Scott Sanders
It becomes a great barrier because you’re actually not handing over delegating responsibility. So so let’s yeah, let’s talk about the relation between governance and growth. So let’s think about some of the I guess the key here is where actually, not paying attention to our governance structures can actually limit our growth.
00:03:42:02 – 00:03:59:13
Derek Hanna
Yeah. I think can I, if we could just touch on ecclesiology in order to answer that? Yeah. If we can just circle back for when you get led to use that phrase, can I use that? You can circle back, circle back like that. But, I think the understanding that the governance within ecclesiology is theology of church.
00:03:59:15 – 00:04:23:06
Derek Hanna
So, I’m hoping that we’re going back to our biblical convictions, around what we think the Bible says about church in order to build a biblical pattern for that. Now, obviously, there are some governance structures that fit better in certain ecclesiology than others. But, we can actually, governance have a governance structure within, our ecclesial logical framework, like a Presbyterian or a Baptist or an Anglican.
00:04:23:08 – 00:04:48:05
Derek Hanna
That is different to other, you know, a similar denomination. So one Presbyterian church doesn’t necessarily have to have the same governance structure. Now, obviously, the Dominations frame how those governance, sit within their but part of the the growth scaling question is, you don’t want you want your ecclesiology to be a limiter because we do have clear boundaries, like we’re not just doing anything to grow.
00:04:48:09 – 00:05:09:19
Derek Hanna
So our ecclesiology is a limiter, but governance within that. We need to be really careful to identify is this an ecclesia, a logical conviction, or just a governance moment where we need to reshape within our ecclesial logical boundaries? How does we operate in order to, not limit the, growth and maturity of those people in a church and the mission we’re driving towards?
00:05:09:19 – 00:05:33:22
Scott Sanders
So what you what you’re pushing into is, a key, a key part of the governance question is decision making. Yep. So, how how do we decide on, on key decisions? And our ecclesiology will often drive and frame that, but then also the, the regulations, the code, the governance structures and models of our, of our churches will also, also guide that.
00:05:33:24 – 00:05:56:04
Scott Sanders
And we’ve also got the law of the land as well. Yep. Where, you know, if you’re an independent evangelical church, for example, you need to have a company secretary and a treasurer and, a chairman. You need to have those office holders, in order to have a, you know, a legal constitution. So, a key area where governance and growth kind of fall down is that decision making, you know, power.
00:05:56:04 – 00:06:32:04
Scott Sanders
So, so when you get to a size where, where the governance, the governance structure is actually making decisions about ministry, and actually they’re not close enough to ministry to be able to make those decisions, which, again, the governance structure can still set. The bands make those decisions. But the problem with your governance structure could be that you just don’t have good, information flows between, you know, the ministry on the ground and those doing ministry and, and those who, have the responsibility for making those, you know, the decision, you know, so it could be it could be a solve step in terms of just helping, you know, helping a bit
00:06:32:04 – 00:06:34:03
Scott Sanders
of information flows and decision making flows.
00:06:34:04 – 00:06:55:15
Derek Hanna
Absolutely. It could be as well. Simple as, you know, like in Presbyterian Church on, the Presbyterian Church in, in, in Queensland. But, the number of bills you have to have is three in order to have a functioning session. But if you’ve got only three elders in your church’s 500 people, it’s actually really hard to care for people and have oversight of ministries within that.
00:06:55:15 – 00:07:14:14
Derek Hanna
So there’s a there’s a governance question within the how many elders should we have? How should the committee management be within there? There is a there’s a scaling question within there. But you’re right. Besides, well, there’s a system question in there. There’s a, information flow question in there. And often we’re yeah, often we’re not paying attention.
00:07:14:15 – 00:07:15:01
Derek Hanna
It.
00:07:15:03 – 00:07:21:02
Scott Sanders
So when in Scripture do we see governance serving gospel growth or maybe getting in the way of it.
00:07:21:08 – 00:07:40:00
Derek Hanna
Yeah. Yeah. Well, there’s a classic ones execs, and the apostles kind of that restructuring, you know, we need to be giving ourselves over to the preaching of the word. And so, deacons, that kind of that role is, is created there in some way. However, if you want to read that, but yet certainly they separate out function, within.
