Kids’ ministry burns out leaders faster than most church roles, and the trend is spiking. Sandy Galea shares her real-life struggle as a children’s ministry director, as well as her observations as someone who oversees many people who work in this area. Why does it happen?
- The mismatch of expectations and the actual job description of a kids’ minister
- The mismatch of the resources needed (especially time) and the actual resources needed to run a ministry
- The danger of not seeing kids’ ministry as a legitimate ministry and career for those who work in it
- The importance of discipling the discipler of kids in your ministry
Sandy Galea is the direction of Kidwise, a ministry that seeks to support local churches in the discipleship of kids.
TOOLBOX:
The Surprising Grief in Kids’ Ministry (TGC Article)
Kidswise Equip (live online training) For: parents, volunteers, kids ministry directors
Kidswise Academy (individual or group training options) For: parents, volunteers, kids ministry directors, ministry team leaders
Kidswise Masterclass (10 classes over 10 months) how to lead a kids ministry that grows in depth and reach without burning out .
Kidswise Consult For: individual or staff team – kids ministry directors, staff teams.
CREDITS:
This episode was brought to you by Kidswise Masterclass
The One Thing is brought to you by Reach Australia
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TRANSCRIPT:
The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
0:08
G’day on P Hughes and welcome to The One Thing, a podcast designed to give you one solid, practical tip for gospel centred ministry.Every week The One Thing’s brought to you by Reach Australia and we want to see thousands of healthy, evangelistic and multiplying churches all over our country.Healthy church includes everyone.
0:24
And when I mean everyone, I mean everyone, even people under the age of 18.We’re talking about kids today.Last week we had Sandy Glio with us.Sandy’s back.Thanks for joining us.Pleasure.Thank you for having me.And I do want to say, if you haven’t heard that episode, make sure you go back and listen to it.
0:41
It’s really, really good on the perception of kids ministry.We were talking a little bit about moving to Dubai that you and your husband have have done recently.What what else?When you come to Australia, what’s what’s something that you really love to do?Last time I spoke about people, it’s always people, always people, friends, particularly family and the joy of seeing people.
1:04
When I come back, I think one of the things that I do personally is I take my shoes off and I walk on green grass.And just that that feeling of green grass under your feet is a beautiful thing.And also I miss the green of Australia.
1:20
You know, we, we have a we have a beauty in Dubai, but we don’t have the green of Australia.But my husband, he misses water that throws him back.He just, he wants water that will throw him out.Yeah.And so he misses the waves of Australia.Yeah.So he loves to come back and dive under waves and catch waves.
1:37
Yeah.He did.He mentioned that in a in another episode earlier on about how much he he misses the surf and Australia.We are so spoiled for that here I think.It’s a beautiful country.But today we’re going to be talking about a fairly serious topic.We’re continuing on talking about kids ministry.
1:54
But for now, you pressed play on another episode of The One Thing We’re Talking about burnout in Kids ministry.Today’s podcast is brought to you by Kids Wise Master Class Kids Wise Master Class seeks to develop those who lead the children’s ministry in the local church.
2:11
Master Class seeks to help you grow your ministry in both depth and reach without burning out.Join Sandy Galea and others from around the world for 10 classes over 10 months and explore how to thrive in your ministry role.Why not explore if Kids Wise Master Class is right for you?Head to website kidswise.com dot AU.
2:28
And now back to the podcast.Now, Sandy, I would say kids ministry, we talked a little bit in the last episode about how it’s a fairly resource intensive place, but it’s also a place where we’re seeing increasing burnout.
2:45
Is that right?Because you have you see a lot of kids ministry people and that sort of thing.So are we seeing more burnout there?Well, I certainly AM.And so just from my experience, I think probably the last 10 years in particular, I’ve seen more burnout than in the previous 30 years in Australia.
3:06
So 30 years as kids ministry director last 10 years now I probably say that you know, it was went from 1:00 every few years to now one every few months.So that’s the difference, that’s.A huge it.Could be that I just know more people and people talk to me more, so it could be that this is all but the proportion.
3:27
It just seems to be growing at an increasingly alarming rate.But it is actually hard to get the data because the person I’ve ever seen in the kids ministry is often part time and often voluntary.And so they, they do it for a few years and then they change.
