Wade and Paul tackle questions from church leaders about the complexities of multisite, leadership, governance, and culture.
Questions include:
- Can two struggling churches merge into something healthy and growing?
- What are the challenges and implications of changing a church’s governing structure?
- How do you choose the right leader for a multisite context, especially in more matrix-style leadership models?
- How can a church without a strong planting culture begin to develop one?
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TRANSCRIPT:
The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
G’day, I’m Pete Hughes and you clicked on the Reach Australia podcast.This is the last of four sessions on multi site church planting.I hope that you’ve had a chance to listen to the previous three.This one is particularly AQ and a session with Wade Burnett, our international expert on multi site church planting and Paul and Sue Harrington as leaders of the Trinity Church Planting Network.
0:26
Hope you enjoy.Yeah, I’m going to, I’m going to kick it off just with the question that I think I’m actually going to drag Scott up for as well because I’m going to ask the question and Wade touched on before.But it is a conversation that we’re having more and more.
0:44
And I think Matt raised before around mergers of churches and what that looks like and how it is.Scott, I might get you to kick off the the question issue is what do we, how does multi side fit with mergers?
1:00
How do we think about that?Can you add 2 dead churches together and get a live church?Is that how resuscitation works?And how how just denominational leaders and church leaders?How are you thinking of this area?OK, SO22 questions.Yeah, Yeah, we’ve been, we’ve been, there’s been a lot more conversations being started with us with a church’s approaches to, to, to merge.
1:24
And I, I think our experience of mergers in Australia is, is what Jim Tomalone in his book Better Together calls an ICU merger.So you got 2 dead or dying.Churches come together and they drown faster or maybe drown a little bit slower.
1:41
And I think most of us just go, OK, it’s a bad, it’s a bad thing.The model that Jim has seen as some some sense a a line in the multi site world where a church is dying and they they approach a church that’s got momentum.People may not have property, but but may have, you know, a growth trajectory that they don’t have is the one that we’re exploring more and more with churches where, you know, a church is getting into that life, life preservation stage and saying, Hey, we want to do something, we want to steward these resources well.
2:13
And so I, I often describe it as a well, it’s just described in Jim Tomalone’s book as a bit of a, a marriage, bit of a, a marriage and a dance.And so the coding phase and then the engagement phase and then the marriage phase and then the honeymoon period and then the post honeymoon period.
2:30
But that’s a really good conversation to kind of be exploring and pushing into Cos.Often what flows out of that is, is a multi site church, one church in two locations.But the really healthy, healthy thing about a engaging this in a, in a strategic, in a strategic way is actually hopefully to, to do what Jim calls, you know, I guess merger, merger math or good merger maths, which is 1 + 1 doesn’t equal 2, but actually equals 5 or equals 10.
3:00
And so how we’ve been approaching it as a, as a, an opportunity actually to, to reach a region far better, but also to see the stewardship of God’s resources far better.I know Trinity Networks, you know, experience that with Lockleys and, and Des Smith with a, with a Bredo church.
3:19
Is that right?Or, or Christian, Christian Community Church or yeah, yeah, not Des, but someone in the treaty network.And we’ve worked with a number of churches now where we’ve, we’ve helped them sort of manage that conversation and move, move towards merging and merging well so that so that they can actually launch, you know, a lot stronger.
3:41
Great.Go.Go away from me.Last time it squealed.Yeah.Cool.I tried to save all your ears.Yeah.I’ll just say a couple things about mergers.If you’re, if you’re a growing church, this is the most cost effective way to find a new facility.
4:05
It’s so cost effective that one category of merger is called mercenary mergers.I don’t recommend those, but we’ve been contacted and a number of times to serve as a, a kind of facilitator of, of the merger conversation.
4:26
Because if you remember to this morning, we have 300,000 churches that are on, on the whole declining.And so that means there are lots of, of empty church buildings and other resources around the country where I live.
4:45
So what you’re looking at or maybe what you’re looking for is a church with, with vision and some great leadership who needs space.And then a church with space that needs some vision and some leadership.
5:02
And you’re starting to ask the question of can you put those two things together?And my answer to that, if I’m asked, can you put those two things together?I always say yes, but not easily.And so here’s how we evaluate putting them together.In every mission driven merger, that’s the category we’re talking about.
5:23
Now.There is a lead church and adjoining church, and this has nothing to do with size.This has everything to do with who who is bringing the leadership and the vision to this conversation.
5:44
It has nothing to do with the buildings or the wealth of the respective congregations or the resources that might be in the bank accounts.Again, you’re looking at who has leadership and vision and is bringing that to the conversation.This is what was proposed to me as a young pastor joining church, asked if we would consider merging.
6:09
But one of the reasons I called Jim Tomberlin was they had a really beautiful facility and money in the bank and, and felt like we would come be coming into this 5050 and the 50% that I was evaluating, I didn’t feel as strongly about as they did.
6:30
Y’all with me.I didn’t feel as positively about it.And so one of the things that Jim shared with me, and again, I I would recommend the book that Scott read.If you’re leading a, a mission driven, high vision, great leadership church, you’re very likely to have one of these conversations over the next 10 years where you or the denomination you work in asks, would you consider an adoption?
6:55
And your first step, if you do that, I would recommend is to read the book Better Together, which has this dynamic set forth in there of a mission driven merger.And this really is the only kind of merger if I’m just making a blanket statement that I would recommend.
