If the emotional side of ministry keeps catching you off guard, it’s worth paying attention to what that might reveal about your own emotional intelligence. Scott Sanders and Jo Gibbs look at the practical side of emotional intelligence, why it matters for everyday ministry, and what gets in the way of developing it.
- What low EQ looks like in normal, everyday interactions
- How a leader’s reactions influence the tone of a team
- Why some ministry cultures downplay emotions and how that limits growth
- Ways to spot your own physical and behavioural cues under pressure
- A simple framework for restoring a relationship after you’ve handled something poorly
TOOLBOX:
Ep 330 Why EQ is the Edge Every Leader Needs (Part 1) by Pete Stedman
Ep 331 Why EQ is the Edge Every Leader Needs (Part 2) by Pete Stedman
Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman
Emotional Intelligence 2.0 by Dr. Travis Bradberry and Dr. Jean Greaves
CREDITS:
This episode was brought to you by Quizworx
The One Thing is brought to you by Reach Australia
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For ideas or questions please email [email protected]
Support Reach Australia’s online library
TRANSCRIPT:
The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
Scott Sanders
G’day, I’m Scott Sanders
00:01:24:10 – 00:01:25:15
Jo Gibbs
and I’m Joe Gibbs.
00:01:25:16 – 00:01:46:21
Scott Sanders
Welcome to the one thing a podcast is on to give you one solid practical tip for gospel centered ministry. One thing is brought to you by rich Australia. We want to see thousands of healthy, evangelistic, multiplying churches. And a key part of that is us pressing into, difficult conversations. And today we’re going to be thinking about emotional intelligence.
00:01:46:23 – 00:02:08:07
Scott Sanders
And, the hot topic is really what if you’re the one with that emotional intelligence? And I was just talking with Joe that, when we first kind of, pushed into this as a staff team, it was, Madeline. Madeline. Delia. Derek. Hannah and Gus McKay out on the on the rich Australia team. Yeah. And, I, you know, I went out, went at rush, rushed and got the Goldman book and there’s a little.
00:02:08:11 – 00:02:09:03
Jo Gibbs
So you can do it.
00:02:09:08 – 00:02:26:02
Scott Sanders
Yeah, yeah, let’s do it. And of course in my, you know, in my, you’re thinking, you know, really well, noncompetitive, noncompetitive, you know, just about team self-awareness. And I said, let’s do it. Let’s do the test. And of course, I didn’t come first.
00:02:26:04 – 00:02:27:06
Jo Gibbs
We’re also shocked.
00:02:27:11 – 00:02:48:15
Scott Sanders
I know, I know, and, but it was it was a really helpful thing, to do that acknowledge the strengths, weaknesses in the team. But also one of the great thing about Goldman’s book, really, hopefully, is that, emotional intelligence is an area that you can actually work on. And so, you know, coming out of that test, there’s a whole bunch of things that you can actually, do to, to get better at.
00:02:48:16 – 00:02:48:20
Scott Sanders
So.
00:02:48:20 – 00:02:51:08
Jo Gibbs
And how long ago was that and how have you been working on that?
00:02:51:09 – 00:03:19:06
Scott Sanders
Right. Amazing, amazing, amazing. I’m still not the best on the team, but that’s okay. Teams. Teams have people who, you know, good at things and others who are good at other things. Yeah, but for now, you’ve press play on another episode of The One Thing. What if you’re the one without emotional intelligence? Okay. So Joe, so when people talk about emotional intelligence, what are they actually talking about and why does it matter for someone in leadership or in ministry?
00:03:19:08 – 00:03:43:10
Jo Gibbs
Yeah, I think we’ve had such an increase in people using this term in conversation from everything from that person was too blunt to someone who can’t read the room or they didn’t handle that conflict. Well, I think we notice that when there’s an absence of it, but not necessarily an understanding of what it is. But we’re talking about Daniel Goldman’s model that’s been around for a while, but it’s really split into two areas.
