A practical workshop on crafting gatherings so that unbelievers experience the gospel of God’s grace in a rich, meaningful and life-transforming way.
This seminar is for pastors, meeting leaders, song leaders, and those who plan services, to help you make every part of your gatherings an impactful moment for the believer and the unbeliever.
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Liv Chapman Leggett is the Director of Magnification at Vine Church in Surry Hills, having previously worked at St Ebbe’s in Oxford. She is also a Senior Ministry Consultant at Emu Music, and spends her time creating resources for their global training events, working on albums, and supporting their partners.
Toby Neal is the founding pastor of Vine Church (Surry Hills, Sydney) and has a passion for seeing people connected to the life, love, and freedom Jesus offers.
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TRANSCRIPT:
The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
G Day, I’m Pete Hughes and you clicked on the Reach Australia podcast.What we’ve got today is a workshop that was put together by Toby Neil and Lee Chapman.These guys have done such an amazing job of thinking about how to shape the church service and particularly this particular workshop is about how to make it accessible to the outsider, both warm and deep.
0:25
If you’re listening to this, you may find it helpful to watch the video.The video will be available on Spotify and YouTube, but it’s OK just to listen.The slides are in the in the notes down below.Enjoy.Hello, great to be here.
0:43
I’m Toby, pastor at Vine Church in Surrey Hills.We’re a church plant, one of the very first Reach Australia church plants 14 years ago.And this is Liv Hey Lives, our magnification director, being at Vine Church for 2 1/2 years.
1:03
Is your is it working?Testing.Here we go And so we’re going to be doing this seminar loving God, warmth and depth in the gathering with some particular application to how we make our gatherings missional and very compelling for unbelievers who come along to church on Sunday.
1:23
So hopefully that’s why you’re here.What I’d love and the learning outcome today really is we want you to be able to walk away knowing how to lead and craft services where people meet Jesus and they enjoy him.That’s the goal that as we come together for church every Sunday, we it’s an experience of enjoying the Lord Jesus.
1:45
Don’t you want that when you go to church?No, all right, we want that, don’t we?And that is what is going to convince an unbeliever when they see the greatness, glory, majesty and beauty of the Lord Jesus and us enjoying Him, that will have the power to convince them.
2:03
So why don’t you just turn to the person next to you and hear a couple of questions just to get you thinking about this.All right, here it is.Share your name, your role, What aspects of your regular service do you feel connect best with an unbeliever?Is there anything that makes you cringe?
2:20
And is there any specific, anything specific you want out of the seminar today?Have a chat about that for a couple of minutes and then we’ll come back in just a moment.OK, we’ve started just a bit late, so you’re going to have to wrap it up there.
2:39
Just love to hear from three or four people.What are the aspects that you find connects best?Just raise your hand and Joe will run around with a microphone.What are what are the things that connect best?Yeah, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll kick us off.
2:56
Morning tea.Morning tea.OK, fantastic.Connects best.Yes.What else connects best with unbelievers in your gatherings?Anything.Yes.Over there.Just shout it out.Yeah.
3:11
Music.A lot of them do say they get emotional.Yeah.The the.Yeah.The music’s moving people.Yeah.Anything else?Yes.Interviews.
3:28
Real stories.Fantastic.Anything else?I was going to say Q&A after the sermon.Yeah, Q&A.And what are the what are you finding of the cringe moments, the moments that you’re like, oh, I’m so happy I didn’t bring a friend this week.What are those moments, Jack?
3:46
Now you can’t say anything.He goes to my church.There’s nothing.Nothing.What is it, Jack?The sermon on giving.The sermon on giving.OK, there we go.Thanks mate.I think I pretty, I think I give a pretty good giving sermon actually.
4:04
I’m not believing about the same right For a number, yeah.Still, anyway, yes.We were talking about announcements.Announcements.What about them?The length the topic.Length topic.Relevance The.
4:21
Whole thing Kill.Yeah.Anything else?Yep.Up the back, Henry when?Like.The D team is on for music.D team, Yeah, yeah.Would I?Want my friend to be there that week?
4:40
Yeah, yeah, yeah.The quality of the musicians.Yeah, yeah.I was going to say like pregnant pauses where it takes a long time for something between things happening.Great.Excellent.Yeah, OK, lots of great stuff there.Hopefully we’ll hit some of these things.
4:57
We’re going to start, first of all, just by thinking briefly about the purpose of our gatherings.And as we talk about, you know, what are we trying to achieve in our gatherings, it’s helpful to start off by saying the gathering in itself is God’s goal.It’s not like the a gathering is a hammer trying to achieve something else.
5:15
But God has done the miracle of saving wayward, godless idolaters and gathering them to His Son, so that they gather as a family each week around His Word to have Him lead them, shepherd them, and they praise Him.
5:32
That in itself is an absolute miracle.So before we think about using church for any other purpose, the purpose of church is just to exist, actually, that God has done the miracle of gathering you to His Son and he’s gathered a bunch of you together.
5:49
And the very fact that church exists and people are getting together to listen to God’s Word and love one another, that in itself is the miracle.That is the purpose of the church.And it’s not like we’re trying to do something else, but a number of things happen within the gathering, and Liv’s gonna kick us off by thinking about, well, what is actually happening as we do this thing called church.
6:13
If you’ve got your Bibles, please turn to Colossians 3.I’ll read for us Colossians 3 from verse 15.And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body.
6:30
And be thankful that the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs with thankfulness in your hearts to God.And whatever you do in Word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
6:50
When we gather, we’re often tempted to think that we.Yeah, we’re there for each other.Yeah, we’re there to to give glory to God, to sing praises to him.It’s it’s our opportunity to be gathered as we, yeah, give him what he is owed.
7:05
And while that is all true and wonderful and glorious, there’s something amazing happening when we gather, which is that even before we start speaking the word to one another and singing to God, praying to him, God is gathering us and it’s his gift to us.
7:23
The church is His gift to us because as we meet, He is giving us the word of Christ, his Holy Spirit, His Son, in the gathering.That is his gift to us as we gather together.
7:38
Primarily, it’s actually God’s initiation, His invitation, and His gift to us with that same word that He gives to us by the power of His Holy Spirit.We then teach and admonish, encourage with all wisdom that same word to one another.
7:54
And then with that word we respond to God with prayer, praise, and Thanksgiving.This is the picture that we see in Colossians and elsewhere in the New Testament.It’s not so much horizontal and vertical.They’re probably phrases we’ve heard a lot.Primarily and first and foremost, it’s God’s gift to us.
8:12
The Church is His gift to us as He gives us His Word, delivered and implanted onto our hearts by the power of the Holy Spirit.That is what’s happening as we meet.But then there’s something else happening as we meet, which is that it’s not just in the context of us Christians meeting.
8:34
Others are unlooking Toby.Yes.So if you turn over to 1 Corinthians 14, verse 23, if you turn quickly, this is what we read there.If the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say you are out of your mind?
8:52
And so if you’re if everyone’s speaking in, no one can understand what’s going on.No one understands that Jesus is what we’re here for.You’re just a bunch of crazy people.But verse 24, if an unbeliever and inquire comes in while everyone is prophesying, and I take it the prophecy is declaring the wonders of God.
9:10
That’s what’s happening on at Pentecost when they’re prophesying, people are hearing the wonders of God spoken in their very languages.So they’re prophesying, they’re hearing the one, everyone declaring the wonders of God.When that’s happening in the gathering, what happens to the unbeliever who comes along?
9:27
1 Corinthians 14 they’re convicted of sin, brought under judgment by all as the secrets of their heart are laid bare so that they will fall down and worship God, explaining God really is among you.And so notice where that’s happening.
9:45
Paul’s not talking about a special evangelistic church service where that happens.He’s talking about as Christians get together every week and they’re hearing the word of Christ, they’re speaking the word of Christ to one another, and they’re praising God for what they’re hearing in the word of Christ.
10:00
And as that’s happening, we’re prophesying, encouraging, teaching it, admonishing, building one another up in the faith.As that’s happening, that has the power to convert an unbeliever who comes in to church.So the key to having services where unbelievers are coming in and are being convinced, wow, God really is among this group of people.
10:25
It’s not to give away cars and do fancy stuff.It’s not even to have the A-Team on music.It’s actually to have a group of people talking about the Lord Jesus Christ together, hearing His word as it applies to them, encouraging one another with what we’re hearing about Lord Jesus, and singing with grateful hearts back to Him.
