Perceptions shape a ministry’s effectiveness. For kids ministry, we’re exploring Bible-based views to reinforce it and tackling harmful misconceptions.
- What are some of the ministry pressures that kids ministry faces?
- How pressures effect the perception and effectiveness of kids ministry
- How it should be seen through a biblical lens
- Decisions that leaders can make that will help or sabotage the perception of kids ministry
Sandy Galea is the direction of Kidswise, a ministry that seeks to support local churches in the discipleship of kids.
TOOLBOX:
Growing an Effective Kids Ministry (Seminar)
Missional Kids Ministry (Interview)
Kidswise Equip (live online training) For: parents, volunteers, kids ministry directors
Kidswise Academy (individual or group training options) For: parents, volunteers, kids ministry directors, ministry team leaders
Kidswise Masterclass (10 classes over 10 months) how to lead a kids ministry that grows in depth and reach without burning out .
Kidswise Consult For: individual or staff team – kids ministry directors, staff teams.
CREDITS:
This episode was brought to you by Kidswise Academy
The One Thing is brought to you by Reach Australia
To pray for Reach Australia, join our WhatsApp Group.
For ideas or questions please email [email protected]
To support the Reach Australia Online Library head here.
TRANSCRIPT:
The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
0:08
G’day Alan.Pete Hughes.Welcome to The One Thing.It’s a podcast designed to give you one solid practical tip for gospel centred ministry every week.The one thing that’s brought to you by Reach Australia, and a lot of people forget that, is actually brought to you by Reach Australia because I don’t know why.The Reach Australia is a great organisation.
0:25
Make sure you jump on the website, have a look at what we do, particularly have a look at our upcoming national conference.It’s going to be a great thing.But Jesus reminds us kids are important part of the church.And today we have Sandy Galia with us.Welcome, Sandy.Thank you very much for having me, Pete.
0:41
Same to be here.Yeah, Sandy’s been are part of the Reach Australia family for a while and we’re going to be digging into some of the things of Kids Wise, the ministry with Kids Wise in a moment.But now you and Ray, your husband, have been living in a city, Sydney, for a long time.
0:58
But now you’ve you’ve moved to Dubai.It’s been a couple of years now.Yeah.Three years in Dubai, OK, Yeah.What do you miss about Sydney?Well, obviously people, it’s the people that you miss.So our leaving our church, my ministry, I, I with MBM kids, but it’s family, friends and particularly, you know, we’re at that stage where we’re grandparents.
1:19
So, you know, missing our grandchildren is absolutely huge.And it’s just the joy of actually being with them.We’ve been, I’ve been with them this week, which has been lovely.And I always remember Al Stewart’s quote, which I, I think captures it, you know, the, it’s, if I knew how good it was to be a grandparent, I would have skipped being a parent and gone straight to being a grandparent because grandparents get all of the, the fun bits.
1:42
We get the fun bits with our, with our grandchildren.But there is A and leaving Australia and the grief is family and friends, but always that Jesus is worth it.Yeah, I mean, there is the technology that’s just not the same as giving them a hug and basically filling them up with lollies and giving them back to their parents, which I think is what my parents have done anyway.
2:06
But for now, you pressed play on another episode of The One Thing we’re Talking Today about shaping the perception of kids ministry.Today’s podcast is brought to you by Kids Wise Academy.The Kids Wise Academy is an online platform that seeks to equip people in discipline.
2:22
Kids The Academy Is a flexible platform that offers courses for both parents and volunteers.Why not explore the growing number of courses in the Kids Wise Academy Today?Head to the website kidswise.com dot AU.And now back to the podcast.Sandy, let’s let’s get it.
2:40
What exactly is Kids Ministry?It’s a, it’s a very, very good question.I often ask people in seminars to write down their answer to that.I remember years ago actually at a Reach Australia conference in Melbourne and there was a group of church planters there and it was about, it was a seminar on kids ministry and one of the church planters there, the church had been going for six months.
3:03
He asked me when do we begin kids ministry in our church?And I asked him, I said, do you have children in your church?And he said yes.And I said, well, you’ve actually already begun children’s ministry.So if you have children in your church, then the question is, have you actually thought intentionally about these little ones?
