Gary Millar dives into holding tension in the Christian life, embracing differences, and leaning into Christlike living. It’s about being missionally effective and reflecting Jesus in our character. It’s challenging, yes, but necessary—because calling each other to godliness is the truest form of leadership.
Gary’s new book Both And And is out now — a book that’s part wake-up call, part guide for Christian leaders to walk the talk. Your personality? Important. But it doesn’t exempt you from living under God’s rules. Leadership? It’s about godliness first, not charisma or loopholes.
Tool Box
Both And Ministry By Gary Millar
Credits
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Transcript
The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service.
0:02
Lifeway Leadership Podcast Network.
0:16
G’day, I’m Scott Sanders. Welcome to The One Thing, a podcast designed to give you one solid, practical tip for gospel-centred ministry every week. The One Thing is brought to you by Reach Australia. We want to see thousands of healthy evangelistic multiplying churches all across Australia, and today we’re joined by Gary Miller.
0:32
Gary Miller is the principal of the Queensland Theological College in Brisbane, Australia. He teaches Old Testament, particularly biblical theology, and also no doubt talks lots about preaching, but also does a lot of preaching at the college and around the place as well.
0:49
And before all of that, he was a pastor for about 17 years in both Ireland and Northern Ireland. He’s married to Fiona and he has three children. Gary Miller, welcome to The One Thing!
Thank you, Scott, It’s great to be with you.
Now, I don’t know if this is this the first time you’ve been on the One Thing. I feel like, I feel like we’ve obviously put you on the Reach Australia podcast and shared some of your talks and other things, but is this the first time you’ve been on the One Thing? It is, there you go. Well, exciting. Exactly like your servant departing piece.
1:22
Now, I mean, you’ve just recently had cataract surgery.
Yeah.
And, and, and I, I, my dad’s just had it as well. And he he kind of talked about…’no, no’, I used to say, ‘you’re-you’re far too young to have it.’ You’re right. Oh, yeah, yeah, that’s right.
1:37
You are.No, no, I was born.I was born just injured the inside of of blindness and preaching.And you know, just Jesus has heaps of parables and healings where he where he does heal the blind person.And I know, I know you’re not fully blind with cataracts, but but you’re partial, you know, partially impairs your your vision a fair bit.
1:54
But my, my dad, I talked to my dad the other he’s like, oh, it’s amazing.I can see, I can see again, but.I, I, I knew I was gonna have to have this and have it early cause of an old football injury.Yep, I’ve had a shockwave, it’s called a shockwave cataract for 30 years.
2:11
So I realised I’ve been looking through like a cloud for most of my adult life and the weird thing for me is colours look different.Yep, like I actually went to get get the bag I normally use when I’m travelling and I, I picked up this bag and went, no, that’s a blue purple colour, that’s not my bag and and put it down and spent 5 minutes looking through for all the other bags.
2:35
And I went back I went, oh, like I was pretty sure it was like flat Navy, but apparently not.So every everything is more vivid.Yeah, I, I, I just have that image of, you know, Jesus healing the blind man.He sees stuff and and then he and then just a radical transformation and and change.
2:54
Well, for now, you’ve pressed by another episode of the One Thing We’re not going to be talking about cataract surgery today, but we’re going to be talking about both and Ministry, a new book by Gary Miller.Today’s podcast is brought to you by the Ministry Training Strategy.MTS is a network of gospel workers who share the vision of winning the world for Christ by multiplying gospel workers through ministry apprenticeships.
3:17
To find out more, especially on how to start an apprenticeship at mts.com dot AU.And now back to the podcast.So, Gary, I’m I’m keen to hear why, Why write another book?It seems like you’ve read lots of books recently.
3:33
Why write another book?What’s?Really, because I over the last few years I have been grappling as somebody spent, you know, spend spend my days trying to equip people from industry, set them up for the long term, for the long haul.