00:03:43:10 – 00:03:47:02
Jo Gibbs
So emotional intelligence arc around yourself.
00:03:47:04 – 00:03:48:05
Scott Sanders
So self-awareness.
00:03:48:05 – 00:04:00:19
Jo Gibbs
Yeah. Understanding what drives you your emotions, those sorts of things and being able to manage them. So awareness and management. And then you’ve got EQ emotional intelligence around others.
00:04:00:19 – 00:04:02:22
Scott Sanders
So social awareness.
00:04:02:22 – 00:04:13:01
Jo Gibbs
Social awareness recognizing understanding the emotions and drives drivers of others. And then being able to not manage those but be able to influence the emotions of others.
00:04:13:01 – 00:04:18:02
Scott Sanders
Yeah. But also recognizing your impact on others as well. So how they how they flow out as well.
00:04:18:02 – 00:04:23:21
Jo Gibbs
Yeah. Because you can think that you’re one way. But in reality whatever’s coming out you need to work with that. Yeah.
00:04:24:02 – 00:04:38:13
Scott Sanders
So you’ve talked about kind of the components of being aware of it. You know, how you feel, how others feel. But then you’ve also talked about the management. So the regulating of your own emotions, being able to work effectively with others. Yeah. Managing conflict well and sparring and all that sort of stuff.
00:04:38:13 – 00:04:43:24
Jo Gibbs
And you can hear how that’s important for any work or any team, but particularly for ministry.
00:04:43:24 – 00:04:58:09
Scott Sanders
So again, we want to give people that gospel centered ministry team. So I guess the question a lot of people are asking, is they listening to these? Well, where can I you know, we can actually use this, you know, where does this actually hit the road? This just seems like, you know, more of that kind of psychological stuff.
00:04:58:09 – 00:05:00:13
Scott Sanders
And yeah. Do I really have the Tom drive another book on that?
00:05:00:14 – 00:05:24:05
Jo Gibbs
Just an app is a really important. Yeah. It’s interesting we ask, the cohorts in the team development program where you would use this, and pretty much the answer comes up as everywhere, like ministry is paperwork. So you’re using it in all the relationships that you have with people in your congregation, with the relationships of the people on your team, with the parish council or your eldership, if you’re not able to do that.
00:05:24:05 – 00:05:58:16
Jo Gibbs
Well, and particularly under pressure, then actually you’re going to end up with a whole bunch of stress in those relationships. So we’re not only talking about pastoral care situations where you need to slow down and care for and be present with people, but just everyday stuff, when that person comes and criticizes you after the service on a Sunday, when you get feedback, whatever it is, if we don’t do this, well, it can impact not only on our ministry effectiveness, but our longevity in ministry as well is just really hurting people.
00:05:58:18 – 00:06:22:07
Scott Sanders
Yeah. I think giving this question to us, but I’m, I don’t know, I’m I’m kind of balking at it. You know, it says as reformed evangelicals, we rightly don’t want to be driven by our emotions. Yeah. And I I’ll push that because I’m like, emotions are kind of how we’ve been made and why. Yeah. As God’s children and, we need to feel them and understand them and, you know, in your, in your anger do not sin.
00:06:22:07 – 00:06:39:05
Scott Sanders
Yeah. So there’s a, there’s a recognition by Paul. Yeah. That we’re going to get angry. Yeah. But there’s a rightful response to manage and, you know, and use our emotions. Well, so is it. Yeah, I’m kind of. I’m going. There’s a record issue. We’ve got emotions, but we want to be regulating those emotions. Managing those emotions.
00:06:39:10 – 00:07:01:14
Jo Gibbs
Yeah, but I think it’s reformed evangelicals. We’re very wary of emotions because we don’t rightly. We don’t want to be driven by them. We actually want to be, our, our will, our actions, our lives to be shaped by God’s truth. But I think because of that wariness, we often just don’t even talk about emotions. So we don’t have an understanding of our emotions.
