Second chair leadership is someone who leads with influence without being the senior leader. Most church staff are second chair leaders, but it’s often misunderstood as waiting in the wings for primary leadership. Teams can flourish when this role is understood.
Here are some questions we’ll be answering:
What are the long term benefits of second chair roles?
What attributes are vital in second chair leadership?
What kind of training and/or coaching is needed for this role?
Senior leaders, what can you implement?How does a culture of flexibility and support enhance effectiveness?
TOOLBOX:
Who is a Second Chair Leader by Jo Gibbs
Leading from the Second Chair by Bonem and Patterson
How to Lead When Your Boss Can’t (Or Won’t) by Maxwell
How to Lead When You’re Not in Charge by Scroggins
CREDITS:
This episode was brought to you by the Leadership Development ProgramThe One Thing is brought to you by Reach AustraliaTo pray for Reach Australia, join our WhatsApp GroupFor ideas or questions please email [email protected]Support Reach Australia’s online library
TRANSCRIPT:
The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
G’day.I’m Scott Sanders.I’m Joe Gibbs.Welcome to The One Thing, a podcast designed to give you one solid, practical tip for Gospel Centre ministry.Every week.The One Thing is brought to you by Reach Australia.We’d love to see thousands of healthy, evangelistic multiplying churches.Now Joe, I’m going to say happy rugby league.
0:25
That’s happy rugby league to you too.That’s a phrase that comes from Ryan HG.We’re going to be talking today about second chair leadership and I reckon we we’ve got to either talk about cricket, rugby league, AFL.It’s got to come up at some point in time, at some time.But I’ve been wrestling with the whole kind of idea of player coach because I think a lot of people in sort of ministry department roles, you know, need to be the player coach.
0:47
You know, they’ve got to be, they’ve got to be in the ministry.They’ve got to be on the ministry.And I’ve been trying to find the sort of quintessential player.OK, so now I’m not gonna put you on the spot and ask you who’s your favourite player, coach.I think Craig Bellamy.Oh brilliant.Wow, talk us through.No, I, I like, I think just the name says it all.
1:03
Like I don’t think I even have to talk it through.Like just from his time.You don’t agree?Whose time at the Raiders?You don’t agree?Whose time he’s?Doing amazing work at the storm.You know, at Brisbane Broncos under the leadership of tutelage of Wayne Bennett, and then down the storm, you know, building what has been one of the most successful rugby league sort of dynasties in the last few years.
1:20
Yeah, Joe, that’s obviously for another podcast episode.For now, you press play on another episode of The One Thing.What makes an effective second chair leader?Today’s podcast is brought to you by the Reach Australia Leadership Development Programme.
1:36
Running over 2 years, the Leadership Development Programme helps ministry leaders develop personally and professionally.It includes intensives, cohorts, coaching and consults.If you’re interested in the Leadership Development programme, even if it’s early days for you, get in touch, head to the Reach Australia website and look under Healthy Churches.
1:53
And now back to the podcast.Joe, I just want to sort of start, why are we talking about this?Why, why?Why is this important?You know, isn’t it all about the senior leader?Yeah.And look, we, the senior leader has a really crucial role.
2:10
We invest so much at Reach Australia in our network in senior leaders.But really, when you think about it, most leaders on a staff team are second cheerleaders, and so we really need to pay attention to the unique opportunities these roles have, the unique challenges, and really think deeply into helping people be the most effective second chair leaders they can be.
2:31
So define second chair leader ’cause I’m sure as we’re a number of people listening to this are thinking, OK, I’ve got in my mind, but what are we talking about in terms of second chair leader?So we’re not talking about a two IC or an exec pastor.We’re talking about anyone who has a key relationship with the senior pastor, who serves under the leadership of the senior pastor.
2:51
So often we can talk about a team member.So usually someone on the staff team who has opportunity to add value throughout the whole church.So it could be an associate pastor, it could be a ministry director, a kids minister, exec pastors at that kind of range.That’s what we’re talking about.South In some senses, most leaders in churches are second chair leaders.