10:46
When that’s happening, the peace of Christ is ruling in our hearts.The peace of Christ is setting the agenda among us.The Lord Jesus is drawing near and he is shepherding his sheep, is calling a sheep by name.
11:03
He’s guiding us, encouraging us, building us up together as we are doing that to one another.And when that happens, an unbeliever, that’s what has the power, according to One Corinthians 14, to convince them to bow the knee to Jesus.
11:18
And that’s just such good news, isn’t it?Because often we think, oh God, we need something more, something extra, something big and exciting and wonderful to attract and convince and convert unbelievers.And God’s like is the church.That’s where it starts.
11:33
That’s where it ends.The church is the means by which people are saved.And that is what a comfort we don’t need a silver bullet to.Yeah, something different than the wonder of the local church.So then if you’re to do that Part 2, then you need to embed a gospel culture in your church.
11:54
Now, what is culture?What is culture?We’re going to come to this in a second, but culture is the way we do things.It’s the vibe, it’s the tangible and intangible experience of what you really love and value.So if I came to your church, what would be absolutely obvious to me of what you really value, you really love.
12:18
And so the culture is, it’s the aroma, it’s the tone, it’s the language, it’s the atmosphere, it’s the feel of your gathering and question for you with the person next to you.What do you think is the defining feature or characteristic of your church culture?
12:36
When an unbelieving visitor walks in, what is the predominant vibe?Have a quick chat about that.Picture the scene with me.A non Christian visitor walks into your church.They push open the front doors and maybe they’re welcomed in.
12:53
They walk in a little hesitantly.They’re immediately aware that they’re stepping into someone else’s world, a world they maybe don’t yet understand.The lighting, the music, the conversations, people who look like they know each other, greeting each other, it all feels unfamiliar.
13:10
They scan the room and they’re thinking, where should I sit?Will anyone talk to me?Am I dressed OK?As the service begins, they may be struck by how much everyone else seems to know what to do.They know what’s going on.They know when to stand, sing, sit, pray, listen.
13:27
It’s all in rhythm, like a dance.But for them, it’s all new.And they might be trying to follow along, but they’re also asking themselves what’s going on?What are these words mean?Who is this Jesus they’re singing about?Do I belong here?Emotionally, they might be anywhere from curious to cautious, moved to mildly resistant.
13:48
If they’re open, they might find something deeply compelling, a peace, a warmth, a joy that they can’t quite explain but they’re witnessing in the gathering.If they’re skeptical, they may be looking for cracks in the surface, something to confirm their doubts.
14:04
The only experience of church might be a grandfather’s funeral, a school Chapel service, a youth group they visited one time, a cousin’s wedding.They might be bringing in all kinds of religious baggage, or none at all.Either way, they’re noticing everything.The welcome, the tone of the language, the way people speak and sing, the sense of sincerity or lack of it.
14:26
The moments that feel human, the ones that feel rehearsed, and whether anything seems to speak to them.They’re wondering, is this real?Are these people for real?Is God real?And if so, is any of this for me now in this room?
14:44
We’re doctrine people, aren’t we?We love doctrine and our doctrine might be spot on.Every week we’re sharp on what the gospel is.We’re undeserving sinners.We’re rebels against God.We’re under his wrath, but he sends the Lord Jesus who lives, dies, rises against that We might have our sins forgiven, life eternal.
15:03
We love the gospel, Amen.But the truth is that that visitor who’s walked into your doors, they might not be listening to very much at all, but believe me, they will be seeing and feeling everything.
15:20
So can we make our doctrine culture sorry our our gospel doctrine felt and seen.Yes, in gospel culture, what is the vibe, the feel, the aroma of our gathering?
15:36
What’s the language, the tone, the atmosphere?Do I want them to think, oh, what a cool, edgy inner city church that you know has good coffee after the service?No, I don’t want that to be the vibe they’re getting.I want them to be seeing and feeling what we preach, pray, sing, read.
15:54
A gospel culture is where the grace of God saturates everything, where it saturates the vibe, the feel, the values, the priorities, the posture of the church.It’s a culture of honesty, freedom, gentleness, joy, humility, cheerfulness, forgiveness, generosity.
16:11
It’s the doctrine that we see and feel.But why does this matter?Why must we preach gospel doctrine and embody gospel culture simultaneously?Because it is possible to preach the gospel while at the same time at worst utterly deny the gospel by ugly anti gospel culture and at best undermine our doctrine by displaying A joyless, cold, shallow gathering.
16:41
So we might be preaching the gospel but at the same time denying it or undermining it by the gospel culture.Listen to how Ray Ortland describes a gospel culture.I just love this quote, he says.
16:57
How wonderful it is to come every Sunday into a liberating church.All week long we swim in an ocean of judgement and negative scrutiny.We constantly have to comply with the demands of a touchy world and we never measure up.Then on Sunday we walk into a new kind of community where we discover an environment of grace in Christ alone.
17:21
It is so refreshing.Sinners like us can breathe again.It’s as if God simply changes everyone’s topic of conversation from what’s wrong with us, which is plenty, to what’s right with Christ, which is endless.He replaces our negativity, finger pointing, and self hatred with the good news of His grace for the undeserving.
17:40
Who couldn’t come alive in a community that’s constantly inhaling that heavenly atmosphere.Don’t we want our churches to be like that?Isn’t that the air we want visitors to be breathing?But it’s really hard to change church culture, isn’t it?
17:57
And there are so many things that feed into shaping and forming and changing a culture.At Vine Church, we have been using a framework that helps us to evaluate how effective we’re being at embedding that gospel culture, that reinforces, that adorns, that affirms our gospel doctrine.
18:20
And I’m going to hand over to Toby to talk about that now.Thanks, Liv.Yeah, just notice even the way Ray Altland talks about gospel culture there, that even the language, don’t we want to be a part of a church where we’re inhaling, you know, that the language he used, there’s a tone to his language.
18:40
He’s not just he is talking about we’re we’re sinners saved by grace, great gospel doctrine.But the way he speaks about that, it has a tone and a Rome or an atmosphere that it’s creating.As we hear that, it’s like it’s so refreshing, he says, to walk into a church like that.
18:56
Do you notice that?So that’s what we’re going to talk about.For us, we use the language of deep and warm to try and embed gospel culture into our into our life together.And so depth has to do depth and warmth.
19:12
Depth has to do with it’s, it’s God, his word, the truth, the gospel.We don’t want to be light and superficial.We want the depth of faith and hope and love.We want biblical depth.We don’t want to be shallow people, do we?So that’s what depth is.
19:27
Warmth is.We want to be people who treat people with the grace that we’ve received about being personal, relational, emotionally intelligent, connected, compassionate for bearing, patient, honoring others above ourselves.
19:43
And so as you think about church life, you want to be going for both of these at the same time.Francis Schaefer famously said that our relationship with each other is the criterion the world uses to judge whether our message is truthful.
20:00
He says the Christian community is the final apologetic.So as non Christians coming to your church, they’re judging your message, not just on the on the merits of the message.But they’re saying, is this message embedded?Do they actually live it out together?
20:16
Like we’re talking about the love and grace of God, that God treats bad people very, very well.Do they treat bad people very, very well?Or is this group of people, a group of people who keep trying to perform how respectable they are?And actually, it’s pretty unclear that this is a group of sinners saved by God’s grace.
20:35
Incredibly thankful for that.Yeah.And so warmth has a very powerful impact on our missional effectiveness.Now, what I notice is there tends to be deep churches and warm churches.A Church of no depth, no warmth.
20:51
There’s absolutely no life.We know that.But if you go to depth, only what you end up with is a cold clinical theological treatise.You know, it’s all true, but it’s not very appetizing.It’s just heavy.
21:06
And if, you know, I’m, I’m an Anglican, that’s what we’re known for being true, deep but not very warm.But then you can get warm only churches lacking depth.And it tends to be a peppy, superficial cheerleadery experience.And I know you’re thinking that’s not me, but it might be you actually, because I think we love to be a group of people that are, you know, always thankful and joyful at all times.
21:32
I often notice that that sometimes you’ll have a song that’s very moving, that’s very serious, very weighty and up.We’ll pop the service later and they’ll say grab a seat guys, you know, and they’ll move straight on to the next thing.
