Preparing the next generation for ministry is an important role for any gospel worker, but it can be hard to get started or not be distracted. The Ministry Training Strategy (MTS), as an entity, has honed their expertise to training the trainer. A part of that is expanding out the vision of what a MTS trainee can be. Clare, in particular, assisting trainers with considering hiring female apprentices.
James Hoey is Director of Partnerships and Clare Merkel is Ministry Training for Women Partnership Developer.
They are helping people to think about:
- Vision
- Income
- Strategy
- Admin
TOOLBOX:
Eager to Serve by Ray Galea
CREDITS:
This episode was brought to you by The Ministry Training Strategy
The One Thing is brought to you by Reach Australia
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TRANSCRIPT:
The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
0:08
G’day.I’m Pete Hughes, and you’ve clicked on the One Thing podcast designed to give you 1 solid practical tip for the ministry.Every single week, we want to see thousands of healthy, evangelistic, multiplying churches multiplying.We want to see more and more leaders raised up.And today we’re here.We’re talking to James Hoey, Director of Partnerships from MTS, Claire Merkel, director of training for women and partnership development, and a whole bunch of other things.
0:31
I I’m just trying to work out how you managed to fit that all on a business card is.That right, You’re just giving her a new role.Yeah, yeah.It is.It’s a very long convoluted title for I think a a very simple thing.We’re just trying to recruit and train more women into ministry and helping gospel workers think that through.
0:48
But yeah, the title technically is Ministry Training for Women Partnership Developer.It doesn’t fit on a card that’s.Who has business cards anyway these days?So yeah, no, that’ll that’ll be fun.All right, let’s get into it.You’ve clicked on another episode of The One Thing, looking at traineeships and the role of MTS.
1:08
Today’s podcast is brought to you by the Ministry Training Strategy.MTS is a network of gospel workers who share the vision of winning the world for Christ by multiplying gospel workers through ministry apprenticeships.To find out more, especially on how to start an apprenticeship, head to mts.com dot AU.
1:23
And now back to the podcast.All right.Let’s start with you guys have had a little bit of a strategic pivot, haven’t you at MTS over the last little while.Just just talk me through a little bit about the process and where you’ve ended up in terms of what you’re doing.
1:41
I I know there’s MTS, the ID MTS, the sort of the network MTS the, the movement, the movement.Tell us a little bit about how that what how you came to that change and what does that change look like?It’s interesting since the 19 late 1970s when MTS started.
1:57
You probably know more about the history than I do, Pete.Thank you for just highlighting that.I’m a lot older than you, James.Really appreciate that.That’s a great.Podcast.Moving on.Yeah, I think it’s just the idea of just as a movement grows, it changes through different phases.In the last sort of five to 10 years, we’ve just noticed that to see more apprentices raised up, see more gospel workers raised up and sent went out into the Lord’s harvest field, we actually need more trainers to be trained people for that.
2:24
So the strategic pivot is a bit of a just, it’s been a slow pivot of just kind of go, is the focus on for MTS on apprenticeships or is the focus of MTS on healthy gospel ministry trainers?And actually that’s been the shift over the last couple of years that we’ve pivoted towards to go.
2:41
If we want to see more apprentices raised up, we want to see healthy gospel workers be sent out into the Lord’s harvest field, then we need good gospel workers who are healthy gospel minded ministry who are trainers.OK.So the focus is now a lot more on training the trainer, getting that that that process working and doing a better job of that.
3:02
Is that, have I got that correct?Is that how you describe it?Clip Yeah, yeah, yeah.So we realised in part of that strategic pivot that actually it’s it’s the gospel work as the pastor, the assistant ministers, what we call the trainers are the people who are actually investing in the apprentices.They’re the ones doing the growing, the maturing, the apprenticing of people.
3:21
It’s not the MTS organisation.And so our role is actually to be investing in the trainer, training them how to be a healthy trainer, to be able to do that training on the ground well.And that is because, I mean, one of the things you got to do with an apprentice is sit there and kind of assess them and go, is this for someone that’s actually someone that is a good fit for vocational ministry, for example.
3:43
And so you, and you’re not going to see that through a procedure or through a, a, a huge big movement or a conference.It’s got to be life on life, so to speak.Yeah, absolutely.And it’s it’s even that relationship that’s really key.We want to see trainers and apprentices having a trusted, healthy relationship as well.
3:59
And they’re the ones that we want to see developing and building up.Those people in their churches, they know their people.They know the people who have the character and the qualities that will be suitable for for apprenticeship.We don’t see those people.We don’t live life on life with them.So if there’s been that strategic pivot towards training the trainer, what what is that?
