When your senior pastor isn’t leading — or at least, not leading well — what should you actually do? Today we drill into that tension without sugarcoating it. It’s not just about calling someone out, but about understanding yourself, your role, and how to navigate tricky dynamics without blowing things up or burning out.
- How your own wiring shapes the frustration you feel
- Clear signs of an actual leadership gap, not just normal friction
- Why senior leaders may stall under pressure
- The unavoidable paradoxes built into second-chair roles
- How to challenge a call without turning it personal
- When and how to raise concerns so the conversation stays productive
TOOLBOX:
Leading from the Second Chair by Mike Bonem and Roger Patterson
How to Lead When You’re Not in Charge by Clay Scroggins
Paul Harrington’s talk on Humility in Team Ministry Part 1
Paul Harrington’s talk on Humility in Team Ministry Part 2
CREDITS:
This episode was brought to you by Safe Ministry Check
The One Thing is brought to you by Reach Australia
To pray for Reach Australia, join our WhatsApp Group
For ideas or questions please email [email protected]
Support Reach Australia’s online library
TRANSCRIPT:
The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
00:00:00:00 – 00:00:08:03
Scott Sanders
What’s that? The test team’s been there. It was announced at 12:00. Really? Big changes where the rules in Constance missed out. Yep. You are in charge, I come.
00:00:08:06 – 00:00:14:03
Jo Gibbs
Very excited to support you. It’s been my face.
00:00:14:05 – 00:00:31:16
Scott Sanders
We’ve got a like. How are you leaving? Get started. Because you don’t wanna, you know, to mess with that. Yeah. Well, I’m just saying, you know, wanna make noise while we’re moving around, right? Okay.
00:00:31:18 – 00:00:33:01
Scott Sanders
Good. I’m Scott sanders.
00:00:33:01 – 00:00:33:21
Jo Gibbs
I’m Joe Gibbs.
00:00:33:22 – 00:00:51:22
Scott Sanders
Welcome to the one thing a podcast is on to give you one solid practical tip for gospel centered ministry. One thing is brought to you by Reach Australia. We want to see thousands of healthy, evangelistic and multiplying churches. Now, Joe, we, today are going to be talking about, about, leading up. What do you do when you lead?
00:00:51:22 – 00:00:59:05
Scott Sanders
It doesn’t lead. This is a key area that you kind of push into in the team development program. You’ve just finished another cohort over in Perth. Yeah.
00:00:59:06 – 00:01:04:19
Jo Gibbs
It’s awesome. Five churches in Perth and beautiful place to visit, by the way. Yeah, but just fantastic.
00:01:04:23 – 00:01:24:15
Scott Sanders
We’re pressing into a, you know, an awkward question, but a good discussion that needs to be had in teams. So let’s jump right into it for now. You’ve press play on another episode of The One Thing what to do when your leader doesn’t lead. So, Joe, I guess, this is quite a could be quite a sensitive area.
00:01:24:15 – 00:01:31:06
Scott Sanders
It’s an area probably that teams don’t really want to talk about. But how do you actually know when your senior leader isn’t leading?
00:01:31:08 – 00:01:50:19
Jo Gibbs
Well, can I start? Can I preface this with, reach Australia? We’ve really committed to the leadership and supporting and doing everything we can to support the leadership of the senior pastor. So don’t take criticism from us. Help here. Us really wanting to push into this area to really equip, senior pastors. Second challenge is to do this better.
00:01:50:19 – 00:01:52:08
Jo Gibbs
So just hear that commitment to.
00:01:52:08 – 00:01:57:20
Scott Sanders
Say, this is not this is not an opportunity for Joe to point out all the things in my leadership, either that they just.
00:01:57:22 – 00:02:00:23
Jo Gibbs
I I’ve got a list here that while we’re recording.