3:10
They are.And so that’s a whole bunch of people that we’re thinking about now.Generic leadership training is important for everyone on the team, but tailored training that really thinks about the specific context for second cheerleaders or thinks about what the full model of a second cheerleader could be.
3:28
We don’t talk about that much in Australia.And I think there’s it’s a really important space to grow.So thinking about leadership pipeline, we’re not talking, you know, in terms of generic, just the, I guess the team leader layer, we’re actually talking about that ministry department layer.Yeah, leading a, leading a function.
3:44
Yeah.Leading a, a ministry area of responsibility.So a large kind of outcome in church life.Yeah, it requires specific competencies, so skills, it requires specific values.And then and then finally, you know just where you’re putting your time and, and reflecting on that as well.
4:01
Yeah.And we’ve been thinking into this with the team development programme and just some of the conversations that happened in our cohorts where they’re thinking about change management or something else that’s happening in the whole team.But their particular perspective as being a second chair leader and just what that looks like and how they can work well with the senior pastor.
4:19
So Joe, what are some wrong assumptions we can make about second chair leaders?I think we can tend to think for guys that it’s a stepping stone role to moving on to being a senior pastor rather than actually paying attention to this role and seeing it as a valuable long term role that someone can have.
4:36
OK, I wanna pause there ’cause, ’cause I think this is, this is, this is really important.I think a lot of people, they go to college going.I’m here because I want to be in charge and I want to be in a role.But we, you know, we reach Australia, we want to see a whole bunch of new churches started.You know, the reality is there’s going to be a whole bunch of churches across Australia who are going to have solo pastors just because of a whole bunch of, you know, constraints, internal and external.
4:59
But the reality is we actually want to see churches grow, push past barriers so that we do have lots of healthy teams.And actually it might.What that might look like for a lot of people is that, yeah, they’re going to have to put on hold that desire to be the senior pastor and the leader of the church in order to be part of a team and to keep playing that really, really important role.
5:17
And that I think that’s really hard.You know, often it means not, you know, not preaching.Often it means not being on the work, you know, the workshop speak out there’s, you know, it means you’re not getting asked to go and do the weekend away a whole bunch of things.
5:32
But also there’s great opportunity to be part of a ministry for a long term and to see, you know, your your the fruit thrive and also to exercise your leadership in the midst of a yeah, healthy team.You can see it’s really important for us for the church to be raising up senior pastors, a real need there, and also to send out church planters.
5:53
But you could see the value of having a long term second chair leader for the health of the church and the the long term experience they’ve got, the knowledge of that and the stability for the team in the church can be really, really significant.OK, So what are some other wrong assumptions we make it that first one that it’s only a stepping stone to a more senior role?
6:16
Yeah, I think, I mean, I think as we read Scripture, we tend to only focus, focus on the first chair.So we tend to focus on Moses and David and Paul, but not necessarily noticed the second chair leaders that are around all of these people and who are part of their ministry.
6:33
So I think just for us, we just don’t tend to think in those categories.But I think the major mistake that we made is to only focus on the specialist depth for that person’s role.So if they’re heading.Out yeah, flesh that out a bit further.When you say specialist, you know, sort of outcome leader versus, you know, journalists, you’re talking they’re they’re say be a congregation pastor.
6:52
Is that what you mean?Now I’m thinking whatever’s written in their job description, so if they’re responsible for the deep in the word area or children’s ministry, whatever it is only considering that area, which can lead to very siloed roles within our teams, but not thinking about more broadly what that role could be.
7:10
And we do want that specialist depth.We do want the person to be honing their craft for the benefit of the whole church and their ministry.We do want them to be effectively leading their teams and their ministry and continuing to grow and learn.And it’s really important that that area is aligned under the vision and leadership of the senior pastor.
7:28
But we don’t want to miss what also could be in that role.And often in a, a role description for a second chair leader, it will have something like, and all other responsibilities given by the senior pastor.And I think we kind of think it’s going to be a an occasional thing that they just haven’t thought to put into the job description.