4:18
What changes that meant for say, you guys in terms of your roles?Yeah, I think our roles have really shifted towards just helping be clear on the MTS vision and the mission of it.I mean to win the world for Christ by multiplying gospel because through ministry apprenticeships, but it’s multiplying gospel with three ministry apprenticeships.
4:39
So we need the gospel trainer is at the core of what we do.So how do we envision them that with to win the world for Christ?How do we help them, you know, overcome the obstacles that come up as you know, both as you know, leading self before you lead others.So the blockages that they may experience in kind of identifying people or blockages in themselves, having the confidence to train people.
5:03
Yeah, yeah, we’ve created a tool recently that’s helped a little bit with us in this.So deal with James and I, our role is particularly in helping gospel workers pre apprenticeships.So we have a director of training, Russ, who he comes in and actually helps trainers to be trained when they’re already a trainer for us.
5:19
We’re helping gospel workers think through things like how to set a vision of actually training in their church, so developing a culture and a belief that’s then going to bleed out into all of their ministries.We help them through think through how they can set up income streams or funding models that can help facilitate the training app of apprentices and even training and equipping in their churches.
5:42
We might help them think through strategies, so things like, you know, training pipeline, A recruiting calendar, yeah, how to how to functionally set up those things in their churches and even administrative processes we can help them with as well.So that’s kind of what James and I would do and spend time doing.
5:59
And that makes a nice neat little acronym.Doesn’t.It Visa, yeah, people may have seen it.Some people who came to the conference might have got a little Visa card that they can keep tapping and.You can get coffees with it, but you can try.You, you, you can change the world through gospel work.
6:15
So that’s that’s a good thing.Yeah.So it’s vision, income, strategy, admin, they’re the there are those four things that you particularly work through.Yeah.OK, So if I was listening to this and I’m a gospel worker, I’m going, I really need to start thinking about apprenticeships.What’s the first step that I, I should do?
6:31
I, who do I, should I contact you guys?What?What’s my first step?Yeah, I think contact us and we’ll work through the visa acronym or visa thing with you had a lot of times it’s really easy because in a lot of church vision statements, you know things about making disciples for all the world’s that sort of stuff.So and we just try to help churches and ministries kind of goes, well, what does that look like day to day?
6:51
What does it look like going?I heard a podcast, one song from the Pagan to the pasta.How do we move through that process with them?And we just play a little small part in that.So helping them say the vision, how that might distil down, help them identify people in their congregation, young or old or that sort of stuff.
7:08
Yeah.Yeah, I think making contact with us so we can chat through them.Often people are at different steps in that tool that I described.So, you know, we can help them identify where they need to start focusing in on.And then if they need resources or help doing that, we can help them do that.
7:25
Yeah.And helping them think bigger, like James just touched in a little bit.Then on identifying people as well, that’s something else that we’ve been helping gospel leaders to think through.MTS used to be a bit more of a narrow pathway for people to in terms of who we thought about when we thought about who’s an MTS apprentice.
7:43
I think historically it was often, you know your your young male between sort of 18 to 25.I was going to say it was the it’s 25 year old male university trained.I, I, there’s part of me that wants to say limited EQ, but no, no, no.Let’s look at that.We want to, yeah.
7:59
You know, I was not going to actually say engineer out loud, but yeah.But it was that there was a kind of a stereotype that was there.Absolutely.But that we need more than that in gospel work.So more than that, I mean, engineers, we love you even if you don’t understand what love means.But we we want to see more than that.
8:16
So.So yeah, talk with me a bit more about broadening out that.Yeah, yeah.I mean, I think most of the pastors and gospel workers listening would agree that there are so many different types of people that are suitable for ministry.And actually the key to ministry is not competence.
8:34
So, you know, not your university qualification, your intellect, your ability to do ministry skills, but actually the character.And we see some of the most beautiful character developed in, in women, in, you know, your tradespeople in all sorts of people.God has gifted us with people with different abilities and developed goldiness attributes in them.
8:54
So we actually want to think first and foremost, the type of person we want to train has the character there, the desire to serve and those godly attributes beyond that, we want to see actually tell people that the scope is kind of much bigger than they originally thought.
9:11
So let’s not just think blokes for one, but not not just think blokes who are young either.Are there blokes who are, you know, having a mid year crisis and we could tap into that and shifts careers?Oh, yeah, I reckon that’s a big, big area.Is that those guys who are kind of, I mean, thanks, James, for reminding me.
