Where do small groups come from and why does it matter? Silas Thiem explores the origins of small groups in focussing on Sydney churches, highlighting how cultural shifts and para-church movements helped shape their development. It’s a reminder that small groups weren’t always about structured Bible study—they started as spaces for connection. This episode asks whether they’re still the right tool for the job, or if it’s time to rethink how they function in the life of the church.

Silas Thiem is the equipping minister at St Alban’s Lindfield in the North Shore of Sydney.

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TRANSCRIPT:

The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.

00:00:08:10 – 00:00:09:06
Unknown
G’day I’m Pete Hughes.

00:00:09:06 – 00:00:26:14
Unknown
And welcome to the one thing the podcast is on DAB. One solid practical tip the gospel scented ministry every week and the one thing is brought to you by Reach Australia. We would love to see thousands of healthy, evangelistic, multiplying churches. We want to see churches planted. So make sure you jump on our website. Have a look at the plant side of our website.

00:00:26:14 – 00:00:43:19
Unknown
You’ll find lots of great resources there. But we have been talking about small groups and, wanted to come back and revisit that a little bit. Today we have with us Silas TM, who used to work here at Rich Australia at one stage. But you’re now, working at Saint Albans Linfield on the leafy North shore of Sydney.

00:00:43:19 – 00:01:02:03
Unknown
Yeah. Enjoying that a good time. Welcome, Silas. Thanks for having me back. Now, Mike, you you’re you’re actually a young dad, like you’ve just had, you got a one year old. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Tell what’s one of the joys of being a young dad at the moment? Yeah. I think, to two particular joys come to mind.

00:01:02:04 – 00:01:23:02
Unknown
It’s seeing him kind of come onto his own. Seeing him, develop his own personality, enjoy some of the things that, you know, I was doing with him when he was still just a newborn. But, see him actually develop all of his own interests and, you know, get amongst making a mess and getting amongst, discovering the world.

00:01:23:04 – 00:01:48:19
Unknown
That’s a huge joy. But the other joy, I think, it’s probably been related to me and my walk with Jesus. I’m sure every parent has this thing right where they become the parent, and then they actually suddenly see what it means to have God as father a little bit differently. And that’s been, a wild, wild joy to me, wildly, wildly confronting.

00:01:48:19 – 00:02:03:16
Unknown
Yes. But deep and something really special. It’s my walk with Jesus. It’s been beautiful. Yeah. I’ve, I, I found that I’ve continued to find that as I’ve continued to be a father. I’ve been the for a little while now.

00:02:03:16 – 00:02:07:21
Unknown
But Silas is here to talk about some of the research that he’s done in the history of smokers.

00:02:08:01 – 00:02:26:19
Unknown
This is actually going to be a really important topic. Before you go and press Skip on to the next episode or anything like that. Stop. This is actually a really important topic because we need to understand where our, our, our structures have come from to understand better how to use them. So for now, you’ve press play on another episode of the One thing small groups.

00:02:26:21 – 00:02:28:22
Unknown
How do we get them and why do they matter?

00:02:30:13 – 00:02:57:14

00:03:01:20 – 00:03:16:17
Unknown
All right. That’s all you you wrote, and I actually got published. And in an article. Now we’ve got a link to the article at the end or in a, the toolbox. But we can’t give it to you because of copyright, so you can go and have a look. And if you want to buy it, you can do that.

00:03:16:19 – 00:03:41:01
Unknown
But, it was really on the history of small groups in Sydney. And, and because we didn’t always have small groups, it was something that developed. What what were some of the big influences that actually got us from not having small groups to having small groups? Yeah. I think for the longest time, not maybe not the longest time, but it was commonly thought that the big thing was, the Billy Graham crusades.

00:03:41:01 – 00:04:06:08
Unknown
Right. That before the Billy Graham crusades, there were no small groups. And then after the Billy Graham crusades, suddenly small groups are everywhere. Yeah, I think that that’s, being a commonly held notion, around the place, but I think, it’s better to think of it as a little bit more multifaceted with the Crusades kind of bringing all these different facets together.

00:04:06:10 – 00:04:25:20
Unknown
There’s probably two main things. Firstly, the social needs that small groups naturally would have actually addressed. Because of the nature and shape of small groups and those social needs growing so that they could no longer be ignored. And then the second thing was, a for running power church ministries that were already getting among small groups.