00:02:01:00 – 00:02:12:18
Scott Sanders
But it is actually a really helpful first question because how do you know if it’s not just my frustration, my impatience, my personality and just how I like doing things? How do you actually get a sense of. Yeah, this is a problem with the senior leader.
00:02:12:19 – 00:02:35:05
Jo Gibbs
Yeah. So there could be two things at play. It could be. Actually, you is the second chair leader. Lynch. And he talks about the fundamental attribution error, which is we attribute others annoying behavior to their character character flaws. While we say our own annoying behavior is actually our environment. So we basically don’t give other people the benefit of the doubt that we give ourselves.
00:02:35:07 – 00:02:35:15
Jo Gibbs
And.
00:02:35:15 – 00:02:42:23
Scott Sanders
Can I what I’m what I’m hearing you say is that means we don’t pull the log out of our own or. Nah, I can’t just just check if I’m understanding.
00:02:42:23 – 00:02:58:08
Jo Gibbs
Yeah, I know lots of big words there, but, you know, like the driver who catches us, we’re like, you’re an idiot. But if we do the same thing, it’s like, oh, I’ve had a bad day. I’m a bit tired, that kind of thing. I think I should also just, when you’re not in that first chair role, it’s easy to see what the issues are.
00:02:58:08 – 00:03:02:10
Jo Gibbs
It’s a bit like hindsight is kind of easy, and the kind of the cheap seats sometimes.
00:03:02:13 – 00:03:10:16
Scott Sanders
So it’s it’s helpful to kind of understand and put yourself in the shoes of the leader and say, hey, they’ve got other decisions as other pressures. I don’t have those. Yeah.
00:03:10:20 – 00:03:28:20
Jo Gibbs
And they’re also in the thick of things. So sometimes they’re not able to make the wisest decision just because of the amount of information and all of the things that are happening at the same time. I think sometimes it’s us not keeping short accounts and actually going. When the issue is smaller, we wait until it builds up and then we’re like.
00:03:29:01 – 00:03:30:00
Scott Sanders
These guys do this.
00:03:30:00 – 00:03:49:23
Jo Gibbs
Yes. Yeah, right. And so raising things when they’re small. But also I think sometimes and we cover this in the team development program, not having a shared model. So we don’t race things or they become very personal rather than actually having a model that you can point to that’s neutral or it could be is a second later.
00:03:49:23 – 00:04:05:07
Jo Gibbs
I’ve just read this great book on leadership, and I just expect my senior later to be doing it for me. It points out flaws rather than just saying, you know what, I’ve read this book. Let’s talk about it as a model together. I can’t they can’t be mind readers.
00:04:05:07 – 00:04:19:20
Scott Sanders
So when you say shared model, do you mean a shared understanding of kind of how we lead, what leadership is, how we make decisions? Or do you mean it’s like a ministry philosophy? You know, there’s a there’s a fundamental difference in how kind of how we view and see ministry or it’s a bit of both.
00:04:19:23 – 00:04:38:10
Jo Gibbs
I could be a bit of both, but I was really thinking, you know, even, for example, in your direct report meetings, you went to ones like just having a discussion about what happens in that space. I think we assume that everyone knows what that is. You might be frustrated with those meetings that you’re having with your senior pastor, but if you ever sat down and talked about whose agenda is it?
00:04:38:11 – 00:04:51:01
Jo Gibbs
Who’s responsible for this meeting? You know what? What preparation do we all do? What’s the purpose of it? I think we just sometimes make some assumptions and then if someone’s not mind moderating for us, then we think they’re a bad like.
00:04:51:02 – 00:05:04:14
Scott Sanders
So these are we’re just having good some good healthy culture. You give feedback. We have these conversations. We push into problems. Yeah. There’s an openness from, you know, both the leader and the, and the follower to be able to ask, you know, can we do this better?
00:05:04:16 – 00:05:21:22
Jo Gibbs
Yeah. And I think we often have the task conversation we’re talking about logistics, the things we’re working on. And when you don’t actually have a conversation about the process or about the conversation itself. So actually stopping every so often to say, how are we going working together? What do we need to shift about these other assumptions that are at play.