9:28
But yeah, people in my age going, you know what?I climbed the top of the corporate ladder and guess what?There’s nothing here.What else can I do?I I’ve only got one life.Yeah, but it’s also less people who come to faith later in life as well.Yeah, that’s true.See, if you’re a 40 year old that’s, you know, joined the life course at your church, become a Christian and then you’re going, well, how do I live in light of the gospel?
9:47
It’s the same question for the 25 year old bloke who’s finished uni and gone to a recruiting conference or something like that.But it’s also just the idea of going, how do we as gospel workers, as ministers, think about how might I encourage that person to take the next step?Am I even offering that next step to them that I’ve offered to someone who’s a bit younger and kind of fits the mode of what I expect to be or what the path that I walked?
10:08
Or are we trying to be creative about, hey, how might I create a path for this person to move into vocational gospel ministry?Because you’re 4050 years old, you’ve got, you’ve paid down your mortgage, you may, but you have different issues that come up.But the way you work through all those obstacles is still coming back to the Gospel, right?
10:24
How do you live in light of the cross of Christ?Yeah.And recognising that vocational ministry does not necessarily mean an ordained pastor within a church.We see everywhere now that ministry is much broader than what we think.There’s different ministry positions within the churches, within para church organisations.
10:46
So we’re actually equipping people for vocational gospel work, not necessarily for ordained pastoral ministry.So even shaping, having that sort of mind shift when we’re identifying people, which also then opens up.So not just the blokes, but then for women’s.And this is really where I’ve been.I was.Going to ask you Yeah, yeah, I know that this has been a big passion.
11:03
This isn’t just a job for you.This is a passion point.Seeing women thinking about ministry, moving into ministry.Why is it such a big passion thing for you?Yeah, Well, I’ve always been very passionate about training up people because I see that biblical mandate for us to be training and equipping people if we want to see the gospel growing.
11:21
And I just think the the the most perfect image of God is men and women working in complement to each other.And if we truly want to see present the image of God to our church and beyond, we need to have men and women working alongside each other perfectly.
11:39
Historically, you know, that hasn’t been the case.Yes, there are still, you know, some boundaries in terms of or you know, certain roles and responsibilities that men and women can’t do.So I’m not advocating for women to step into those, you know, the, the teaching responsibilities of a church.
11:57
But beyond that, there are so many opportunities for women to serve as equally and often even greater, greater ways than we’ve even seen men do.So why not harness them?But also trying to give women the confidence at different ages and stages.
12:12
So you see women we used to often talk about, oh, you’ve got this narrow window, right?Like if you don’t get in and get trained and equipped before you’re 25, you know, you’re done.Like you’ve got kids, you can’t be trained and equipped to serve, which I just think is, is crazy in many ways.
12:29
There are women who their godliness.So we go back to those character attributes, their godliness, their heart to serve.It doesn’t disappear when they have kids or as they get, you know, become empty nesters.In many ways, it actually grows and strengthens as they get older.
12:44
So what we’ve really been thinking through, how do we help women and help gospel workers see women in different ages and stages of life to be trained and equipped, that is going to look different.You know, for these women who’ve got kids, the reality is they’re not going to be able to do a full time apprenticeship.
13:02
And we actually don’t want to encourage them, a lot of them to do a full time apprenticeship.Motherhood’s really important.Yeah, yeah, that’s, that’s an important ministry.And people sometimes forget, oh, actually looking after young kids, that is actually a really important ministry.We want to make sure that that’s recognised as a ministry.Yeah.But you’re right, there is a limited amount of time that they have there.
13:18
But yeah, still time so.Still time.Yeah.And I even, you know, I like to say our children are our first and most important apprentices, right?Sure.That’s how we want to treat them.We want to have them, you know, developing them as disciples of Jesus.But there is still ways that we can, you know, like my kids, for example, I’ve got 4 kids at primary school.
13:38
I have the the blessing to be able to work just when they’re at school in, in this role.So even thinking, you know, creatively about that, are there ways that we could encourage women to be trained and equipped in maybe in school hours or for, you know, empty nesters to go?
13:56
My kids have left home now.I have a bit more time, a bit more capacity.They could be trained and equipped in ministry, even if it’s in a part time way to be able to serve.They have so much more of their life to give to Jesus.So why not?Yeah, invest in them.Look, you know, actually be identifying these types of women in our churches.
14:15
It’s also the thing about just mobilising them for industry.And you think if our view of an apprentice or someone who can serve a church is in that narrow band of 25 to 30 or 35, there’s a lot of the other people who aren’t church, who aren’t that age.But how do you mobilise the whole church be serving and loving one another, equipping the Saints for that?