21:47
Now what’s happening there, They’re they’re not paying attention to what God is doing among us in this moment.Warmth is having the emotional intelligence to go.We’ve just been beholding the glory of God and, and we’re singing about that and our hearts are gripped by that.
22:07
And therefore to move very quickly and just go grab a seat.Hey, we got morning tea afterwards coming to join us.Like you’re not paying attention to the, the relational dynamics in the room at that moment.And you know, it’d be wrong for us to think, ah, that’s the charismatics who are just the warm only people.
22:23
No, I think it’s often us that we’re not attentive to what’s going on, what this moment in church is.And so you got to pay attention.What’s the emotional weight of each moment in church and are you responding appropriately to that emotional moment?
22:41
That’s what the warmth is.And So what we’re after is warmth and depth, which is warm hearted, spirit filled, God centered encouragement.Now how do you achieve that?Well, to go deep, here are a couple of questions which we ask.One, what is God doing in this moment?
22:59
Like is he convicting us?Is he comforting us like is are we being rebuked for, you know, what was happening down in the services, Like we are being shaken, right.Hearing about the fearsome judgement to come?
23:16
We’re trembling, all right?That’s what God’s doing in that moment.And you’re going to be paying attention to.OK, that our response is to tremble with fear before the coming judgement of God and to flee to his grace.Yeah.How is his grace being communicated to us in this moment?
23:35
These grace is always being communicated.So say you’re interviewing someone who’s going through suffering.You can hear a lot about their suffering, but you want to you want to go a step further than that and you want to hear how is as bad as this situation is, how is your shepherd taking care of you in this moment?
23:55
So let’s go deep.And you want to dig for the gospel moment wherever you’re at in the church service, like what is the gospel moment?What’s being demanded of us in this moment?So that’s that.And your job is not to be a teacher.
24:12
I think as we think about services and leading services, we, and I, by that I mean us Reformed evangelicals.I’m an Anglican, so this is me that we, we tend to think everything can be solved by just hitting the mind.
24:27
And actually what we want to encourage you today is hit the mind.Like, come to my church.I preach for too long.I love speaking to the mind, but we’ve also got to pay attention to what are people feeling, what’s the experience?And I think a good meeting leader is not someone who’s, and Liv’s going to go into this in a second.
24:48
They’re not they’re not telling you what’s coming next.That’s not their job.They are modelling the appropriate response to what is happening moment by moment.So you know, we start the service and it’s just like, wow, what a privilege that God has gathered us this morning that we are recipients of his grace.
25:09
He out there judgement in here.We know we haven’t lived up to our own standards, let alone gods.And God is generous towards us.He’s gracious toward.Isn’t it great to be together today?You know, so that’s what’s demanded because people come to church from all different circumstances and they’re wondering where is God in this?
25:28
So what do you need to do at the start of church?Need to remind people of God’s grace.That’s what you so wherever you’re at in church, what’s the gospel moment?But don’t be a teacher.Model the appropriate response and enjoy Jesus in that moment.So that’s the depth moment.
25:45
The warmth aspect is how are you responding?How are we responding in this moment?So if we’ve just been clobbered over the head by an Andrew heard sermon on the judgement to come like we are trembling and therefore how are you going to get up after that?
26:03
You know how what what songs are we going to choose?And the band did a great job to bangers on the holiness of God there, right.So very, very helpful.And I, I, we don’t want you to hear that warmth equals happy, joyful, excitable energy.Warmth means emotional intelligence for what’s appropriate in bringing about a godly God, honoring heart response in his people.
26:26
So in that example, I thought Trevor did a great job at reading the room and in an emotionally intelligent way, with thoughtful song selection helping us to respond with right emotion.Yeah, yeah, yeah.Another example of that is like sometimes I’ve seen sometimes people interviewing people and the person sharing, they’re bleeding all over us telling about their cancer story.
26:51
And the person interviewing them is sitting all the way over here and they’re looking down at their notes for the next question.They’re not even listening, right?And they’re bleeding all over us, this person sharing their hearts with us.But this person’s, you know, what am I going to do next?And then, and then they’ll, they’ll share and then like next question and I’ll just repeat the next question.
27:12
They’re not engaging with the person.So what is, how are we responding in the moment?Secondly, what are we doing in this, the moment?So he going to do this like when we call people to the to the stage and someone mentioned this, you know, those awkward moments in church where the transitions just aren’t right.
27:33
And when say I’m like Matt Straw, come on down, right?And he stands up and he comes on down and we’re all silent.You know, what does that say to Matt?If he was coming down?It says to him, not really that excited to hear this guy.
27:51
Well, what would it say if you know, not that we applaud him, but that we welcome him up with that model gospel culture?Would that say we honor this guy?We love this guy.We’re really excited to hear this guy come and share something in a moment.
28:06
So you got to pay attention to things like that.What are you doing in every moment?And is it, what are we doing?And is it expressing the culture that the gospel would create?Someone’s coming up to the stage.We love that they’re coming up and sharing.So how do you express that We, we put our hands together.
28:23
You could do something else, but, you know, and then dig for the human moment.So again, so interviews are a good example of this.Like, what is it that makes this person not generic Christian?
28:40
But if I’m hearing a testimony and I’m not, I don’t want just, I realized I was a Sinner going to hell and I needed Jesus to save me.Yeah.OK, good.But like, how did they realize that?What, what, what were the circumstances in their life that gave rise to that?So dig for the human moment and not don’t be a cheerleader.
28:58
This is Liv’s thing earlier.We’re not talking about warmth equals happy, clappy, real authentic is what we’re talking about here.All righty now, why is why will this be missional?Well, it’s because we want people to engage with the true Jesus and we want people to experience the life, love, freedom that he offers.
29:20
And as we experience Jesus in his fullness, his beauty is what and as as we are engaging with him and as we watch others pressing into Jesus, trusting him even in difficult circumstances or that coming to him, we’re enjoying that.
29:36
And that if an unbeliever comes in, we’ll be very, very, very compelling.I want to read a diary entry from a girl that became a Christian at our church a couple of years ago.For those at church with us, Eileen, this is her.And when she first started coming to church, this is what she sent.
29:54
This is what she said.She said, I went to church again yesterday evening and the key message for me was this.We’re not alone.We’re in partnership with God.Joy doesn’t depend on your individual circumstances, it’s found in God.She says despite these hopeful messages.
30:12
I was sad, almost cried, perhaps because I found it so beautiful that everyone there believes in God and has found the meaning of life.I wanted the peace that the Christians in the room had.Now, isn’t that fast?
30:27
So this was from her journal entry five years ago.Isn’t it interesting?She’s not just commenting on what she heard in the sermon.She she’s hearing the stuff and she’s making sense of that in the context of looking around at everyone else, how they’re engaging with it.And that had the power to convince her to put a trust in Jesus.
30:47
So what I want you to do next is have a conversation with the person next to you is does warmth or depth come more naturally to you?And then what aspects of your church services might need more depth or more warmth?Got a couple of minutes to have a quick chat.
31:15
All right now, I asked Liv to earlier today.Am I?Am I which which am I worse at?Warmth or depth?I don’t want to puff Toby up too much, but he’s actually incredibly deep and warm.
31:37
Aw, thank you.But, but, but Toby, you do lose a bit of warmth when you’re anxious.And I look up at you preaching.I’m often in the front row because I just hopped down from music and I’m watching you preach, and I can see you’re anxious.
31:55
And I think Toby is not enjoying this, and I don’t think he’s enjoying Jesus in this moment either.And I think just generally, I think you lose a bit of, like, congregational warmth when you preach too long.True.
32:11
Yeah.So I go too deep, too deep.Too deep and you therefore lose warmth.That’s that’s my honest feedback.Yeah, she gives me this every Tuesday morning, guys.What about me?Liv, if you haven’t already noticed, is is is incredibly gifted at everything she does and she she is so polished, but that sometimes lacks warmth because it’s not human to be that polished all the time.
32:44
She is so good.Everything she does, it’s so good, but I have to regularly remind her that sometimes making mistakes actually builds culture rather than taking it down.Sometimes when I come to Toby before something and I say to him like, oh, I’m so, so anxious about this, he’ll say I love it when you’re anxious.
33:12
Of like she’s human and that’s part of what warmth is.It’s like can is church a place where you can be human or and when you’re up on stage, can you actually be human in front of others?Or are you guardic, so guarded, protective, trying to put on a face that you, you are the victorious Christian.