3:45
Now, it may not be that they’ve burnt out.It’s the reason why they step out.It could be that, you know, they have a baby or they’re, they’re now doing full time work.Or it may be that that what they thought they would be doing, they’re not doing and they’re not sure how to, they know how to disciple children, They just don’t know how to lead the ministry.
4:05
So it could be a gift mix thing.Yeah, I was going to say because sometimes I think people go into kids ministry thinking they’re going to be doing, doing kids ministry, Yeah.Whereas actually what they’re actually doing is leading people and and.You spend more time with adults than you do with children.Yeah, but you’re gifted into cycling children.
4:22
So it can be that, you know, it’s the reason why it’s hard to get data on the burnout is because you have this, this changeover, this churn in whoever is leading kids ministry, particularly in smaller churches, when you get to the vocational kids ministry director, you know, they could be, they often are these people who are paid, they still can be part time, but they’re often, you know, increasing days sometimes, sometimes they’re full time.
4:49
And, and what we’re, what I’m saying is that there’s a churn at the end of three years.There’s also the natural churn at the end of five to seven years where you either move to a different church and change scenery or that’s where sometimes the burnout happened.
5:09
But I’ve, I’ve journeyed with people in recent years who’ve been in kids ministry, driving kids ministries for 1520 years and experiencing burnout.So it can come at any time in your journey and I’ve experienced it twice in my 30 years or came close to burning out once.
5:31
The first time I think I did burnout.So do you think that idea of burnout is because I look around the, the place and I, I don’t see, I’ll, as you’ve mentioned, there are some people who will do kids ministry for a long time at 1520 years.I don’t see a lot of people seeing this is, this is my big long term career.
5:52
Is is that part of the reason do you think?Well, look, I think I, I mean, if, if you’re talking in terms of males vocationally doing kids ministry, I think one of the things is that amongst their peers, it’s not quite as valued.
6:11
So I’ve had males come and talk to me who love kids and are really gifted at leading kids ministry.But they keep getting comments like when are you going to get a real job like and it’s said jokingly.It’s like, you know, like discipling people isn’t a real job, like in ministry like.
6:29
Yeah, unless you’re discipling adults, it’s not real.It’s like it’s it’s ministry is often for males in particular, seen as a stepping stone into real ministry.And so that’s that’s when you’re a male.That can be very, you know, just undermining your confidence and.
6:49
It can affect value it, Yeah, I know it shouldn’t affect your identity, but it can affect your identity, yeah.It’s devaluing what you’re doing.Yeah, yeah, yeah.It’s devaluing.And and that’s coming back to our previous episode, we talked a little bit about with perceptions that, you know, perception of kids ministry is that it’s not real discipleship that that’s a, there’s a false perception that is out there.
7:09
OK, let’s come back to burnout though.What does that burnout look like?Well, I mean, burnout looks the same in kids ministry.It doesn’t Every other ministry, you know, it’s that it’s, you know, when you’re going through burnout, it’s you know, you’re feeling exhausted when you rest, you don’t feel rested.
7:26
You know, you dread turning up.You feel like a failure.You’ve got, you know, poor sleep, you’re irritable, you’re easily frustrated.You feel guilty because your capacity is completely dropped.Can’t make decisions that you used to be able to make and you feel empty and, and really like there’s just no joy.
7:44
There’s just no joy.It’s like the joy has been sucked out of the room.And for me, when I look back at my 2 experiences, 1 of burnout and one of near burnout, it was a growing feeling of numbness.That sort of was my warning thing.
8:01
I just felt numb.My my joy in my ministry just felt numb.You know, God was doing these wonderful things.Kids were saying yes to Jesus and I I knew I knew that this was amazing.You know, I should be celebrating, but I just felt numb and and then I became numb to people, people within my church and people within my family.
8:25
At worst, I became numb to God do.You mind if I ask at what point for you was this?I’m not just tired, I’m actually, I’m, I’m numb.I actually need to do something.Was there a moment there for you to go?I need to actually respond to this.
8:42
Yeah, yeah, I look, it happened such a long time ago.But I do remember, I do remember when I first, when I first realised that I was burning out, I was actually doing a seminar on burnout for kids, ministry directors.
9:00
And there was 10 things that you had to tick and grade yourself.And I ticked and graded myself in the red zone for every one of them.And I went home and I said, because my husband had been saying, you know, he, he’s very insightful.