7:45
Whereas I like there are lots of things that could actually be in that area that would be very strategically significant.Yeah.And I guess one of the, one of the things we talk about when we talking with the church about their serving others outcome area is, is just the recognition that in terms of the leadership layers and a team member, team leader, ministry department leader, and then senior leadership team, 70% of, of what you kind of do in each of those layers is, is generic across whether you’re doing that in a deep inward outcome area, in a mission space or in a, in a demographic responsibility like kids and youth or seniors or something like that.
8:20
You have to exercise the same level leadership.I want to embarrass just a few people because I’ve seen a few people do this, do this.Well, so I’ve seen Graham Fuller do this at EV, you know, regularly move from, you know, leading the maturity space and then mission space.And then now he’s looking at, you know, at the kids in new space.
8:38
So he’s been able to shift Sam Hilton, you know, Sam Hilton for time, you know, is, again, has run, has run mission really well, but he’s in the membership space at the moment.He’s a campus pastor, but he’s also run magnification.Again, I, I don’t know how that happens, how that happened, but it but did a great job in that space.
8:56
And then Kate Stace at at Vine Church, she’s, I’ve seen Toby regularly shift and move her around as as a utility player.And I’ve seen her, you know, jump in and move as the church has grown, as the staff team’s changed.Yeah.Now that you know that happens because they’ve kind of demonstrated that 70% skill levy that you need.
9:17
Yeah, yeah.And as you said, they’re generic skills that can be transferred over and you can learn the specialist expertise for that area.But if you’ve got those general generic leadership skills, if you’re able to recruit and develop teams, if you’re able to set vision and outcomes for your specific ministry area, those things transfer across.
9:38
So I’m, I want to push into what if you what if you’re coaching someone who who’s the senior minister, sort of come across them and ask, ask them the question.Hey, you know, Joe, I’d really love you to shift and move into this, you know, this new role.Like in, you know, I’m imagining there’s a whole bunch of fears.
9:56
You know, I’m, I’m, I’m not equipped to do this role.I’m not good at it.I’m not going to be as good as the last person.I really love what I do.And this is who I am.You know, there’s a whole bunch of kind of emotions and things below the surface that someone’s reeling, you know, reeling with when you’re having that coaching conversation with them and saying, Hey, my senior ministers come along, you know, come alongside and ask me to move out of my, you know, deep in Word role into I know, let’s throw a ministry position everyone wants to do in church, kids, you know, how, how, how do you coach someone?
10:26
I guess through that big change that that shift.Yeah, I was going to say from the senior minister end, really important that when you recruit people to your team that you say that’s a possibility at the beginning.So for example, NW Anglican, they do that every few years and the whole team kind of gets up and moves chairs into different places.
10:45
It’s a conversation across the whole team, but really important to say that from the beginning.So people, there’s no right and switch.Is that the right?Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.But I think also from the senior pastor, if you’re gonna have that conversation, treat it as a recruitment conversation or a re recruitment conversation.
11:01
Maybe we should do an episode on that.But really take the time to do it.It’s not a small switch.You need to cast vision again, you need to be talking about what’s happening for the whole team.You need to have it as a development conversation with that staff member as well so that they get that whole context so that you have multiple conversations around this.
11:19
It’s not going to happen overnight.So I would say from that end, that’s really important.Don’t just treat it as a switch.There are a whole bunch of things there.But for you, what do you think for coaching the second cheerleader?Things that they should consider?Yeah, well, I, I think there’s a, there’s a whole bunch of ways to go around it.
11:37
I mean, I, I want to push into the opportunities for them to grow.I want to understand, you know, potentially if they’ve raised it in a coaching conversation, you know, why is it particularly important now?What’s going on for you?I’d want to think into the culture of the team as well and, and push into the model we have of, you know, Jesus sacrifice, you know, so sort of sometimes it does mean, you know, sacrificing, you know, for the good of the whole, which is a hard, like that’s a hard, hard conversation.