33:32
Nothing goes wrong in your life.Well, you don’t believe the gospel if that’s the case, because the gospel is I’m a Sinner in need of God’s grace.I’m a sufferer, dependent upon him daily for his mercy and kindness to me.And so if we’re never talking about our struggles, our our, our, our anxieties, if we’re not transparent on our need for Jesus, then we are denying the gospel of God’s grace.
33:59
And so that’s why I love it when live proves to be human.And so, yeah, So there’s some things you got to pay attention to that.Like, what are you?Are you very guarded?Very.You got all the right doctrine, But, you know, so you might be dead.You need to find ways of warming up what you say in some of you, you’re incredibly warm, but you lack depth and you need to get more deep.
34:20
And one of the solutions we found for meeting leaders there, because we tend to see meeting leaders being quite polar on that.We’ve started teaming up quite warm meeting leaders with quite deep meeting leaders because you get a deep meeting leader and it’s just like so boring.
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But then you get a warm meeting leader up and they’re just like going off here and there and we know them.John O Baker, right?John O is the loveliest guy at our church, but he’ll go off on tangents all over the place.But team him up with a Viana or his wife Sandra.They’ll keep him on track, but he’ll be, he’ll bleed a little bit on us, which will be very authentic and real and encouraging, but they’ll keep him on track.
35:02
So there’s, there’s a way we, you know, pay attention to warm and deep people, try and team them up and you can get the best, best of both worlds.But we’re going to do some more how to’s now.And I think just on that, pay attention to yourself for the first, I don’t know, maybe three years of song leading coming out of high school and into uni.
35:21
I, I saw AI saw a video of myself song leading.And I honestly, it was soul destroying for me because I thought I had never seen anyone look so miserable when they sang.So for years I wrote at the top of my sheet, musical service sheet or whatever it was, smile.
35:36
I had to write it in front of me so that every time I saw it, I remembered to smile.Because smiling is just instantly warm when we sing and we speak.We know that in our interactions, smiling, smiling is a, is a big thing, especially for singers.
35:52
We often have quite concentrating severe singing faces.So I mean, that’s a bit of my story.In order to increase warmth for myself, I just had to write it on a piece of paper to smile.We’ve just picked a few elements that hopefully we’ll all have in our church service to think about.
36:10
How do we add depth and warmth into these elements and how does it add mission heat?How is it impactful and confronting for an unbelievable to see and taste and feel and vibe the gospel culture in the room?
36:29
How do we make our welcome or our call to worship warm?As I’ve said, smile, smiling, open body posture, voice projected arms open eyes up.Memorize your first line or whatever half you have to do so that you’re not looking down when you welcome people or start.
36:50
As you invite people into your home and you open the front door, you don’t need to look at your notes to welcome people into your own home.You make eye contact with them, you smile.You have open body language.We can be doing the same at church.It’s lovely to call out people by name, to show people that they’re known here, that they’re loved here, and it’s good to show an awareness of who might be in the room and make them feel welcome, especially visitors.
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How do we make it deep?We want to announce God’s good news for bad people.We want to remind people what kind of God they’re coming before.Holy and majestic God, yes, but also someone who is merciful and gracious and wants to meet with us, in fact has gathered us Himself, has invited us, has initiated that meeting.
37:42
We want to speak to the heart.I find that before we speak to each other in song, we want to hear from God.So start with Scripture.Make it deep.Don’t go through the order of the service.Rather, as service leaders, we want to make sense of the order of service.
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We’re not a bus conductor telling people what the stops are.We’re there to encourage and to exhort, to move and to model the appropriate response to God as we gather with his people, certainly give instructions where needed to stand, to sit.
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Let’s pray those things actually build trust between US and the congregation.But we don’t need to go through the order of service.And in order to bring depth and warmth together for something like meeting leading or service leading, preparation is needed and often a lot of preparation.
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And that’s because if we don’t do our preparation, we tend to be shallow, too warm and too shallow and we we skip off or we would tend to be too deep and attached to our attached to our notes and instantly we lose warmth when we’re looking down South.
38:50
Preparation is, is really key.Got a couple of examples here.The first is in that straw.Hope you don’t mind us showing this.Here we go.Well, welcome to Vine Church.Can we just, do you want to just give it up for the parents who are here with their kids early to church, Isn’t that amazing?
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I think well done.The fact you’re here, let alone you’re early, that’s amazing.So thankful to have you here today at Vine Church.Whether you’re new, whether you’re visiting, whether you’re online, whether you’re regular.So thankful to be together.Can I ask you to stand as I call us to worship with a verse from the Bible?
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I wonder if you’ve ever felt like a runaway child with God, maybe for big reasons, small reasons.You just feel like you’re far from him.You’ve run away.Jesus tells a story about someone who was like that, and at that point he says the child got up and he went to his father.
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But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him.He ran to his son, threw his arms around him, and kissed him.That is your God to you.
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So wherever you’re at this morning, we’re going to start right there, remembering that our God comes to us and we’re going to sing.Who am I that the highest king would welcome me?Let’s sing.So good, Matt.I love how warm he is, how open he is.
40:25
He’s reached for the human moment there and he’s told us who God is to us.He’s lifted our eyes to our great God.He’s actually come near.That is your God.You love that line.And there are lots of things about, you know, his posture, holding, holding the Bible as you read, inviting us to stand.
40:45
Warmth, depth, beautiful.Next.Can the other one there is my my sister-in-law went through a divorce and what her experience was after the divorce, she was visiting churches and she just felt like every church she’d walk in, she’d be reminded that she is a Sinner and and that’s, you know, that’s right.
41:07
We pray a prayer of confession every week at church, but that where a Sinner is not the headline of the gospel, Like, yes, it’s part of the gospel, but the headline is you’re a Sinner, but you are saved by God’s grace.And the question is, what are we majoring on?
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And as people come to church, particularly unbelievers, what are we majoring on?Like are they hearing loud and clear that their God has his arms wide open for them?We don’t want to be shallow and avoid sin, but you just what’s the balance here?
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And what’s the proportion that we’re giving to these doctrines?And people better, better hear the love and grace of God, his patience and his arms.And that’s what Matt does so well in that put.Another example.Well, good morning and welcome to Vine Church.
41:57
It’s great.It’s so good to gather together as God’s people.Can I invite you to stand as we begin, if you are able, And we’re going to begin by hearing from God, setting our minds and our hearts on Him as we worship Him this morning in Revelation chapter 5, Revelation John has a vision, and this is what he sees in heaven.
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This is what is happening in heaven.Revelation 5, verse 11.Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels numbering thousands upon thousands, and 10,000 * 10,000 they encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders.In a loud voice they were saying, worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise.
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We have an opportunity this morning to join in that great song, that heavenly song that is happening now.And we worship Jesus not just because he died for us, because He is risen, He ascended, and He is ruling on the throne of the universe.Let’s sing together now.
43:03
I think that’s another great welcome and call to worship.I’m biased that he’s my husband, but what I love about Jaunty’s welcome here is again, it’s so warm.And what does that involve?Well, for Jaunty he’s he’s smiling at us.He’s open.He’s got a Bible in his hand, but his body posture is open.
43:21
He’s reading with intonation and poetry and depth.He really believes this vision of John’s from Revelation.And he’s transcendent.And God would, isn’t he?He’s drawing our eyes to that heavenly throne, but he hasn’t weighed us down with the depth of it.
43:39
He’s actually drawn us up with the warmth and with that God would focus.So both great examples.Another thing which really adds mission heat and can often lack lack depth and warmth in our services is our singing.
44:02
Some of us were talking about kind of you know, your team day or long pauses or awkward song leading nervous song leader nervous congregation right.I don’t think it’s too much of A stretch to see that in one Corinthians 14 Toby was talking about everyone prophesying everyone declaring the greatness of God the gospel to one another.
44:25
Singing is an opportunity in the service when we really do declare the gospel to one another, when we all join in in one voice where the whole room is singing rich gospel truth with sincerity, with joy, with conviction.It’s a kind of proclamation, isn’t it?
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As we sing for someone, you’re exploring faith that can be incredibly powerful, Paul describes in One Corinthians.It lays their heart bare when they hear everyone in the room prophesying.And in the same way, it can draw and pull at people’s hearts to hear the gospel of Christ sung and to see a room of people singing with conviction and with joy.