9:16
He’s saying, actually, you know, there’s an elastic band that we all pull and we can stretch it a little while, but I’d stretch the elastic band way too hard for too long.I basically my burnout was because my work holism and, and so I’d stretched it way too long and I realised that it was about to break or I was close to breaking.
9:41
But I did feel that numbness, numbness to my ministry, numbness to people.I was just going through the notion motions and my my walk with with Jesus was just like mechanical.I’d lost my joy.It’s interesting that your your husband sort of spoke into that, I think.
9:59
And I think it’s really important for people who are experiencing burnout to actually listen to those around them to go, hey, I think it’s something not quite right here.One of the key people that probably should be looking at these other senior senior pastors, senior leaders of churches as they watch their kids, ministers, what should they be looking for?
10:17
Well, I mean, obviously look for the classic signs, all of those poor sleep, Irish ability, exhaustion, you know, just just turning up all the time looking tired.But I think when, when you’re meeting up with people, when I now that I made up with people, I always look for things like they’re joy, you know, are you enjoying Jesus?
10:39
You know, are you enjoying your ministry role?You know, what has I constantly ask people, what has brought you joy recently?And if there is no joy, then it, it could be other reasons, You know, it could be term 3 and it’s winter and we’re all sick and we’re tired and there’s not much joy in the winter time.
10:57
But so it could be seasonal, you know, depression.That’s, that’s, that’s there for a time.But if there is a sustained period where there is no joy, it’s one of the things that just keep going fishing and trying to find out what is actually happening to the person.
11:15
It’s like lack of joy is like a a warning light, you know, warning, warning, warning, danger, danger.Will Robinson for those people of a certain age.Isn’t that just such a great question though?What has brought you joy lately?And and anyone can ask it to anyone.So I’m thinking, I always try to think of what are those questions when church finishes to because guys are terrible at this.
11:35
We tend to go, how was your week?Good.How was your week good?I guess we’ll just wait for our wives to finish chatting and then we’ll go home.But to go what’s what’s some of those questions that can really go past that thing?And so to ask what’s brought you joy lately?That’s such a great question to ask.So, yeah.And have that not just as a have it as a diagnostic as well, though.
11:54
If people are kind of you’re meeting with someone regularly and they’re just not being able to answer it, I think is a great warning light.Sandy, let’s talk a little bit about the some of the unique pressures that people working in kids ministry might have that may lead to burnout particularly.So what are some of those unique pressures that kids who work, people who work in kids ministry have?
12:12
Yeah, well, kids ministry people are often uptime, but they often have the largest number of volunteers under them.So they’re they’re weekly disciple makers.And then if you have a healthy exception of children’s ministry, then they’re thinking parents as well, so.
12:28
That’s really hard, isn’t it?They’ve got the least amount of time and the most amount of, you know, people responsibility at the same time.Yeah.Doesn’t quite make sense, but.Sure.And they usually got the largest amount of resources.I remember one person said to me, you know, what are you doing?Kids ministry?
12:44
And I said, sometimes I feel like I just pick up boxes and move them from place to place.True, But you know, there’s a huge amount of resources and they have to be accessible for your volunteers.They have to be cleaned regularly, they have you have to do a risk assessment on every single piece of equipment and toy.So it’s like that’s just a nightmare.
13:00
Then they have a huge amount of administrative pressure.I remember years ago when MBM was finally getting their first paid administrator and we were so excited somebody was coming in and she was going to work, I think it was three days a week and we were going great.And everyone had to actually put in as staff.
13:18
And I was, I was unpaid on staff at this stage as the kids ministry director.And we all had to put in how many hours a week would we actually be able to hand over to the, this new administrator and most of the pastoral staff.
13:35
They, they did, you know, 2 hours, 3 hours.The membership pastor, he had a day, he was the biggest and I had two days, two days and they just looked at me and they said how come it’s two days?And I just went well, there’s registration processes, there’s role reconciliation, there’s need to know lists that have to come out every week.
13:54
There’s working with children’s check safe ministry records, I need a first aid list regularly updated, I need booking of facilities for training.I just went on and on and on.Dietary.Stars.Yeah, Ice glazed over.Yeah, ice glazed over.And I just went absolutely, I could use it.
14:10
Administration two days a week, but also like there’s so there’s resources as admin, then you’ve just got to do resource creation.So it’s not just like you’ve got to do the crafts, the printing, the the leaders manuals, the binding, the and then you’ve got to distribute all of that.And then on top of that you have these pressures of that that comes in so you’ve got all this logistic stuff, but then you’ve got the pressures of parent expectations.