3:24
And I think what happens is most people think of kids ministry, which I think is what he had in his mind as that time in the week where we separate children from their parents.We call it Sunday school or kids church and, but essentially that’s the perception.
3:40
Children’s ministry is when parents hand over their children to a group of volunteers to teach them the word and to love them and, and to care for them and give them back in one piece.But thinking intentionally about children’s ministry is much broader than that time of the week.
3:56
So we’ve got our, our daily disciple makers, which are our parents, our weekly disciple makers, which are our leaders, our yearly ones, which are our sort of our holiday teams.And then we’ve even got our intergenerational disciple makers, which is the whole body of, of the, of the church intentionally discipling the children entrusted to them.
4:16
So it really is thinking in terms of a transformational ministry that many, many people are involved in, in discipling these little ones.Yeah.And I, I just to jump into a completely different thing for a moment that that intergenerational thing is such an important part of the church, especially there are, there are single people in our churches who are going, I don’t have kids, what do I do?
4:37
But they have such an important role as aunties and uncles that are able to speak into kids lives in a way that parents may not be, especially when they get into that difficult preteen teenager kind of area.And children and children are watching the body of Christ at work.
4:52
And so every person within within the local church is playing a part in discipling these little ones.What we need to do as as as a community of believers is to think intentionally about this beautiful gift that we’ve been given these children who we’re have been entrusted to us as a church family to disciple well for Jesus.
5:14
So it sounds like in that conversation that you had with that planter in Melbourne that he had a a bit of a misunderstanding of what kids ministry is actually meant to be.What sort of perceptions have people got about kids ministry?Yeah.Well, apart from the fact that, you know, people think of a limited time in the week they reduce it, I think most people think in terms of kids ministry as something that is future focus.
5:39
You know, we give children a little bit of Bible knowledge so that when they grow up they can own their own faith and become active members of the church family.So it’s often we do this now, but we’re not expecting anything now.We’re expecting something to happen in the future, which then sort of makes what we do when we’re opening the word of God, whether it be in the family home or the church family home, whether what we’re doing is just information transfer.
6:07
You know, we, we’re giving them a little bit of Bible knowledge, but we’re not expecting children to respond to that truth in repentance and faith and trust, but we’re preparing them for a future where they will.And so, you know, so I mean, at the worst case, people’s perception of kids ministry is a little more than, you know, good quality babysitting.
6:31
And the aim of children’s ministry, that time of the week where we separate kids is really a means to an end.We’re doing that so that the adults won’t be distracted and we just keep the kids occupied, give them a, a little bit of Bible knowledge.I, I, but it’s not a here and now discipleship, philosophy of ministry.
6:51
It’s very much future.It’s really underestimating the power of the spirit at that point, isn’t it like you go, Oh well, no, no, he only works with people up to a certain a, you know, up to a certain age, but below that age, that’s not really on his radar.And in in many ways, that’s what Jesus was rebuking with the disciples when the the the kids were coming to, to Jesus.
7:10
And they go, no, no, no, there’s an age limit here.And it’s just, yeah, it’s all right.I actually remember that.One of my favourite quotes from the evangelist DL Moody is that he he talks about how he went to an event.There were we came home and his wife said, how’d you go?
7:26
And he said 2 1/2 converts and she’s gone.Oh, I get it.How old was the kid?And he goes, no, no, two kids, one adult, she went, how does that work?And she said, oh, because the kids have their whole lives ahead of them to serve Jesus.The adult’s life, it’s already half over.
7:41
So it was a 2 1/2 thing.I thought that was such a great way of thinking about kids ministry.It’s not just about the future.It’s something else, but whatever.But there are, I mean, kids ministry does have some unique pressures.I mean, what are what are some of those subtle pressures that for people who are leading in a kids ministry, what are some of the pressures that they have in their their ministry?
8:01
So, so when I look back at the 30 years where I was the kids ministry director at MB MI, remember really the 1st 15 years I had parents coming to me.These are new parents.They’ve just checking out our church and they would come to collect their children on the first or second week and they would ask this question.
8:24
It was a the predominant question for the 1st 15 years.Was my child good?In other words, did my child, was my child’s behaviour?Did it reflect well on me?But the last 15 years, the most common question parents asked was, was my child happy?