7:12
And so I’m going to use a little Americanized language here just to, I want to make this point as directly and as quickly as I can.In the merger, it’s not that each church brings 50% and we compromise together in the merger, this church wins.
7:29
OK, I want to make you all uncomfortable when I say that this church wins.So if this church says we’re we’re open to a merger, but we want to make sure that we have a 115 service because we’ve always had a 115 service and that’s a condition of ours and doing this merger.
7:48
But you guys as great leaders are leading this church, What do you say to them about the 115 service?Yeah, we’re not doing that.We don’t do that at our church.Well, maybe you do and that’s a great thing, but I’m trying to pick a time that, you know you wouldn’t normally do.
8:06
Maybe it’s a 7:00 AM service.Let’s go with that one.You don’t look like early morning people to me.Yes, there we go.So y’all getting the, the, I’ll use an Australian word, the vibe of this.They’re going to want things their way.
8:22
And that’s not actually best on the whole.It’s best on the whole for the church that has leadership and health and vision and momentum to bring those things to the merger without any conditions.And that’s what a mission driven merger is.A lot of those won’t work or won’t work the first time through because this church will be asked to change in some ways that they may not be ready to change.
8:46
And that’s where a guide like Reach Australia or Derek or Scott to personalize it even more can be really, really helpful because the choices on that are often continued decline or we can actually do something together.That’s the reason for the book.
9:02
That gives it a very different path forward, but there are some very hard changes in that.It’s a very hard conversations that also have to happen in that for the lead church to actually lead through the merger.And a guide can be very, very helpful.So not if, but when you’re approached about one of those by the book Better Together and then call Derek or Scott and ask them to facilitate these hard conversations.
9:25
Well, can you get pulled?Because this has happened in the Trinity network recently.Just describe what that process was like.Yep, sure.So over the years we’ve been approached lots of times to sort of do merges with other churches.What that normally sounds like is can you please send us 50 people for our church?
9:46
Because we’re having problems and we never normally get much beyond that.But recently there was a Reformed Church.So you, you won’t remember, we planted a church in Campbelltown, 2022.And the, there was a church in Campbelltown, a Reformed Church.
10:03
And they approached us.We said, we’re here, you’re about to plant a church, could we merge together?And then I, you know, I spoke to various, every person I spoke to said that’s not going to work.You know, it really won’t work for all sorts of different reasons.
10:19
But the pastor of the former pastor of that church asked me to catch up with the elders.I did.And I asked them.They said, look, we’ve been trying to reach a local suburb with the gospel for years.We’ve been a more Dutch Reformed, South African Reformed.We’re a niche sort of group that we don’t seem to be connecting evangelistically and we want to reach our suburb.
10:40
You guys seem to be doing that.We’d love you to help us do that.And we went through a whole process with them meeting for about 12 months.And eventually what we did was we put a church planning proposal to them.There was them stopping their church, leaving their venue, joining a group from another one of our churches into a new venue to start a new church, essentially.
11:08
Basically, they were giving everything up, and we figured that putting that proposal to them, they wouldn’t do it and we’d move on, you know.So we turned up to their eldership meeting.They’d read the proposal, and they didn’t seem to be saying much.And I thought they must be really angry, you know, sort of, I thought that’s where we were.
11:26
And anyway, we said, So what questions?No, no, we don’t.We’ve already discussed this, and we think this is exactly the right thing to do.So they took it to an eldership.They took it to a meeting of their church.The elders voted on it. 98% of the people said, Yep, we should join the Trinity Network and start a new church plan and move out of that building and just sell that.
11:46
They then said to us, what do you want to do with the money when we sell the building?And we said you need to work that out.That’s your church and your money and that will be your decision to work out what you do with it.We’re we’re not doing this for your building or for your money.
12:04
We’re doing it because we want to start a new church to reach people with the gospel.And they actually eventually sold their building and gave us the money, but we weren’t involved in that process at all.We launched on a Sunday.There are a whole stack of people who who in that church were thinking, yeah, we’ve agreed to do this, but now we’ve got to set up buildings every Sunday.
12:26
We used to have a building, but they’re building only held 120 people and so we didn’t want to, we wanted to start a church.So we’d get bigger than that fairly quickly.And so on the 1st Sunday, all the elders came up to me and other people and said, oh, so we’re so excited to be here with more people than we could have fit into our building.
12:46
And we see exactly why we needed to do this.And it’s been an incredibly successful merger, but it’s been because it was mission driven.That was their heart.The decisions we made were around that sort of decision.
13:02
We said we think it’s going to be best for reaching new people.Their building was part of a retirement village, you know, in a fairly backwards sort of spot.And there were lots of reasons why it just wasn’t going to work.But it was because of the godliness of those elders and their conviction, which is why it did work.
13:20
And I think that’s the thing to test.We’ve done it once because actually it came together.But I think it’s pretty, pretty hard.And I think re pots have always got challenges with them as well for the same sorts of reasons, yeah.It’s good Tim’s got Tim’s got a question.
13:37
So I think when we do this, just name context and questions.Tim Capel, Christchurch, New Zealand.Can you just speak a little bit to the the selection of a leader for a multi site and the context where a church has maybe shifted away from the congregational pastor to a more purpose lead or matrix model of leadership?
13:58
Does that diminish the importance of getting the right leader for a multi site because the leadership’s more shared?Yeah, that’s a great question.I do think this is the one of the inflection points for multi site with with a number of the churches that I’ve I’ve met with here.
