Matt Gorton and Scruff chat about common mistakes in kids’ ministry:
- Assuming biblical knowledge
- Using Christian jargon without explanation
- Lack of visual engagement
- Trying to teach too much at once
- Neglecting dramatic conflict
Matt Gorton is the Creative Director of Quiz Worx, an organisation focused on sharing Jesus with kids, primarily through live puppet shows in schools.
Their approach deliberately fills a gap, doing things most local churches can’t—like extensive show preparation, high-level puppetry, and engaging storytelling with theological depth.
Puppets like Scruff play a crucial role by creating dramatic tension, challenging the human presenter, and asking the tough or silly questions kids might be too shy to ask. This keeps shows engaging and relatable while allowing clear gospel communication.
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TRANSCRIPT:
The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
And welcome to the one thing it’s a podcast designed to give you one solid practical tip for Gospel Center ministry every week.The one thing’s brought to you by Richard Australia where we want to see thousands of healthy evangelistic and multiplying churches.All right.We got a fun one for you today.We have Matt from quiz works, and he’s made scarf.
0:27
Welcome guys.Yeah, thank you so much.Hi everyone.I’m Matt and I’m scruff And here to talk about quiz Worx kids ministry a whole bunch of opportunities that are there Scruff tell us.It’s what what tell us a bit about yourself.
0:42
Oh well, I am a puppy dog and I love eating chalk coated bones, or are they they just a special treat?Well.Well, they’re meant to be a special treat, but I’m a very special dog.
0:58
So I have them all the time, but sometimes I’ll do run out of chocolate bones.So then I have to go and I chase Puddy cats and dipping them in chocolate or they’re really nice and and then if that’s not working, then sometimes just posting yeah, all right?
1:13
I think we’re saying the movie into some legal issues, so we’re just going to keep moving it.Is exactly right?But you have pressed on another episode of the one thing we are looking at. quiz Worx and the opportunities kids Ministries have Today’s podcast is brought to you by kids.
1:35
Wise.Masterclass kids wise masterclass seeks to develop those who lead the children’s ministry in the local church, masterclass seeks to help you grow your ministry in both depth and reach without burning out join Sandy Galia and others from around the world for 10 classes over 10 months and explore how to thrive in your ministry role.
1:54
Why not explore if kids wise masterclass is right for you.Head to website kids wise dot com.au and now back to the podcast all right.I’m going to ask you questions.We’ll see what Scruff does along the way, but it’s boring everybody to now.
2:12
I don’t know but where did quiz work come from.Tell us a bit more about what quiz works is and where did I come from yeah, yeah well quiz Worx quiz Worx exist to share Jesus with kids everywhere and the main way.We do that is through doing live puppet shows in schools, though.
2:28
We also make some resources where to quiz Worx come from well way back in the late 90s one day.I was sitting at home with nothing else to do and I went along to our puppet workshop, which was being put on at my local church.
2:45
And I only went because I had nothing else to do it wasn’t it was it?I wasn’t interested in puppets or anything like that.I like to kids.I worked in kids ministry in kids ministry in after school care and long day care, but I was all my ministry stuff was in youth ministry, but Sitting home on a Saturday afternoon well on this puppet workshop, put on by logos store Simon and now from Augusta store, and it was so good.
3:16
Of course.It was puppets were there yes.Thanks and Pulled ugly who was our youth minister at the time made me up at me.Yeah, he made the first ever Scruff did some shows with him at different schools.
3:35
After a while, he went off to a different church.Couldn’t travel around doing any kind of itinerant Ministry anymore, and so he said well Matt why don’t you and make Simon start to win stuff, so that’s when quiz Worx was born.
3:51
So why quiz Worx why did you call that?well, we thought we did a name and we could call ourselves Simon and Matt but that was pretty boring and so we came up with the name quiz Worx our thinking whether it was before or after.
4:11
We honestly can’t remember, but in ACT 16.There’s the philippian jailer after the earthquake.Anything’s everybody’s run away, and the Philippines are calls out serves.What must I do to be saved and we reckon that’s a great question or the greatest quiz that you’ve got to have and we work harder to answering it.
4:31
Oh you spell work wrong.Yes, we did there was cool back in those days to spell works with an x instead of a ks.Yeah, that was back in the day when you are you misspelled words and things like you know, I would do the whole bunch of metal bands that many should do that trademark thing, but let’s go back.