8:42
And so happiness has become the idolatry, the idol of this current generation.And I think the pressure that comes in on people leading kids ministry is that parents want their kids to be happy, they want their kids to have friends, they want their kids to feel connected.
9:03
And that’s.That’s a big one, isn’t it?I want to make sure that my kids are connected and I’ve heard all sorts of different things where people have said, can we rearrange this class so that my kid is in with another class, another person, because they connect better.That’s a huge thing, isn’t it?Yes, there are a lot and, and you know, people, parents in particular, ask things of kids ministry leaders.
9:25
They would never ask at school.You never go to a school principal and say, you know, could my 5 year old be in the same class as my 7 year old?But they do at kids church.So there’s, there’s the pressure to accommodate, There’s a pressure to, to, to keep children happy because that’s and you know, and, and really we want families to connect with us.
9:48
So there’s a lot of pressure to get Sunday right.And I think that’s that’s the pressure and how you and all the different voices in what does it mean to get Sunday right?The Sunday gathering.And I think that is a huge pressure.And I think because Sunday is such a big pressure for the person leading the kids ministry that the primary disciple makers then go into the periphery vision of them.
10:11
And you know, the person, the people who are going to have the biggest impact in terms of, you know, a child’s faith development are their parents.And and So what happens is the pressure to get Sunday right.We focus in on our Sunday disciple makers and we actually ignore the parents at the detriment of the children because the parents are gonna have the biggest impact on on their child, not the Sunday disciple makers.
10:37
So it’s yeah.So all of those pressures come.Yeah, that’s that’s really flipping around the priorities.Yes, it does flip the priorities.Yeah, to get that just that one little bit right where there is so much more that you know, and we could we could dig into the parents thing.We may do that a little bit later on of you know, how much are they sort of outsourcing discipleship to that Sunday kind of thing.
10:57
But yeah, yeah.But what, what what’s the perception that you want people to have of kids ministry?Because that that can be, it can be seen put it bluntly, as, oh, well, that’s the babysitting kind of thing on Sunday so that the parents can actually hear the Bible.
11:14
And so we’ll just keep them entertained, keep them happy.And but what’s the perception you’d what would you like people to think of when they think of kids ministry?I always think when you’re thinking of, you know, any ministry within a church, begin with a Great Commission.So just begin with a Great Commission.
11:31
And when you actually read those verses, Jesus doesn’t put an age restriction on it.He doesn’t say go and make disciples of people over the age of 11.Like he just says go and make disciples.So kids ministry is a disciple making ministry.And so with that comes expectation.
11:49
And so as we preach the gospel age appropriate to these little ones, we actually have an expectation to see the gospel take root in the lives of children.But God’s word to do its work for the Spirit to radically change the hearts of kids.So we want a gospel shaped ministry that is that is all about making young disciples.
12:11
So the kids, they know Jesus, they love Jesus, they want to live for Jesus, they want to tell their friends about Jesus because Jesus changes everything for the adult and for the child.I remember a mistake that that I made when I was working in a church and we had one of our kids ministry people said we’re going to do a particular outreach.
12:30
So the kids are going to invite their their friends along to their kids ministry.And it was quite successful.What we forgot was that when kids come, they bring their parents.And all of a sudden we had this big influx of new parents who are interested in church.And we kind of go, oh, we really didn’t think this through in terms of welcoming them in.
12:49
But it was such an effective thing because the kids went, yeah, I want my friends to know about Jesus.And I think we were in the back of our heads.Maybe I was thinking it wasn’t really real discipleship.I think that was the thing I needed to repent of at that point of time.So yeah, it is a, it’s a it’s important that we get that perception right, isn’t it?
13:08
That’s right.And we think holistically because children never come in a vacuum.They come in a family.Yep.And so, so we need to think children, family, Yep, church family.And, and, and we always need to keep pushing those circles out and think holistically about discipling children.
13:28
Yeah, there may be a staff team or a senior minister or even kids minister listening to this at the moment, thinking actually I do need to shape the way people are perceiving ministry, the kids ministry at the moment.I, I think it’s probably not on track.How do you actually shape that perception in a church?
13:47
And where do you where do you shape it?Good question.I think, I mean, it’s subtle, isn’t it?When you’re when you’re thinking about shaping perception, you know, it’s the stories that are told, what’s celebrated as a church family, what’s said, what’s not said, how decisions are made, you know, what’s visible.