00:05:21:22 – 00:05:28:22
Jo Gibbs
So we don’t have those conversations. Sometimes it’s just different wiring, temperament, strengths, gifts, leadership.
00:05:28:22 – 00:05:51:16
Scott Sanders
To acknowledge and just go that’s okay. Yeah. But that becomes in a kind of a tension that we’ve got to manage. Yes. It’s not a, it’s not a problem with you as the leader or as a second chair. There’s just this is how we’ve we’ve got to understand that. And again, I think it’s on the, the leader often to be aware of, you know, the personality, the wiring, the differences and, and shift and change their leadership, you know, style.
00:05:51:16 – 00:05:57:13
Scott Sanders
They’re the ones who should be taking the responsibility. Is my is my sense is. Guess. What are you doing?
00:05:57:13 – 00:06:22:23
Jo Gibbs
Well, are you saying the senior leader witnessing say. Yeah. Yeah, but also the second chair laid out, like, if they if they’re wanting to actually work effectively together, they’re keen to support their senior leader taking the time to understand this, emulate, how do they work? What what works for them in terms of their energy, how you how you pitch things, a whole bunch of stuff, but just not expecting that the senior leader will have every gift, every competency.
00:06:22:23 – 00:06:24:08
Jo Gibbs
That’s actually why we need to take.
00:06:24:10 – 00:06:33:03
Scott Sanders
Yeah. So I can just push into that because, obviously you, you know, you work with very, talented people. They’re obviously very, very gifted.
00:06:33:05 – 00:06:37:15
Jo Gibbs
Most of them.
00:06:37:17 – 00:06:52:11
Scott Sanders
But, why why is it. Yeah. Well, I guess why is it the way is as follows. Why do we have this expectation that our leaders will have everything? You know what? Why is there a sense that we just bring that as human beings into, you know, the leadership tasks that we expect? It’ll be all things. Yeah.
00:06:52:12 – 00:07:09:21
Jo Gibbs
I think particularly we expect that they’ll be everything I think is good about leadership. So my way of doing things, so I think we can tend to do that too. Puppy syndrome, like we just tend to be very critical of people above us, whether that’s government, whether that’s leadership. So I think we can come with that lens.
00:07:09:21 – 00:07:29:04
Jo Gibbs
We’re not as a culture in a society where we’re respectful and submissive. We really expect leadership to be earned in a way I bet earnt on our terms. So I think there’s a whole bunch of things and you can hear in that some identity and heart issues as well. So that is a possible component for the second chair later.
00:07:29:07 – 00:07:39:01
Jo Gibbs
So this is just some of the things of the long list of things that could be contributing to that, criticism of the leader, that they’re not doing a good job just starting with yourself.
00:07:39:01 – 00:07:57:23
Scott Sanders
Yeah. So really important to ask, ask that question of yourself as you’re wrestling with this and probably have a conversation with someone, you know, someone else to, to get your feelings, thoughts. But also have that conversation with the senior leader as well. Yeah. To to wrestle with it. So, if it is a reality and you’ve done that work of thinking about yourself.
00:07:57:23 – 00:08:01:17
Scott Sanders
Yes. What can be some other reasons why this still happens?
00:08:01:19 – 00:08:29:07
Jo Gibbs
Yeah, a whole bunch of reasons why this might be the case. So it could be structural that the simulator just has too many direct reports, so they’re not able to manage all the responsibilities and reporting and information stuff. So they could be spread over to many different areas. They don’t have the support they need. As as churches in Australia, we generally don’t provide the admin ministry support, staffing ratios that really needs to, enable senior leaders to function.
00:08:29:09 – 00:08:54:12
Jo Gibbs
It could be that the senior leader hasn’t grown into and is really inhabiting the leadership role that they’ve taken on. And we talk about this with the leadership pipeline. This shifts in time and value to all of those sorts of things. The senior leader might still be trying to operate and, previous training, gifting things that they’ve done haven’t made that shift for themselves.