4:48
What is what is quiz Worx need to exist what exactly do you guys do that?Churches?Don’t yeah?Well as the main thing that we do is we go into particularly schools and do assemblies, so particularly scripture or sre in, New South Wales and religious instruction. and in Queensland that we also traveled throughout Australia and a little bit into New Zealand and we do half our assemblies for all the scripture kids and one of our core values is that we aim to do things that are local church, most local churches couldn’t do so we work we spent hundreds of hours in preparing for the shows the artwork the making sure it’s really engaging the whole way through and the puppetry is generally at a higher standard than what most people can do and it’s a great biblical depth to the the stuff that you’re doing as well.
5:50
I’ve seen this and yeah, it’s it’s not just our we’re just tell the story is actually a great depth to what you what you’re presenting as well.Yeah, so in the hundreds of hours that go into it a whole lot of that is done in looking at the Bible and trying to work out.What is this Bible passage or what is the big idea that is being taught here?
6:09
Yeah, I actually think that’s one of the biggest things.That is missing in a lot of kids ministry is people are either really biblical, but boring or really.Fun but very little depth.
6:25
We aim to try to get both and where because most of our work is done in a school setting most of these kids.Don’t have a huge Bible knowledge themselves, so we’re also trying to make sure things are done in a way that kids without. lifetime of hearing about Jesus can still understand be Brought to Jesus yeah, let’s talk a bit about the opportunities.
6:50
You have at school.Why are you focus so much on schools?And what are some of the opportunities that are there?Yeah?It’s actually one of the hardest things to do is work out.Where do you focus and when quiz work started?We actually we’re doing primarily stuff in churches doing, you know family services or whatever most weekends.
7:11
We would be out at a different church doing that, but then when I started full-time back in 2003.We were getting invitations into schools and I realized.Even a Outreach Service at a church. 90% of the people that are there are still church people are hearing about Jesus all the time in a school setting 90% or 95% of those kids aren’t having into a church on a regular basis, and so we get an incredible opportunity to go in in partnership with our scripture teachers with the religious instructors and share Jesus with these kids now their parents of all opted them in so it’s not like we’re coming in and the parents go what’s going on?
8:04
the men and so we go in and we set forth Jesus as clearly as we can in a fun creative way.Why do you guys keep using puppets now?You know scruffy, but maybe he can explain it, but why puppets seemed to be a little out of Vogue but you guys use them, so well, why you keep using puppets?
8:22
What do you mean?We’re out of vote?What do you mean by that?I’m sorry I was I don’t know what I see you.I’m always in Vogue Yeah, right.Yeah well the reason I use me is because I’m very funny and I am very good looking and I’m pretty funny yeah, that’s well.
8:40
That’s pretty much it.The reason we use puppets is as soon as the puppet pops up on stage people’s defenses drop.They just enjoy it, and they can ask the questions that maybe the kids are to afraid to ask but maybe I thinking and we can challenge you because I don’t think you know what you’re talking about Matt well.
9:01
That’s actually that’s one of the things that quiz Worx always does is the puppet always challenges the person who’s teaching the person the humans are always doing the teaching.The puppets aren’t doing the the teaching part, but they’re challenging so that we can actually see what’s in the Bible or what does this mean on a much deeper level and I deeper level that’s that’s kind of creating this dramatic tension, isn’t it?
9:25
You know here?Is this puppet and puppets get to say whatever they want like they are can be. they’ll say this is you graph, but can be completely unhinged and just I’m unhinged yeah.Yeah, I wasn’t sure where that was a positive for a nickel that I was completely positive guess sure but that’s that’s what puppets can do as they can actually ask that question along the way yeah, yeah, and I think that’s the whole tension thing, what makes a good show is tension that and you watch anything that’s worth watching and there’s always tension.
10:01
There’s always conflict and our puppets.Help.Bring that and yeah one of the things we had a guy start with us at quiz Worx a number of years ago.Who was just an incredible puppeteer.But when he actually came to do the shows with us.
10:17
They weren’t quite working.I was like I don’t understand so I would be doing a show with Clarence oh Clarence is my bestest mate in the whole wide world.Yeah, Clarence I was a guy.That was a puppet that I worked with for a very long time and I do a show with him, and then a show with this other person’s puppet, and it was the same show same lines, and it just wasn’t working and we realized after a while.
10:42
It was because the other puppet was being too nice instead of challenging.It was a green.It’s like ah, it’s like a way a whole lot of the conflict.Once we got through that became a whole lot better, so it’s important that puppets are unhinged at this point.Yes, very young hinged now.
10:58
You’ve seen a lot of other.I mean you guys obviously do great presentations, but you’ve seen other people do different kids talks and things like that.What are you think are some of the common mistakes that you see people make when they’re doing kids talks.Yeah well, so I think of depending on where you’re talking about where they’re doing kids talks kids talks in churches.