45:10
Singing plays a big part in expressing both our doctrine with the words that we sing and in displaying our gospel culture.Getting gospel doctrine in our songs right is a bit easier, isn’t it?It’s, it’s mostly about song choice and song introduction.
45:27
It’s it’s easier than getting our gospel culture right when we sing.It’s hard to change a singing culture in our church.We might have excellent musicality and song leading from the platform, but if we have lackluster, joyless, half hearted singing in the congregation, that’s going to speak volumes to a visitor in the room or an unbeliever.
45:50
I’ve got lots to say on singing if you’re interested, if that’s a key area of concern for you, song selection or growing a singing culture in a church, ask some questions in Q&A.But we’re going to move on to church news or announcements, notices, whatever you call.
46:07
I think this is probably my little pet peeve, I guess, is that the right word?Because I’ve just seen so many announcements done badly over the time and so many wasted opportunities.Because I really think that announcements, church news, notices, whatever you want.
46:24
We have an opportunity in those 3567 minutes to show our church what to value and to show non Christians what it is that we value.If our notices are just information, communication, then we’ve lost a massive moment to shape the Christians in the room and to showcase to the non Christians how amazing Jesus is and a life that he’s called us to.
46:50
So a couple of examples of how we might do this.Say we’re running a seeker event.One way that you can not build gospel culture and not have depth or warmth is to lead with details by saying we’re running a live course coming up on the 7th of June.
47:08
Yeah, I think it’s the 7th June is that, Yes, it’s on the screen behind me.We’re going to have great food, good talk.You should come.I’ve signed up.You should, You should come as well.Instead, we have an opportunity to shape the values and to actually compel people to want to come.
47:25
If you’re exploring things of God, you are so welcome at an upcoming event we’ve got on the 7th of June.It’s a relaxed evening over dinner where you won’t be asked to sing, to pray, to read.We just want you to come either to listen, to ask your questions.
47:41
You are so welcome.There’s more information on the link on the screen behind me.We want to compel people that this event is for them and not just give them details up front.So the key thing there is the first one is just details on the screen time date I’m going you should come.
48:00
Second one is she’s leading with the benefit to the person you exploring.Do you have questions?Do you have questions?Yeah, you got yeah, you.So immediately you’re compelling them, you’re like, well, you have questions.I’m here to help you with that rather than going here’s just information.
48:15
I guess you’ve got to work out whether it’s for you, but it’s like trying.So whenever you’re our, our announcements need to be compelling for them, not about what we need them to do, but it’s on about it’s going to help them.
48:31
And and as we do that, it’s visionary because you’re like, hey, you know, you’re exploring things of faith.Your question.We want to help with that.Come along, you know.Yeah.And the second category is when we might be giving an announcement for our church family.Well, what what picture of the Christian life can we show for the non Christians in the room?
48:50
We’ve got a men’s breakfast on Saturday coming up and I decided to give that announcement a couple of weeks ago and I was service leading with a guy called Jordy.We had a Mother’s Day announcement to make, an immense breakfast announcement to make.And I thought, you know what, I would love to give that announcement because I have an opportunity to shape culture and share value to the church family in this moment by saying something like here, Vine Church, we really want to see the faith and friendship of the guys in our church flourish.
49:21
And so we’ve got a men’s breakfast next Saturday, 7:00 AM.It’s early and that means I’m going to be home alone with Hugo so that jaunty is freed up to go and be encouraged and to courage the the other guys going details on the screen behind me.
49:37
So in that moment I have, I have told the church what to value, which is we value the guys in our church.We want to see them flourish in their faith and in their friendship.That’s really important to us.It’s important to our church.It’s important for our families.It’s important for society.
49:53
It’s something that we value.So I’ve taken the opportunity to shape the values of my church, but I’ve I’ve also invited an A non believer to listen in and to see what it is that we value as Christians.So I’m passionate about making notices good because I think there’s such an important gospel culture piece because of the vision and values that we can be communicating in that moment.
50:18
Bible reading and prayer.We all have these moments in our service and they have incredible mission impact because they carry a lot of cultural baggage.Visitors might have never read the Bible, or they might be bringing lots of preformed thoughts about how the Bible is a homophobic, sexist, righteous, racist, pro slavery, ancient book with no relevance to modern life.
50:41
And often a bad introduction and bad reading can sometimes confirm a few of those things.So how do we build warmth and depth into these elements with our laypeople?How do we train them and coach them well?We want them to introduce themselves warmly to engage with what’s happened or what’s about to happen and to go deep for when I first came on staff, I really wanted to capture and to and to shape the value of these two moments in our church life.
51:10
So I literally wrote it into the run sheet just before the Bible reading.Hi, my name is today we’re going to read from.And then the third bullet point was we’re going to hear God speak to us through his word.And honestly, for the first few months, it was this, Hi, my name is Liv.
51:28
We’re going to read from John 3.God’s going to speak to us through his word now.And I didn’t even care because the depth came across right.God’s going to speak to us.But then something really amazing happened as as our lay teams of Barbara readers and prayers started to pick up God’s about to speak to us through his word or we’re about to bring our requests before our loving God, who he is and loves to answer.
51:54
Things started changing and I’ve got a couple of.Well, before we go there, so just notice, notice what Liv’s saying there, which is because I think we often do this and we’re like, we’ll over explain the Bible.Christians believe the Bible’s the word of God that he wrote it, you know, but notice the way she’s introduced that it’s it is she is saying that, but she’s responding to that.
52:14
It’s like we are going to hear God speak to us.It’s like we’re responding with joy.So that’s the key thing.Similar with prayer, and you’re going to introduce prayer and 2nd, but we’re going to watch some examples.And the reason we’ve chosen these examples is not because they’re perfect.
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Actually, they’re very average people who actually a little bit stiff up front, but notice the way they say some things which make them incredibly warm.Yeah, so here we’ve got a Barber reading intro.Good morning, Vine Church.
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Thank you, Philly.That was really inspiring.My name is Marcia Swenson.I’m going to read the Bible for you today.If you’d like to follow along, it’s Matthew 14, verses 22 to 36.This is an excellent story, one of my son’s favourites, where Jesus walks on water.
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I love that example because she’s engaged with what’s just happened.We had an interview with one of our mission partners and all she says is thank you, Philly.That was really inspiring, perfect because she’s acknowledged what’s happened and then she begins Paul.She’s she’s a bit formal, yeah, I would say.
53:31
But then.But then she says this is an excellent story, one of my son’s favorites.That’s a human moment.Yeah, if you brought your non Christian friend along, how encouraged would you have been in that moment to hear someone in your church, just a normal person, talk about the Bible?
53:47
Like it’s this incredible story that changes our lives that she reads to her son.So really lovely moment of warmth there.The next example we’ve got is of a guy called Peter in our church.He is a very, very intelligent man.
54:05
Professor of theoretical chemistry.Yeah.At Sydney University.Yeah, very deep, very deep.And he, he got up during a service.He he’s on a Barber reading and prayer roster and he didn’t, we didn’t ask him to do this, but I guess over time the gospel culture has become a a piece for our teams.
54:31
And he, he, if you asked him, he’s, he’s a deep guy, right?But notice the warmth that he brings to this moment.Morning everyone.My name is Peter Gill and I I’m a scientist and I used to be an atheist, but I’ve been coming here to Vine since 2019.
54:50
I’m starting to feel like an old timer now and I I think that one of the best possible choices I could have for an epitaph on my gravestone.Some of the words that we sang a few minutes ago.I once was lost, but now I’m found was blind.
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But now I see.I want to lead us now in prayer for people who are lost, people who don’t know the Jesus that we’ve been hearing about.And I hope that you’ll join me in this prayer.Beautiful depth and beautiful warmth.
55:22
So compelling for a newcomer walking in.So just a few things to get get you thinking about how to inject depth and warmth into the service elements.All right.We’re going to try and move a bit quicker Part 5 mission particularities.We’ve just tried to like that’s all of that stuff is we would be doing that on a Reach Australia conference, whether it’s mission focused or not.
55:45
That’s just in order for me to enjoy church, I need all that right in order for you to enjoy Jesus.That’s what we’re aiming for.But all of it is relevant to mission.If we’re doing that, it will be compelling.But got a bunch of other mission particularities and here we go.
56:01
First thing is you need to speak as though unbelievers are in the room.You need to welcome them, express delight that they’re there, speak in a way that they realize they’re not the only person exploring.So you need to normalize with, you know, the heaps of people here exploring the things of Jesus.