00:07:40:00 – 00:07:43:17
Scott Sanders
That those word and the prayer and those are responsible for serving.
00:07:43:17 – 00:08:03:20
Derek Hanna
Yeah. Not as if people can’t cross over in that, but just there’s there’s roles within the 15 Jerusalem Council, the inclusion of Gentiles within that. That was a moment of what does it look like actually for us as a church to function internally, given our theological position on salvation and inclusion and the church and who we are as God’s gathered people?
00:08:03:22 – 00:08:20:05
Derek Hanna
So there certainly was a a meeting of minds to work at. How do we function and how do we speak about these things that that impact what you touched on before? Is it it’s more than the subtle, but there is an information flow is a communication process. No, no, this is what the gospel is. This is what it means for us.
00:08:20:05 – 00:08:48:21
Derek Hanna
And so this is how we need to speak about happenings. 15 I would push into Titus as well. So Paul instructs, Timothy, taught us to appoint elders in every town. So it’s indicative there as well that Titus hasn’t or it hasn’t happened. Not that it’s Thomas’s fault there. But the purpose there is. So it is, well, well-ordered biblical church with is now the Presbyterian image is coming up plural elders within there over time.
00:08:48:21 – 00:09:06:24
Derek Hanna
There’s, you don’t plant with multiple elders in that case, when it’s purely, mis theological age that that Paul has been doing, you don’t just but for him, a well-ordered church, good governance within church that reflect his ecclesiology, convictions are moving towards appointing elders within that space.
00:09:07:01 – 00:09:26:20
Scott Sanders
Yeah. What about, Paul and Paul and Barnabas and their kind of, division over? Over John. Mark, you know, like, would you say or say, you know, there’s a hey, who do we include on our on our planting team? You know, you get the rise of denominations maybe from that moment there. But you don’t get the rise of generations until.
00:09:26:22 – 00:09:47:12
Scott Sanders
Yeah, obviously, the Reformation. Reformation. But but he’s he’s two ladies who have a different ministry, you know, ministry philosophy. Now that we’re talking about a person, he. Yeah, but a different ministry philosophy. And they they’re, they’re happy to, you know, to divide, to separate and guy. Great. You gotta you gotta do your missionary journey. I gotta do my missionary journey.
00:09:47:14 – 00:10:05:18
Derek Hanna
Yeah, I’m sure they did ministry in very different ways, didn’t they? I’m not sure. Like Ecclesia logically. Well, I’m not sure that they were thinking in exactly the terms of. We would think that, but I’m sure they had convictions about what the local church like. But yeah, it was probably a governance issue, amongst other issues, that that began to separate them.
00:10:05:18 – 00:10:07:22
Derek Hanna
And they were like.
00:10:07:24 – 00:10:21:15
Scott Sanders
So, let’s kind of push into a bit of detail. If someone looked at your budget, you know, how how is that, I guess, an indicator of, of health, an indicator of, you know, mission or maintenance.
00:10:21:17 – 00:10:40:12
Derek Hanna
Yeah. I was talking to someone the other day who, were talking about how do you how do you work at, within a church where their priorities are and often the budget will tell you, a number of those things, within that. But, what’s your question? Your question is, how do those things reflect?
00:10:40:12 – 00:11:00:01
Scott Sanders
Yeah. Well, how do you use it as litmus test? I mean, let me push, you know, how do you actually identify if governance is a problem in your church? You know, what are the what are the signs that you know, should start to you should start going, okay. Yep. I can see there’s a there’s a problem here that we’re going to have to start, you know, asking some asking some questions and then making some changes.
00:11:00:01 – 00:11:01:10
Scott Sanders
Yeah.
00:11:01:12 – 00:11:19:06
Derek Hanna
Yeah, that’s a good question. And at some level it’s easy because I think, how do I know if something’s broken in my church? Well, people aren’t going to be like Christ and people aren’t becoming Christians. Very I would argue that’s very simple. I don’t want to say, you know, unless you see the overwhelming fruit of all those things all the time, there’s something inherently broken.
00:11:19:08 – 00:11:44:01
Derek Hanna
But I think they’re the litmus test, aren’t they? To say, something’s not going right. Our purpose is to see people become like Christ and, come to know him. And so if there are things within the church that are inhibiting, then whether it’s, you know, faulty theological positions or whether it’s the way in which we have internally decided to, structure selves, including governance, they they’re the litmus tests.