11:18
Actually.Yeah.We should make that Distinction because you really are focusing on people who are church you know, they’ve got an understanding of different things at the Bible they actually understand certain concepts so that they can kind of grasp certain things and then there is the unchurched some of the mistakes that you’ve seen people make yeah, well, I think. one of the things that can be done so often is that because we know we assume that the kids know and so where moving on to things that maybe aren’t the essentials sure aren’t you essentially about Jesus or get sidetracked onto some minor issue or not straight Jesus issues.
12:15
So every show that we do is always going to be about Jesus and so I think some of the time people will get talk to kids, as if they know, as if they’re talking to their church kids, which is a great thing to do is great to talk to you church.
12:33
Kids are interested.Yeah.Good to talk about mistakes are saying people make their as well, but Yeah, I think that would probably be one of the biggest things, so just assume is it assuming ideas or using christianese, jargon?Yeah, I think both of those both of those things as soon as you start using any Christian these jargons like oh Have you explained that like what does that word mean one of the big things that we’re always try to write a song that goes with our show and one of the things that we’re always trying to do is think okay other words in this understandable.
13:06
And if they’re not automatically understandable when we’re teaching them.We’re explaining what this means, so I think that’s yeah some of the time people use christianese, language other times.They’re just assuming that kids will know what you’re talking about or what the issue is.
13:24
Because of course all church kids know that but these aren’t church kids that were talking to and just I just want to make this clear.So you’re not you’re not watering down the gospel at this point of time.You’re just making sure that it’s understandable and clear.This is a great mission of principle, isn’t it?
13:41
Yeah 100% where we’re always trying to make sure that what we’re saying we can go.This is what the Bible is teaching now.We are in a state school, which is where most of our work is we are trying to follow the guidelines that are there and so there are some topics that we’re not going to touch when we’re in a state school because that would be inappropriate, but we are allowed to go in and talk about the core tenants of the Christian faith, and so we just go well, let’s talk about Jesus and let’s we’re not going to teach them everything.
14:15
They need to know about Jesus what we’re going to do is we’re going to teach them something true about Jesus which is actually what I think Jesus He goes, he doesn’t sit the kids down when the kids are coming to him.He doesn’t go excellent.You’ve come now.I want to sit there and go through the five points that you need to know.
14:33
She just goes no come to me you’ve seen that.I am trustworthy come to me and I will accept you and say the kingdom of god belongs to you who is coming to me.And then so yeah.We’re always just going to get okay.What’s the one big thing that we’re going to teach and say over and over again anybody?
14:53
Who’s watched any of our shows know that we say our big idea like 50 times.Oh yeah.Yeah.It’s unmistakable.There is why I I can say.Yeah.There is one clear idea that you guys and you get it across very very clear.So if when the kids leave when the adults leave they know what it is that they’ve just heard about yeah, they may not remember all the different parts, but they’re going to remember that God is great or that Jesus is in control, which was our Easter Show yeah, so really I just Recap.
15:24
There’s a little bit of making sure there’s a one clear idea.Not using ideas that people don’t understand the other mistakes that you’ve seen as people.Are you seeing people try and teach kids or unchurched?I would I’m not sure whether this is specifically to the non-church kids.
15:45
I think this is just across the board in kids ministry stuff is yeah.Well, we already said the one thing some of the time people are trying to get too many things in other times.They’re also there’s nothing to look at or there’s no conflict, so I think when I was starting a quiz works, as I was writing shows.
16:06
I mean we would very rarely actually go off the script that I wrote, but the script was always there to help us know where we were headed and Simon the guy that would work with me would just put Circles Around paragraphs and go.
16:21
So what are the kids looking at?What are the kids looking at?What are the kids look at that and I think that’s a thing that I see a whole lot including kids talks in church.Is that people are just talking?With nothing visual happening, and so your kids are just going okay.
16:39
I’m lost.So you want to have but then you also want to make sure that the visuals that you do have.Linked directly with what you’re saying and that you reveal them at exactly the right time, so you don’t want to reveal your picture early because then everybody’s already saying the punchline.
16:56
You don’t want to do it.Light so I think that would be one of the things is yeah, what are the kids looking at?What are they doing?Are they being involved?And is their conflict conflict conflict conflict where I love that that’s great?Yeah, it’s the need for puppets.
17:11
So yes, yes, actually this whole thing is going to be boring.You’ve just been talking Matt what what else could we talk about?What else can we talk about?Could we talk about putting cats know?I don’t think anybody’s really interested in that hole.I should be this is sorry scrap.This is not the podcast the podcast.