14:05
All of those things shape perception.So I think, you know, one of the things is, you know, what stories are being shared about your ministry to children.You know, are there stories celebrating different things that God is doing the lives of children?
14:21
You know, a child prayed their first prayer in a small group.Is that being celebrated?You know, the questions that children are asking a child who said yes to Jesus, Are we celebrating that as a church family?You know, are we we telling stories about kids stepping up into serving roles in kids church or serving in the wider body?
14:42
Are kids sharing Jesus with their friends stories about parents and and how they’re intentionally discipling their children at home as they discuss what the.You know, family, family discussing on the way home from church what mum and dad have learnt and what kids have learnt.
15:03
So the stories that we share then shape our perception.If we only tell stories about kids having fun, then the perception is it’s it’s about a a healthy babysitting club.So where do you, where do you want to see those stories told?
15:20
Are they are they told in the the leaders meeting afterwards?Is it in the staff team?Is it in church?Where do you want to see those?Well, if you want to shape perception, you shape perception within your volunteer team, you know, with your parents.So you’re whenever you’re doing training, whenever you’re sending out.
15:39
So I used to sell out, send out celebration emails and it there wouldn’t be anything else except stories in these emails.It’d be about 3 stories.Send it to parents, send it to volunteers, I’d send it to staff team.My husband used to pick up some of these stories and they made it into his sermons.
15:56
And as a way of celebrating, you know, I remember there was, I was coaching a volunteer and he was a bit distracted getting some stuff.And there was a New Girl in, in this small group and she picked up one of the Bibles and she just read it Holy Bible.
16:13
And then she said that’s holy.Now these six and seven year old kids had done Leviticus not that long before.And and so a 7 year old boy said, I think holy means special.And another 6 year old kid, she was a girl.
16:29
And she said, I think holy means separate from sin.God is holy and he’s separate from sin.And I was just sitting there going, there was not an adult involved in this conversation.Here were children helping other children unpack a quite complex word and doing it so beautifully because of what they’ve actually been taught at kids church.
16:51
And so Ray picked that up and talk and use that story in his sermon and, and celebrated it.And, and it just helps people to go, wow, children are actually discussing huge things, the huge concepts, and they’re helping each other to get to know God.
17:13
And so I think, you know, like my husband would also do things like he would, somebody else would be preaching and he would spend one Sunday regularly in kids church and he would have question of the week, kids asking questions.
17:29
And so the kids would just write down a whole stack of questions.And, and he would then be given these questions and he’d sit for 20 minutes with these five to seven year olds or 8 to 11 year olds.And they would just be glued listening to him answer these questions.
17:44
And then what we would do was we would then gather up some of these questions with the answers and then feed them back to the whole church and kid.And the kids were asking like very complex questions.Like I remember one boy, he said, we’re doing, we just done Judas.
17:59
And he said, he asked Ray, he said, did Satan know that when he entered Judas to betray Jesus, that Satan would cause his own doom?And so you’re sort of going, wow, like, you know, did Satan not, no one was caught in his trap?
18:15
Or did he know when he just couldn’t help himself?Like that’s the that’s the truth.And you see, they’re going, this is a, this is an 8 year old boy trying to work that out.And So what it does is it helps those stories as they get disseminated to the parents, to the volunteers and to the wider church family, it shapes the perception of kids ministry.
18:37
Yeah, Profoundly.Very profoundly.Yeah, that’s really helpful.Just to see a number of different ways where you see though that the celebrations taking place.The email thing is a great idea.You know, emails with the, I think particularly with the team Ray picking that up, I, I think that’s a great thing for preachers to pick up those stories again.
18:58
It just shows, I think it illustrates so well the power of the gospel to transform lives and people just need to keep hearing that again and again and again.So.Yeah, it’s not, it’s not just a once off thing.It’s.Yeah.But can I also say that, you know, perceptions are also shaped simply because of the decisions that are made.
19:15
Yeah.So people in leadership like, you know, I remember hearing a story, this was from the UK, there was the kids ministry director.She was a little bit tired.And so he, the pastor said, right, OK, I’m going to send you off for six months.