14:33
Equipping the Saints is not a narrow band, it’s a wide band.It’s all of them.Yeah, it’s as every part does, it’s work.You know, you see that later in that in Ephesians 4.You see that kind of coming up.OK, Claire, I want to just if if there was a there’s a woman, she’s listening to this at the moment, she’s going.I want to serve more.I want to do something but I I can’t see how that would work because that it may be that she’s got the picture of I’m not the 25 year old university engineering graduate.
15:01
What?What’s her first step?What should she do?Yeah, it’s a great question.Ideally, you would love for the gospel workers who have identified her, but that you’re right, that isn’t happening.Yeah, currently and often.Which is why you’ve had that strategic pivot to to get the gospel worker thinking.
15:18
Thinking about it and identifying it, that’s right.But yeah, you’re right.Historically that hasn’t happened.My encouragement to that kind of woman is to start doing something.And what I mean by that is why don’t you start investing in another woman in your church?Just start meeting up to read the Bible one to one.
15:35
That is a great thing for even preparing you to be serving others and to be investing in the lives of others.But also, why don’t you go and have the conversation with a gospel worker, express your desire, your interests, explain to them your capacity or your ability to be flexible and your desire to be trained.
15:52
But even that might even look like, could we just meet up for a year to read the Bible simply like that?That’s what I will often do back to people who come to me.So someone comes to me and says, you know, I’m really keen to be trained, equipped or I would like to be utilised more in the church.My first thing to do would be great.
16:09
How about we start meeting up, whether that’s often I’ll try and go weekly.But you know, if it’s the young mum, it might be, let’s just let’s just aim for once a month.Let’s once a month, let’s meet up, read the Bible.We might read something together like books, say like eager to serve by regalia, which just gets us thinking through how are we using our life now to serve Jesus?
16:28
So I would encourage gospel workers to be thinking about that.But if you’re the woman that yourself is keen and no one has come up and done that, why don’t you just approach, yeah, someone in your church, a gospel worker or even a mature female that maybe isn’t on staff, but she’s a wise, godly woman and ask her to do that with you.
16:48
If I was a gospel worker, why not just, you know, go, Oh great, you want to serve, you want to run kids church, mainly music, all that straight away.Why would you actually go?Hey, let’s pause, let’s let’s go through, you know, something like eager to serve.Why not just throw them in the deep end?Good question, James.Can I just say, James, I’m the one asking the question like I’m just watching.
17:06
We’re gonna take over this project.Yeah, I mean, I’m losing.I’m watching someone lose.I’m losing my job.Sorry, but James, gotta ask question.Yeah, yeah.I think it very much comes back to, well, there’s a couple of things there is in there, right.If we’re really on about training and equipping, throwing someone just into leading something or or serving in a ministry is not actually training and equipping them for that ministry.
17:27
That’s just that is such a.Let’s just pause on that and just go.That is such a big thing.Throwing someone into ministry is not training them in ministry.Yeah, just because they’re able doesn’t mean they can.That’s right.Yeah.But it is, I mean it doing it really good, really important.And I think it’s it, I think having experiences, I think 70% of the learning process, but it’s the feedback, it’s the other bits and pieces that go with it that is so important.
17:48
It’s the reflection of why are we even doing this?Why do we do this ministry?Why do we need to do it this way?Should we be doing it some other?It’s, it’s all those discussions.You said the reflection, even self reflection.So I think that’s a key thing.But also going back to what we’ve said previously, it’s not examining their character.
18:05
So that sort of thing is, is very much competence based and what we really want to think about, if we’re thinking about is this a suitable person, particularly to step into something like a ministry apprenticeship.Again, he’s their character.What a year does of, you know, spending a year reading the Bible with someone, reading through a book that’s challenging them to think about how they’re actually utilising their time in service of Jesus.
18:27
You get a lot of insight into where this person’s heart is and that is much more valuable than just watching them do some ministry skills.James, how would you answer your own question?Yeah, I think it’s about the relationships that’s tied into the character thing.
18:43
But it’s that whole idea of, you know, the pole to Timothy of the Titus, two older women, younger women, It’s it’s investing the relationship, the discipleship that’s there.So it’s not just the function of great, I’m trying to plug gaps.Like we don’t want any of our trainers to ever think I’ve got an apprentice.I can now plug a gap.You know, it’s about that relationship that you have with your trainer, that they love you, that they can speak into your lives.
19:02
They can help you through the difficult trials.They can rebuke you when they need to rebuke you with love.If you just kind of throw someone in because they go, hey, I’ve got some time, right There you go.You don’t get that opportunity.You don’t actually get to.I don’t really think that’s really discipling or training or equipping them for the ministry or for them to look into further vocational training.