00:07:01:14 – 00:07:23:15
Jo Gibbs
We don’t have a vocabulary for talking about our emotions. We don’t even have rhythms in place that would help us to not only understand, but manage those emotions. So actually paying attention to emotions in this way is helpful because once you understand them, can recognize them, then you can actually manage them, not be driven by them. But I think sometimes we throw the baby out with the bathwater.
00:07:23:16 – 00:07:24:09
Jo Gibbs
So yeah.
00:07:24:09 – 00:07:40:21
Scott Sanders
So one of the things we do in our gospel coaching training is, is, you know, I give our coaches, an emotion and emotion. We also talk about the seven primary emotions, but also then all the other emotions that come off. I mean, I always make the joking, I’ve got two emotions, you know, anger, frustration.
00:07:40:23 – 00:07:43:03
Jo Gibbs
That’s it for this.
00:07:43:05 – 00:08:00:14
Scott Sanders
Those two. Okay. Maybe when I’m watching a movie, a better father son dynamic, but that’s about it. You know, any time or if it’s a sporting movie and, you know, a really sad things happen, you know, but there’s always triumph. How much of how much the ministry is shaped by the emotional tone of the leader?
00:08:00:16 – 00:08:11:23
Scott Sanders
Yeah. You know, so can you can you help us think through situations where, I guess the pastor’s emotions set up an anxious or a critical atmosphere in church life?
00:08:12:03 – 00:08:38:10
Jo Gibbs
Yeah. So the pastor is usually the leader in a context. And so they’re setting the tone for any setting, including the church. This is the main person that people are looking to, to see what the Christian life looks like, to see what godly leadership looks like as that person, is looking to Christ. So the whole congregation and the the rest of the ministry team are learning from them how to live, including under pressure.
00:08:38:12 – 00:09:07:21
Jo Gibbs
So if they’re, setting an anxious or a very critical atmosphere all the time, people will learn from that. They’ll be modeling themselves off that. And so it’s really important for the leader to be aware of that ripple effect, that their own tone, their own emotional intelligence has that that tone, that anxiety. And I say that in the general kind of, sense can be contagious to others as well.
00:09:08:00 – 00:09:32:20
Jo Gibbs
So imagine the leader, when we do a fire evacuation. What’s the big thing when you’re giving instructions? It’s to use a calm voice, clear instructions, so that people will calmly pick up, you know, head out, not pick up their things, but respond in an orderly way. Imagine the person who yells out in a stressed voice, you know, Ron, people pick up that anxiety.
00:09:32:20 – 00:09:42:15
Jo Gibbs
They pick up that, and it creates panic. So we think about that for a fire evacuation, but we don’t realize that it happens in other spheres of our lives so that it’s real.
00:09:42:15 – 00:10:03:15
Scott Sanders
It’s really funny because, last night I was watching my daughter play Nepal, and, and the girl attack, had an injury. So I daughter passed to the ball and she landed awkwardly. Correct. And I hit the ground crying out in pain. Now, in in an emergency situation, my family, I am the most calm person. So.
00:10:03:18 – 00:10:20:00
Scott Sanders
Yeah. Made a lake, put in a put in a in a, in a recovery position, you know, squeezed a hand, took down an emotion level as people go, you know, got it, got it, got it. Excellent. But but it’s it’s just it what what’s really interesting is I could do. I could do that. I’m just so calm, like.
00:10:20:00 – 00:10:29:10
Scott Sanders
And I regulate my voice. I don’t even yell. But there’s just so many other situations where, you know, I’m like, I go from 0 to 100, you know, particularly.
00:10:29:12 – 00:10:30:12
Jo Gibbs
In important one of a second.
00:10:30:12 – 00:10:43:17
Scott Sanders
Particularly with that side door to where we’re having an argument. I’ll just meet her emotion straight away and. Yeah, you know, and the response, that adult response I the wrong responses to, is this idea. But it’s really interesting where I’m, I’m self-aware of that.
