What happens when denominational leaders get in the same room to talk about gospel growth in Australia?

In this episode, Derek and Scott reflect on a recent national gathering hosted by The Gospel Coalition—a moment of unity, clarity, and challenge.

A bold vision was laid down: double the number of Reformed evangelical Christians over 20 years.

  • Why reformed evangelical churches rather than all Christians?
  • Why is this a 20 year vision?
  • What needs to happen in the local church to make this happen?
  • Why this needs to be more about doing than just talking
  • What are some of the ways we can be doing together?

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TRANSCRIPT:
The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.

00;00;00;00 – 00;00;09;10

Speaker 1

You know, I’m Derek Hannah.

00;00;09;10 – 00;00;10;09

Speaker 2

And I’m Scott Sanders.

00;00;10;16 – 00;00;28;16

Speaker 1

Welcome to the One Thing, a podcast designed to give you one solid practical tip for gospel centered ministry. Every week, one thing is brought to you by rich Australia. Our vision is to see thousands of healthy, evangelistic and multiplying churches across Australia, which is exactly what we’re going to be talking about today. Scott, as we do a little bit of reflection on.

00;00;28;18 – 00;00;29;14

Speaker 2

We’re not very good at doing.

00;00;29;14 – 00;00;47;14

Speaker 1

Reflection, not that good at it, but that’s what we’re going to do today at six on live on air. We’re gonna reflect a little bit on that gathering that was last week that, the Gospel Coalition pulled together in Sydney, that a number of leaders from across the country, came together to talk about. I want to give too much away for just a moment.

00;00;47;16 – 00;00;55;05

Speaker 1

But for now, you press play another episode of The One Thing reflections on the denominational leaders gathering.

00;00;55;07 – 00;01;19;09

Speaker 3

Today’s podcast is brought to you by Stanton Doll Architects. At Stanton Doll, we believe all people matter, so we seek to bring about honor, well-being, and dignity through the design, creation, research, and interpretation of space in the service of people. If you need help with your building needs and redesign and contact us at Stanton. Welcome you. And now back to the podcast.

00;01;19;11 – 00;01;29;29

Speaker 1

Yeah. Scott, just for a little bit of context, people may not have heard about this. The reason they should have people that lives to live. What what are we talking about here? This gathering. What was it.

00;01;30;02 – 00;01;50;25

Speaker 2

Over the last few years, with at a national conference and at various events, were pulling together ladies in various denominations. Also, ladies from, Bible colleges, from the the ecosystem of church ministries, MTC, CPS, other movements that are happening across Australia. Basically to keep having the discussion about, well, how is it that we can we can reach Australia.

00;01;50;27 – 00;02;00;28

Speaker 2

And a couple of weeks ago we gathered together, in Sydney again to kind of just, I guess, push the push the goal down the down the field to set a little bit further.

00;02;01;00 – 00;02;03;23

Speaker 1

Kick the ball down. Yeah. Kick the can down.

00;02;03;29 – 00;02;06;28

Speaker 2

Well, sometimes it feels like a pushy stretch.

00;02;07;00 – 00;02;18;16

Speaker 1

I don’t think you’re allowed to move the goals, so that’s part of the rules. But, you know, we understand anyway. Yeah. So how is it we do that together? What is that? What is that goal that’s been either it wasn’t quite new last week, but yeah.

00;02;18;18 – 00;02;57;12

Speaker 2

I mean, it’s interesting a dialog that it’s a really good opportunity network. It’s a good opportunity to, you know, catch up and have conversations that you, can often have when you’re, you, you know, in a room, with, with lots and lots of people. But what came out of the day was, a desire, to, to share together the goal of seeing reformed evangelical churches, double in 20 years and to be bringing that kind of prayer, that, you know, that vision in front of our boards, our parish councils, our elders ships, in front of our organizations, as a way of, I guess, having this bigger, larger, unifying

00;02;57;12 – 00;03;18;07

Speaker 2

goal that we’re all kind of working towards. So in some senses, you know, I can be putting, I always like to speak, you know, speak first. I’d like to get my thoughts out there. I’d like to give a post-it notes up. Always like to be the first to share. So I’ll put on the whiteboard, you know, pretty quickly, I’d love to say out of this day, you know, a shared desired outcome for Australia.