14:21
And when I say met with, I mean like consulted with and and been back to over the years.How many you of you have some version of like the EMS model of ministry?I know y’all didn’t use bees in Australia, but OK, see how many hands are up.That’s not necessarily a multi site friendly model.
14:41
So even working with the church yesterday after after their morning services and talking through how things were going, this is the tension point that comes up.And the lead pastor actually said, I feel like we’re moving away from a lot of our leadership and influence being in the EMS and a lot of our leadership and influence moving toward the campus pastor.
15:05
And that’s attention.But that was, that was certainly the development there.That shifting kind of importance of different roles at different stages of development is very real, very, very real.And, and there are a lot that we could speak to.
15:20
One of them is that executive role that I identified earlier.So I, I got a chance to meet with Norwest last week as they’re evaluating some of these kinds of things and shared, shared with Pete that, you know, just as I was sharing with all of you, wrestle with the change in your role when you now are partnering with somebody whose significance to this whole approach is going to go up in a lot of ways.
15:47
And, and the level of trust and relationship that has to exist there for that to work well is now critical to the model.That’s just one other example of how these things can shift.I so my thought would be the scalability of an IMS model across multiple campuses is a bit like what I was talking about in terms of the ability to run multi site.
16:10
That is the more sites you have the more complex it gets.I think the way probably to deal with that is to be realistic about going from say one church to two or three, the spans of responsibility for M people.
16:27
I think my gut is probably the best way to do that is by using the EMS as a diagnostic model and rather than trying to have people appointed to EMS that work over multiple campuses.I think that they’re it can be done, but it is very complicated because what you’re doing, you know, classic matrix model past EMS or vice versa, you know, and then just multiply that over more campuses and you get the problem.
16:59
You you really do stretch the capacity.So you know, the diagram towards this end and it’s a, you know, 9.9 dive, I reckon multi siding using the same staff across multiple campuses and you’re you’re pushing way up this end.
17:18
It can be done, but it requires, I think, exceptionally clever people to pull it off.What we’ve tended to do is still run with a purpose driven model, but beginning churches to indigenize that in their local context rather than try and get the M type people straddling across, you know, like 14 churches.
17:37
You just can’t do it, you know?But what we are, because we’re a family of churches, is we’ll have people working certain purposes in some locations that are skilled and can provide consultancy space for other churches to share resources that sort of way.
17:53
I think just thinking cleverly about how you do it, I think your first first part of your question was does it affect who you select as a campus pastor?So I think you’re hearing me say, no, no, no, that’s still really a critical appointment either for a a multi site or for a church plant.
18:13
But in the multi site space, still critical to get the right campus pastor because they’ll have to coordinate those purposes for that location.They need to be the right sort of person, I think.Yeah.Derek Heath, Heath asked me one at the break that I wanted him to, to be able to ask here because Paul was weighing in on it a little bit.
18:35
Sorry, we’ll come right back.It just touches on this a little too.Thanks.Yeah.So not all of us have somewhere we can launch within 20 minutes radius of us.But in your discussion of maximizing location, you really only address the AM time slot.
18:51
So if a church was to try and maximize their location by launching kind of missionarily into APM time slot, say for a non Christian audience who plays sport on a Sunday morning, but they’re the ones that you want to target.Do you think that would be more like launching a multi site or a church plant in your own building?
19:10
You were talking about church times, I thought.Yeah, look, the if you’re in the morning and you’re full and you think I know what we’ll do, we’ll launch an evening gathering.It’s there are a couple of things to bear in mind.The evening is new.Like the reason why people are meeting in the mornings, because they want to meet in the morning, they don’t want to meet in the evening.
19:29
And often the group that come in the evening are very different to the morning group.So from our point of view, when some of their churches have gotten full launched in the evening, it’s taken no pressure off the morning at all.And the morning should have planted, you know, like they should have actually bitten the bullet and started something that worked for this sort of group.
19:47
I’m not saying done to the evening, not at all, but I’m just saying often it’s done with a view to relieving pressure on the morning.But it is highly unusual to achieve that sort of purpose.Trying to reach a new target audience in the evening is a great goal to have and I’d encourage people to be thinking, you know, about how to do that, but you’ve almost got to treat the morning.
20:11
It might be a resource for the evening, but you’ve got to treat it as it’s own, you know, it’s own thing in order to work out the where that’s going.The other comment that that I was talking to Wade about in the break was maximising site space by multiplying to 9:00 and 11:00.
20:30
I think when you’ve got your own building, that can work pretty well.Our experience is we’ve tried that numbers of times in buildings that we don’t own and we found the 11 is a real stretch in our context.Now it might be just Adelaide.
20:45
We can do 9 for families that that can work. 11 just is stretching it.And I wonder if it’s because the American culture is a little, it’s still especially in some places, more of that church going DNA on a Sunday morning in their system.
21:03
That means the time is less sensitive when you’re pushing towards lunch.But you guys might have a different experience.We’ve we’ve done that several locations.The second one is always the tough one.Our city church where we own the building, we run 2.I am all age gatherings and that works reasonably well.
21:22
But my guess is if we combine those at 10, it would probably flourish.And maybe if we planted from there, we might actually be better off.To be quite honest.That’s I think that’s a question that we’ve wrestled with for a while, Yeah.I, I would put way more credibility on Paul’s take on that than not.