17:27
I’m sorry really know you said that you said come in to The Reach Australia is pretty cats know a podcast not reach.Australia is pretty cats.Sorry so scarf.Yeah.
17:42
We gotta have to keep moving on.We’ll find another podcast for you.Yeah, I’m sure we’ll find one for you okay now.I would come back to you a little bit more you talk to just any mistakes that you see the common mistakes.You see when people are doing talks to church because we talked a little bit about church kids.
17:59
What about that?Similar the same mistakes, or is there probably the same mistakes just done in a different way.So yeah where you’re talking.All you start talking to the adults, so one of the things I love and I’m always encouraging.
18:18
So if we’ve got ministers listing, which I know we do. having something in the church all the time that the kids are involved in so often is called a kids talk or an all-age section where you are talking to the kids as well, but often the people who are on the kids talks May also think oh I don’t always get to be in front of people, so I’m going to actually talk to the adults.
18:48
Over the kids, so I’ll call it the kids talk, but really I’ll be talking to the adults.Yeah, I think that’s great.You talking.It’s a kid’s talk.You’re talking to the kids the 100% The adults will listen at lots of people who will come and say.
19:05
Afterwards, I don’t always follow the sermon, but I always get something out of here.How important do you think it is to have a kid’s spot in church.I look I am all I think it’s a really important thing.Actually, I think if you’re going to have kids in church, which I actually do think you should do.
19:25
Then I think if they are there you need to acknowledge that they’re there.You can’t just go all right.Well, you’ve been here.You’re 15 minutes now.The kids are going to go and they’re going, but why was I here that 15 minutes because I didn’t understand anything.You didn’t talk to me.So definitely when I’m leading the service.
19:42
I will try to think my welcome intro.I’m trying to think there are also kids here.I’m not doing the kids.Talk there, but I’m trying to think how am I engaging kids and adults at this time.Sometimes.I’m successful sometimes not so and then the kids talk.
19:59
I just think there is something about that and I really do a kid’s talk and a kid’s song because I actually think that changes the dynamics of a church service because definitely the church the churches that I’m used to We stand and we seeing and we seeing pretty gusty, but we all stand there quite still you do a kid’s song and suddenly all these people are moving around a little bit more pentecostalism.
20:26
You know how to say that on this podcast.I don’t know but anyway um so people are moving and they’re using their whole cells to praise and worship god and it just changes the Dynamic of the service, but yeah, I think doing something where the kids go.
20:44
Oh they think this is important enough for me.So I’m all for that.Yeah, you’ve got to make sure that you’ve got one clear big idea that you’re teaching.What the passage is teaching not just what you want to do, so you’ve got to do all the Bible work yourself and work hard at that some of the time.
21:07
You see it.I’m not sure that you’ve actually taught us anything.You are.Maybe a little bit engaging, but didn’t really teach us anything so It’s coming back to what you said before.You know you can you can be really biblically faithful, and there are other people can be really fun.
21:22
But actually what you need.You need both of those together in order to engage kids and help them to understand that the gospel is is good news.Yeah, because again.That’s the thing isn’t it that you know we kind of go it’s not just news.It’s good news.Yeah, we want to be engaged with that, and so yeah, and I think that that is the thing is.
21:39
This is good news.You want the kids and you want the adults to realize this is amazing news.Not always happy news, and the time you’re going to be doing a passage.That’s actually not about happy news.So you might do a series on job, but you do some kids talks on that and yet.
21:55
You’re still also going to be at a point to the fact that actually there is still hope. so yeah, which actually means one of the things for kids talks and for kids Church like the people who do you get to it you actually want people who can think be politically as well.
22:12
Don’t don’t do put on the young people like let’s encourage our youth to be involved and the young adults to be involved and get lots of people involved, but you also need some more mature people who came okay.
22:28
I’m going to get alongside this less mature person and help them understand the Bible so then we can teach that to kids.Um yeah, I think that would be important thing to do now.I want to ask as you mentioned the senior ministers before if you had no opportunity to talk with senior ministers, as someone who spends a lot of time talking with kids who are unchurched.
22:50
What advice would you give a senior minister?I would encourage them.To see the importance of this ministry.Not the importance of quiz works.Yes, but the importance of Ministry to kids outside of just this Sunday morning, or they’re the people who come to them. because there are Yeah, that’s an area that can get lost with senior ministers, isn’t it?
23:18
Because I’ve got my kids get the kids ministry.I’ve got that tick.I’ve got the adults tick.I’ve got the adults that I’m trying to reach tech but that that kids who are unreached.That’s a whole area that they sometimes Miss yeah, yeah, and sometimes you know actually I have had an in the last church.