3:51
I was just trying to work out like why, why people kind of crash and burn in ministry, you know, and and you know, we have had without just a steady procession of high profile ministry failures.But also, you know, just, I mean, we see it as we kind of move around Australia, people stepping out of ministry, making a mess of churches, church teams sometimes exploding.
4:19
And I was just thinking and praying like, is there, is there a commonality?What is there anything we should be doing kind of downstream to try to, to, you know, to do everything we possibly can to avoid these things happening in 10/15/20 years.
4:35
And I think what one of the things that struck me as a reflected, especially on some of the high profile guys, you know, whether it was Mars Hill or Ravi Zacharias or whoever.I just one of the things that struck me was that lots of these, especially a high profile guys, they got to the point where it was like normal rules didn’t apply.
4:58
You know, that some of the stuff that happened.And I was asking, how could everybody around them think that it was OK, you know, for Mark Driscoll to treat people the way that he did for, you know, Ravi Zacharias to, to kind of asked for a masses and every place that he went to.
5:15
And I wasn’t, I was thinking about the people organising the trips, you know, what was it that made them go, oh, oh, well, it’s, it’s Ravi Zacharias, of course we’ll do that.And, and I think it was, I think in every case that I could think of it, it was just, oh, they’re really gifted.
5:33
They’re really significant.Therefore normal rules don’t apply.You know, therefore we don’t, we don’t ask them, you know, we don’t ask them to be godly.It’s at person X.And then as I thought about that, you know, I, I just, I just kind of felt that in our, in our world, it’s a little bit in our bloodstream that, and I think as a sinful human beings, we naturally tend to say, I’m really good at this.
6:01
I’m going to go hard at this.I do this, don’t ask me to do that.And honestly, that’s that’s where the book is bought, you know, was born.And I find it a really hard book to write, although it’s it’s not complicated book.
6:17
But I think because in essence, really, you know, what I’m trying to say is as leaders, we actually have to live and be like the Lord Jesus and we can’t give ourselves a free pass on what he calls us to what he equips us to be.
6:35
And I know I, I tend to do that and I think, I think we all do.So that’s where the book came from, Scott.Yeah.So you know, it’s not an argument for either either or or.It’s OK for you and not OK for me.It’s with.We’re called to both be.Yeah, and the more I thought about it, you know, I just kept hearing maybe myself or other people say things, you know, like, oh, you know, I’m an extrovert.
7:02
So, so therefore I will say whatever I feel like and you’ve just got to deal with it.That’s just me.I’m out there or, you know, I’m an introvert, you know, so I need to go away and, you know, sit at home and read a book, you know, read a book.Don’t don’t ask me, you know, don’t ask me to go and care for my next door neighbour.
7:24
And and again, you know, there’s a complexity to these things.But but I think, I think I just, I began to suspect that this kind of either or thinking had slipped into our the way in which we live as Christians and the way in which we do ministry.Yeah, well, let’s let’s let’s head into that chapter because I, I like the title of it.
7:43
You know, you’re a EINTIP, you know, you kind of added.And I was like, wow, that person’s really complicated because it because in some senses.It is.It is actually helpful to be self aware about who you are, but then not be trapped.
7:59
But yes, you know, so which is what I’m hearing you say not be trapped in.Oh, no, I’m an extrovert and I, I always extrovert my thinking.Therefore I’m going to say the wrong thing 50% of the time as opposed to, you know, I need to keep care, care of my tongue and I need to keep care about how I speak about people.I need to watch that.
8:16
Yeah, yeah.Yeah.And I think that’s where, you know, that’s where the Botan thing comes from.Because I think for me, I tend to, I tend to go, OK, you know, I’m an extrovert.Therefore I need to moderate that, you know, which never really works, you know, or, you know, I’m an introvert.
8:37
I need to be more out there.But there’s a sense of which it doesn’t matter.It doesn’t matter who we are, you know, that we all just need to do different.We need to do things that come easily and things that are difficult, you know, so I don’t find it, I don’t find it difficult to share myself with people.