00;03;18;09 – 00;03;39;18

Speaker 2

And I just thought we I don’t think we’re going to come up with the next, you know, next best church growth thing or no silver bullet is no silver bullet. We’re not going to come up with a shared operating model for how we how we all work together because we don’t have the authority to do that. But actually, wouldn’t it be great if we just had a, a shared prayer, a shared conviction and something that was actually larger than, you know, the things that we’re doing in it?

00;03;39;18 – 00;03;49;02

Speaker 2

Bible colleges, the things we’re doing in our local churches are things we’re trying to seek, as you know, denominations, and and as part church, you know, organizations as well.

00;03;49;05 – 00;03;55;16

Speaker 1

So what what was that, you alluded to or mentioned already? But was it something that came out of that day?

00;03;55;16 – 00;04;16;00

Speaker 2

Yeah. Well, Eddie, put together a paper in the morning which, had had four kind of principles. And, and then the, the theory, we should think about doubling reformed evangelical Christianity in 20 years. And and the key to that was through godly and effective, church leaders.

00;04;16;02 – 00;04;28;05

Speaker 1

Okay. So he gave a kind of well, he gave his take on, on one key avenue to achieve that goal. But the the goal was doubling. You said doubling reformed evangelical Christians in churches by 20.

00;04;28;05 – 00;04;32;12

Speaker 2

In 20, 20 years. So so let me push into the reformed here because.

00;04;32;12 – 00;04;44;12

Speaker 1

I want to ask you about that, because that seems an interesting little. Yeah. Because if I tweak that, to have a few different words, we probably get more people on board with that. But talk to us about we can I.

00;04;44;12 – 00;05;03;23

Speaker 2

Just think I just think it’s the reality of, trying to work together. Like I think, you know, someone who’s been pulling together people for the last 15 years to get them to think about church planning and to get them think about, you know, revitalizing churches. The reality is, as as you get a water group of people, it’s actually harder to do something together, you know?

00;05;03;24 – 00;05;21;22

Speaker 2

So that’s why it’s like, well, we ought to all as churches, in Australia and I, you know, the church, the visible church in Australia, be praying for disciples to be made. You know, there’s 25 million people who are going to hell. And, and that’s a that’s something that we all can’t, you know, do by ourselves. We actually need to work together.

00;05;21;24 – 00;05;32;09

Speaker 2

And I would hope that most churches across Australia would have, as they kind of keep pray, we want to be on about, you know, making disciples who actually their mission should be. We want to make disciples.

00;05;32;14 – 00;05;48;28

Speaker 1

So it was an interesting moment last week because those so the what already before what you’ve been talking about is if we change the the words in the sentence, we want to we want to say twice as many, double the number of born again genuine Christians in churches in 20 years, that.

00;05;49;01 – 00;06;10;09

Speaker 2

I’m in and I think I would say, I mean, but seen what does it look like to actually do that together? And I think Rory made a really helpful, you know, observation, that there’s a group, people in the room who, you know, haven’t been able to get together for, pretty significant time, you know, perhaps going back all the way to 1959, you know, Billy Graham crusade.

00;06;10;12 – 00;06;23;07

Speaker 2

And, and so there’s a there’s a unique opportunity to actually think about, well, how can we use our resources to collectively say, so this, you know, goal of of doubling the church in Australia.

00;06;23;09 – 00;06;40;18

Speaker 1

So, so part of it is just, we want to see more people become Christians. That’s, that’s unlike we don’t say as many possible people. And that was helpful in the room support of saying, let’s do more. But of course, let’s do as much as we can. No one’s going to get at that limit and stop. But the reformed evangelical thing is, is a is about a contextual moment of saying this is who we like.

00;06;40;18 – 00;06;57;23

Speaker 1

These are our personal convictions, and we’re not saying you have to be reformed evangelical Christian. We’re not saying that we have convictions that we believe, but we’re not trying to convert people who are already converted. But we are saying this is in order for us to do something, to work together. This is who we are. We are reformed evangelicals.

00;06;57;23 – 00;06;58;09

Speaker 1

That’s what it says.