21:43
The 9:00 and 11:00 from America may not have application here at all.And so Heath, that’s why I wanted to make sure we answered this here so that everybody could hear that and consider that when I say maximize your facility, that’s for you to determine what that looks like.
21:59
The other part of your question about it being for a unique audience, to me, again, these are just shades, but that shades much more to the church planter type thinking because you’re no longer just reproducing what you do in the morning and doing it over again.You’re having to think through whole new approaches to reach maybe different groups of people that you aren’t reaching in the morning.
22:20
And so you have to be creative, not necessarily just using the exact same kinds of strategies.And all of these are going to be variations of some of these same tensions.Like John came up to me during the break.They have an evening congregation that’s sort of beginning to take off and wondering what do I do there?
22:41
So these, that’s why I say these aren’t rules.These are principles for you guys to consider as under that heading of what it looks like to maximize your facility.And what I would say for Paul, if I’m looking from the outside, is he feels like it’s maximized in the morning when that one strategic service is getting full because then that allows him to prepare for a plant and they backfill that.
23:03
That’s what they’ve determined maximizing looks like for them.So don’t just assume 9 and 11 is the way to go.Y’all with me?All right, good.Yeah, thanks.I think I’m Liam, I’m from Morissette.I think I just heard Paul say we’re trying a much too hard dive, but we’ve got a single staff team running a multi site over 2 locations 9:30 in the morning and then 4:00 PM in the afternoon, 20 minutes apart.
23:27
So we one thing, right?Yeah, I and doing the matrix the M’s across across both.So two staff just wondering, I guess Wade is there a stream of multi site where that might work ever?
23:43
Oh yeah.Is there is there a stream where you’d share staff across your 20 minute multi site and what would that look like?Yeah, I absolutely there is.I think it would fit within that 80 to 90% that have one location.It’s just to Paul’s point when you start elevating the the the how far you can stretch all of those rolls, how many locations and and congregations they can get to the difficulty of the dive goes way up and and I love this word.
24:13
You have to start thinking cleverly for us that has a little like sinister note to it.America clever is and I I actually like that like you have to think almost coldly about will this work to keep stretching that in different directions so absolutely it can work and it can especially work for one additional location and especially when you give it margin across times.
24:39
I would start to have real questions about that when you start thinking about adding on more, which is where Paul began to stretch the model in, in new ways.And guys, I just can’t stress enough like when when he gives that kind of input as to like he did for you, Tim on how to deal with the EMS model.
24:57
And they’ve they’ve adjusted.And this is one of the best leaders I’ve been around, whether in Australia or anywhere else.Again, I would just put an enormous amount of of stock and not necessarily a solution that you just pull over, but the way he approached it, you have this problem.
25:14
So we made these adjustments and then we re evaluated this.Those are things that I would I would weigh heavily.Liam, I think the difference in time I’d agree with.I’m particularly thinking about how you get, you know, multi site, same times with same staff.
25:34
And one of the drawbacks with that is you’ve got staff not being committed to a congregation or only committed to one or do you know what I mean?Like, I don’t think that’s healthy.It’s at the end of the day, except in a coaching sort of space rather than a belonging space.Yeah.
25:49
So, yeah, Duncan Andrews over here who’s just joined us, that they’re trying exactly the same thing as you guys next, next year, thinking from the morning congregation, starting something in the evening, using a team to do both things.And I think that that’s, that’s certainly achievable.
26:06
Yeah.I just wanted to say about the 9:00 and 11:00 maybe possibly not working in Australia.Well, we’ve done 9:00 and 10:30 in Wollongong and very successfully.So there’s a.There’s an idea.
26:22
And then planted a church as well.With how many rod?60 people.Yeah.Thank you.Any strategies?
26:40
Oh, sorry Dave from Tuggeranong.Any strategies you’ve found helpful if a church doesn’t have planting in its DNA to develop that culture?Yep, that was us.How long ago?We, we’ve waited 180 years.
26:58
I think we we’ve worn out a few generations not doing it.The I can only I can tell you what I did.So I was a larger church.I was, you know, I was 34 when I became a senior pastor and the rector.
27:13
And I remember that say when it was announced in church, there were two very typically Adelaide responses, right?The first one was 3-4 hundred people went right when I was it was announced.And then they immediately applauded, you know, very supportive.
27:31
The week after I had a, a senior member of the congregation come up to me, 70 years old, about foot taller than me and sort of looked down on me and said I think the trustees have made a terrible mistake.And he said you’re far too young, you’re far too inexperienced to do this job.
27:48
Waited for my response and I said then he said, but you’ll have my full support.He left.What I tried to do in that space was take a fair bit of time to help, you know, re re veer the ship in a different direction and we used a whole lot of things.
28:10
The internal new congregation kept saying we’re full, but Adelaide’s spiritually sick.The senior leaders of the church sent me away to get some experience.I went to America, spent time with Wade and people like that.
28:26
I did a church planting Corset Fuller.They invested in that direction.When I came back, people expected we were going to do something, but that was a five year development plan and we’re trying to lay some of the foundation.
28:41
So I think depending on your context, what does patience look like, persuasion look like, the convictions that go with it.Why do we want to plant, you know, like the to reach lost people.I think doing that sort of thing.First church plant, 30% of people thought it was a good idea. 30 we’re waiting to see what would happen. 30 thought it was dumb.