00:11:44:01 – 00:11:54:23
Derek Hanna
Absolutely. And so, again, how many leaders do we have? What’s the set up? Where’s the information flow, who’s looking after and taking responsibility for what things? Their governance questions assemble. Yeah.
00:11:55:00 – 00:12:03:22
Scott Sanders
So, how can the budget thing, you know, be, you know, be a canary in the coal mine?
00:12:03:24 – 00:12:12:00
Derek Hanna
Yeah. I suppose if you look at. Yeah, I don’t know. Will you give me obvious. Yeah. Let me click my thoughts, Scott. Come on. Well, I.
00:12:12:02 – 00:12:32:19
Scott Sanders
Think it was for example, just, just doing the exercise of how much, how much money are we putting towards, you know, mission. Yeah. So maybe looking at you staffing, you staffing budget, how much time we allocating in staff, looking at you, pulling at you, meeting you, meeting minutes, of, you know, just meetings and maybe deacons meetings.
00:12:32:21 – 00:13:00:01
Scott Sanders
Just doing an analysis of analysis of those to say how much of our meetings are actually spent on, on, I guess, tactical, you know, tactical, governance, you know, governance questions versus strategic, you know, ministry, questions. You could structure your meetings so that your diaconate just looks at property and finance, or your parish council just looks at property finance and you, your elders and your ministry team, just look at the strategic ministry, ministry things.
00:13:00:05 – 00:13:40:13
Scott Sanders
But I do agree that the minister or the ministry team, need to be the interface between those two things so that so that the ministry strategy is driving the, the budget that’s driving also the allocation of resources in terms of staff. And in other places. I think the other litmus test would be, just looking at your your meetings and saying, you know, where have we, where have we had a decision that’s, that’s taken, you know, maybe 2 or 3 meetings now, some, some of the time you do need to spend 2 or 3 meetings because it’s a significant, you know, financial decision or it’s an exceedingly complex
00:13:40:13 – 00:13:57:13
Scott Sanders
problem. We actually do need time to sit with it and, you know, and wrestle it out. But if you’re constantly coming up against, you know, a question that you can’t get an answer on and, you know, there’s there’s a division there, then probably there’s something in your how you’re making decisions or, a lack of clarity.
00:13:57:13 – 00:14:20:16
Scott Sanders
And who actually has responsibility there, or potentially you’ve, you’ve hit a growth barrier and you actually need to hand over that responsibility to, you know, to ministry team members to just make that decision and, and exercise responsibility through that ministry team. So they, they kind of some things that for me kind of guy I I’m starting to see we’ve hit a growth barrier although there’s some, some issues.
00:14:20:22 – 00:14:41:23
Derek Hanna
Yeah. So the governance question then within that. So they, they indicate is it a litmus test that you’re seeing things sliding up a service. The governance question within that is given how given our theological convictions about who we are as a church, how do we internally structure in order to utilize the gifts the body in a way that reflects that?
00:14:42:00 – 00:15:03:14
Derek Hanna
Because I think on the budget question as well, I think they do objectively, you could look at a budget and, and come up with those things. The question is, how do you solve that problem? And I don’t think it’s always that the, the person who is dedicated to the preaching of the word, who’s going to be able to solve that problem, the governance question is how do we internally structure in order to solve those problems, utilizing the gifts to the body.
00:15:03:14 – 00:15:25:21
Derek Hanna
And I think that’s what happens when your governance structure within loads one person, the senior minister, often with the mandate to try and solve all those problems, that’s when you hit blockages. Some people are very good at multitasking and general, but it’s it’s when you growth will cause people to limit complexity, will cause people to hit the limit.
00:15:25:23 – 00:15:40:18
Derek Hanna
And so the governance question at that point is how do we then decentralize for the good of the body in order to keep people growing and nurturing? There’s the governance question me, what are the litmus test? But how do we actually solve it? Within our convictions? That’s a governance.