00;06;58;10 – 00;07;19;12

Speaker 2

And there’s a minute. Yeah, in some sense is reformed evangelical shorthand for a whole bunch of stuff. But at its core, God save sinners, which I think is, you know, gives me such great confidence again. And plant churches, such great confidence. Go and take the gospel out. We know that a sovereign God is working in the hearts, you know, by his spirit to, you know, incline them, turn them towards.

00;07;19;12 – 00;07;40;19

Speaker 2

And we know that we have a God who actually, you know, loves a lost, and desires all that, all people, you know, be saved. And there’s a whole bunch of people who have a kind of similar ministry philosophy, the importance of the word, and prayer. So a humble dependance, you know, on on God in that, but a confidence that as we proclaim the gospel, as we take the gospel, that, will see lives change, transform lives.

00;07;40;26 – 00;08;01;10

Speaker 2

So I think, you know, the first thing is it’s just the reality of working together. You know, it’s hard to do stuff together. It’s hard to do stuff together when you’re, quite disparate. So you can gather for a prayer meeting, and, you know, that same week, I think on Tuesday morning, there was a, you know, in Sydney, a latest prayer gathering with thousands of people who gathered to pray together, which I think you can do.

00;08;01;10 – 00;08;19;01

Speaker 2

But then the Miami, you say, well, let’s work together. It actually becomes hard. I think second part of the vision is the 20 year, ways register. I’ve had these kind of 15 year goals. So it’s it’s kind of driven out, you know, and norstar goals of saying 300 new churches, planted and seeing 750 churches developed.

00;08;19;03 – 00;08;39;10

Speaker 2

And I think a lot of everyone’s helpful on this. He, he in his book, on on generosity, on gospel generosity, on giving talks about a church having a credible, shared vision. So that’s the credible part I want to talk about. We have a 15 year vision, which I think is credible. You know, that looks like churches growing at 5% each year.

00;08;39;13 – 00;08;57;19

Speaker 2

Now, that’s not going to be every church that’s going to be some church is growing at 12%. Some church is growing at 15%. That’s going to be some church is growing at 2% in, you know, some years or actually even declining or actually stopping and closing. Yeah. Yeah. So credible is it not 15 years, but 20, which means about 4%.

00;08;57;21 – 00;09;07;17

Speaker 2

So, so it is achievable. You know, in under God, without with our weaknesses, with our, with our efforts, I think it’s achievable.

00;09;07;17 – 00;09;19;25

Speaker 1

So what? Why not go is some people in the room push for it, and I appreciate the heart behind this. There’s a there’s a reality. Why not just go for saying 100% of people converted across Australia in 20 years?

00;09;19;27 – 00;09;49;20

Speaker 2

Well, again, I, I would love that. Yeah. I, I have friends, I have family members who I want to, I want them, you know, I want them to know Jesus. I want them to have an eternity. Give him praise and glory and honor to honor the Jesus. So, so I want that I know our listeners have they want that as well for for their friends and their family members as well, and for for the lost in their neighborhoods that I don’t even know.

00;09;49;22 – 00;10;03;04

Speaker 2

And so, yes, I’m praying for that. I would love I’d love to see that. But the reality is that’s kind of historically not what I have seen. And historically, what we have seen in Australia is, is a is a slow decline. The last hundred years is a part.

00;10;03;04 – 00;10;20;10

Speaker 1

Of it as well. Is just trying to with those people in that room at that time. How do we take, as you said before, you know, just kick the can down the road, just take one step forward together to do something together that might impact more people. And if by the grace of God, we see more and more people converted, that’s great.

00;10;20;10 – 00;10;25;17

Speaker 1

But it is a bit there’s a just a reality working within this tension, as you put that shared credibility.

00;10;25;22 – 00;10;47;11

Speaker 2

And so the second part of it is it was shared, you know, as we got into today, you know, Gary McLaren is in his beautiful, Irish voice gets up and said, oh, won’t I hang on. Let’s what about this? You know, what if we just. What if we just commit to that and then as the, you know, momentum go around the room, you know, Mark Murray Campbell kind of tapped on his computer and kind of put up a little bit of a statement, which we all kind of hammered around and discussed.