8:56
You know, I’m not, you know, I’m not traumatised by the fact that you raised my cataract surgery.You know, that’s, you know, for some people even about, you know, they would try to hard talking at that level of personal intimacy.OK, but I need to keep doing that.
9:12
But I but I need to do that in a way which is also directed towards thinking about other people and always going.Am I saying too much here?Is this too much for the other person to cope with?You know, is this I’m talking about myself here, which comes easily to me.
9:30
Is that actually helping encouraging to encourage them to live like Jesus, you know, or, or right now?Do I need to shut up and ask them questions?You know, so I need to be both vulnerable and other person centred at the same at the same time.
9:46
And it’s not a it’s not a happy, you know, it’s like, let’s take it in turns or, you know, I’ll water everything down and end up in this kind of blow out middle.It’s no, I need to give myself to you and I need to be prepared to die to myself and shut up and listen to you.
10:06
But in order to have a rich relationship, actually I’ve got to do both of those things.Yep, and you’ve written the book primarily for sort of church staff, lay leaders, students preparing for ministry.It’s each chapter has some helpful reflection questions, but also some helpful reflection questions on, on you as a person that, you know, I think allow themselves to I, you know, open up and be having a conversation with each other and listening and talking to each other.
10:34
Like is the, is the sort of target audience in mind.You know, the leader of a church, the leader of churches recently graduated from college, the leader who’s been in ministry for a while and the student preparing for for college.Is it all the above?Yeah.
10:49
I’m sorry, in a way.In a way it is.I think I mean, one, I think there are a couple of convictions like for me under, you know, underlie the whole book.What 1 is that being a leader is essentially being a Christian at the front.
11:08
You know, that, that as I spent time, you know, with lots of the material and, and weirdly kind of primarily Deuteronomy, Deuteronomy 17 and 18 where it talks about the king and the king.The king is supposed to be like just taken from the brotherhood of Israel.
11:24
And he’s supposed to be like everybody else.And he’s not supposed to do anything that would make him look like a king.And he’s supposed to read Deuteronomy, write it out and do it, which is like remarkably like whatever he is like has to do, you know, And similarly, when you get to the New Testament, you know, this stuff about leaders, you know, you know, man of God, you know, conduct yourself with righteousness, you know, integrity, patience, gentleness.
11:48
All of the things that Paul says to Timothy are what, you know, are said elsewhere.He says elsewhere to everybody in church.So I think that’s why, although it’s written with, you know, leaders from student ministers to seasoned leaders in night, it it does apply to everybody because we’re all supposed to do the same stuff.
12:10
It’s just some of us have to do it up the front.I think the other thing is though, part of it is written to, to kind of leaders who who’ve been doing this for a while, because I think after 10-15 years, I think we tend to kind of get into a rot and we are, we are aware of our often our sinful tendencies or our difficult tendencies.
12:36
I think sometimes we get discouraged that God can actually help us through this.And I think we that that’s when we tend to slip into saying like, you know, this is who I am.I mean, no one would use the words, but this is who I am.
12:52
Just deal with it.When actually what we need to say is this is who I am in in God’s great kindness, I do this well consistently.I’m rubbish at this and I’ve actually given myself a free pass in some of these areas.
13:11
And, and I think the book is designed to encourage to encourage leaders at every stage, but I think especially, you know, established leaders to keep working, growing, which.Which I think I think is not the both the both end mindset, You know, as you as you get stuck in a rut, you become very now this is how we do things and there’s only one way to do things.
13:32
But the both end, you know, I don’t.It’s not an argument for sitting on the fence or necessarily balance, but it’s an argument for, you know, for seeing both sides and, and actually almost almost mining for the conflict, having the conversation, you know, to, to understand the importance of both sides.
13:52
Yeah, hopefully landing and making a decision at some point in time.But it but it’s, it’s a richer, it’s a richer place to be in and it’s a more ambiguous place to be in, I think often.Yeah.And I think this is where, you know, I mean, the, it’s the subtitle of the book is, you know, living and leading like Jesus and, and Jesus is, is anything but blind.