00:04:25:22 – 00:04:45:05
Unknown
And those things kind of formed a leadership pipeline, which, when small groups actually came about in churches, or there were already people who were involved in small groups and had even led small groups in the past. And all those things were brought together and kind of catalyzed by the Crusades to picture, the 50s and 60s.

00:04:45:05 – 00:05:16:08
Unknown
Right. You had increased affluence, increased, wealth post divorce, more free time on your hands. TVs were coming in. That was a new thing. Increased access to entertainment. Cars were starting to become more common. And all of that kind of, kind of factored into a growing individualism in Australian culture, which had the inadvertent effect of dissolving a sense of shared community.

00:05:16:10 – 00:05:39:02
Unknown
So instead of, thinking about me and my local community, we were thinking about me and my family and building up my family. So, in the past, you might have had neighbors over for afternoon tea. But now you’d have yourself at home with the kids at home to watch TV instead of having the neighbors over.

00:05:39:03 – 00:05:59:01
Unknown
So you’ve kind of lost that sense of community, as with those directly around you. Is that what you’re saying? I think that’s right. Where, I take, the, the, the idea of morning tea, for instance. At lots of our churches now we have a hospitality thing that’s attached to our gathering. It might not even be a touch.

00:05:59:01 – 00:06:18:00
Unknown
It might be part and parcel and Caudwell gathering. Yeah. But back in the 50s and 60s, you wouldn’t need anything like that because you were going to have them over for afternoon tea. So that. So you have morning tea after church because we’re going to do that this afternoon anyway. So naturally kind of happened in people’s houses anyway.

00:06:18:00 – 00:06:44:04
Unknown
That’s right. Okay. So people in our churches already knew each other, already spent time together outside of church. There was no need to actually have these things that facilitated community. And so when you had the dissolving of these things, and people no longer were spending time together over tea instead of watching TV by themselves, what ended up happening was a gap was created.

00:06:44:06 – 00:07:05:07
Unknown
And seeing that gap, churches started to go, actually, we need to start facilitating this. And then I put on morning tea, you know, after church to try to actually help people spend time with each other because otherwise people wouldn’t even know each other. So just be clear on this, because that means that small groups are actually coming out of a reaction to a, to social changes that have been happening.

00:07:05:09 – 00:07:38:22
Unknown
Is that what is that part of what you’re saying? Yeah, that’s exactly right. So you had all these social changes and, people responding in need. So there’s a growing sense of individualism, a growing sense of wealth, people, starting to, think and behave and value things more individualistic. You know, the self becomes the god or the, and at the same time, then you also had that increased sense of loneliness, then, and so, these things start to develop.

00:07:38:22 – 00:08:07:01
Unknown
You had, anxiety coming out of the Cold War. All sorts of, other factors starting to play in some of the, effects of the sexual revolution also starting to, come about in the, in the 60s. And so at the same time as this growing sense of individual individualism and affluence, you also had, increased needs to those, those sorts of areas as well.

00:08:07:03 – 00:08:30:16
Unknown
In the case of small groups as well, those things were happening. And then you also had, these power church ministries that were starting to use small groups. So you had Sydney University’s Evangelical Union, the Christian group there. They were starting to use small groups and make it much more core to their ministry philosophy.

00:08:30:18 – 00:09:03:12
Unknown
You had the the growing and increase of, school Christian groups like, ICF groups or Crusader groups, which would then feed into those university groups. And so the idea of people spending time together in small groups in multiple settings became more and more popular, particularly, with the Bible open without someone necessarily who’s theologically trained doing the the big teaching moment instead of people together.

00:09:03:14 – 00:09:23:10
Unknown
Because that was another big shift, wasn’t it, that that churches, cite previous to, say, 1960? The main thing was that the, the Sunday service, the preacher actually giving the word through preaching. And this was actually shifting that a little bit so that, laypeople were able to actually encourage each other with the word in small groups through the week.

00:09:23:13 – 00:09:56:00
Unknown
That’s right. And that’s probably the most controversial factor. When small groups were actually starting to become a thing. Particularly, insert into nominations, part of the Sydney Anglican denomination. But certainly nominations had much to to use in terms of, who could be authorized to do the teaching of the word you know, for fear of, you know, church splits or fear of, poor theology.