14:37
Parents come with expectations that the the church will cater for the individual wishes for their children and they’re coming into a community and managing that.Managing children’s behaviour, understanding disability and how to actually include children with disability.
14:53
Juggling the limitations of your your space and your volunteers, but ensuring that safe ministry practises happen all the time, even when you’re not there.And then you’ve got the huge pressure that your ministry could actually close your church.
15:11
If a child is hurt, your church could close because your reputation has been shattered.That’s a huge pressure that you carry as the kids ministry director.I think I’m burnt out just hearing that and I I’m not even doing, I’m just hearing out of it.
15:27
It’s just I.Don’t think I’ve covered everything, but there’s a there’s a bit of a list I’ll.Tell you what, if you are listening to this, you’ve got a somebody on your staff who looks after kids ministry, go and say thank you to them next time you see them just so that you can understand some of the things that they do.But are there, are there particular pressure points for those who are leading that ministry?
15:45
Like I guess those personal pressure points?We talked a little bit about their scope of ministry.Yeah.Yeah, look, it’s over the over the last 10 years as people have come to me with their permission when they’re at a place where they’re journeying back from burnout.
16:00
I’ve, I’ve asked them, you know, what was, what were the pressures that came in on you that, that you think contributed to your burnout?And, and I, I started making a list.So let me share a couple of them.
16:16
I think for, for a lot of them, there was lack of ministry clarity.They, they were in, they did not know what they were employed to do.Were they employed to do the ministry or were they employed to equip others to multiply the ministry?That’s a very big distinction.
16:33
And most people step into the role because they’re good at doing the ministry.They’re just not good at multiplying.The ministry, it was interesting.That was a block for me.I had to shift and change.I had to work out.I just love discipling kids.
16:50
And it was almost like, oh, there’s more kids.I need some more people to help me.But I just wanted to do it.But I didn’t have a multiplying mindset.And so I hit a roadblock when I realised I actually needed to step out of discipling kids face to face and let others step in.
17:06
So I wrote a therapeutic article just for myself.It’s called the Grief of Kids ministry and I put it out there and I remember a lady from the US, she contacted me and she said I’ve just come across your article and she said it now helps me to make sense of the feelings why I don’t like my ministry anymore because she just loved discipling children.
17:27
But she now the ministry has grown and she needs to equip and recruit and equip a multitude of disciple makers and she is removed from face to face ministry with children.That clarity of ministry is a big block.And I think that that’s using the word grief is actually really important there because we we talk about it a little bit at Reach as well.
17:47
That the idea that as you develop a leadership pipeline, as you step away and you now watch all these other people do the thing that you really love doing.And you don’t get to do it to say, I’ve got to grieve that, but I’ve also got to learn to the joy of seeing them.
18:03
Yeah.Your joy is now in them.Your joy, Your joy shifts.OK.So that’s a clarity of ministry role.What else have we got for for kids in your list?An emotional block.And that’s where that moves on from that clarity, sure that that grief, you know that you, you, you don’t want to give up what you’re doing, what you love to do.
18:25
And so you then step out of your comfort zone.And so you’ve actually got to work.You’ve got to ask yourself, am I the right person to lead this ministry?Is it something that I can learn to do?Or do I just not have the right gift mix?And that is that’s a bit of an emotional block.
18:40
Then there’s the fear block, you know, not sure how to actually do it and, or what my next step is.And if somebody is not journeying you through that, that that can be a block that stops you from moving forward and you become paralysed because you’re literally not sure how to do it because of the time pressure block, which is the next one.
19:04
Because Sunday’s always coming and you never have time to get off the preparation for Sunday treadmill.And you don’t have time to raise and equip teams and think in terms of changing structure, decentralising things from you, thinking strategically on the ministry because you’re just on this seven day.
19:23
Cycle.But yeah, we, we, it’s just coming.It’s just this terrible seven day cycle of a treadmill.It just keeps going and going and going, yeah, get through Sunday and then I’ve just got another one coming and it’s just like this.Yeah.Wave after wave, yeah.Yeah.And then and then like we’ve we’ve spoken about earlier the being undervalued and so your ministry is not publicly valued.