29:04
Second one, higher percentage.It wasn’t a disaster the first time.And so everyone was saying, oh, no, we should give this another shot.Still the group thinking it was dumb.By the time we did it the third time, 2010, everyone was saying, oh, that makes sense.
29:19
We’re a church planting church, aren’t we?You know, like it’s the patiently instructing, training, gathering, you know, doing that sort of work to get to that point.And I, I can say personally, I’m impatient.So it was hard work taking the time to do it, but I think it was appropriate to do that sort of time.
29:41
So I think clarity on what you’re trying to do given the congregation you’ve got and it’s size, how, how do you take the steps to get to a point and don’t scare?So I came back from overseas in America and I thought, what do we need in Italy?
29:57
Probably 750 church plants.That’s what I thought, you know, but I didn’t announce that.I just said I think we need to plant a church.You know.Now, I had in my mind we needed to plant lots of churches, but I started with 1.
30:13
And I think trying to get yourself going, rolling, doing it step by step as you move along, Yeah.Yeah, I I don’t have really much at all to add.I just would say to the extent you can reinforced for the church that doing nothing is not an option.
30:33
So you’re going to do something, whatever context you’re located in, there are people who desperately need to hear the gospel.You’re positioned in a unique place in order to be part of that.We’re called to accomplish the Great Commission like we’re going to do something and the question is what?And, and I think when those seeds are planted, it’ll still, it feels like a big stretch, especially when you’re sending people out for the first time, it feels like a big stretch.
31:00
But if they understand that this is what we are doing and doing our part, there can be a little bit of excitement built even there at the beginning.Hi, guys.Josh from the Bridge Church, Just wondering Paul, you made the comment of playing church and when you listen to people talk, when one listens to people talk about church planting, there’s often different approaches like there’s an attraction or kind of an approach.
31:33
There’s a evangelizing churches into existence.So you know, starting not public and then going public later.Can you talk about that dynamic with multi site as well?How does how do you avoid playing church and how do you make sure that the the the new site is actually evangelistic and reaching the lost?
31:56
Yeah, I think so.If I’ll make a couple of comments because Wyatt will have more to say about this than me really that in COVID we, you know, with all that density and everything like that, we pushed people off site into a new location, but we weren’t church planting and the, the, the new congregation, even post COVID, we left it in place.
32:19
But because it started as a solution to a, a pressure problem with space, it never really had that DNA to do evangelism and that sort of thing.And in fact, we’ve then relocated that congregation to a new spot with a relaunch with clarity on what they were doing.
32:38
I think with multi sighting that can be a risk.We’re replicating the mother church.Now if the mother church is healthy evangelistically and you beat that drum for the new location, then you can do it successfully.But there is a risk that we’re just doing it as a solution to solve space stuff.
32:57
So I think Wade commented on the, you know, the 20 minute rule closer the the challenges with that.And I think that’s classically we’re solving a, a space problem solution rather than trying to work out how we’re gonna reach new people with the gospel.
33:13
So I think there are a couple of comments, but you’ll have more to say about that mate.I I would affirm all of that.I, I mean, again, part of the reason Josh and I shared all we did at the beginning is to, to, again, we’re looking at strengths and weaknesses.It’s to let you guys have a full look at where this model originated, which was to solve a space problem.
33:32
And so that DNA is inherent in the model.And I think if if a lot of thoughts not given to some of the things that you’re talking about, it can become just a new way to make church easier for Christians who are already inclined to come to church.
33:48
You have to to work very hard to go against that.That’s something, Derek, I don’t know if you want to speak to this, but he he pushed into in a number of the consults I’ve sat in with him.It’s not worth doing if all we do is create a spot for church that’s easier for Christians to attend.
34:08
So, Derek, I don’t know if you want to talk about the evangelistic approaches of churches as these things are launched.I will say it is established that this is a very effective evangelistic model.It will tend to reach people that you won’t otherwise reach from what you’re currently doing, but there has to be some intentionality given to that too.
34:28
Yeah, very briefly, I, I think that the studies we’ve done even recently we’re seeing no matter the type of church plan, nearly always they reach more people percentage than established churches nearly always across the board.Doesn’t matter the time we would probably see percentage wise, the parachute pioneer plan has reached a higher percentage and partly that’s reflective of the person, but that’s not more numbers necessarily either.
34:54
Actually you start with five and you got, you get, you know, 1 conversion, you got 25% or 20% conversion rate.They’re doing pretty well.But it it it’s so much depends on the leader in that context, but we would say if you’re not reaching anyone where you are, don’t expect to reach anyone when you plan.
35:12
Just you know, what makes you think you will.So we we want to drill it in the Pauls current DNA is good.Now I’ve got a question for my phone.Then I’ll head over there and then down to Chris, if that’s all right.So the question on the phone was I was introduced to the idea recently that disciple making movements, small group settings that invite outsiders, open the Bible and multiply are more effective at making disciples than our current models, including church planning which resource heavy and takes time.
35:39
Now we’re not doing this question.Sorry, I don’t know who did this one.No, it’s a joke.We are doing this question.Have you got thoughts?There are other ways to reach people?Is there a place for both even?How do we use these to stop and make movements?How does it fit into multi side?
35:56
So I think it’s a question around the different models.Large and small, resource heavy, not resource heavy.Maybe pushing to to Matt’s micro church as well.Smaller churches?How do you see these fitting you?Want me to go?Yeah, Yeah, I I think multi site as a model is a poor place for experimentation.