00:09:56:02 – 00:10:03:13
Unknown
Whereas, other denominations have, you know, a much looser hand.

00:10:03:13 – 00:10:32:00
Unknown
But in the case of Sydney Anglicanism, with that hand, the idea of someone getting up and potentially facilitating, a discussion about the Bible, that would be theologically wrong. That was, something that was very, entangled. There was actually, lots of debates, between

00:10:32:00 – 00:10:46:01
Unknown
in the denomination itself about how to go about that and what would be both, a pragmatic way forward, but also what would be, tasteful and what would be, actually beneficial as a whole church.

00:10:46:03 – 00:11:11:09
Unknown
Where did they land on that discussion? They, went from midway. Okay. Well, what a surprising thing for an Anglican to do. Yeah. Sorry. The video, the middle way. Yeah. That’s it. Yeah. Funny, right. But yeah, you had, both extremes, the genuine extremes where people were, advocating very hard that, you know, the, the point of, you know, the pastor is to, equip the sense for the work of ministry.

00:11:11:09 – 00:11:34:19
Unknown
It’s not to do it all. And on the other hand, you had, this other group of people who, were holding very tightly to, it’s our job to the word can’t make it someone else’s job. How did they navigate that? Yeah, there was significant debates. About what? That what that look like. And, what that would mean for the Anglican.

00:11:34:21 – 00:11:51:16
Unknown
Okay. So we we, we seem to have inherited this idea of small groups from history. So today, we kind of I think a lot of people just assume, of course, you have a small group ministry in your church. That being said, I was, recently at a boot camp, and the question came up, why do we actually need small groups?

00:11:51:16 – 00:12:12:22
Unknown
I mean, that’s a brilliant question to ask, but how important is it to to know where we’ve come from and what we’re inheriting? Yeah. It’s huge. I think that lots of what we do in ministry, and certainly this was, the case in, in my, in my early ministry training, right, with, why do we do this?

00:12:12:22 – 00:12:32:01
Unknown
We do this because, that’s what we do, right? Yeah. Why do we have, morning tea? We do this because we have morning tea. That’s that’s why we do it. Why do we have small groups? Well, we need small groups. The kind of the assumption that we need them is already baked into, how we think.

00:12:32:03 – 00:12:58:15
Unknown
But often that that means that we don’t actually think about what the small group is supposed to actually achieve. And there’s lots of good reasons. Very important reasons have small groups. Don’t don’t get me wrong. Don’t hear me wrong there. But we kind of enshrine it as the thing to do. Often we overloaded with, a greater weight that it can actually carry.

00:12:58:16 – 00:13:26:14
Unknown
We think of it as the discipleship engine for all of church when it can’t possibly do that. You can’t possibly put that all into one lay leader. If, and we, we treat it and we enshrined to do that way when actually, we don’t actually often think about what function it’s playing and what we actually want to achieve in the wider scope of all the things that we do as a church.

00:13:26:16 – 00:14:08:10
Unknown
Okay. Let me let me ask a difficult question. You know, we talked about some of the social changes that happened in the 50s and 60s. In some ways, small groups really came to the for in the 80s. Is it possible that small groups, a solving a 1950s problem with a 1980s structure? Yeah. That’s interesting. I think that when we think about small groups, nowadays, we think of the problem that we’re trying to solve is usually a deep in the word maturity, helping our, our church members get more into the word kind of problem, helping them know the word, helping them have their Bibles open be shaped by the word

00:14:08:12 – 00:14:40:16
Unknown
but originally, as as we’ve alluded to, the, the reason that small groups came about, was one hopes pragmatic. But secondly, in many ways was geared towards addressing, issues related to fellowship. Actually, can I just say, because I actually think that’s a really kind, that small groups are a pragmatic solution to the problem and that we tend to as you as you said before, we tend to enshrine them and go, oh, that’s what we do.

00:14:40:18 – 00:15:01:14
Unknown
You couldn’t possibly have a church without small groups, but to actually stand back and go, it’s a pragmatic solution. We need to actually have a look, you know, what are the problems that we’re actually seeking to to solve from that? So yeah. Sorry. Continue on. Yeah. And I think this is, that’s, that’s really huge, right. In that, we come out with, this deep in the word problem that we’re trying to solve.