19:44
Nobody from senior staff ever meets with you one on one.I remember, but years ago down in Melbourne, I think it was with Reach again, I had pastors and the kids ministry directors in the room.
20:00
Most of them were volunteer and unpaid and I, I and I got them in pairs, sitting in pairs.The pastor and the the the the kids ministry leader.And I got them to talk with one another about so nobody was meeting one on one with each other.
20:21
And I got the pastor to say why he wasn’t meeting one on one with the the director.And I got the director then or the kids ministry leader to then say what that felt like.And the pastor, they were going, the reason why I haven’t met with you is because I so trust you and you are so skilled in this area and I have no idea what I have no experience in kids ministry.
20:42
And my not meeting with you is to show you that I trust you.And the kids ministry leaders all said back to the pastors, you don’t value what I’m doing.You don’t care.You’re I feel abandoned, not being developed.And that began a very good, good conversation.
20:58
So what the pastor is thinking, I’m actually showing that I trust you.And for them, they’re feeling abandoned.That sounds like a conversation that should happen between senior pastors and kids directors, like, all the time.So not just at a conference that you’re running.
21:15
So, yeah, yeah.And I think that, I mean, the last one is, is, is that expectation that the person who is leading the kids ministry writes the curriculum?That’s a growing expectation, particularly across Australia.And it’s it, it is one of the because the hours that it takes to write a lesson page specific.
21:36
So I write when I’m not travelling and training.I now write six days a week and I’ve been writing a curriculum for children’s ministry for 35 years.It still takes me two full days of writing and then workings with the graphics person to write a lesson from beginning to end, thinking in the passage, exegeting and working out the big idea, discussing that with my husband, what the big idea is, and then packaging something together that is age appropriate for 5 to 11 year olds.
22:08
It takes me two full days.That’s 16 hours.And so you, if you volunteer and you only work three days a week, how can you actually write quality material for your people and then raise up teams and equip teams and do all the admin and the resource like it’s?
22:26
It’s a.Lot of work it’s.About now, we were talking actually before we were recording that you said that people who not everyone can write curriculum like it’s like it’s a different.It’s a different gifts it different.Gifts it and so some people might be able to do it.They might do it really, really well and they might do it particularly well for their their ministry, but not everyone can.
22:46
I just want to just take that off people’s shoulders to go, just because you’re in kids ministry doesn’t mean you have to write curriculum.Because I think some people may be feeling the pressure that.Yeah, I mean, we do need to, we do need to have the skill to critique curriculum.So you do need to know how to, you know, look at a passage and work out what is the truth being taught in that passage and how to actually then stand over your, the material that you’ve been given and stand under the word of God.
23:13
And you need to equip your volunteers to do that.You also need to equip your parents to, to discern what is quality material to actually use in the family home to, to disciple their children.So you do need to be skilled in, in, in working out how to actually understand truth, package truth for children.
23:38
It’s just that you just don’t have to do it all the time.Sure.Yeah.OK, let me just quickly summarise that list.You’ve got the the clarity block.These are the contributors to burnout.A block of clarity of role, an emotional block, a fear block, time pressure block, undervalued block, expectation block.
23:55
Again, I’m already feeling burnt out.I’m just going through the list, OK?What sort of things can we do to put in place to prevent burnout?Well, look, if you’re, it doesn’t have to be the senior pastor, but someone in senior leadership meeting one on one with the person overseeing the kids ministry, they’re usually discipling between 15 and 30% of the church.
24:16
If you if, if you’re a suburban church, that’s usually the, the range, the number of people that they’re discipling within their under their under their ministry.And so one on one developing them as leaders of leaders.
24:33
And I think the other thing is pastoral staff often have professional supervision, but it is not a made available for part time its ministry leaders.Now pastoral supervision is preventative.That’s what it is.And we know that if we have somebody who is journeying with us, helping us to guide our walk with Jesus, helping us to navigate when there’s conflict, helping us to, to lead people well, Jesus, that is really, really important.
25:07
So trying to work out if, if there’s not the budget to do professional supervision or the person overseeing the, the, the kids ministry, then making sure that that’s done within the staff team.I think another thing is in you value their ministry when you invite them in, when there are decisions that directly affect them.
25:29
I remember years ago, the staff team was in the front room and I was in the backroom with the, the pastor’s wives.I was overseeing the kids ministry, but I wasn’t on staff.And every now and again a door would open and they, my husband would come out and said, well, you know, we’ve made this decision, you know, do you think you could raise your teams and get this done?