14:12
And, and again, it’s a short book and I’m, you know, I’m not sure how well it has to do this, but I did want to say when you look at Jesus, you see Jesus doing, you know, Jesus being immensely kind and immensely confrontational.You know, it’s not that Jesus is this kind of vanilla, vanilla figure.
14:31
I think it was Dale Dale Ross Davis once said, you know, people think of Jesus as this pressy guy reeking of hand cream.And I think that he’s not that kind of inoffensive down the middle.But but he does both of these things.
14:48
And ultimately, you know, I think, you know, the fact Jesus is both is both man and God has got something to do with this.But but you end up with a fuller, richer, more full on, more energetic, more radical figure and and as a as a grapple with that, I did start to think I’m not I’m not sure we actually call each other the Christ like this very much at the minute.
15:16
Even you know, I was, you know, I may work at a college.You know, who’s you know, who’s tagline is training gospel driven leaders for a challenging world.And I was thinking even that, you know, gospel driven signs more manageable, more realisable than Christ.
15:34
Like, you know, and I think I mean, I’m like, I’m not arguing that we did, you know, gospel driven, gospel centre, gospel shaped, but I think I think it kind of feels, you know, it finds it does feel more achievable.You know, here’s a message D shaped by this message.
15:55
Actually, I kind of feel like, well, we can say a lot.We can push that do that, but we want you to love and lead like the Lord Jesus Christ.I just, you know.It’s it’s easier, it’s easy to see, it’s easy to see the impact or the difference in that the Christ like life as well.
16:13
You can see the impact and the difference ultimately in the people you’re, you’re leading and discipling in the, in the church that you’re, yeah, you’re loving and caring for.But, but so often, you know, that’s sitting below the surface in our motivations, in our, in our thought life.It can’t be seen and measured, which is well, I, I want to kind of press into this a bit bit further.
16:33
Like in some senses, the, the challenge of rise with both, you know, both leaders that you’ve spoken about at the start of the podcast, you know, they were, they were missionally effective.You know, they, yeah, the ministries were strong.They were seeing lots of change and amazing stuff locally, globally, yet personal godliness was was not there.
16:55
So, so you know, is it possible to be both personally godly and missionally effective?You know, Christ like and gospel driven?Yeah, is.The Is the challenge too hot?Yeah.Well, it is.
17:12
I do though, I do wonder, you know, it’s funny because I think I I don’t know, certainly my generation, though, why I grew up with, you know, cons.There was constant encouragement to be like Jesus, you know, always.It’s one of the verses in once in royal David City, you know, the Christmas Carol, you know, it says Christian children all must be mild, obedient, good as hey, you know, and I kind of feel like that was the same track of my childhood, adolescence, you know, and I think then we’ve gone Oh, but you know, you can’t just tell people to be like Jesus.
17:45
That’s stupid, you know, So we’ve got that, that and it ends up, you know, being legalistic and moralistic.So we’ve kind of gone, OK, let’s not do that.You know, that’s not, it’s about the gospel.It’s the gospel.God changes people through the gospel.Let’s talk about the gospel.
18:01
Let’s be missionally effective rather than piously ineffective.But the problem is when you read the New Testament, it really doesn’t leave that door open.Yeah, you know, and even, you know, just like since finishing the book, you know, I’ve been, you know, spent a bit of time in Timothy and Titus and Thessalonians and it’s just, it’s sort of annoyingly everywhere, you know, that, that especially like when it talks about leaders in the New Testament, there’s not all that much about missional effectiveness, you know, but there is bucket loads of stuff about Christ, like godly character.
18:41
And and I think, I do think we, and again, it’s, it’s both and it’s, we can’t lose the mission heat.But what we mustn’t do is just emphasise the, you know, evangelistic strategic ministry effectiveness to the point where we’re we’re not actually saying, you know, here’s the bad news.
19:01
While you do that, you also have to be like the Lord Jesus, and you have to treat people like the Lord.Jesus, which which kind of comes out in our you know, we often in our circles, you use the phrase character as king.Yes.So what it actually means to probably implement that is for us to be calling each other out on our on our lives.