00:15:01:16 – 00:15:36:10
Unknown
When originally, it was issues to do with, fellowship, relationship togetherness, being known, accountability, that sort of thing. And if we come at it trying to solve, perhaps, a different problem in mind, we actually end up doing or emphasizing slightly different things. Even now, I’ve seen, small groups around the place where you’d rock up and, you know, it’s it’s very tired.

00:15:36:10 – 00:16:00:19
Unknown
It’s an hour. It’s an hour. There might be, five, ten minutes of chit chat. And then you’re straight into Bible study, and then the Bible study goes over time, as it always does. And then you run out of time to pray. And, if the main problem you’re trying to solve is, you know, getting deep in the word, then yeah, perhaps that’s, that’s good and that’s right.

00:16:00:19 – 00:16:25:20
Unknown
But if there are actually other things that the small group needs to bring to the table in the context of church life, to do with helping our church be a family, helping people be known, helping people be cared for, helping people grow in their prayer life. To then actually got to start doing slightly different things in your small group to see those things happen as well.

00:16:25:22 – 00:16:45:14
Unknown
Yeah, because you said earlier on that, you know, small groups can’t do everything right. And sometimes I think we try, as you said, we try and put so much on small groups and we can kind of bury them. But it sounds like what you’re saying is that small groups, the, the, the problem that small groups are looking to solve is to do with community and getting to love one another.

00:16:45:16 – 00:17:22:00
Unknown
More than, say, deep in the word. Now, have I got that right? Or am I pushing you into a position historically, that’s largely right. These are things going on. The, the shape of the small group was largely geared towards that sense of fellowship. So even, John Stotts Church in All Souls in Langham Place, like his his thesis there was, that, fellowship is a deep priority, and the shape of the small group is uniquely geared and set up to actually address the needs of fellowship in church life.

00:17:22:02 – 00:17:53:20
Unknown
Knowing that the Sunday gathering can’t achieve all those deep things in fellowship that you’d want to see achieved. And so for Stott, it’s not that it didn’t do any anybody like, didn’t see Bible teaching happen in his small groups of course. But what was the unique contribution of small groups to the church ecosystem? It was something more geared towards fellowship, togetherness, prayer, life, actually helping people, walk together and follow Jesus together, not just go deep in the word.

00:17:53:22 – 00:17:54:19
Unknown
Sure.

00:17:55:09 – 00:18:14:11
Unknown
What you, what you said was, small groups can’t do everything right. We tend to put too much stuff on small groups, and that that can kind of drown them, so to speak. But on the other hand, it sounds like what you’re saying is that the function of small groups was really about community. And is that what you think pastors should be thinking about?

00:18:14:16 – 00:18:51:16
Unknown
They should be thinking this is actually about us learning to love each other as a community, as opposed to some of the other aspects of, say, the rich Australia ecosystem. It in my opinion. Yeah. That’s why I’m not. I want your opinion. Yeah, yeah. Let’s go. Maybe, in that, if, like we always start with, the outcome that we need to see achieved in mind, you know, if all of this needs to happen, not to the exclusion of, the science growing deeply and then knowledge and love of Jesus in such a way that it’s transformative for the whole lot.

00:18:51:16 – 00:19:19:01
Unknown
If, you know, we we never depart from the big thing that we’re aiming for is we want to see disciples, built up and become more like Jesus. But if we think about small groups. But if we think about small groups, as a unique input, a unique feature. What is the the special thing from its shape or its setting that only it can contribute to church life?

00:19:19:03 – 00:19:23:23
Unknown
I think that it leans in two ways.

00:19:24:01 – 00:19:56:17
Unknown
One of them is, in how people are able to be known in that smaller setting, particularly in a context which is increasingly lonely, where they’re increasing, mental and emotional and social relational needs, that people are feeling, increasingly, as, people navigate challenges of what it looks like to live out being a Christian at work and, and, and what that looks like to do that in, in a shared community where we’re able to encourage each other and through Jesus together, that’s, that’s huge.

00:19:56:17 – 00:20:21:20
Unknown
I think that that’s a very special contribution. But the other thing, of course, where you don’t usually see this in other aspects of church life, is, a context where you’re able to speak the truth and love together in a, in a particular way that, is actually mutually beneficial, not just coming one way from one person.