00;10;47;11 – 00;11;08;11

Speaker 2

And, I guess my hope, my prayer is that actually we would be bringing this back to our parish councils and our elder ships and our committees of management, how we’d be bringing this back to our church. And and it would force us to be getting down on our knees and in prayer. But it also forced us to go, okay, well, what does this look like for for us, you know, and the reality is we’ve got a gospel ecosystem across Australia.

00;11;08;11 – 00;11;26;16

Speaker 2

We have, you know, churches in in most parts of Australia. I love it. If churches actually then went, okay, what does it look look like for us to reach this region? Yeah. Let’s think about the fields, and not the barns. Let’s think you know about the generations as well. Let’s think about the next generation, which, you know, I don’t think we’re often inclined to do in in the church.

00;11;26;16 – 00;11;42;26

Speaker 2

I think we’ve got often quite short term thinking. And so, you know, that in some sense that’s, that’s my hope that we just take it back and go, okay, what does this mean? And it might mean for a church. Okay. We’re going to start, actively praying for, you know, multiplication. Yeah. We’re going to resource, you know, someone to plant a church.

00;11;43;00 – 00;12;02;28

Speaker 2

We’re going to we’re going to think through things that are blocking growth in our church and start, you know, making shifts and changes or, you know, for a Bible college, we’re going to be thinking through how how do we get these convictions deep inside our, our graduates, so that they’re wanting to take the gospel that not only to Australia, but, you know, to the world, if we’re in a heritage celebration, we’re thinking through.

00;12;02;28 – 00;12;18;15

Speaker 2

Okay, I’m going to have to have some hard conversations, some, you know, how do we free up resources? How do we, how do we how do we engage the whole, you know, whole kind of system to, to be about evangelism, about, you know, growing the church.

00;12;18;17 – 00;12;27;29

Speaker 1

Talking about some of the, some of the actual changes on the ground. What were the things that we were pushing into Iran might be evangelistic. Growth changed, lives changed.

00;12;28;06 – 00;12;45;12

Speaker 2

Yeah, I think I mean, in some I guess some of the things that I’ve heard, it’s kind of pushing back on it is, you know, this is hard. And I go, yeah, yeah, it is hard. And and it actually requires, a significant change often in a church, particularly the church has been in maintenance mode, or decline for a period of time.

00;12;45;15 – 00;13;05;06

Speaker 2

And so I’m not I’m not saying this is quick or easy. Hence this is going to be take this will take 20 years. Yeah. It’ll it’ll take, you know, some slow changes. It’ll take some big moves as well. And that’s something where, you know, we always talk about in terms of, you know, thinking about kind of getting a conversion engine or getting your, you know, your evangelistic, you know, work happening in church.

00;13;05;08 – 00;13;31;28

Speaker 2

This is a sort of a 2 to 3 year change process is not something that happens overnight. And in order to kind of build a pipeline of, you know, people coming to Jesus again, it’s a it’s a slow build. But I believe, as you know, if you get the flywheel happening, there is a momentum. And now that’s in some senses orientalists who said in their in their data set, you know, the key, one of the key change, you know, in their sort of non characteristics of a you know, a healthy a healthy church is transform lives.

00;13;32;02 – 00;13;49;16

Speaker 2

You know, there’s a sense that as you, as you celebrate, transform lives in church, you know, there is change. And I just this last week at my home church, Vaughn church, Leah. Leah got baptized. Yeah. Leah. Leah. Miss. The kind of the baptism week, you know. And so I was out it was out of sync and, you know, through the calendar up.

00;13;49;16 – 00;14;07;29

Speaker 2

But that was because he’s his father needed it to, you know, he wanted his father to come and he his testimony, and I hear about, how he’s how he’s just changed his life because of Jesus. And so, you know, I think it I think it’s great. It’s very an Anglican to have a baptism. You know, outside of formal, formal time.

00;14;07;29 – 00;14;30;10

Speaker 2

And it was sort of more Baptist ish in, but the, you know, I’m, I’m hoping that that just kind of radiates out and we get a conference as a church that where God’s God’s changing lives and seeing radical transformation. And, you know, it happens in the it happens in the ones and, ones and twos, not this kind of big, massive sort of movement, but but the only way to do that is to start on blocking stuff now.