19:21
Yeah, I don’t, I don’t want to use the term slave labour but or cheap labour, but yeah, it might fit that way.All right now James, I want to also talk about about my bit of passion kind of projects is church planting.I want to see more and more churches planted.How important is apprenticeships?
19:37
Because we tend to think of apprenticeships in established churches, church planters, They’re, they’re thinking about, oh, I’ve just got to get things up and running.So they may not be thinking about an apprenticeship as a part of that, but it’s such an important part, isn’t it?Yeah, absolutely.I think I heard Derek or Scott first say this ages and ages ago at a multiply conference.
19:54
The whole idea of planting pregnant.It is such a weird term, but I it’s I can’t find a better one, but it is.It is.So the whole idea of you’re starting a new ministry, but you’ve already got an like you, you want to send someone off later off as well.Whether that’s the next church plant or whether that’s the next missionary, who knows.
20:11
But it’s just the idea going our church, yes, this is a new church that we’re planting.It’s all exciting, but we’re actually going to be involved with other ministries as well.We want to keep training and quipping.This is not the end point of this church.We actually want this to keep going and the gospel keep going out to the end of the earth.Again, how if someone was going I want to join a a church plant, would they be talking to you, talking to me, talking about talking to both of us talk to.
20:32
Everyone.Talk to everyone.Yeah.So I come to a Reach Australia conference, talk to the the the church planting stream here.Yeah, yeah.Find out about that.Yeah, so I did my apprenticeship in a church plant, Right?OK.Yeah, My first sermon was to 13 people because I think it was a long weekend.I’m glad it was only to 13 people, but I got to say how ministry was done from first principles.
20:51
We didn’t have a order of service set out.We kind of goes, well, where do you want to put the songs and why do you want to put them there?I didn’t have a bunch of, you know, established ministries to do.I had to start all these new ministries as an apprentice.And I don’t think I did a very good job at it, but I got to do it as an apprentice.And it was great to, you know, have the oversight of a trainer who kind of goes, OK, I don’t think that’s working well, but that’s OK because we trust in God’s sovereignty.
21:12
Let’s try something else.It almost offers up more of those Yeah, a more holistic training opportunity, doesn’t it, to be involved in that because again, you’re asking those why questions a lot.You know, in established churches it can be easy just to go, okay, this is the ministries we do.You’re going to go, you’re going to be involved in this, going to plug in here and off you go.
21:31
Whereas when you’re invested in a plant, there’s often a lot more of that reflection going on.Like, you know, we’ve got a clean slate here, what are we going to do?Why are we going to do it?There’s just so much more opportunities for that.Yeah.And it also highlights if you are doing an apprenticeship in an established church, just be that annoying 3 year old who just goes why, why are we doing that?
21:50
Why are we doing that?Why are we doing that?And I think that’s actually helpful for the team, the gospel worker who’s doing the training for the leadership team to go, why are we doing that?I mean, we did it 10 years ago, but why are we doing it now?So yeah, it can be a really helpful thing ministry for you to have in in your church and in your traineeship.
22:08
All right, let’s get to the one thing.What’s the one thing that I’m going to ask you both this.So you get 2 things really.But what’s the one thing that you would love gospel workers to hear about?Apprenticeships.I would love gospel workers to see themselves as gospel trainers.
22:25
That’s great and it’s succinct.I love it.That’s good.But gospel workers as gospel trainers, multipliers clear.Can you beat that?I would love gospel trainers to think big and creatively in terms of who they identify as suitable gospel workers.
22:46
Yeah, the harvest field is massive and we need so many more, and I want us to to just create that beautiful image of what it means to be serving God in his church.So think big and creative.Think men, women, different ages and stages of life.
23:04
And think about, yeah, multiplying leaders as the output and not let the pathway decide what’s going to happen there, but build the pathway around the people.Yeah, which is what we’ve always done.OK.And in the toolbox, we’ve of course got the MTS website.Make sure you can jump on there if you want to contact these guys.
23:21
If you do want to contact them particularly send me an email.I’ll pass it on to to James or to Claire or to somebody else who is keen to to be a part of it.Claire mentioned Eager to serve by regalia.We’ve got a link there to make sure that you can see that book if you’ve found that’s helpful.But if you found this, this episode helpful and you think someone else should listen to this, make sure you pass it on.
23:41
But yeah, anyway, James, Claire, I want to say thank you very much for joining us.Thanks.I’m Pete Hughes chat soon.