19:30
I want, you know, two months of rest, two months where she did a short course and two months where she observed kids ministry in different parts of the world while she was away.He said because she was going, I can’t be away for six months.And he said no, no, no.And he asked 4 leaders who were small group leaders, adults, small group leaders, to step in and to make sure that kids ministry on Sunday and midweek ran really well.
19:55
When she came back, the kids ministry, the Sunday kids ministry was running very well.And two of the leaders so loved it that they never went back to adult ministry.Now that church was a university church, a university church that had grown.
20:13
Because people had not left the university church, but stayed with the university church, got married, had children and now they had a kids and family ministry.And so I thought that pastor really understood that he is responsible for discipling not just the adults, not just the teenagers, but he is pastorally oversighting the discipling of the the children.
20:36
And he took that seriously.So it was a beautiful story.I love it.I.Just want to pause there ’cause I think that’s actually a really important thing, just in that moment that senior pastors are responsible for the discipling of everyone who is in their church.And again, there can be a sense where they go.
20:52
I’ve got a kids minister, I’ll just outsource that.I’ll let them do the thing.I I and just not pay attention to what’s going on.But this one, obviously he, he actually spent some time going.You’re not looking like you’re in a good place.Take some time off.He got his hands dirty in in arranging for more leaders to come in.
21:09
I think it’s a great thing just to remind people that if you’re a senior pastor, if you’re a senior leader, you are responsible for growing and making disciples, no matter what their age.That’s a really key thing.How, how, how can we?We talked a little bit about perception, but are there ways that perception can be sabotaged?
21:27
Yeah, like, like that decision by that pastor in the UK was very positive and affirming for kids, for the kids ministry director and the ministry in a whole as a whole.But I think there’s sometimes where the senior pastor can make decisions, but like they’re, they’re verbally saying, yes, I’m for kids ministry, you know, I, I’m backing this kids ministry.
21:49
But I did hear of a an example where a pastor said, yes, yes, I’m really pro kids ministry.But then it came up to an anniversary dinner, a very special occasion in the life of this church.And the Sunday kids ministry teamed used the hall and so all the women wanted to set up for the this special luncheon and they wanted to make it look nice.
22:14
So they went to the pastor and they said, can can we set up during church?Which meant that kids church couldn’t operate.And so the pastor said to the kids ministry team, can you just go outside and kick a ball around?And in one decision, he is like completely undercutting the value of that ministry because you like, if the reverse happened, you would never think, oh, we’re using that space.
22:40
Can the adults not gather around the word and this particular Sunday?And instead of actually gathering around the word and hearing the word being preached and praising God together and praying together, can the adults just have a cup of tea that Sunday?Like we would never think the reverse, yeah.
22:57
OK, I might be a bit harsh on this, but what that sounds like to me is that he’s saying, and I’m sorry if you’re the person that Sandy’s talking about, I don’t know you, that he’s saying yes to adults socialising, no to kids being discipled.
23:13
Yeah, because when you say yes to something, you’re saying no to something else.That’s exactly what he’s done.So.Those decisions are critical.Yeah, yeah.Again, I want to say if you’re on a staff team, you’re a leader.Stop and think about what you’re saying yes to and what that says no to, especially when it comes to the discipleship.
23:30
And that’s the getting your getting your focus clear is such an important thing.And look, it’s not just the, the senior pastor, the person who’s overseeing the kids ministry.If they’re just telling stories about kids having fun, if all they’re doing is showing photos of kids running around having great time, but they never show photos of kids sitting in small groups with Bibles open, kids praying, then that what they’re, what they’re making visible is, is, is shaping the perception.
23:57
And so I think it’s very critical that you think in terms of how you, if you’re overseeing the, the ministry, how you, what you’re saying, what you’re doing, what you’re showing, what you’re telling is shaping that perception.
24:13
Yeah, very, very critical.How?How much kids ministry does take a lot of resources in terms of, you know, sometimes you’ll you need to have a certain number of leaders that you may have more leaders there than say small groups or something like that.So there it is a resource intensive thing.
24:31
How important is the decision to actually continue to resource that ministry in the church to show that it’s an important priority?It’s, I mean, it’s, it’s absolutely critical.You’re thinking in terms of there’s a lot of things in the the resource research package.You know, there’s the budget recent, there is the space, there is the storage, there is the equipment, there is the the administrative resource or I think of.