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So they’re not sitting there going, this is so weird.I’m the only one here.I don’t know anyone else here, you know, should I be here?Like, I don’t believe this stuff.Oh, the Lord’s Supper, is that about to happen?What do I do in that situation?So you just got to normalize for there.It is great to have them here and you got to speak directly to them at particular times.
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But you need to be careful that you don’t label them.So don’t label them if you’re not a Christian.No, change language if you’re exploring these things.So don’t use nouns, use verbs, don’t label them.Oh, you’re not a Christian, you’re an unbeliever.So when we’re talking about unbelief, talk about our friends.
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And if they’re in the room and you’re trying to engage them, use verbs.If you’re exploring the things of Jesus, if you’re skeptical about these things, if you have more questions about these things, that’s totally fine.It’s so great to have you here.You’re in the right place.So speak to them, speak and pray in an Invitational way.
57:12
So Liv’s already done that with the life example.You, you, you just want to be inviting them, showing this is a place where they’re welcome.And you need to avoid theological jargon or Christian acronyms.We have a rule, no acronyms at our church.
57:28
Because I always forget what we’re talking about.And if I’m forgetting and I’m the pastor, like, what is this thing we’re talking about?Like I forget that stuff.Like we often have it in our minutes, like I’ll go back, I’ve missed the staff meaning I’ll come back and I’ll read it and they’re acronym.
57:44
I don’t even know what we’re talking about And I run this joint right.So don’t use acronyms in your church.It just it creates very in and out crew.Don’t use theological jargon.I remember recently the prayer was God our Father.
58:00
We thank you for the substitutionary atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ.It was it was a beautiful prayer, but it’s just you don’t need to say that say God, we think that Jesus died for us and that he paid the penalty, you know, so no jargon more things you need to treat their worldview with respect even as you dismantle it.
58:23
So preachers in the room don’t do drive by backhanded comments about the secular worldview.And I hear this all the time from us.We say, oh, those rainbow people, those alphabet people, you know, they’re in the room like you want them coming to church.
58:40
And in that moment you’re dismissing them, you’re disrespecting them.Now we need to dismantle the, the secular world views on this.But you, you dismantle it while respecting the person.You need to be very careful about speaking about feminism or cat ladies or toxic masculinity or abortion.
59:01
They’re all very politically charged personal issues and as you speak about them, dismantle them of course, but respect the person.We have a rule of Vine Church, it’s called an 8 minute rule whereby I won’t talk about any of those topics unless I have 8 minutes to deal with it in the sermon.
59:24
And that’s because if I’m going to hit homosexuality in Surrey Hills, I need to do it thoughtfully, thoroughly, pastorally, wisely.I can’t just say, ah, we all know that dot, dot, dot.
59:40
And yet that’s often what our churches that we all know that.Well, you’re assuming what, who we are By doing that, you’re not respecting that people have different views and it’s our job to try and persuade.But by persuading, you’ve got to explain it and you got to explain it in a in a sensitive way to the person who’s probably going to have issues with it.
1:00:00
So we have an 8 minute rule.I don’t hit any of those topics unless I have 8 minutes or more in the sermon to cover it.More mission particularities.You want to help them navigate ambiguous or awkward moments, For example, during the Lord’s Supper.Are you very clear that it’s?
1:00:20
What they’re to do in that moment because they’re freaking out.Am I meant to go?And they’re going to feel pressured to go.So we just make it clear every time.Hey, we have lots of people at church trying to work out this God stuff for themselves.And if you’re in that position, it’s so great to have you.
1:00:37
We’re going to be doing the Lord’s Supper now, and there is no pressure whatsoever for you to participate in this.Just stay in your seats, listen to the words being sung, reflect on what you’ve heard today.But hey, if today, maybe even for the first time, you’ve made a decision, put your trust in Jesus.
1:00:55
You are more than welcome to come and make this your own, remembering that Jesus died for you.So make it incredibly clear what they’re to do, particularly during awkward moments.Make Question Time a priority and answer questions respectfully.
1:01:14
My experience is when non Christians come in and they hear us being open to being challenged, it it breaks down so many defeat beliefs and so many plausibility issues.They’re like, oh wow, this is not just a, a group of brainwashed people.
1:01:29
They’re we’re we’re able to ask questions.That’s huge.And then you need to answer the question respectfully.Again, don’t diss the question you’re trying to persuade them.So trying to understand it from their point of view and if you’re doing Slido like online questions, don’t manipulate the questions.
1:01:49
If people are up voting a question that is sensitive or has a little bit of heat in it, you have to answer the top voted question because people you lose trust.If it looks like you’re you’re unwilling to cover anything that the people are are asking, you’ll lose trust.
1:02:08
And so this was a Matt straw moment, wasn’t it?You’re like, let the people what was your lied?It’s a democratic moment.Yeah, they voted.So do that.That’s Question Time.Provide a clear, warm, Invitational next step for unbelievers.
1:02:27
We are particularly during our evangelistic series, we’ll say something.If you’ve never read the Bible for yourself as an adult, we’d we’d love to give you a Bible.It’s yours for free.It’s on the back table.Take it as you go out.We’ve got a bunch of free books there.They’re yours as well if you’re exploring these things.
1:02:43
So what’s the next step, particularly on your evangelistic Sundays?Or you can do this every Sunday.How are you helping them take a next step?And then the final one.We’ve already spoken about this, but connect to what they’re looking for, not what we’re offering.We’ve already mentioned that.
1:03:01
All right, next steps.We’ll just hit this briefly and feel free to get your phones out and take a photo of these questions, but we would encourage you if you’re sitting here thinking where do I even begin?The first thing we’d love to encourage you to do is schedule a weekly meeting with others to look back and review the service and to look forward and plan the coming Sunday and future weeks.
1:03:25
We do this every Tuesday.There’s a team of us that come together, we look back and we plan.And these are some of the question areas that we’re discussing.So questions to evaluate gospel and missional culture.Here are some of the things that we’re asking each other.
1:03:41
Did the service communicate gospel values and embody gospel culture?We might have a kind of a series of things for this, like why was our singing so half hearted and lackluster?You know, that destroys our gospel culture, so why is that?
1:03:57
Let’s address it.Would a Christian invite a friend to this and would a non Christian come again?There’s some of our kind of temperature points to ask about the service.Then we want to ask questions in terms of warmth and depth.So questions to evaluate depth.
1:04:13
Was it penetrating?Did the truth of God’s Word confront us with power, authority, and grip our hearts?Was it productive?Did the Word of God cut like a double edged sword, both cutting and healing, charming and changing?
1:04:30
Was it fresh?Was the gospel spoken with freshness and clarity?Was it predictable and sentimental?Was it appropriate?Was it appropriate in tone for the moment?Was it a moment of lament or celebration or conviction?
1:04:45
And did the element or the introduction or the service sit appropriately alongside that?And finally, was it magnifying Jesus?Did it humble us and magnify Jesus?So there’s some questions to evaluate the depth in your service, but also if you have a particular item or element that you want to evaluate, there’s a series of.
1:05:06
Questions can I engage on that number of years ago, we kept having the language of hey, we’re going to celebrate this, celebrate that and and Matt will remember this and I just said no more words.Celebrate right?And in large part it was that last one there.
1:05:21
I just felt like we kept celebrating people and that’s like, that’s not, we don’t celebrate people in church.Like we celebrate Jesus, we worship him.And so I just said to the team, guys, I think we just got to change the language from celebrate to think or honour.And and that way, yeah, I’m honoring you, but I’m not, I’m not celebrate and I’m not applauding you like you see.
1:05:42
So we welcome people up, we thank people and we put hands together for that, but I’m not applauding them for getting up and sharing.So just be careful of, you know, even just languages communicating something at that point, because I want Jesus to be the one where applauding, magnifying.
1:05:58
Yeah, on.Some questions to evaluate warmth was it relevant?Did it connect emotionally showing the gospel is for us and now?Did it use we language real life examples effective tone?Was it personal?Did it honor people’s presence, needs and experience?
1:06:17
Was it relational and aware of the people in the room?In our call to worship examples, Matt was aware that we had 40 children under 5 in the space and they’re very tired parents in the room, so it was warm.And in Jonty’s example, we have lovely Edmund who sits in the second room in his wheelchair.