12:05
And then pushing into the fears, you know, just the, I think there’s a, you know, when you when you’re getting good at something and then to be told, OK, hey, we want you to shift and move into a different space just to acknowledge and, you know, acknowledge that.And people have different wiring.Some people love the new thing, some people wanna do the same thing for 20 plus years.
12:23
So yes, recognising that as well.Yeah, yeah.OK.So helpful.Just sort of wanted to pull it aside.Hopefully some useful stuff there as you’re thinking about this from a senior leader, but also some useful things to be thinking about as well.And then I guess lastly on that, just thinking about the culture of your teams as well.
12:39
So helpful to hear that Norwest example of they’ve got a culture of, hey, we move, you know, we move around spots and we’re happy to slot in.Like I’m thinking of the Cannery Bulldogs, you know, at the moment where we’ve, we’ve got a long list of people who are, we’re in suspension and we’ve, you know, we’ve got a number of.
12:54
People calling people off the bench.People are coming off the bench and they’re jumping into different positions.Yep.And we’re still.Running that well, it didn’t go well last weekend.So I saw a point, Joe, But I appreciate your care for my county Bulldogs.And really try to engage in the sports metaphors.Yeah, it didn’t go.Well, it didn’t.Go well.
13:10
So maybe, maybe a caution retail for us?OK, so back back on topic.How do we get effective second tier chairs?What’s it really important to focus on?I think, OK, so we’re thinking about a model where you’ve got a focus on their specialist depth.
13:28
I think that’s really important.I think it’s also thinking about how the second cheerleader can contribute to the whole ecosystem to make disciples.So we need a team that’s committed in that ecosystem.You know, 1% more to the to the whole team in their own area, building healthy relationships within that team, having a shared scoreboard and outcomes, looking out for other team members.
13:51
I was looking at a book called Never Let Alone by Keith Ferrazzi.He talks about teamship rather than leadership and in his appendix and and throughout the book he’s got a whole bunch of things that teams that are really concerned with.He talks about Co elevating each other.
14:07
There are things they do like being equally committed to all the goals of the team and each other to get there, holding each other accountable, Co creating and innovating together quite boldly, but having caring and trusting and supportive relationships.I think part of this is also just understanding that each second chair leader will have specific gifts that they can contribute to the team.
14:30
So if someone’s really good at recruiting on your team, how can they help other team members to do that well?What can the team learn together to improve that sense of teamship?So hard conversations, emotional intelligence, or even commitment to things like mission.
14:46
It’s not the responsibility of one person, but the whole team.But thinking about all the second cheerleaders is how can they contribute to the ecosystem?And then I think the third part of the model is how can they serve as a strategic partner across the whole church, supporting the leadership of the senior pastor?
15:04
How can they add value beyond their specific lane?So the first tier role can be really lonely.And I think it’s unfair to place on the senior pastor the whole burden of developing and communicating and implementing church vision or significant change management.
15:21
But imagine the team all actually contributing to that.So it depends on the size of the church.The senior leader can’t be, for example, connected to everyone in the church, but the second cheerleader can bring really helpful Intel from other parts of the church about how things are impacting people.
15:38
They can also support the senior leader noticing if they need a break to be a confidential sounding board or to speak into helpful spaces where only a small number of people really have that influence and opportunity.But imagine the opportunities to develop your second cheerleaders into areas like HR or budgeting or planning, which would all actually help the senior pastor and would give them exposure to new areas that might they might grow into a new role in future.
16:07
Which which requires a self awareness about your strengths and gifts as a senior leader.Yeah.It also requires that conversation about understanding the second chair’s strengths and gifts.Yeah, I think.I think it also can touch on identity issues for the senior leader.
16:23
So they need to be able to feel comfortable releasing some of those areas, seeing someone do a better job than them and feeling OK with that and being able to celebrate that.So it does require permission and encouragement and celebration from the senior leader to be able to do that.
16:39
OK.I want to, I want to finish with just reflecting on the character traits essential for a second chair leader.So you’re speaking to the senior minister, you know what, what should they be looking for?You’re speaking to the second chair leader.What is it?What are some things that they actually need to work on developing in their in their character?