36:16
That just would be my overarching response to that.So if you’re evaluating some of the kinds of things that were included in that question, disciple making models that don’t, don’t rely on all of the expensive things that go with buildings and staff and and our current approaches.
36:39
I would not marry those new kinds of ideas that you’re wanting to evaluate to a multi site launch.I would, I would tend to in, in my way of thinking, create some research and development lanes.Is that term translate?
36:56
Yep.Some freedom within where we currently are operating to go try all of that, a micro site and see if it’s has traction with a place that has the ability to respond to whether it actually clicks or not.Then I would to marry it to a new launch, whether that’s multi site or church planting.
37:15
Yeah.The only thought I’d have to throw in is that whatever the mouldy you’re doing in terms of multi siding, church planting or whatever, you’ve, you do have to think deliberately about how you’re making disciples Well through that, both from evangelism right through to how you’re growing people in the gospel, how you’re helping them to think about how they develop in service, in ministry.
37:37
None of that I think happens best by accident.So that design work needs to feature.I don’t think that’s that design work has historically been a strength of our network.And so the the qualitative work of I, I think in the evangelism space, we’ve always worked hard at that the great people to maturity and deliberateness in raising up people who serve.
38:04
We’ve learned a lot through being a part of the the Rich Australia stuff and having that that our lens challenge from that point of view so that we actually think about how in our churches we’re doing that more effectively and deliberately.And I think so wherever you go, like we all want to make disciples, you know?
38:22
So just be thinking through how you’re going to do it in your context is obviously a good thing to do.I’ll take a little risk here and just say that this large model of church that I shared this morning was designed and implemented and resulted in the mega church, but didn’t get widespread adoption here for a lot of different reasons, some practical and some more related to how how you guys see church.
38:51
That model is, and this is not my opinion.This is this is data-driven.It’s actually pretty poorly designed to make disciples.So I just want you to know that you may in some ways have been protected from a lot of sideways energy that didn’t accomplish what we’re all supposed to actually be about.
39:07
And when I say that’s data-driven, one of the resources that I’d suggest if you’re interested in this I’m checking out is the Reveal study.It’s a little dated now, but this is a study that was a survey that was done from every member and regular attender of Willow Creek around their personal spiritual journey with the church and their walk with Jesus.
39:32
And what they learned at the end of that study or survey as they they assimilated now they did a great thing.They hired somebody external to the church to lead that survey so that it wasn’t influenced at all by anyone inside the church kind of being steered towards saying these are great things that we do.
39:50
And, and the outcome at the end of all of that, it’s really kind of, yeah, shocking was.They found little to no correlation.Well, let me back up even one step further.They found that the church was excellent at encouraging people to take the steps they were asking them to take.
40:11
So that’s number one.We’re really clear about the steps we want to ask you to take, and the church was really good at encouraging people to take those steps.So visit, then membership, then join a group, y’all with me, then volunteer.People took those steps.The church was great at that, but at the end they found there was very little to no correlation between someone taking those steps and actually growing in their walk with Christ.
40:36
And that gulf between the two was pretty shocking.Little to no correlation is really, really strong language.So that’s a question around discipleship models that’s been going on in the American church since then.Just wanted you to have that as well, just in case all of you were inclined to go start a mega church.
40:55
I just wanted to.Sorry, I’m just processing what you just said.Jade Grace City, we are from Sydney.So we’ve we planted in Waterloo 10 years ago now and then I’ve just planted in Rockdale.
41:12
So just 15 minute drive.So tick also tick is we planted in September.But if you think about it, it’s not a tick.No, it’s not the.Other way around.So I have a question and then Diana has a better question.
41:30
My question is we planted in September, which as you can imagine is the opposite of what you just said is a good time to plant.We’re starting to see the winter lull like, and it’s really like this is the point of the church where it’s supposed to be kicking off and.
41:47
People are just like, oh, it’s raining, maybe I shouldn’t come to church today.And you’re like, that’s not a good reason not to come to church.Is there like we’ve had ideas of like, hey, should we do it like a relaunch?Like it’s still early.We can just do a hey, we’re celebrating 6 months of being a church and let’s invite everyone get, you know, try to try to get it pumped up.
42:04
Have you seen things in the past that have worked when someone has planted not at the ideal time?We’ve we’ve launched a couple of churches same time as you guys.Generally though, what we’ve done is deliberately launched in that sort of September, October heading into fourth term, picked up on the move towards Christmas as we’ve headed into the start of the school year, fall America, we’ve relaunched.
42:32
So the, the reason we’ve done that is because when you launch a church, no one knows you’ve done it except for the people who know.Which means when you come to a new part of the year and you say come to our church and you treat it, you don’t say, you know, like we’re just starting a church.
42:47
But if you do various things to attract people at that time of the year, the people you connect with don’t know and you’re still young and so you can have a double launch.And that’s what we’ve tended to do.The other thing I’d say is that I’m quite keen on churches to think about capitalising on events.
43:09
So again, our experience is, yeah, launch strong.We try and launch as big as possible and, and know that actually that that actually helps with your start of size in a strange sort of way.
43:25
So, you know, we do that deliberately.And then I think events in the church life capitalize the classics, Easter and Christmas, but you can insert, we always have plant birthdays and we unashamedly say we’ve been here 12 months, we’ve been here 2 years.