23:37
I was I had a number of people when when they came to church, are we going to visit them?So what you along?I said well our kids decided.We should go to church, so we started going to church.Yeah, it was the the adults following the kids.Yeah, and from the adults dedicated their lives to Jesus which was great, but it was if we weren’t thinking about unreached kids none of that would have happened.
23:59
Yeah, and I think again New South Wales and Queensland we are it’s legislated that the faith people the faith Churches of faith can go in and teach. scripture or religious instruction for those whose parents have opted them in and that’s there are still a whole lot of kids who are sitting in those classes. who are in the local area who don’t go along to church who are his parents have said I’m happy for you to teach them from the Bible And if the ministers aren’t saying, this is something that’s important, I want to encourage people in my church.
24:45
To be in there and that will stop. for government will say we’ll look we’ve given you this opportunity.You’re not feeling it, so we’re taking it away, and that would be right of them to do that.I think and I 100% get ministers are busy job and there is so much going on in local churches that I’ve always been part of Church and man.
25:09
There is so many opportunities, but I do think because it doesn’t always have a direct flow on effect.Then it can so easily be forgotten and lost and I think that’s just a really really sad and I’ve heard of so many people who maybe later in life.
25:28
In fact.I heard talking to another minister who said somebody came along to their church.He was 30 years or something like that and had never been to church.But some things were going on in his life, and he remembered back to the days when he was in scripture, and he goes well, they see I can’t remember what they taught me, but I know is about god and stuff and they’re from a church.
25:53
So I’m coming along to a church other times.I’ve heard of things on Facebook page going my child does religious instruction and they’re asking me all these questions.Does anybody have a good church that I can go to now on that Facebook page.They got give them, you know 500 different churches, but Yeah, that wouldn’t happen if people weren’t in there, so please make the most of it.
26:18
You’ve talked a lot about New South Wales of Queensland that’s obviously where you do the bulky.What about the other states?So there are opportunities there to reach kids from church backgrounds yeah well, it’s It’s a different thing one of the things that I’ve heard of people doing is a local church adopting.
26:38
Their local school and going okay, we want to serve this school.So is there a working day?Let’s go along to the work of me?Oh, they got to fight.Let’s go along and help man.This dolls at the fight not necessarily putting on the church stall just helping out being part of the PNC Building a relationship with the school to say if you ever need anything let us know we will do what we can to help.
27:07
And then of course when that school has something that comes up.They’re going to think who can we look to oh wait.We’ve got this church.That is there always wanted to serve us not asking for things.Just serving us.
27:24
Let’s contact them and say can you this is just happen.Can you come in and help us or a teacher that you’ve got to know through that something happens, or a parent sees them or all those kind of things and then hopefully maybe the school would also be willing to.
27:42
If the church is running a holiday kids got shot well, maybe in the church of the school would be open to oh yeah, you can put that in the school use letter or put up signs around it or whatever because you’ve got that relationship as opposed to having no relationship.Just going in and going yeah, can you do this?
27:58
Why would they say?Yes?Yeah, it’s about building that bridge of trust, and it investing the time into that.Yeah, all right.This is the one thing.What’s the one thing you want people to know about quiz works.Oh, they want people to know about quiz works.Well, I’ve been talking about our live shows.
28:15
So if you are in, New South Wales and Queensland Focus for a live show, we also have a whole lot of resources quiz works.com.That are all for free that people can use in their schools.We’ve got a school delivery and a home delivery home delivery is stuff for churches and at home.
28:33
So use what we have.Hopefully, it’s good for you and your kids.I’m sure it will be you can check out that that website.We’ve got that in the toolbox.You’re going to be at the National Conference coming up.Yes, yes, so make sure if you’re coming to the National Conference make sure you go to maps workshop, and he will be around so make sure you meet Matt and a Scruff he’ll be there as well.
28:58
Yeah, looking forward to seeing you at the National Conference and they’re gonna be pretty cats there.Oh, no.I can’t promise.Sorry.There’s no placement either.Sorry.Oh, hey, let’s put a call out.
29:14
Everybody who’s coming to the richest Australia Conference please bring your chalk coated bones and bring them to the quiz Worx stall There you go stuff that might just happen.You might you might be able to pull it off, but yeah, thanks for joining by both you.
29:31
Thank you for joining us.Thank you.Thanks.And if you’ve got a topic you want us to cover make sure you email us resources that reach australia.com.au or just send us an email.Just love to say hi.I’m Pete yes.Chat soon.Bye.