24:57
The storage.But you’re right.I mean, it’s just all that stuff that I mean, the toys and all the bits and pieces.But they are important things to actually help kids interact.Yeah.Kids ministry has the most amount of floor space needed.They use the most amount of rooms.They use the most amount.They need the most amount of cupboards.They have the most amount of equipment and they need the the biggest resource is they have the most amount of volunteers.
25:18
And if you’re thinking just of Sunday minister discipling, they usually have the largest amount of volunteers compared to youth small groups and adult small groups.So, and it’s usually you combine youth and adults that number and you’ve got the number of small groups and kids.
25:37
That’s usually what happens.But then you’ve got the biggest group of small groups leaders, which are your parents.So if a kids ministry director is thinking holistically, they’re thinking about the family small group and the parents as the leader of that small group.And they’re thinking about their Sunday small group leaders.
25:55
They’ve got a huge number of small group leaders to encourage, equip and resource.Like it’s huge.Yeah.And, and you know, the sad thing is that I’ve heard are stories where, you know, somebody from the church family is been asked to pray for all the small groups in church and they pray for all the adults, the the men’s, the women’s, the mix, the youth.
26:18
And they never pray for the kids, not within the family home and not within the church family.And and you do that enough times that.That will it will certainly affect the the perception of the ministry and that will actually affect the performance of the ministry as well.So very sad, yeah.
26:35
And what’s the one thing that you would love us to know about the perception of kids ministry?Look, I think just be gospel optimistic, God’s calling a paper for himself and the most likely people to say yes to Jesus around the age of 18.
26:51
So think Great Commission when you think of kids ministry, making of disciples who are then we’re making disciples within our active members of our church family and they’re active members of our church family right now.
27:07
That’s right.OK.We have an absolutely packed toolbox that you can see here.There’s a couple of seminars I’ve put there from Sandy that she’s done for Reach Australia.But Sandy, I’m going to get you to talk through some of these things from kid, his wise kids, wise equip.Tell us about that.
27:23
So that’s some live online training.We do that about six times a year and you join with people from across the world.We look at different topics.There’s topics for parents, volunteers and kids ministry directors.We have guest speakers.There’s a whole bunch of different.Things that are there, OK, And it’s an hour and a half online.
27:40
You can be in your pyjamas and just TuneIn.OK, so have a look at that Kids Wise Academy.Who’s that for and what’s that about?Again, it’s for all of those different types of people, except there’s also ministry team leaders.So there’s teams training, which is broader than children’s ministry.
27:57
So there’s teams training is what they and the aim is you can actually do a course as an individual or you can gather a group of people in your church and, and do a course together.And there’s different types of courses.The great thing about some of the Academy courses is that you can actually get your parent disciple makers and your weekly disciple makers together in the one room.
28:19
So asking kids question, kids questions kids ask is one that is one that can be done with parents and volunteers.OK.But you’ve also got the master class as well there, so that’s another step up from everything there.Is that right?So that is pitched purely for the person who is overseeing the kids ministry in the local church.
28:38
And it can be whether you’re paid, unpaid, volunteer or full time.It’s it’s for the person who is responsible for leading the ministry.And the aim is to help that person to grow the ministry in depth and reach without burning out.
28:55
It actually came as that master class came as a concern by me watching the sheer number of people burning out in kids ministry that came in response to that.And you do consults as well, there’s.A Yes, I do consults so individual or staff or I come and I can do a consult for a church.
29:13
So I can come and visit your church and and do a deep dive into your kids ministry and spend time with you and your senior leaders and then give you a report with some next steps that you could move your ministry forward.Excellent.
29:28
And if you’re in the Reach Australia Network, you will have known how great consults can be.We’ve we’ve done consults as a whole church to come in and have someone focus particularly on your kids ministry.It would be really, really great.So make sure you get in contact with Sandy for Sandy.Thank you so much for joining.Us.That’s a pleasure.
29:43
Thank you so much for having us, having me, us, me.If you’ve got some feedback, a topic you’d like us to look at or anything, just send us an email.In fact, just send us an email anyway.I love getting the emails.Thank you.For those who’ve been sending emails, resources at reachaustralia.com dot AU, I’m Pete Hughes.
30:02
Chat soon.