00:08:54:12 – 00:09:11:15
Scott Sanders
And I think there is a there is a complexity in church life where you often, you often have to have multiple hats as a ministry staff member and as a leader, where you where you actually are inhabiting the team member space. Yeah. And and the team leader space and the ministry department and space and so knowing and taking off those as hats.
00:09:11:15 – 00:09:17:22
Scott Sanders
But yeah, also having that self-assessment as a leader to I do need to grow my, my skills in, in an area is really cool.
00:09:18:01 – 00:09:37:17
Jo Gibbs
That’s why things like the leadership development program not as an Add but a real thing because it is a very specific skill set that comes that is required for a senior leader. But sometimes it’s also that, the senior leader may not be letting go of things that they love if they’ve been responsible for the missionary before, they’ve employed someone to that area.
00:09:37:21 – 00:09:43:06
Jo Gibbs
It might be that they’re micromanaging or they just, you know, this is an area they really love spending time in.
00:09:43:08 – 00:09:48:00
Scott Sanders
You’ve got to grow in your conscience in competence, as I often talk about engaging with people.
00:09:48:02 – 00:09:49:03
Jo Gibbs
Yes. So that.
00:09:49:03 – 00:09:58:11
Scott Sanders
Unconsciously incompetent. Yes. And not not running down and, you know, chasing down areas and being the, you know, the expert on any of these things, you actually got to allow others to.
00:09:58:13 – 00:10:25:14
Jo Gibbs
Yeah, to step into that space. So it could be a bunch of those things. It could be identity issues, heart issues. Similarly for the senior leader, can look like, competition. It could look like unhealthy, reactive responses to things. But I’ve also seen sometimes it’s mental health issues or wellbeing issues for the senior leader. Or it can be a lack of competence in a particular skill set in leadership, in managing a team to a whole bunch of things.
00:10:25:14 – 00:10:32:04
Jo Gibbs
But it can be so you can hear how this is such an important conversation, because there’s so many different ways that this can happen.
00:10:32:08 – 00:10:49:04
Scott Sanders
So there’s a key resource, you know, that always point people to when, you know, I have this conversation with an assistant or a team member. It’s, you know, the book leading from the second chair, the author speaks about some hot questions that we need to ask. And you, you know, explain those for us briefly.
00:10:49:07 – 00:11:10:04
Jo Gibbs
Yeah. I think one of the strengths of the book is that he raises some kind of paradoxes or tensions for the second later. So he talks about the subordinate leader paradox. I don’t love the words subordinate. Maybe follow up lead a paradox. The team need. Team members need to lead in their ministry areas, but at the same time they’re answerable to the senior pastor.
00:11:10:04 – 00:11:35:20
Jo Gibbs
So there’s that tension of which role in my inhabiting. I don’t have full decision making rights I do for this area. But then I also answer to the senior pastor and then, he also talks about this contentment dreaming paradox of is contentment is having a present focus on how God is at work shaping their lives, but also dreaming, about what’s in the future even though they’re not in the top position.
00:11:35:20 – 00:12:00:24
Jo Gibbs
So that can sometimes involve times of waiting, trusting God, cultivating faithfulness, abiding in him during those times of waiting, and but also looking at how God uses those times to prepare them for the future. So there’s kind of this current future, present future tension and wanting to be ambitious for the gospel, but not ambitious for yourself. And I love those talks from Paul Harrington.
00:12:00:24 – 00:12:14:08
Jo Gibbs
A couple of years ago at National Conference, where he, with all his wisdom and years of experience, talked about those differences. So second tier leaders just naturally have some tensions that can come out in different ways.