00:15:40:18 – 00:16:06:23
Scott Sanders
Question. So so what you’re talking about there is, is is a real shift that happens in the shift from, say, you know, elders or an elder, and, and handing of responsibility to ministry team members or, you know, or lie leaders. So, so that process is actually quite a, you know, quite a significant shift. And I guess the conversation I’m having with, with churches of that size where you’re saying, where you’re saying that’s a limiting factor.
00:16:06:24 – 00:16:30:17
Scott Sanders
Yeah. Well, it’s one of the limiting factors in the church. They haven’t actually handed over responsibility, responsibility to their ministry team. You know, recognizing that even that’s a change management process, you know, was in with pride through with pride through the role. And we’ve also had responsibilities in eldership for, you know, significant ministries. But they’re now at a size where we actually need to employ and, and hand over some of those key areas.
00:16:30:19 – 00:17:06:04
Scott Sanders
Again, the the argument. Well, the I cannot be making is, ecclesiology and, and scripturally you actually you are still responsible. It’s is your exercising their responsibility now through, you know, through a ministry team. So he’s a church that’s sort of moving from 200 to 400, you know, or church mindsets moving past that sort of 125 where they’re employing that kind of, you know, their first, their first team member, you know, I guess those are those are sort of two shifts where, well, you’re actually you’re actually changing the dynamic of, of how we’re making decisions because ministries now, you know, we’re now further away from it.
00:17:06:06 – 00:17:28:24
Scott Sanders
Now, it doesn’t mean we ought not still price through the role doesn’t mean we’ve handed over responsibility. It’s just we need to find, different forms that allow us to, have the functions that we’ve, you know, that that we’ve agreed to, you know, from our understanding in a reading in the Bible. But whether you’re Presbyterian, Baptist, you know, or Anglican.
00:17:29:01 – 00:17:45:10
Derek Hanna
Yet inside the within that there’s a, there’s a meat issue. Can I actually do I have the skills. Is it a heart issue that I’m not handing over stuff? I need to grow as a leader in order to do that. There are some things which I need to work out. What? What is actually my role within this structure.
00:17:45:12 – 00:18:07:04
Derek Hanna
So that’s a that’s a decision making governance question. What are the things which I will never give away, in, in any form? That’s a very, very small list. Most people think it’s a massive it’s a it’s a tiny list. But that is trying to work out what who am I within the structure in order to see people nurtured they there’s an ecclesial logical framework that informs my governance at that point.
00:18:07:06 – 00:18:34:09
Scott Sanders
Yep. So probably someone who’s listening in this is thinking, we’ve touched largely on ministry, but what about the legal compliance stuff? So so there’s a whole bunch of legal compliance things like employing staff members, occupational safety safe ministry. You know what I mean? Touching on the faithfulness in service guidelines as well. Again, this is where again, being part of a denomination, a denomination will have lots of these structures and systems set up.
00:18:34:11 – 00:18:56:06
Scott Sanders
But the responsibility and, you know, lands, lands often on the, you know, the eldership or on the, you know, the parish council or the deacons, you know, including the is assigned to say, compliance. You know, the just the need to get your accounts audited and, you know, uploaded into ICI and there’s a whole bunch of those sort of compliance, issues as well.
00:18:56:10 – 00:19:30:21
Scott Sanders
Again, this is another kind of growth barrier in churches as well where whereby a church of a certain size, you can, you can do a lot of those things voluntarily. But you do get to a point where if you’ve got a busy, a busy building which is being rented out lots, if you’ve also got, you know, a, a church budget that moves to sort of paying over $1 million, I, I still haven’t got quite the, you know, quite the limit there yet, but a church budget that then moves over $1 million, there might be the need to actually employ, you know, employ people, and not just outsource it, but actually employ
00:19:30:21 – 00:19:56:19
Scott Sanders
people to take over that responsibility. Again, eldership and parish council and committee of management and deacons will still exercise responsibility. But again, I think it growth bear that you see often in churches is that we’re very unwilling to employ. And so we continue to just keep doing things, you know, voluntarily, which is great for a time. But there is a season where you go, actually, we probably need to invest in a, you know, a bookkeeper or a finance person who’s actually on site.
00:19:56:21 – 00:20:14:03
Scott Sanders
And they get a report saying, we’re going to exercise our responsibility through that person, just like we’d employ a safe ministry coordinator. When our children’s ministry becomes too much for the kids work to, you know, to do as well. There are some, you know, key kind of compliance things that we’ve just got to keep paying attention to.