43:43
You know, we’ve, you know, we just keep doing that because it’s good to celebrate the aware of people.We try.And yeah, we’re comfortable about picking up on Mother’s Day or Father’s Day or, you know, events that are occurring in the life of your community as Invitational sort of moments.And I I think they’re good.
43:59
They’re good, too.Yeah.I would just say yes, absolutely.Yeah.We have a skill in America of of the declaring that our strategy was whatever happened.So what we would call that for you is the first one was just a soft launch.
44:15
You know, we were we were developing our leaders and now our grand opening is yeah.So but yeah, I think launch again launching is a skill and and get better at it till you get it right.Yep.Yep.No shame.
44:32
Yep.I’m Diana, I’m with Jade at Grace City.I’m interested to hear about the governing model, like your governing structure which you’ve is, it has evolved at Trinity.It sounds like it was more reactive, like finding a solution to a problem as you faced it.
44:50
So now you’ve walked that journey, looking back, do you think there is a different way of setting it up earlier by foreseeing growth and, and how did you find that change in governing structure?Did you lose staff?
45:05
Did you lose people who are like, how did you manage that change?Was it a difficult change when the governing structure changed?The only people who probably were affected by those changing governance steps were the senior pastors of the churches.
45:23
So there was a level at which when we adjusted, but the first adjustment you saw was Mother Church running other churches.When we moved to A1, we’re all in this together space, of course, all the all the churches and the Mother Church was comfortable.
45:39
This was a happy place for us to be in.It also helped them understand why we were doing it more clearly.We’re doing this together to reach more people and plant more churches.So the clarity on that was there and I think that helped the skill is to try and I think you’re probably right.
45:56
I think I was reacting, you know, I saw the diagram with me as the choke point and thought we should do something about that.You know, like so there was a level of reaction, but what we were trying to do was to stay in front of the curve if we could.So not wait until we’d hit a wall.
46:12
And it was, you know, we better think of something, but try and get slightly in front of that curve driven by both vision of what we’re trying to do and then common sense because it’s only wisdom, governance, you know, in terms of how we wanted to run together as a group of churches with that sort of purpose in mind and steering in in front of that.
46:34
So I don’t think we’d lost anyone.I think our pattern has been long standing staff over a long period of time.And most, most of our pastors, you know, we work through that together.
46:51
I don’t jump out of bed and say, guess what?You know, and it sort of gets, yeah, we want to talk it through together because they’re a wise group of people who have a lot to contribute in that space.So I think working it through, but the key thing is with those governance things, trying to work out how to facilitate growth at the coalface and to do for us to do that together effectively.
47:14
But it’s all to do with the making of disciples really, and therefore making sure we don’t govern in such a way that we stop that happening, but actually facilitate it.That’s the driving principle.It’s the way we operate with network resources.How do we pump network resources into the front line to free up people to do gospel ministry?
47:34
That’s the thing we’re trying to do.The board doesn’t control, it facilitates gospel growth.It does that by providing helpful policy and procedures and stuff like that.But it’s aim is to help the gospel go out.And that’s because we’re driven by that concern for planting and reaching people that that binds the board together.
47:57
So we don’t get caught on.We want to make sure that we have, you know, appropriate, you know, governance and compliance stuff.We don’t want that to drive us.We want gospel things to drive.So we keep trying to do that together, like.Chris Braga from Chris Braga from Grace Western Sydney.
48:22
I imagine you inherit A launched multi site.I didn’t necessarily have the right leader or the right model.You’re now done a belly flop.You’re right on the belly.You look back and there’s no diving board to have another go from.Any advice on managing kind of change from there?
48:38
Yeah, you said for me to imagine that.Are you imagining that too or OK, Yeah, yeah.What what I see with with leaders who dive into any of these models, you know, the parachute church planting or or multi site and it it doesn’t just like not go well, but it becomes painful is there’s a reset needed and usually that’s like 3 years.
49:07
That’s my for the leader.I don’t think it necessarily takes that long for the organization, especially as you’ve gotten credibility built up over the years that we can do this.If one doesn’t go well, it doesn’t have the same impact on the organization.You can just sort of do what we said earlier.
49:24
You just say, well, we, we meant to learn from that one, you know, and now we’re going to do better.And that one’s a pretty quick reload.But, but I would say for the leader, be very, very slow to, to jump back in after a belly flop because you can find yourself operating out of desire to not experience pain again, because those things can be really, really hard rather than out of the desire to, to take the risks you need to do any of this well in the 1st place.
49:53
So I, that’s the way I would encourage you to think about it.You can reload quickly as an organization or as a church, but as a leader, take your time.These, these things can be really painful.A lot of Derek and, and Scott’s ministry when I first met with him was, you know, we talked earlier about Mark Driscoll coming and people getting motivated and jumping all in.
50:13
There was a, a real pastoring ministry to young guys who had jumped into that and it didn’t become what they thought it would.And and so I just again, I’m very, very sensitive to that for leaders.Yep, no, I just agree with that.
50:31
I think you do need to the cost of plants failing is both a leadership cost and a people cost.So the people who’ve been on plants that have failed, do you know what I mean?Like that’s it’s a pejorative term, but not continued on.So that the the percentage that stopped, there’s a cost on those people that went and I encountered those people pretty regularly, I think.