25:50
And I said, you’ve probably given me two days worth of work.And I said, I don’t think I could do it within the time frame.So, so often decisions are made and and there’s an expectation that the person overseeing the kids ministry will just make more time to do it.
26:06
But helping them in the room, having them in the room for the discussion is a really, it values their time, it values their ministry.And they can say, yes, it can be done or no, I can’t do it within that time frame or I will need some help getting this done.And so it helps having them met, be part of the discussion when it really does impact them and their ministry teams and.
26:33
Especially as you were saying before, if pastors are saying I don’t really understand kids ministry, so I trust you with it.If they don’t understand kids ministry, they need someone in the room who does understand kids ministry in order to make the decisions.Yeah.So yeah.Yeah, Talk a little bit about master class, how does that help the kids?
26:52
Kids wise master class How does that help with?Well, kids, wise master class class really came out of a concern for the growing number of cases that I was seeing.And so master class really is preventative.It’s basically helping a person to shift from doing the ministry to being a leader who multiplies ministry and there’s ten classes over 10 months and you journey with a small group of people in the class.
27:21
It’s all done over zoom and and it helps you step by step learn what it looks like to be a leader of leaders and to multiply and to work out when you need to centralised things and decentralised things so that you flourish in your role and your ministry grows not just in reach, but in depth as well.
27:43
And so you’re so that’s the the aim of master class is to help you to shift to be a leader of leaders at Multiplies Ministry.Yeah, sure.I know we’ve talked a bit about preventing dirt burnout and what it would look like.Can you come back from it?
28:00
I I know that’s not what we are aiming for, but can you come back from burnout?Yes, well, I’ve come back from burnout and I know people who have come back from burnout.I think one of the things is when you have burnt out it, you just need complete rest.
28:18
So three to six months completely off is what you’re looking at.But the best thing is to journey with somebody who knows how to journey well with someone with burnout.So there’s one go to person that I refer everyone across the world to and that’s Lynette Kane from Slower, Deeper Wiser.
28:36
And she has journeyed with people from across the world and and she’s just, she very helpfully understands burnout, the process and how to actually help people regain their joy and particularly their joy in Jesus.
28:52
That’s the most important thing.That’s the worst thing about burnout is people lose.They walk away not just from their ministry, not just from the church.They walk away from Jesus.And losing that joy in Jesus is just such a a sad thing.
29:07
It’s very sad.Yeah, very sad.My son.I’m getting all teary.Yes, I hate.It Well, Sandy, OK, before we go too far, let’s get too emotional here.Let’s let’s get to the one thing.What’s the one thing you want churches to know about burnout and kids ministry?Look, if you are, I’ll say 2, but one for each person.
29:25
Sure.If you are the person who is overseeing the kids ministry in your church, resist the urge to do the ministry.Learn how to be a ministry multiplier.That’s key.If you are leading a church, you’re a pastor, and you’re overseeing, then meet with a person who overseas the kids ministry regularly and help them grow to be ministry multipliers, not ministry doers.
29:49
That’s great, right?One things even though there’s 20.That’s great.There you go All right, in the toolbox.We the toolbox again, bursting at the seams.We do have that Gospel Coalition article that Sandy mentioned about the surprising grief of kids ministry.We’ve got a couple of older one thing episodes.
30:06
We’re actually hosted by your daughter Maddie.So it’s the Galea family kind of thing.And so there’s a number thing that just about burnout.Again, we’ve got some things there from kids wise.We mentioned those in the last episode.So if you’re not sure what they are, go back to the last episode.
30:22
Sandy will explain some of those things there.And of course, we’ve got a link to slower, deeper wiser.Is there anything else you wanted to add about slower deeper wiser that we may have missed to there?Well.It’s it’s Lynette Kane.She does professional supervision.Yep.
30:38
But I so she, she, she does that broadly for me.She is my go to person if I find somebody with burnout.Excellent, Sandy, thank you so much for joining us.Love your your great passion for kids ministry for all the things that you produced on behalf of everybody else in Kids Wise, thank you very much and thanks for joining us here today.
30:59
Thank you for having me.Now, once again, if you’ve got a topic you’d like us to cover, you want to send us an email Resources at reachaustralia.com dot AU.I’m Pete Hughes.Chat soon.