19:18
Yeah, yeah.As as leaders in our teams and, and having cultures where where we’re doing that with each other.Yeah.And it’s and it’s really, really difficult, you know, because, you know, even I was reflecting why did we land on training gospel driven leaders at college, you know, rather than Christ like leaders.
19:37
Well, there’s a sense of which being Christ, like that’s the whole, that’s the work of our whole lives.You know, that’s that’s God.What God is, you know, is doing in his church week after week after week.It’s just that is a massive change project and and I think the danger for those of us, you know, in ministry or in pirate churches like a college or reach whatever, we’re going, you know what, we can actually make a significant difference in this area.
20:05
You know, like we do need people.You know, we’ve made massive advances in leading churches better, you know, in thinking strategically and you know, and even in caring for staff and thinking through high teens work.All that stuff is vital.But but I think.
20:22
I think the the challenge is always that while we’re pushing that we’ve also got to push.We need to grow in Christ likeness, you know.And, and in some, in some senses, it’s the, it’s the stuff that doesn’t make the book, you know, like, you know, if you’re going to write a book, if a lady’s going to write a book on something, you know, they’ll, they’ll present a model or an ID.
20:46
You know, their, their life doesn’t come out until you’re often, you know, dead.And there’s a biography written about you.And then you hear, you know, hear all these stories and these chapters about the impact you’ve had.You know, like as he, as he, we don’t, we don’t leave you that often, you know, and there’s a humility there.
21:02
They’ll say, I’m not gonna talk, talk to you about my amazing prayer life and my spiritual life and the way that I’m regularly confessing sin and humbling myself to people.Yeah, I’m gonna come.I’m gonna come across as a jerk.I have a book, an old book, my best friend, you know, kind of sent me this from the USA couple of years ago.
21:21
It’s a book called the Pastor of Killsythe, which is a fairly nondescript place in Scotland.And he wrote about his dad.You know, there was this like 18th century, 19th century Scottish minister I thought really like Andrew, have you sent me this for?And I read it and it was deeply moving because there’s a sense of which the guy does nothing remarkable.
21:42
It is a book about a godly pastor doing not, you know, not a whole lot like a not, not a like people came to Christ and the church grew a little bit, you know, but but it was it, it was so arresting reading it because it was good.
22:00
That book wouldn’t, we wouldn’t write that book, you know, wouldn’t you know, I’m not sure it would be published today.And probably people like me would look at it and go, why would I read that?But it was a really helpful counterpoint here because it yes, we need ideas.Yes, we need to do things differently.
22:17
Yes, we need to press on.Yes, we need to grow and change, but we also need, we actually also need to be gone late.And I think, you know, often it’s, it’s not, I think one of the, one of the things I’m very aware of in college is that the, the weaknesses of what we teach here will be obvious in 20 years time, But they’re not obvious now because because the biases in what we do, you know, and what I say to people will be, it’s hard to remember to say the things that are blindingly obvious to you, you know, So it’s when you’ve got godly ministry leaders, they’re really quite often quite bad at calling other people to be godly, you know, because they just do it.
23:11
And to them it’s about, you know, I mean, you know, not name names, but I, I can think of, you know, ministry leaders, you know, kind of senior to me.I’ve never heard them tell anyone to read their Bible and pray.I have no doubt that they have done it every day, probably for the last six years.
23:29
But, but it’s so obvious, but I think then the problem, the problem is, you know what, what, what am I talking about?What are, you know, those of us who are older talking about, we’re talking about the new discoveries, we’re talking about the critical issues in church, the things that need to change.The problem is then 20 years down the line, there’ll be a generation of leaders who haven’t learned the stuff that is just that we just think is bread and butter because we learned those 20 years ago and then we focused on the stuff that we haven’t, you know, so, so I think, I think that’s in, in that sense, you know, I don’t think I, I don’t think anybody’s going to learn much new in the book, but I, I actually just, I hope that people will reflect on the fullness of what it means to serve the Lord Jesus, especially at the front.