00:10:43:18 – 00:10:44:09
Jo Gibbs
Can I ask.
00:10:44:10 – 00:11:02:08
Scott Sanders
What’s the difference? Yeah. Know. It’s it’s, I think it might be a trained response. Yeah. Because I’ve, I’ve been involved with the surf club for 15 years and, and so it’s a try and response. And it’s probably a response in my, in my family, but because, hey, this is not about session on work.
00:11:02:09 – 00:11:21:06
Jo Gibbs
And nobody’s interested in hearing people in the defense forces talking about how they respond to being shot at or like some kind of high anxiety situation, but they’ve been trained to respond to it. First responders. Yeah. So often it is actually about that preparation that you do to know how to respond. Yes. Well, yeah. Nothing.
00:11:21:07 – 00:11:40:00
Scott Sanders
So so hypothetically, Joe, if you were coaching me, how how would you figure out whether or not I actually have good emotional intelligence or not? What would you be looking for? You know, in a coaching conversation as you’re working with one of the team, you know, team leaders or team members in the, in the team development program?
00:11:40:01 – 00:12:00:01
Jo Gibbs
Yeah. So I think if you’re talking about that EQ self self-awareness, self-management, yeah, I’d be looking for that good self-awareness to start with. So I’d be looking for someone who has an honesty about themselves and a humility someone who’s kind of comfortable in their own skin, who knows they’re not perfect, but they know what sets them off.
00:12:00:03 – 00:12:21:13
Jo Gibbs
They know what their strengths are, someone who can recognize when they’re under stress or feeling strong emotions. Who knows? Physical indicators in their body, knows what to look for, knows what their weaknesses are, and is aware when they’re picking up on the emotions of other people. So if someone’s angry with them, they’re able to calm themselves down.
00:12:21:15 – 00:12:44:08
Jo Gibbs
Not, you know, not picking up that anger. Anger, and also not any awareness of how I’m feeling comfortable, uncomfortable, emotion, neutral, whatever. But what is connected to or caused by so is not being driven by a bad meeting that happened in the morning, and it’s still got that energy in their system in the afternoon and can’t quite put their finger on why that’s happening for them.
00:12:44:10 – 00:12:55:08
Jo Gibbs
But they’ve been able to identify that they’ve, noticed the increase in energy and they’ve taken some time to notice what it was and to be able to reflect on that, manage that.
00:12:55:10 – 00:13:14:02
Scott Sanders
And and actually, this is where having, you know, having a coach can be actually quite helpful. Like, I can remember talking with, with one of my, with one of my coaches and as we were, reflecting on a, on a situation with the staff member, she just helpfully, you know, pointed out, are you are you aware of your emotion?
00:13:14:02 – 00:13:31:19
Scott Sanders
Are you aware of how your body has changed? You’re aware of how you you’ve you know, you’ve just stood up and taken the room. Yes. Are you aware of how, like, just in this moment, I even just reflecting on this situation, your whole your whole manner and and it was like really? I was just like, I was not aware of that.
00:13:31:21 – 00:13:37:08
Scott Sanders
And her just kind of alerting me to that, you know, you know, in our supervision conversation, it’s really quite, Yeah. Everything.
00:13:37:13 – 00:13:59:04
Jo Gibbs
And you can hear how in that how others perceive you say, back from others and being able to learn from that, but also that reflection and insight, but also just an understanding of history, previous experiences, family origin, also context issues that might caused you to react. So someone who’s got that kind of awareness great a key self. Yeah.
00:13:59:06 – 00:14:12:19
Scott Sanders
So it’s really I think it’s really often important for the lead at actually leading this way and actually ask for that. You know, ask that feedback, seek it out, and do the hard work of listening, you know, listening as well, in that. What? Yeah.