00;14;30;10 – 00;14;35;00

Speaker 2

Yeah. In the, you know, in, in the hope, in the prayer that we’ll get, you know, bigger change 70 threes.

00;14;35;03 – 00;14;47;27

Speaker 1

And I think because, you know, and when there’s not a recording microphone in front of us, I’m probably, you know, I’ll pray more open about this. I don’t really like these things. I don’t really like these. I think not the people that.

00;14;48;04 – 00;14;50;28

Speaker 2

We’re recording now. What what are you like?

00;14;50;28 – 00;14;56;05

Speaker 1

They seem. I find them really hard because it feels so good. You know, like, if you if you have a body.

00;14;56;08 – 00;14;58;27

Speaker 2

The body language, he’s got his arms crossed. It seems really.

00;14;58;27 – 00;15;22;09

Speaker 1

Intense. No, because I want to be careful to say, in part because I think there is my natural inclination is not these things I don’t I don’t really enjoy in being in the room. For them. That’s about me. It’s not about the room. But I think my reaction to the my allergic reaction sometimes is to we actually just need to get out there and do it because like you’ve been talking to the individual person to transform a transformed life.

00;15;22;09 – 00;15;40;05

Speaker 1

People are coming to Christ. That’s where the pointy edges for me and for most anyone in ministry is. Well, that’s what we want to see. And the disconnect sometimes I feel between these rooms of people sitting in these rooms making these, you know, grandiose statements. And the thing actually, that we, we are passionate about doing over here is so vast.

00;15;40;05 – 00;15;40;13

Speaker 1

I just.

00;15;40;13 – 00;15;41;27

Speaker 2

Want to say, I don’t think it’s a grandiose.

00;15;41;27 – 00;15;58;13

Speaker 1

Time, but I think it’s achievable. So I can I mean, I mean, I mean, it feels disconnected between the person over here. And again, I’m critiquing myself here. I’m not making absolute. I’m just observing some of some of the critiques we hear coming out about these kind of moments. What my uncomfortableness is in that room. Yeah.

00;15;58;17 – 00;16;23;14

Speaker 1

Let’s just get on and do it. Okay, so this is not talking about, but actually the the realities, each of us have a part to play within the whole. And if we all just tweaked a little bit, to work out what, how am I the blockage in this might thinking, what am I thinking wrong. It might actually for the whole of our area or our church or our region, or even Australia at points have a greater impact for the gospel.

00;16;23;14 – 00;16;43;19

Speaker 1

So part of me saying that, you know, I understand people’s critique of these, these big gatherings, no one in that room is saying he’s a silver bullet. No one in that room is saying we’re doing the most important things. But actually there are points where we need to kind of reach across the aisle. Well, we need to gather with those things to reflect on whether there are where there are challenges to doing the thing that we care about most deeply.

00;16;43;20 – 00;16;59;07

Speaker 1

Saint people come to Lord Jesus, transform like him in those bigger moments. And so I think part of it is we’ve we’ve got to work out within this whole thing that we’re doing in our own churches and regions in Australia, what role we we can play in unpicking that.

00;16;59;08 – 00;17;04;05

Speaker 2

So, so as a network, what does it look like?

00;17;04;08 – 00;17;07;14

Speaker 1

Oh yeah. Tell me. Yeah. Oh come on, you’re the one.

00;17;07;17 – 00;17;29;14

Speaker 2

He’s one of the people I look like. We obviously need more new churches and I stats as that statistic of, you know, denominations need to be planning at a rate of kind of 6% in order just to kind of cover, closures and, and decline, you know, so as, as denominations, as, as church networks, we need, to be setting the goal, to see churches planted.

00;17;29;14 – 00;17;45;00

Speaker 2

We need to be thinking about how we can remove barriers for the of new things. We need to be thinking how we can build pipelines of future, you know, gospel workers. We need to be working kind of now for the church planting in seven years. Because the reality is it’s a long, a long way. Tom. We need more new churches.

00;17;45;00 – 00;18;03;00

Speaker 2

We need us as a network to be, gospel generous outside of our denominational networks, gospel giants, outside of our, our regions. We need to unblock like the buildings in many, you know, the many the many buildings that are kind of, fallow, you know, fallow in the afternoons or fallow in the mornings or actually under utilized.