00:12:14:08 – 00:12:41:06
Scott Sanders
And it’s it’s important, I guess, for this. Well, it’s important for the simulator recognizes as well to be aware that, that this is this is a challenge for the second chair later to be to be wrestling with, and so acknowledging that, and being being aware of it because the reality is in church life and in a lot of church life, we just don’t have lots and lots of spots, you know, and particularly with most of our churches have maybe 1 or 2 staff members.
00:12:41:06 – 00:12:59:13
Scott Sanders
Yeah. It’s not, you know, it’s not not like we can have a lot of people in leadership positions all all across the place. We actually need people to be in in the lives. Yeah. Working in that ministry department layer, and recognizing that there’s a cost there. But again, that wrestle, as you say, they would call ambitious and ambition ambitious for the gospel.
00:12:59:13 – 00:13:18:16
Scott Sanders
So I’ve often, you know, seen the assistant minister, you know, take the costly role of not, you know, taking on a senior minister all and have a place to stay. This is the minister. Yeah. In order to build a bigger ministry to, you know, recognize that they work well with the existing senior leader there and they got a great ministry that, you know, builds and grows.
00:13:18:22 – 00:13:22:13
Scott Sanders
But the later acknowledging that, I guess that cost. Yeah.
00:13:22:15 – 00:13:42:18
Jo Gibbs
Being aware of that and that shift that sometimes needs to occur. And I think it’s, particularly hard for someone who’s been a senior pastor and now becomes the second chair. So really intentionally making that shift and thinking through that contentment and those tensions. But also for the second chair, who’s on the trajectory, God willing, of becoming a senior pastor.
00:13:42:23 – 00:13:46:23
Jo Gibbs
So I think often for those people that can create more tension.
00:13:46:23 – 00:13:57:02
Scott Sanders
So is it, I guess, is it okay? You know, it’s look, some can can bear with that tension. Others just need to jump out and leave and to acknowledge that’s okay.
00:13:57:04 – 00:14:17:22
Jo Gibbs
Yeah. So that’s one of the questions. It’s worth asking is when is a good time to leave? When is the right time to leave? And so I think you wouldn’t want to make that, decision really quickly. But for some people, it will be an ongoing, tension that they experienced. But with the right support and self-awareness, they can maintain that and growing that.
00:14:17:24 – 00:14:27:10
Jo Gibbs
For some people, if it’s continuing to bring long term tensions in the relationship, then maybe that’s that’s not the right place for them. Yeah, but good question to ask.
00:14:27:12 – 00:14:46:08
Scott Sanders
So, what do you do when you see someone about to make a decision? That’s going to hurt people. So, so let’s let’s get to the road, right? As you can see, a senior leader is going to make that, you know, a let’s call it a I’ll just call it a dumb decision, a unhelpful term. Yeah.
00:14:46:08 – 00:15:00:16
Scott Sanders
Okay. That’s might be a better way to put it. But you can say that they want to do it as well. What does it look like from the second chair to be, you know, aware of that? And, Just wrestle with that.
00:15:00:18 – 00:15:02:19
Jo Gibbs
Well, I think the.
00:15:02:21 – 00:15:03:16
Scott Sanders
I hope this.
00:15:03:16 – 00:15:43:02
Jo Gibbs
Would never happen. Yeah. I think it’s asking the question of how to laid up on something that’s sensitive. I think that’s a broader category. I often hear this from women who are on teams or team members who have more emotional intelligence than the senior leader, so they might actually notice the impacts more than the senior pastor. It’s also a reality as church grows, as God brings growth, the senior pastors are less and less likely to be able to know how decisions are impacting on a wide range of people that aren’t had to eat the ground in the same way, the second cheerleader role can be a helpful resource in this area.
00:15:43:04 – 00:16:10:06
Jo Gibbs
But interesting to think about just any any leading up or challenging any change to the present system will be perceived as a criticism of past leadership. So that’s just going to be the default. So we need to work really hard on how we approach that conversation. What, what attitude we come with, what words we use because it will just naturally come across as a criticism.