1:06:34
He can’t stand.And so Jonty began by saying, if you’re able, let’s stand together.Was it authentic?Did it come across authentic and real?Or was it overly scripted, robotic, or performative?Was it engaging?
1:06:50
Did it encourage or invite a response?Warmth will invite engagement intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually.So there are some of the questions we can be asking of the service or of different items.The second thing we need to do in our meeting is to evaluate what problems need to be solved.
1:07:11
This review is not to pick on your Bible reader who lacked a bit of warmth in that moment.It’s to notice patterns across regular elements, or a noticeable lack of depth and warmth in a bigger item like an interview.It’s not to nitpick, it’s just to see patterns across your service.
1:07:28
The the principle there is to be solution focus rather than problem focus.Problem focus is Barber rating sucked again.Why do we keep having bad?But you know, that was so and you and you do this like autopsy on the problem and we call that problem focused and we don’t want to do that.
1:07:45
We just want to notice that that was a problem.Let’s shift very quickly to how we’re going to solve that in the future.And that just gets rid of the the the heat in the room.It’s just like we don’t even have to work out the scale of how bad that was.Let’s just say that wasn’t what we’re trying to get at.
1:08:03
Well, what are we going to do to change?And you need to spend your energy on the solution.How are we going to deal with this rather than spending all your time naming the problem?And sometimes we get sucked into these vortexes of negativity on the thing.
1:08:19
You got to get out of that and shift to the solution.And we need to be solution so much to do in ministry.Let’s keep solving problems.How do we get better, better, better, better, better rather than just, you know, that was bad For these reasons, that’s not helpful.
1:08:35
And so the second part of that is what are the areas where our people need training, feedback, encouragement or clear instruction?We had an example this week in our Tuesday mag meeting, which is that 915 in particular seems to have an issue with getting people into the building, which means that two weeks ago I did the call to worship with six people in the room.
1:08:56
And that is not warm.Let me tell you, it’s like drawing blood out of a stone.So that is becoming a regular issue just for a 915 congregation.So we identify the problem.It is not good for visitors who are there early and sitting there.They’re the six people in the room and no one else is there.
1:09:13
So what do we need to do?Well, we’ve worked with our membership team to get ushering a little earlier and we’ve changed the way our service starts.We’ve got a countdown timer, which we’ve had for a couple of years, and people are responding to that.But we’ve had a tech issue which means it’s not being piped out into the front.
1:09:29
And we’ve experimented with having 8 to 16 bars of a loud music from the band after the countdown timer and pulling back for the service leader to then come up and welcome and give the call to worship.So that was a real time example this week.And I think you just want to just try solving stuff like so you could spend 1/2 an hour trying to workout.
1:09:47
Why aren’t people getting here on time?You you don’t end up in a better place because you just spent, whereas you should just start trying stuff this that OK, that didn’t work.Let’s do this.And and I think you yeah, be solution focused there and be open to doing different stuff.
1:10:03
Yeah.And then finally, we want to be planning for this Sunday and potentially for future weeks.What are the elements and how are we going to make them deep and warm?It might be that you focus particularly on kind of a major elements.So if you’ve got an interview coming up, what do you need to make this deep and warm?
1:10:21
Often it’ll be you need to prepare both the interviewer and the interviewee so that they have enough time to work on depth and warmth together, to make sure they know their material, that they feel prepared, confident and comfortable up the front.And that needs to be planned well in advance, both to honor the interviewee, to make sure that you know they’re feeling well cared for, but to help the interviewer as well.
1:10:45
So there’s some hopefully actionable points for you as you think about how to move.Forward we’ve been pretty prescriptive in this even the questions that we had on the previous like we don’t go through each one of them every week that we we just tried to work out what is our how are we assessing?
1:11:03
And for us, it’s intuitive now because we’ve spoken so much about it, but we’re like, what are we intuiting so that you understand what’s what we think, but we don’t have those questions at every all we have in our mag meeting.We’re just like looking back things to give thanks for.
1:11:18
So you always want to start the meeting with, you know, and then problems to solve and then looking ahead.So we just have three things every mag meeting.Look, things to give thanks for last week, celebrate what God’s done, problems to solve and then looking ahead.
1:11:34
Yeah, it’s time for questions.We’ve got about 10 minutes and I think a mic is going to roam around.Is Joe still in the house?Yeah, just at the backs.We’ve got a hand up.In your weekly mag meeting, who are all in the mag meeting and how long is your meeting?
1:12:00
Depending what mood of it is, how long it is.I love our weekly mag meeting.It’s my favorite meeting of the week because I have well, it’s grown and so we have live as who are both on staff now.So it’s quite well resourced.
1:12:17
And then we have some interns there as well to interns.So it’s it’s been amazing year.Last year it was just live and I, and for the last five years we’ve had a music director and so music director or service director or a magnification director, and it’s just me and them.
1:12:33
But you don’t need someone on staff to do it.You just need to find a team of people at Church 1.You only need one other.Or if you don’t have them, do it yourself.But you’ve got to be what, what, what was good, you know, And so.Yeah.
1:12:50
And as a as a general guideline, we try and aim for an hour.Yeah, yeah.Hi.So I loved the the Bible reading and the prayer introductions that you had the videos of.That’s something we’re trying to do at church.
1:13:06
I guess my question is how, how do you guide your teams to start doing that well?And then how would you provide feedback if it’s not going well?Because that’s a struggle for us.Well, from our experience over the past few years, we often gave people encouragement to do it if it was appropriate.
1:13:30
So say we were praying for Vine Kids and Youth, we would often roster someone on to pray who was a leader at Vine Youth and Kids and we would have a conversation with them, which is we’re so grateful that you serve three weeks out of four or whatever.
1:13:47
Thank you for praying this week.Hey, it’d be great if you could just share with us what you love about leading at Vine Kids and then and then lead us in prayer.And I think when we saw that happening more, I guess other people started catching on that.That’s a nice thing to hear from our congregation members.
1:14:05
And at that point, I started giving encouragements as feedback.So I would say to Peter, Peter, I loved what you said before you prayed for us this morning.Thank you.And that meant that it just kind of got built in.We have had some moments where the introductions have been just so long.
1:14:23
Yeah.And and to be honest, I haven’t done anything with them because it hasn’t happened enough for it to for it to become an issue.But I guess I’d have to think about what to.Do that’s why I see like it happens once, let it go.If it becomes a pattern, that’s when you got to jump on it.
1:14:41
You also front load it.So you’ll you have your WhatsApp group of all your Bible readers and then and you will just send out regular reminders there.You’ll put into the run sheet the lines that you want them to say and like that kind of gets them.
1:14:58
I mean, that’s the plumbing stuff.You know, what did, what’s his name say Phil, Phil Phil said, I’d much prefer the poet than the plumber, but if you’ve got neither a plumber or a poet, just tell him how to lay up some pot, right.So, and that’s what you’re doing.
1:15:13
You’d use very specific and.And over time that will help them.Yeah.I kind of want to know a similar thing with service leaders.So who leads your services and how do you how do you train them and give them a we’ve got very kind of fuzzy service leading but keen to change it.
1:15:30
How do you begin?We have all staff leading and some kind of hand picked lay people, people we think are godly, mature and you know, able to lead from the front for training.
1:15:48
We have a annual compulsory training and if they aren’t around or kind of join later in the year, we have that recorded.So we asked them to watch that and then we have a kind of month long initiation process where the first week they lead with a member of staff in Co leading and they get feedback straight away and then they lead often the next week so that they have another crack at it having had some feedback that often can’t happen.
1:16:18
But on the whole that’s what we try and do.And then they’ll come back and either lead with someone else or or by themselves, depending on how we felt.They they went on the warmth and depth piece if they were better paired with someone or better by themselves.So yeah.The area I’ve seen the most fruit is number of years ago, I just wrote down a mega document.
1:16:38
You see my mega meeting leading document, which like was so prescriptive on every point and then but we just kept making mistakes all over the place.And particularly more college students would get up and we’re very like, we value warmth a lot, but they’d come from more college Chapel and they’d just like do something very formal and stiff.
1:16:59
And I’m like, why is this still happening?And it wasn’t until we stumbled on go, you know, what are we?Warmth, depth.And by saying I want more warmth, I’m not saying I want less depth.I want both.And so as soon as we inculcated those two values, bang, we’ve seen such an improvement in what’s happening upfront because they can get it.