00;18;03;00 – 00;18;22;16

Speaker 2

You know, we need we need, congregations to be going, hey, there’s a there’s a church point down the road, or there’s a church down the road that actually could use these larger facilities rather than where we’re not, you know, stewarding them. Well. And, so we need that gospel generosity to see churches planning, but we also need to see bigger churches and maybe get churches.

00;18;22;16 – 00;18;37;22

Speaker 2

I’m not meaning we need to say megachurches, but I’m need to be saying everyone needs to be committing to, well, for churches, 75 what does it look like to push past and become a church of 125? If you’re a church of 125, what does it look like for us to get and become a church of, 250 or.

00;18;37;24 – 00;18;50;23

Speaker 2

Oh, yeah, don’t worry. Oh, it’s right for you. Oh, it’s not like, oh, what does it look like for us to to model points and, and send people out if, you know, if we are in a context where actually 75 to under 25 is, you know, you know, is.

00;18;50;23 – 00;18;51;28

Speaker 1

Large, know.

00;18;52;00 – 00;18;58;14

Speaker 2

So that that’s a, that’s what it’s going to look like. More new churches and churches getting bigger.

00;18;58;17 – 00;18;59;12

Speaker 1

Yep. Absolutely.

00;18;59;12 – 00;19;01;17

Speaker 2

And and maybe splitting off and.

00;19;01;17 – 00;19;18;29

Speaker 1

Mostly that’s right. But but part of it as well, with this stuff again to critique myself it the power of it is in these modes, not just in that room last week, but but in the other moment is, is having conversations where you realize, oh, I’m just, my church is impacted by things outside my church.

00;19;18;29 – 00;19;37;19

Speaker 1

So I’m going to have a meeting with someone after we finish a recording. Is is it a Bible call? Just thinking into it. Well, how does it at his Bible college, what are the things we’re doing really well? What are the things we might be able to change? In order to, to grow leaders at, deeper in the word, but more effective on the ground as well.

00;19;37;22 – 00;19;44;12

Speaker 1

Because I’ve, we’re having conversation. So that is a powerful moment where the whole ecosystem can work together to reach Australia.

00;19;44;13 – 00;20;04;20

Speaker 2

So that’s the third thing I want to say is, you know, we start on reflection. We actually do need to reflect. We need to, you know, pause, evaluate. Our, our role in the, in the logic gospel ecosystem. And we need to be, I think, you know, bringing that to our, our boards, bringing that to our decision making bodies so that we can start influencing and seeing change.

00;20;04;22 – 00;20;21;28

Speaker 1

And yeah, Scott, just as we finish up, are you got any final words before I ask you the one thing? No. Okay. Well, let me ask you one thing then you tapped out. All right. So what’s the one thing that, we need to think about when it comes to, reaching Australia and doubling Christianity across Australia to an extent is.

00;20;22;00 – 00;20;38;06

Speaker 2

My prayers that we’d have a shared, credible vision. And, I think it’d be great to start at just seeing, churches double in size in the next 15 years. Let me say 15 years. Let’s put this for the heart to go in front of it. That gives us a little bit more urgency in the next, 15 years.

00;20;38;06 – 00;20;50;26

Speaker 2

And let’s be praying for that. Let’s be thinking about how we can unblock, you know, the parts of winning it block in our world. And, and let’s think about how we can move resources into seeing more new churches and, churches getting bigger.

00;20;50;28 – 00;21;22;05

Speaker 1

I mean, well, listen, if you like this, make sure you, pass this on to someone else who might, you might wanna have a conversation with this about who’s part of your gospel work or what gospel work. In order for us to reach Australia, we’ll throw some things in the toolbox as well that are links to different, that shared credible vision, talk from more material from all over on about building this as well, if you’re in context, but also about different visions that are actually being cast across Australia in order to reach in order to begin to do, the, the heads to what part we could play

00;21;22;05 – 00;21;25;08

Speaker 1

in that as well. I’m Derek Hannah.

00;21;25;10 – 00;21;25;23

Speaker 2

I’m Scott.

00;21;25;23 – 00;21;29;02

Speaker 1

Sanders Chesson.

00;21;29;05 – 00;21;31;01

Speaker 1

From.