00:16:10:08 – 00:16:44:23
Jo Gibbs
And especially as I’ve said, I think I said, if the senior pastor had oversight of that area before, more likely to look like that. So some things that are unhelpful in that situation, not saying anything I like, I don’t think that’s helping the church or their leadership or coming at it. When your emotions are really high, or when the senior leaders just got no space and they’re in the middle of things, the things you can do to really destroy the relationship, be really critical of them as a leader, playing the person, not the ball.
00:16:45:00 – 00:16:56:22
Jo Gibbs
Yeah. And I think just constantly being negative. If you’re that team member who’s always yes, but who’s just always critiquing, criticizing and comparing to other churches, you’re building a bit of a profile of yourself.
00:16:56:23 – 00:17:13:19
Scott Sanders
So this is one of the, I guess one of the helpful moments that I had, you know, doing the old AP and teaching the old AP just in terms of, thinking about how how we make decisions and, and a helpful way of making decisions. So we use the mBTI framework that moves from kind of, s sensing.
00:17:13:19 – 00:17:32:19
Scott Sanders
So gathering, data gathering, you know, gathering all the information to intuition, you know, making a decision, moving forward, thinking about the big picture, then thinking through what are the logical steps, you know, planned out and then moving to you know, so that’s the what. And then moving to the F conversation. Who’s going to be affected. Yeah. You know me.
00:17:32:19 – 00:17:53:15
Scott Sanders
You know I’m very intuitive and I’m very I’m very thinking I’m very low on the f. I guess this is this is one of those. Yeah. This is one of those insights that I found actually, it’s really good to have ifs, you know, I is on my team. Yeah. Who actually raise this. But in some ways with small teams where, you know, you might have two, two N’s, you know, maybe you.
00:17:53:16 – 00:17:54:01
Jo Gibbs
Don’t have a.
00:17:54:01 – 00:18:17:11
Scott Sanders
Well, you might have and say, you know, yeah, but it can be hard. So you as a senior leader if you’re wrestling, you said, well involving more people in in the discussion. But then what does it look like to have that, you know, conversation. So how do you have it outside of the emotion? How do you have it outside of a time where, you know, it’s the fourth church member has come and said saying, you light is my this, you know, this decision, how do you do that?
00:18:17:11 – 00:18:30:11
Scott Sanders
Hopefully godly and and move. Yeah. Move so that you want not necessarily want make that same mistake again because there will be decisions the senior makes where they have to move and they get upset people.
00:18:30:11 – 00:18:46:07
Jo Gibbs
Yeah, yeah. That’s reality. The most helpful book I found on this is called How to Lead When You’re Not in Charge, written by a Christian. So in a church context, really helpful. I’m not going to give the more detailed model, partly because we do it in the team development program and it’s worthwhile hearing the full thing. But just some pointers.
00:18:46:09 – 00:19:08:04
Jo Gibbs
Related worship. So really, you need to build a relationship that can handle the weight of the challenge you’re bringing. And that’s the long term game. That’s the, are you spending time, getting to know them? Do you know about their family, praying for them regularly and just having an overall attitude of respect for them and thankfulness to God?
00:19:08:04 – 00:19:35:00
Jo Gibbs
So that’s bringing in God’s sovereignty of God’s placed them in this position in this time. I trust God in that. And even thinking we’re in Bible study the other night, thinking through, I think it’s Romans 13 about submission to authorities. It’s really a submission to God is your submitting to the government. And so thinking that as well, with your leader, but that building of trust over time, but then as you come to rise is hard.
00:19:35:02 – 00:20:00:09
Jo Gibbs
Coming a time when you are emotionally neutral, your your accepting and coming prepared, that there’s probably more inside that you don’t. So there’s a bigger picture that the senior pastor sees across that also coming with this open handedness that holds loosely to it, that’s prepared for I know which might mean I disagree with you and the senior pastor’s just, is the one making that decision.