24:21
Yeah, well, the book, I mean, the book covers theology, identity, relationships, ministry, leadership and community.And then you you finish.You finish is encouraging us to actually make the effort, you know, to do this.
24:37
I was, is there something that you, you know, wish you could have added to it?Because it’s it is quite a it’s quite a short, punchy, punchy book.Is there something, something you may see that?Because I look at that list and think that’s pretty, that’s pretty broad.It pretty much covers.I wish, yeah, I wish it could have done all of it better.
24:54
Scott.Scott.I, I this isn’t meant to be promoting the book, Gary.I don’t.I don’t know if you know.What it is, it was a pure pure.It used to write books, you know that off.That started, though, like a humble attempt.That’s what I feel like about the best.
25:12
And I think I, I think, you know, the, the over the last two or three months, I mean, as I mentioned, I think I’m, I’ve been struck again by what Paul asks of leaders even, you know, personally, you know, the fact that gentleness comes across so often, you know, I mean, I’m cut.
25:35
Yeah, I think 7 or 8 times Paul talks about gentleness in the context of, you know, the elders or Titus or Timothy, pardon me.And I think, I think just mapping out the, the New Testament picture of the leader kind of didn’t make it into the book at at the end.
25:54
And, and just the emphasis on, I mean, I think ultimately it is, it’s a bit like the fruit of the spirit.I think Paul’s probably thinking of the Lord Jesus as, as he, as he, Yeah, you know, and I and I think, I think, you know, I would like to maybe done a little bit more on that, but I mean, I’m just, I’m continuing to think about that.
26:17
But I think it is just that.Yeah, it it’s that I think just think I just want people to not just say, I think when we say character is king, I think that’s true.
26:33
But I think we tend to go, you know, comedies and convictions, character.We’re committed to character.Now let’s move on and let’s talk about competency and convictions because we can do something about those much more quickly, you know, And I think I think the character thing, I think character is too.
26:51
Gent is too.I think we need a better line, better term.I think we need to recover, you know, whether it’s godliness or Christ, Christlikeness.That brings a much sharper challenge because I think for us, when we talk about character, it’s all too easy to go.
27:10
Yeah.I’ve got I’ve got bucket loads of character.But when we say Christlikeness, we go, OK, yeah.Well, the book, the book is a is a good one for ministry teams to be having these conversations and for senior let us be opening up the conversation with their staff teams and and reflecting not only in their own lives, but also in the lives of their their key leaders in in church life as well.
27:37
Gary, what’s the one thing you want people to know about both and ministry?And it’s it is it is an encouragement to live and serve like Jesus.And at the end of the day, I think that’s what it’s about.
27:56
You know that like as in, you know, I think, I think when, you know, when I get, you know, when I get to the end, I think if people were to were to say, yeah, he, he lived and LED like the Lord Jesus.Well, I think that’s something that’s something to aspire to.
28:14
And and I I think, you know, hearing well done, good and faithful servant that that’s that’s the incentive that Jesus himself gives us.And I reckon for most of us, we go, OK, yeah, I I reckon I’ll be a bit of a disappointment to Jesus in my character.
28:38
I’d better, I better try to do lots of stuff that might get me over the line.But I think that that Jesus actually wants us to transform us in the power of the Spirit, even as we serve him falteringly.So, you know, I do hope the book will lift people’s chins and to Jesus and enable us to go, yes, Lord, you’re clearly at work in me.
29:03
But there is there’s so much more that you have to do and you are actually committed to doing it so.Well, the book the book is out by the good book company, both and ministry living and leading like Jesus.
29:19
It’ll be on sale soon and a useful one next year to to take your leadership teams through Gary.It’s been really good having you on the one thing.Always good to tell.Scott, now if you’ve got a topic that you want us to cover, please email us at [email protected] dot AU.
29:35
I’m Scott Sanders. Chat soon.