00:14:12:21 – 00:14:32:01
Jo Gibbs
Can I say as well, that’s the, awareness. But there’s also that management. So because I’ve got that awareness is going to be a bigger gap between their impulse and how they respond. And they’re not going to be driven by their emotions or desires. They’re not going to pick up that anger from the other person and then end up yelling at them.
00:14:32:03 – 00:14:54:00
Jo Gibbs
They’re able to calm themselves down, think about how they respond or they’re able to take themself out of the situation. I remember hearing a senior pastor during Covid who wasn’t doing well, who had explained that to their team, and said, you know, this is causing stress for me. I need to step back a bit. That’s that’s really good emotional intelligence and being able to communicate that to others, it’s incredible.
00:14:54:02 – 00:15:07:15
Scott Sanders
So Joe, be really helpful, just as we kind of, land the conversation. What are some common barriers to actually self-awareness? And particularly in ministry? Why do we find it hard to, you know, grow in this area?
00:15:07:17 – 00:15:41:20
Jo Gibbs
Yeah. So, the book Resilient Ministry is really helpful on this. Great. Got a great couple of chapters in there. So a couple of things I point out. One is, people pleasing. So really basically ignoring your own feelings or priorities in order to make other people happy. So sometimes that’s from a desire to avoid conflict. I think another one’s lack of reflection Ministry is so busy that just even having the time to slow down, to notice your feelings that you just don’t have that often, your diaries full, you’re moving from one thing to the other.
00:15:41:22 – 00:15:54:01
Jo Gibbs
So that lack of reflection during the day, but also just not having a regular process for that, I could imagine at the end of the week being able to say what was the really hard thing from this week, time to reflect on it and get insight from.
00:15:54:01 – 00:15:59:08
Scott Sanders
So that’s where journaling can be helpful. That’s where, yeah, having coaching conversation and conversation. Yeah.
00:15:59:10 – 00:16:19:01
Jo Gibbs
And or just even having a series of questions that you ask yourself. So you wanting that insight from it, emotion faking. So putting on kind of a postural persona or a mask, but you’ve got it all together all the time not wanting to come across as needy or weak. So that’s another way that we kind of suppress our emotions.
00:16:19:03 – 00:16:41:08
Jo Gibbs
But the other one that I’ve touched on is conflict of same conflict is an anomaly or an intrusion. So avoiding hard conversations, avoiding some people, like, you know, that reaction you might get when someone sent you an email and just seeing their name, you thinking, or avoiding phone calls with people, avoiding feedback, conversations, hoping the problems will go away.
00:16:41:10 – 00:16:57:24
Jo Gibbs
All of those things are unhelpful and unhealthy. And don’t help you grow in emotional intelligence that, yeah, there’s so much more in this area. We haven’t even talked about social awareness so much or relationship management, but just in terms of your own self-awareness that these are important things.
00:16:57:24 – 00:17:18:11
Scott Sanders
So I want to finish with, again, okay, not not hypothetical, but, sort of messed up emotionally with someone I’ve snapped, you know, I’ve overreacted or I’ve shut them down. Yeah. I’ve said something to sharp in the moment. Yeah. What’s the emotionally intelligent way to repair that again? Hypothetically speaking.
00:17:18:13 – 00:17:42:12
Jo Gibbs
Hypothetically, I think this is moving into the area of kind of biblical peacemaking in a way, conflict growing through conflict. So I would say spend time with God first. Really often our conflict becomes purely horizontal in the anxiety that we feel over that. So just spending some time with God in prayer, in his word, you know, what’s God doing in this situation?
00:17:42:12 – 00:18:01:09
Jo Gibbs
How can I please and honor God in this situation? How can I, display God’s wisdom and compassion and love in this situation? So really asking that, because I think when we leave God out, we tend to get stuck doing the same thing or deciding, I’m not going to apologize to that person and just moving on.