00:20:21:22 – 00:20:43:21
Unknown
I think that those are the two main, unique things where small groups are uniquely set up to actually contribute to the, to the ecosystem. Yeah. And I think it’s a really helpful question to ask. And it may be something, as you’re listening to this that you need to ask or your staff team needs to ask, what is the unique contribution that small groups make to our church?

00:20:44:02 – 00:21:02:07
Unknown
And that’s really helpful. Yes, as you say, because people have those tight knit communication, not tight knit communities. Sorry. To me, they are able to have those sort of relationships and help each other along the way. Now, some churches see small groups as essential. How essential are they? I mean, what would happen if we close all our small groups tomorrow?

00:21:02:07 – 00:21:23:10
Unknown
Do you think that would be a complete disaster? Yeah, I, I think so, but again, depends on the the reason why we, you know, we’ve set up the small group and what we have in mind is the main goals. Like I said, because so often we’ve put the main goal is to deepen the word maturity type thing.

00:21:23:12 – 00:21:56:16
Unknown
If, small groups folded tomorrow, well. There’s still the gathering that’s still happening. Prayerfully, people are still reading the word by themselves in their own quiet times under God. Prayerfully. That’s still happening. What’s the thing that’s uniquely lost in the context of church life? I think it’s that sense of being known in a smaller group, particularly if, if our churches are, you know, anywhere above the number of 50.

00:21:56:18 – 00:22:20:20
Unknown
How well can you know someone in the Sunday gathering? You see them once a week, you spend time, listening to God together, singing together, you know, worshiping together, all that good stuff. But how much knowing and being known can happen over, you know, for your short morning teeth? Particularly when you’re chasing the kids around, you know.

00:22:20:21 – 00:22:40:06
Unknown
Yep. What’s the unique thing lost, then? In small groups if you were to take them out of church life immediately? I think it’s that context for knowing and being known. That’s probably what I reckon the and I think that’s really important as well as we what we want to see our churches grow. So we want to see churches that are 50 at the moment.

00:22:40:08 – 00:22:54:17
Unknown
We want to see them grow to 150. Those are that 150 want to see them continue to grow to 500. We want to see churches planted. So those relationships are going to get more and more stretched. Small groups are going to become more and more important as we keep going through that.

00:22:54:17 – 00:23:14:09
Unknown
All right. So I guess you’ve, you’ve done a lot of research into the history of small groups and, actually, you said before, you know, that ministry existed before, 1960 and small groups weren’t a part of that, but they are now. But you’ve seen that history and you’ve been involved with small groups now, what do you reckon the future holds?

00:23:14:09 – 00:23:36:23
Unknown
Is there are there innovations that we’re expecting? A small group is going to change. What innovations would you like to see when it comes to small groups? Yeah, I can, think of a few things off the top of my head. But, you know, as a network, we, we’re so much better together, you know, when, we rub shoulders with each other and we’re when we’re able to, exchange ideas and actually push each other in our thinking.

00:23:37:01 – 00:24:09:05
Unknown
There are some ideas for, you know, as a network, we’ve come up with much better ideas together. The first thing is that, I reckon that we should see other ministries actually begin performing some of the things that we think small Group does and see those things start thriving. So, for example, ministry teams the degree to which ministry teams can actually see people go to people, go in together, be deep together in relationship, be supporting each other in their walks with Jesus and encouraging each other.

00:24:09:07 – 00:24:35:05
Unknown
Even rowing in the word together and living it out together. Ministry teams are an amazing context to see that happen. And incidentally, the early small groups actually sometimes took nights off to go do ministry things together, incidentally. So that’s one thing I’d love to see. Other ministries begin carrying that broader way of discipleship that we typically place solely on the small group.

00:24:35:07 – 00:24:36:11
Unknown
Wrongly, I think.

00:24:36:11 – 00:25:05:06
Unknown
The, the other things we could probably see are different shapes of small groups that are, considered to achieve slightly different purposes or slightly different purposes for different people. Some of us already do this in our churches where we have, small groups that to a particular shape, that is trying to do a slightly different thing than the normal small group.

00:25:05:08 – 00:25:30:20
Unknown
For example, the typical, American Sunday School style of small group where, you actually have a, a curriculum that you go through with a group of people. There’s no reason why, you could naturally have a bunch of small groups all meeting together in the one place, having a combination of upfront teaching, small group discussion, community, and food.