00:20:00:09 – 00:20:22:00
Jo Gibbs
Or it could be, not yet. It might be, something that happens later. But just coming with, an approach that is adjusted to the person. So, for example, Scott, your high energy, you love to do things on hypothetically high energy. Okay. That might be an executive director of Rage Australia that you love doing things on the floor.
00:20:22:01 – 00:20:43:17
Jo Gibbs
You love the conversation in the in the midst of the office, in between meetings, that kind of thing. So for me to discuss an idea with you, that’s what you love. Or I’ll send you multiple messages and you’ll do one conversation and bring them all together. Another later, perhaps call Pat Blanch in the Rage Australia team. Much more, like settled slower.
00:20:43:17 – 00:21:11:18
Jo Gibbs
Think, likes to have something a heads up beforehand and, strong on discernment and enablement. So for him I’ll write something and give him time to write it beforehand. So just thinking about that. What’s your senior lot, senior leader like how do they respond? What’s the best time to get them the best approach? And coming with just a curiosity and a real sense of serving and supporting them and being helpful, but also giving them a heads up before.
00:21:11:20 – 00:21:14:12
Jo Gibbs
So it’s not just expecting that conversation straight away.
00:21:14:12 – 00:21:40:06
Scott Sanders
Really helpful. There’s, there’s lots of examples of what’s right. So you go, yeah. And we want to keep pushing and having those hard conversations. We want to we want to have things that we do have those first conversations with each other. So I think a helpful, helpful thing is to, for the senior leader listening, perhaps the team members will have those regular kind of process conversations where you’ll bring it up, not in the context of, you know, realize something’s up.
00:21:40:08 – 00:21:55:12
Scott Sanders
Yeah, yeah, that’s it. But you’re just having the opportunity to just talk and ask about those things, pushing you to that kind of layer of trust where you’re actually inquisitive, wanting to learn about each other and, and being being aware of that. There is, there’s lots to put into this. I just want to push into the toolbox.
00:21:55:17 – 00:22:03:22
Scott Sanders
Yeah. With a couple of resources. I’ve already talked about a couple, a couple of resources at the two books that you mentioned. Joe. Yep.
00:22:03:24 – 00:22:07:05
Jo Gibbs
Leading from the second chair and how to lead when you’re not in charge.
00:22:07:05 – 00:22:24:00
Scott Sanders
We’ll put a link in the show notes to those two talks from, Paul Harrington. They’re great. Just to, to wrestle with and to think about as well. And Joe’s mentioned the, team development program. Really useful to, to do that as a team. Once your simulator has done the leadership develop program.
00:22:24:00 – 00:22:35:07
Jo Gibbs
Yeah, yeah. I was also going to say might be really helpful for a team to, listen to these and then have the conversation afterwards. How does the senior pastor like to be led up to, like, they’re they’re great ways to use this.
00:22:35:09 – 00:22:41:22
Scott Sanders
Yeah. Okay. Joe, what’s the one thing that you want to say about leading up?
00:22:41:22 – 00:23:12:21
Jo Gibbs
Well, I’d like to say, you know, tensions are going to exist in ministry relationship. So just saying that is normal. Don’t get don’t give in to frustration. Be slow to tell your senior pastor what you really think or leave, and just do that hard work of working on yourself first. Your motivations, sharing things when they’re not big, having those regular conversations in your direct report, meaning keeping God’s sovereignty and God’s glory in mind at every step.
00:23:12:23 – 00:23:26:18
Scott Sanders
Right? Well, this is a great episode that you might want to share and talk about as a staff team. If you think this is helpful for maybe some of your ministry friends who are wrestling with this, that’d be great. If you could, send it to them and get them to, have a listen. I’m Scott sanders.
00:23:26:18 – 00:23:27:03
Jo Gibbs
I’m Joe.
00:23:27:03 – 00:23:28:05
Scott Sanders
Gibbs. Jetson.