16:57
Yeah, so you’d want all of the characteristics of godliness, the Christlikeness needed for any follower of Jesus.It’s a given.And any leader.OK, so I’m not put that information.Yeah.Good caveat.Yeah, I think quite a submissive heart to be able to recognise the authority that’s been placed over your life in including the senior pastor and to do that willingly.
17:21
So that’s really important, a real sense of service.So a real kind of whatever it takes attitude.So willing to step in a crisis to help with the team to be when, when you’re asked to do things that aren’t in line with your gifts or your things that you’re focused on being glad to do that and not annoyed.
17:40
Make a real sense of thankfulness for your church, for your senior leader, for the opportunities that you have to serve and to lead and being able to celebrate with other people in your team when they get opportunities.But I think also just passion.
17:56
So a passion for saying the best for the gospel in your church and in your community, which means that you’re going to lead up really well.You’ll push back, you’ll ask questions, you’ll challenge the thinking of others.So submission could make you not spineless, but a little bit passive, whereas passions needed to really push for excellence or gospel growth as well as being content at the same time.
18:23
So I think those two held intention are really important.It’s.Interesting.I think a lot of a lot of senior leaders are often looking for the, you know, the team of superstars.Yeah, and I’m not saying you know superstar in this all I’m saying submissive serve you know 7 hearted yeah someone who’s sacrificial and you know passionate not for their area only but for for the whole and in anyways.
18:48
There’s a challenge in all of these to the senior leader to be cultivating that among amongst your team.Yeah.But I think as well to be prepared and planned, you know, so that, you know, you’re not always coming to a couple of key people on your team who are always ready and willing to do this.
19:06
Yeah.Because that can be wearying and.They can be overused.Yeah, they can.They can be overused.So just to just to be aware of that.So Joe, what does it look like for a senior pastor to give clarity, freedom, affirmation?They’re often not used with a senior pastor, but what does it look like for a senior pastor to give clarity, freedom, affirmation to team members?
19:28
I think part of it is doing something like listening to this episode together and getting clarity about what what’s, what’s the range of things that a second chair leader can be involved in.I think also partly filling that out on job description.So it’s not just a one liner, but we’re not only talking about specialist steps.
19:44
What are the strategic areas or the ecosystem things that could be involved that could be involved in giving some freedom.I was hearing Ross Wilson say the other day, you can have control or you can have growth, but you can’t have both.And so really to loosen up some of that control, to actually be able to hand some things over to your team to 2nd chairs based on their gifts and their interests and to kind of let go of those and see what they do with them.
20:14
And it will need some of that humility and non defensiveness to see them do well with that, but also support as they step into those new areas.Yeah.And then affirmation.Noticing gifts, noticing contributions, celebrating the team, really giving helpful feedback as the team move into new areas.
20:33
But to do that, to really enjoy each other’s differences, how God has made us of the body as the body of Christ, and celebrate and give thanks for that together.So Joe, what’s the one thing about effective second cheerleaders?Effective second cheerleaders really understand the breadth of this role, really understand all the opportunities that are available to them as well as the challenges of that role, and they’re digging into that and they’re finding ways to be serving across the team and across the church, supporting the senior pastor.
21:04
Well, thanks, Joe.Really helpful to push into this and think about this from the perspective of the second chair leader, but also from the senior minister, senior pastor as well.Just diving in the toolbox.We’ll list a number of books and articles that you can dive in if you want to push down and go deeper in this.
21:20
As always, if you thought this was helpful, share it around talking about with your team, have that conversation.And then lastly, the team development programme.We’ll put a link in the show notes to the team development programme.That’s a great place to learn more about this either as a second cheerleader or as a senior pastor bringing along their whole team.
21:38
So if you’ve got someone on your team and you’re thinking, hey, I want to develop them, then that’s a great place for them to be developed over over a two year period.Well, if you’ve got a topic that you like us to cover as well, please email us at [email protected] dot AU.I’m Scott Sanders.
21:53
I’m Jay Gibbs.Chat soon.