1:17:21
They’re like, no, I’m not asking you to water it down.I’m just ask make it more accessible and relational.Yeah.So that’s been helpful is here we go.Yeah.What do you think of some of the main things that lead pastors typically get wrong Kind of be leading in this area?
1:17:40
I could say yeah.Tell me everything I’m doing wrong, Liv.Liv is very insightful.She is very, very gifted in this space so.I think the piece that I am most looking for as a staff member, but really as a congregation member is if in the service, my lead pastor is absent at the back, finishing a sermon, scribbling at the front on his phone, fixing things, not engaged, talking out in the foyer with a coffee in his hand while we’re singing.
1:18:20
I’m like, oh, that is saying something to our congregation that I don’t think they want to be saying and I don’t want to be saying.So my encouragement to lead pastors would be.Model the response.Yeah, go on and enjoy Jesus, enjoy being with his people.
1:18:40
And you set the tone, You set the expectation for your congregation, which is that if you are singing in a lackluster, disengaged eyes on your screen or on your sermon notes, you can’t expect your congregation to rise above that.
1:18:58
And you’ve just set the tone, You’ve set the limit for what you expect of your people.So I think Phil was talking about it earlier.Lead by example in that area.And I think you will inject a whole lot of warmth and depth just by genuine engagement in the service.
1:19:14
I think one of the other ones is I think I lead worst when I’m scrutinizing the little things.And I think I lead you guys best when I’m laying principles for why I’m reacting to the little things.And so I need to spend.If you’re a lead, you need to spend your time on values like this is what we value in this moment, rather than going, oh, that person did this.
1:19:38
And I think when I go micro, it can be quite discouraging for them.And I just need to step back and going, why is this happening?What’s the value that they’re not owning?And I need to go louder on that value because as soon as they get that, then they know how to change.Yeah, I just wanted to ask about warmth.
1:19:59
Developing warmth is about part of it’s.Reading the room and having good EQ.I don’t know if you’ve got thoughts about developing EQ in service leaders and what the place of humor is.That’s kind of a Part B.Well, we think it’s much easier to make a warm person deep than it is to make a deep person warm.
1:20:25
However, Peter is a very deep guy and that was incredibly warm what he said.And so then so it’s prompting them.Here’s what we want you to, we want you to share something of yourself and something of how the gospels touched you.
1:20:43
And he’s so bright.He can do it, you know, And so he does it and, and it’s delivered.It’s not delivered with the, you know, it’s not, it’s not up here charisma, but it’s still it’s so authentic, so real, so sincere that the delivery doesn’t really matter.
1:21:01
It’s like that was such a warm moment for us.I think we when we sit next to each other, when that happened and we were like, oh, messaging each other and go wow.Yeah.I think the other piece to that is even if we have huge EQ as service leaders, if we’re not prepared, well, we’re going to be sitting in the front row, everyone else is singing and all we’re thinking about is what’s coming after this.
1:21:25
Am I ready?And you walk up and you.Absolutely forget to read the room or you’re too busy thinking about the next thing.So I think preparation is key.And even for someone who has low EQ, encouraging them to prepare and to spend time outside of the service reading through the songs, letting them, letting the lyrics minister to them first and thinking how’s the song made me felt?
1:21:48
How’s it made me feel?And then thinking, what’s a good bridge into this next element?Getting them to the loads of homework before they they go and lead it on a Sunday.Yeah, hello, all this warmth and depth takes time and I am interested to hear any thoughts on managing the length of your service whilst still allowing space for people to be human.
1:22:18
I don’t know if it necessarily needs to add time, I think.How long?Is your service?That’s plenty of time.Yeah, and I preach long.Yeah, like the depth piece for a Bible reading, for example, is we’re gonna hear God speak to us through his word.
1:22:40
My name’s Liv.Scrabble.Bibles love to read.For us, You know, it’s just a short introduction.You’ve done so much in communicating values in that moment, and when that becomes part of your heartbeat and your culture, then I don’t think it’s adding time to the service.
1:22:57
Some, some people though, who are incredibly warm will just go on and on and on and on.And so it’s, that’s not this, it’s not an issue with this.It’s they just need to be more succinct.Their job is not to narrate the whole week, you know?So yeah, I think there are moments when they just need to tighten up to three sentences is all we’re asking for.
1:23:20
And not 2 pages, yeah.Maybe one more question and then Dominic.Hey Toby, how have you thought about platform dress code and, and I’m interested not just in your legislative answer, but also your warmth and depth answer.
1:23:35
And do you have thongs like in Newcastle?Toby has a full kind of Notion page on our dress code, so yeah, we we do have one.Yeah, our, we, our dress code is dressed like you’re an architect in Surry Hills.
1:23:51
It’s true, because we’re not corporate.We’re not dressing like a lawyer or a banker.That’s too stiff.But we’re not dressing like a a builder or a surf bomb.On the Central Coast, architects are professionals, but they’re relaxed professionals.
1:24:10
And so that’s what I say to our crew.I want you to dress like a relaxed professional.Yeah, Yes, I can.So just e-mail me at so.And if you want this, e-mail me at [email protected] dot AU and I’ll send you the PowerPoint as well.
1:24:27
It was just one more question down here, which we promised he would.Yeah.Just on the corner.Do you still want?Yeah.Forgotten your name?Sorry.Lucas.Lucas, I’ve already answered this one, but I was just going to say, if I’ve got a music team member who’s a bit more dull or shy in personality, how do you encourage them to be warm without being inauthentic?
1:24:46
And what’s, what’s the fine line between that?Because it is not inauthentic to to rise to the platform that you’re standing it like I am.I’m very shy, like I have high social anxiety.I struggle at Reach Australia conference, but what is loving to the people I’m communicating to is to bring the energy up front.
1:25:09
I don’t want to do it, but it’s not inauthentic because I’m trying to love people.So I need to come out of my shell.I’d much prefer to be hiding in a corner at some point right now.I’d much prefer that.But I’m like, what do you need to hear right now?And do you need someone that cares about this?
1:25:24
So I need to push myself out.So it is not inauthentic to ask a shy, introverted person to rise and to project.And when I do preaching training for our student ministers, I get them up.And if they’re a shy, quiet person, I will.
1:25:40
I’ll say, OK, what level do you level intensity?Do you feel like you’re projecting right now?And also I feel like I’m projecting A7 out of 10 and I’ll be like, I feel like you’re projecting a three out of 10.Can you shout this?Give me a 10 out of 10.
1:25:56
So this is one of the little training tools we use and I’ll go 10 out of 10 intensity and for me it’ll only be a six out of 10.I’m like, mate, that’s still quite low intensity.Really give it this time.And I think people who are shy like that, they don’t know what their range is.
1:26:15
And so you have have to help them calibrate like what is super intense and help them feel now you can keep going and you are not overbearing right now at all.Keep going, keep going.Now that’s fine.You can do that.That’s actually, that’s just normal actually when you’re on stage.
1:26:32
So, so people who are introverted like that, they don’t have that calibration.They, they have this very narrow band down here.And then similarly, some people are just 7 to 10’s and they don’t know how to go to a 2 out of 10, you know, go, dude, take a breath, slow down, use a gentle voice, you know, And so training people with that, it’s quite helpful.
1:26:54
Yeah, I think we’re done.Shall I lead us in prayer?Yeah, let’s pray.Father God, we love the Lord Jesus and we want our church services to be places where the Spirit of God would put the spotlight on the Lord Jesus and that we would know him, love him, trust him, adore him, and that he might come to us.
1:27:17
Thank you for that reminder.Liv’s given us that church is before it’s us doing anything.You are drawing near to us in the person of your son by his word to lead and guide and shepherd and comfort and rebuke and challenge and equip us for the for the life of God.
1:27:35
We we pray that we’d be able to bring change to our churches so that our services are incredibly compelling for the outsider.But but that would be the case because all the Christians are just loving the Lord Jesus that there’s a there’s a there’d be an experience of his grace towards us.
1:27:56
Help us to do this better to to die to ourselves and to and to do what needs to be done.We ask this in Jesus name, Amen.Wasn’t that a great workshop?I hope that that’s really inspired you certainly inspired me as a service leader and to work a little bit harder at making sure that the service is indeed warm and deep.
1:28:20
The notes are in the show notes there again, if you want to watch the video, it’s available on YouTube and Spotify.I’m Pete Hughes, chat soon.