00:20:14:05 – 00:20:20:16
Derek Hanna
Yeah. Well, first of all, I didn’t know people were listening. So I’ll surprised to hear you say that. Sorry. No, sorry.
00:20:20:16 – 00:20:29:00
Scott Sanders
These are really broad events. Sorry. I know it’s not all. It is all about ministry, but but the, the that ad ministry supports the ministry that needs to take place.
00:20:29:00 – 00:20:53:13
Derek Hanna
It’s the thing for people leading ministries in churches. And this is one is you. You gotta know what your role is in this. Your role is not to understand every little detail. Sometimes you have to. And that’s like for some people, they love that. For some people they hide it. But my role within this is to be the theologian in chief to to love the church in such a way that I bring the gospel to bear in all of these moments, part of it, like child sex, that’s an easy one.
00:20:53:15 – 00:21:13:06
Derek Hanna
We want to love our kids and provide a safe environment for them and the way in which legally we do that, but also morally, ethically we do that is through these avenues. So I need to work out how to do it. So part of it is bring the gospel to bear on on all those things. Part of it is, is loving these, you know, within the structures enough that we free people up to do it.
00:21:13:06 – 00:21:33:12
Derek Hanna
Knowing what part of a body. Romans 12 one Corinthians 12. It doesn’t have to be us, I think is a part of as well. It can’t resent the fact that we’re part of a system that helps us, and often we do resent the fact that we’re part of a system. It might not be great. But we need to own the fact where we’re in denomination, where those things exist and work through it, not against it, reform it where we can.
00:21:33:14 – 00:21:49:02
Derek Hanna
But our role within that has to be to, to love, the desire to have the desire to love people really well within that. And so, yes, bring theology to bear, but work through the systems and reform in the way we need to in order to get to the ends that God is calling us to get to.
00:21:49:04 – 00:21:57:19
Scott Sanders
Okay. Talk about a lot of stuff here, but what’s the one thing that you want to, say about governance and growth? Bears? Look.
00:21:57:19 – 00:22:13:00
Derek Hanna
I’m a broken record on this stuff. I think we have to shape our governance around theology. You know, that convenience. And that’s true for the church itself. And it’s true for us as well. We will be the limiting barrier if governance is just about us. Can’t be.
00:22:13:02 – 00:22:31:20
Scott Sanders
Okay, let’s just open up the toolbox. A couple of helpful resources that I found, useful recently. Murray Cable’s book on eldership, is some really, really helpful stuff where he, he thinks helps people think about form and function. That’s a, a crack a book on that. I encourage you to get a consult.
00:22:31:21 – 00:22:51:01
Scott Sanders
I think a consult, with registrar. Well, with another organization that does consults as well would be a really helpful way to kind of look under the bonnet if if this is an area that you’re seeing actually getting someone to come in and, you know, look at your meetings, have a, have a look at sort of your church and your growth barriers.
00:22:51:03 – 00:23:08:24
Scott Sanders
It’s always a, a useful, conversation to have. And there’s an, a number of books on growth berries out there as well, you know, grab, pushing to the chapter that not only looks at the impact on the church later in the leadership team that needs to change, but also actually thinks about your, your governance structures as well.
00:23:09:03 – 00:23:12:20
Scott Sanders
Most, most of those books will have a chapter on, on that as well. Yeah.
00:23:12:22 – 00:23:28:24
Derek Hanna
I think the other thing I’ll do is reach out to people who, you know, have grappled with this really well and push through the growth barriers, because the devil is in the detail about this stuff. So find people who are theologically maybe similar to the nation who push through those barriers, and unpick what’s happened for them.
00:23:29:01 – 00:23:45:00
Scott Sanders
Yep. Well, if you’ve found this episode helpful, this one could be a really good one to talk about it as a staff team, or potentially to bring to eldership meeting or a parish council meeting. If if you think it’s helpful, be great if you could pass it around. I’m Scott Sanders.
00:23:45:00 – 00:23:45:22
Derek Hanna
I’m Derek kind of.
00:23:45:24 – 00:23:46:14
Scott Sanders
Chat soon.