00:18:01:11 – 00:18:26:00
Jo Gibbs
I say, hey, can convicted of really important things and then spending some time on yourself, just doing that, taking the plank out of your own eye first, thinking about your own contribution to what’s happened. So asking, you know, spending time in the Bible, asking spiritually mature friend to help you spot give you feedback, spot your feelings so that you can process with what has happened.
00:18:26:00 – 00:18:45:15
Jo Gibbs
First, worked out what was driving you? What was it? Was it thought it was 40 degrees and it just finished preaching at church. And that’s, you know, this is a weak spot for you or is it an ongoing history with the person? What what’s triggering you about that? And is there an area to repent of, to confess sin, to repent of?
00:18:45:17 – 00:19:12:21
Jo Gibbs
And is there something to learn from this? You know, is is this the third hard conversation you’ve had with someone and it’s still not going well? So what what needs to change? Is there context, history, wiring issues in there? And then taking responsibility for that and saying, you know, even if it was them, they were 98% of it owning fully your, your to your 2% owning fully that part in it and taking the initiative for restoring.
00:19:12:21 – 00:19:31:04
Jo Gibbs
If you are in ministry, it really is in terms of that modeling, the initiative is on you to take that initiative for restoring. There’s lots of great resources around this. Learning to give a good apology. Not a bad one. Yeah, there’s a whole bunch of things that you can learn that are around that are really helpful to do that.
00:19:31:04 – 00:19:48:23
Scott Sanders
Well, it’s really important if, if this is an issue, an issue for you, it may, may be helpful for you to seek professional support. So there’s lots of stuff we’ve touched on here as well. Yeah, very useful to have a coaching relationship or, something that would be formal, so you can get a better sense of it.
00:19:49:03 – 00:20:03:16
Scott Sanders
There’s a whole bunch of resources out there you can do, but, but it may if this is an area that you guys have really got to work on, this could be helpful to go, seek out some professional, support on that. Yeah. So, Joe, as we finish, what’s the one thing that I can do to improve my IQ each week?
00:20:03:18 – 00:20:24:13
Jo Gibbs
I think just that recognition as a reformed evangelicals, God has created us with emotions. These are things to avoid. They can actually tell us helpful things about ourselves and about others. We don’t want to be driven by emotions. We want to pay attention to them. But just take time each week to notice what’s happening for you. Have a point in your diary where you just say, how am I feeling today?
00:20:24:15 – 00:20:32:03
Jo Gibbs
What’s that feeling? What’s it connected to? And just get regularly in that, identifying emotion so you can reflect and go.
00:20:32:05 – 00:20:52:11
Scott Sanders
Awesome. Well, let’s, unpack the toolbox. We’ve got a couple of episodes from the vault. Pete Stedman talking about the importance of, IQ. For every later, episode 330 and 31, we’ll put a link in the show notes that, we talked about a couple of books, Emotional Intelligence by Goleman and Emotional Intelligence 2.0 by Brad being Graves.
00:20:52:13 – 00:20:59:19
Scott Sanders
That one is a really useful one because that has the free test in it, and it’s a test that you can take again to show your growth and change.
00:20:59:19 – 00:21:02:10
Jo Gibbs
And you can send your results to Scott and compare how you wait.
00:21:02:10 – 00:21:18:05
Scott Sanders
Right. But also, I think the one of the key things on that is it actually gives you a whole bunch of resources to, to, to grow in it. So one of the ones for me, you know, in terms of assessing and understanding people’s emotions and feelings was to, you know, watch a bunch of movies and identify the feelings that are present in that.
00:21:18:06 – 00:21:22:16
Scott Sanders
I can always remember again, that’s a, that’s a really useful,
00:21:22:18 – 00:21:30:01
Jo Gibbs
Even when you’re reading the Bible noticing what is there an emotion present? Is that driving people, like, just really interesting?
00:21:30:03 – 00:21:45:18
Scott Sanders
Awesome. If you think this is a helpful episode, share it. Pass it around. Might want to listen to it with others as well. I’m Scott sanders, I’m Joe Gibbs. Jetson I got.