00:25:30:22 – 00:25:37:07
Unknown
There’s no reason why, we couldn’t see that happen. And we see that happen in tons of our churches as well.

00:25:37:10 – 00:25:59:14
Unknown
In other places, would probably also say different. Seeing different people have a go at doing different things online. I know that, lots of us have, hang ups about, you know, being in person is better than being online, but being online is better than not being not not doing it at all.

00:25:59:16 – 00:26:26:21
Unknown
Yeah. You know, and let’s, let’s be clear, like, the more we can get, people actually relating to each other, loving each other even online, the more we get them in their word, in, in the Bible, even online. Like, I don’t think we can underestimate the difference that that would make as a whole. Right now, we, we focus in on, you know, one big not a week.

00:26:26:22 – 00:27:05:02
Unknown
You know, come to the Sunday gathering and come to a small group one night a week, and, you know, everything else is a bit more dispersed. What if it wasn’t one night a week? But three 25 minute check ins? Sure. You know, there’s all sorts of, different things that could become possibilities. But in the end, thinking about the outcome that we want to achieve, people going deep in the word together and people being loved and supporting each other, being known together, lots of different ways that we can see that achieved and we’re not necessarily limited.

00:27:05:04 – 00:27:27:03
Unknown
Yeah. To this, you know, whatever it is, one hour and a half, two hours on a Wednesday night. Yep. I think that’s that’s interesting because we all research actually talked about social changes that have taken place. And then this new structure, small groups come in and what we are still seeing technological changes take place. So we’ve done a whole bunch of stuff now online.

00:27:27:03 – 00:27:42:23
Unknown
We we have a lot more access to each other online. And now then change that into new structures that may help us to get to know each other, love each other, and love one and, love God as we we grow as disciples. So yeah, it’s the I think it’ll be really interesting to see what those innovations look like.

00:27:42:23 – 00:28:10:18
Unknown
And I also want to say, if you’re listening and you’ve got one of those innovations, I really would love to hear about it. So make sure you email us. Resources that reach Australia accommodate you. So also, tell us what’s what’s the one thing that you think the history of small groups can tell us? Yeah, I think the main thing is, given that small groups came out of something that was largely pragmatic, we shouldn’t treat it as this enshrines structure that can never change.

00:28:10:20 – 00:28:36:19
Unknown
Something that we must have lest we be unfaithful, or lest we not be prioritizing Scripture or prioritizing the Word of God. Rather, we should probably be thinking about them much more flexibly. In the life of our church right now, what is it that we need them to do, or do we need them to actually produce more head for mission in this season, in this particular season?

00:28:36:21 – 00:29:00:00
Unknown
Let’s use them for that. Do we need them in this particular season of church? We’re in the season of grief. Perhaps we need them to produce more togetherness and more care. Let’s lean in and use them a bit more for that. Have the outcome in mind and actually shape what we do based on the outcome, rather than have this enshrined thing that we’re trying to protect.

00:29:00:02 – 00:29:17:12
Unknown
And, trying to use irrespective of, what it is that our church actually needs them to do right now. And I reckon this is a great time of the year to be thinking about that. As we look at next year and going on, let’s stop and think, what are our small groups doing and what do we want them to do?

00:29:17:14 – 00:29:32:21
Unknown
And if you found this, a helpful episode, make sure you actually spend some time as a staff team. You might want to do this as part of your retreat planning for next year to go. What exactly do we want our small groups to do? In the toolbox, we, we’ll have a link to, Silas’s Journal article.

00:29:32:21 – 00:29:49:06
Unknown
I know some people go, academic articles. That’s going to be, hard, hard work. It’s actually worth it. It’s a great article, but we can’t give it to you. You’ll have to go to the article and, perhaps purchase it yourself. We also have a previous episode where I talked to Richard Sweetman about, small groups as well.

00:29:49:11 – 00:30:04:18
Unknown
But like I said, it is worth actually spending some time as, as a team. Perhaps if you’re a small group leader thinking about what is it that I actually want my small group to be doing, that’s a great thing to do. So thank you so much for your research and for writing it down and for all the work you do.

00:30:04:18 – 00:30:11:01
Unknown
And thanks for joining us today. Thanks for having me on. Please chat soon.