50:57
Yeah.And and it’s the same for the leaders as well.So rethinking, yeah, caring for the people, properly resetting is a good thing to do.Yeah, just read a question from someone and I’ll just make a quick comment afterwards, then I’ll throw it to you.
51:13
So the question is, any wisdom or suggestions for a staff team seeking to run the M purpose model across three separate congregations at different times across three different locations, all staff responsible for different ends across all.I’ll just make a quick a quick thing and if you’ve got a, if you’ve got a pen at some point as well.
51:34
I’m just giving my degree of difficulty to the dash they’re tackling there, yeah.For a future thing, someone wants you to draw Scott’s diagram at some point as well.Just on that, can I say it reach Australia?No one should the from the platform, we’ll hopefully be talking about EMS.
51:53
No one will be talking about EMS.Thank God, thank God.We we want to talk about what it looks like to build a mature disciple.EMS for us are are sure they’re a way of talking historically, but we want to talk about what does it look like to build a mature disciple?
52:08
What are the outcomes we’re looking for?Sorry, there’s my just quick caveat.We OK, no problem with the question, but just say if we’re hearing EMS from the front, we don’t want to lead with that.We want to lead with mature disciples.So three locations with EMS staff team wisdom.
52:25
Paul actually did it, so I I would defer to you.Yeah, I’m not sure we have really.But the thought I’d have is if I pull that back and said three congregations, one location, EMS, can you do that with that team?I think you can actually.
52:41
I think that’s certainly possible.So can you do it across three locations, same staff team at different times?And again, I’d say yeah, I think you can.OK.The what tends to happen though is that this is my guess ’cause I don’t think we’ve done this.
52:59
So my guess is that the staff involved will find it hard to bring that level of attention to those 3 locations.So probably the people who are doing those roles need to be very skilled to manage that complexity and to build the level of teams and infrastructure associated with it.
53:19
So a person who does aim in one location, 1 congregation, you get that?OK, yeah, two.Well, I’m stretching a bit further, 30, I’m stretching further.Now some people can do that, some people have the capacity to achieve that, but I don’t think everyone can.
53:37
So it’s a difference.You know, the question I was going to push him with with Wade was when you think about multi site or church planting, is it easy to find more multi site pastors than church planters?I think it is.I do too.So because I think it’s more possible multi, you’re doing the Ms. across multiple, you add extra locations, you reduce your percentage as people who can do that job.
54:01
You know, it goes downhill, you know, so 3 locations average in pasta and three locations maybe 10% of your in pastors can do it at four goes down again.You know, I think it’s that sort of issue that you’re wrestling with to get all-purpose pastors able to do it would be unusual again.
54:25
So you’d you’d have some people just hitting a wall too, and you’d wonder why they weren’t doing such a good job in the third one.They just, it’s just a big ask, I think.Yeah, that’s my thought, but yeah.I I would agree, yeah, I, I don’t have a lot to add, whether it’s Ms. or, or anything else.
54:41
I think, you know, that’s why I wrote 9.7.You, you start adding in, you know, extra times, extra distance, same people, same strategy.You’re stretching those people in strategies and, and that’s what Paul’s been so good at is adjusting those things to keep moving forward and keep being willing to adjust even things like governance in order for the gospel to continue, continue going, going forward.
55:05
I think we’re about to wrap up.All Scott had asked me to draw earlier was a prototypical American city.So that’s what this is.No city looks like this.There’s beaches that you know, keep this from being a circle or mountains.Well, maybe in Kansas it looks like this.
55:23
It’s just flat.But if you imagine a north-south road and an east West road and a a loop around the city in a in a city of of fairly large population and especially in the Bible belt, this is where you’ll find mega churches is out kind of not all the way in the country.
55:43
So out in the country is small country churches and all the way in is small inner city churches.And that’s kind of what we see in our context.But on this suburban ring, that’s where you’d expect to find a mega church.And if you look at the demographics of that area, they’ll be very identifiable.
56:02
We, we have a, you might have separate ways that you can do this too.There are companies in America that spend billions of dollars on demographic research and then they go into certain areas.And so we, we cheat.We just look to see where they ended up.
56:19
And so where we find Target or Chick-fil-A, we find one of those.And if if that church wants to look for a place to launch strong similarly demographically.Now again guys, I’m not getting into values of whether this is a good thing or not a good thing.
56:39
I’m just saying it is a thing that this model will work really, really well if you can find something 20 minutes away that also has a Target and a Chick-fil-A, but that is unreached from a church standpoint.The the actual point I want to make here and Heath, this gets a little bit to what you were asking earlier about an evening congregation trying to reach different groups of people.
57:01
Multi site works best when you’re reproducing something you do really, really well.And don’t be ashamed about that.Like, if you’re really, really good at reaching a certain population of people and that population of people happens to also be present 20 minutes away, then you’ve got a lower complication dive.
57:18
And that’s like a bird on the ground.Y’all with me?Especially for your first one.That’s a great, great thing.But we’re not excused from reaching out to everyone around us too.It’s all nations that are part of the Great Commission.So we want to include that.I think we’re getting close to wrapping up Derek or.
57:35
Yeah, I think we are sorry.Look, I just want to give great thanks for these two men.Well, that was Wade Burnett and I hope that’s got you thinking of the possibilities of multiplication in your particular scenario.If you would like to know more, make sure you jump onto our website, look for the church planting tab and take advantage of everything that’s there, but be in contact.
57:58
We would love to help you.I’m Pete Hughes, chat soon.
