Lots of churches want to know what resources are out there to share the life-changing good news of Jesus. We’ve interviewed people who created or are using each tool.
Simply Christianity, a trusted course since 1998, remains highly effective in guiding people to explore the Gospel of Luke for themselves, letting the gospel’s message do the work.
John Dickson now works as an author, speaker, historian, minister and media presenter. He strives to be a public advocate for the Christian faith in doubting times, and is highly regarded for his ability to tackle complex ideas in a straightforward and accessible way.
The Best Kept Secret of Christian Mission
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TRANSCRIPT:
The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.
0:02
Oh, gosh, over the years, I’ve, you know, had loads of people like in churches tell me how easy it is to run the course because you, because you let Luke’s gospel do the talking.And so the script is there.It’s not like the leader of the group has to do much other than say, hey, let’s turn to this passage.
0:21
What did you think of that passage?What do you think Jesus is getting at here?Does this make you feel uncomfortable?So it’s just super easy.I think I’ve loved that.I’d love to hear that.It’s super easy because I don’t think, you know, I never wanted this, the course version to be the sort of thing if, you know, only the minister could run.
0:41
That was John Dixon.John is the host of the Undeceptions podcast and the author of Simply Christianity, among a whole range of different things.I’m Pete Hughes and you’ve clicked on the Reach Australia podcast, and in this season we’re looking at different evangelistic tools to fill your missional toolbox with as many resources as possible.
1:01
Simply Christianity is one of those courses that it’s been around for a while and it’s easy to forget about, but it is a great course and it is worth looking at.I spoke with John about Simply Christianity, but also about a new project coming up for the first time.And so make sure you stick around to the end.
1:17
To hear about that.I know it sounds like click bait, but trust me, it’s worth it.We pick up the conversation as John talks about where simply Christianity came from.Look, it came out of my ministry, both the ministry I had at a local church as an evangelist and the ministry I had as the evangelist for the North Shore of the Anglican Church.
1:43
So I I I was the evangelist for 65 churches as well as half time evangelist for one church.It was great.And yes, so practically I wanted something that really I felt was engaging people with the gospel in a clear way.
2:00
And I had used, you know, the ones that were already available and just felt like I really wanted people to engage more with the person of Jesus Christ.And so there was already a course based on Mark’s gospel.
2:18
So I thought, OK, well, let’s, let’s try Luke’s gospel.I, I had particular reasons for Luke’s gospel, but, you know, I wanted to have a different gospel from the other course that was out there, but one that really stuck closely to Jesus.He’s the best thing we’ve got going for us.
2:33
And I thought, you know, a course for doubters that looks closely at Jesus through Luke’s gospel would be hugely beneficial.And I just ran it as the course I ran in my church without any grand ideas of publishing.
2:49
But it ended up being, you know, successful and widely used, and that that course ended up becoming the book simply Christianity.So that’s the origin story.
3:06
So actually I want to go because I, I wanted to ask you about why Luke, because a lot of courses and a lot of books have centred around Mark.It’s, it’s the smaller book.I think it’s probably easier for people to get into.Why did you choose Luke?Yeah, I mean, Luke is actually the longest of the Gospels.
3:24
I know it only has 24 chapters, but it’s actually got more words in it than than even Matthew does.So you might think that’s not very good, but actually if you’re doing a course over 5 or 6 weeks, it’s super easy to read Luke’s Gospel.You know, it doesn’t need to be as brief as Mark’s gospel.
3:42
But if I’m to give you a like a more considered sort of theological or theoretical reason for Luke.Yeah, that’s what I’m after, yeah.Yeah.What I was interested in was the way Luke gathers more of the stories of Jesus meeting the sinners and tax collectors.
4:02
So it’s a theme you find in all of the gospels, but it’s dominant in Luke’s gospel.There are way more stories in Luke’s gospel about Jesus meeting the unreligious, the irreligious, the immoral.And for a course designed for people who don’t believe, I just felt that was really cool, that they could see themselves, maybe the here’s Jesus interacting with people like me, people who don’t believe, people who are a long way away.
4:30
And is that I?Think that’s right, Luke?Luke allows you to see yourself in the story.Sure.I was going to say, do you think that’s what makes simply Christianity a little bit different to everything else?Is that that approach that Luke has of Jesus meets everybody?I.Think there are two things that that’s an important one, the friend of sinners theme, you know, that expression actually comes from Luke’s Gospel Chapter 7.
4:56
But the theme, yes, that theme is dominant and intriguing to, to sceptics today.But I think the other sort of distinctive of the course is the simply Christianity, the book and the course.
5:12
I mean, there are two different things we’re talking about here.But how should I put this?They keep you very close to the words of Luke’s gospel.So there are other courses, really good courses, gospel wise.They’re they’re fantastic.
5:28
They’re, you know, much more successful than my 1:00, but they take you, they bounce you around different parts.It’s almost like you can’t trust Mark to tell you the gospel.So you’ve got to jump into Romans, you know, to, to get to get the point that Jesus didn’t quite give you in Mark.
5:46
And I think that doesn’t, that doesn’t work for me.I want us to stay really close to Luke’s Gospel and let the gospel tell the gospel.And, and I’d already come across the fact that the ancient church used the Gospels as their evangelistic documents from very early on.
6:05
We have really cool evidence from Eusebius that said evangelists went around preaching the gospel to those who didn’t yet know it and delivering to them the four divine gospels, right?So they were used evangelistically from the big very beginning.And I think simple Christianity stays pretty close to the gospel.
6:22
Let’s Jesus do the talking, as it were.Jesus and Luke.What?What do you think?I guess some of the key aspects of Jesus life and message that people still need to hear today that really come out from simply Christianity.Boy, so many.
6:39
So I have found, evangelistically speaking, that all that teaching stuff from Jesus in Luke 6, which you also get in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew about love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who mistreat you, right?All that stuff is so utterly compelling to people who are skeptical as in they hear that and they go, man, that’s full on, but it’s also beautiful.
7:02
So Jesus had this, this incredible insistence on the love of enemy that that is simultaneously compelling and guilt inducing.So you know, you can present Jesus’s teacher to people so that they they they see him as like the ultimate ethic.
7:24
You know, this is the person who gave us human equality and compassion and so on.And yet the way he phrases it makes me feel so guilty.I could never do this.Which is an awesome set up for the, you know, the justification through faith that we that we want to teach and that Luke’s gospel clearly teaches in a number of places.
7:46
I think the parable of the prodigal son, which we make good use of in simple Christianity, is the perfect picture of the Sinner because what does the son do?And we make this point over and over in the, in the course and the book that the son wants everything the father has to offer and nothing to do with the father.
8:06
That’s the sin.So this is Jesus trying to come up with a picture of what a Sinner is.And so if you put aside, you know, sin is drinking too much, swearing, whatever, put that aside with, with a, with an Aussie or, you know, an American, indeed, you can actually say, look, do you love the gifts more than the giver?
8:25
Do you want all the good things the father has given in creation and nothing to do with the father?Well, then you’re a Sinner.You might in fact be a moral person.But if you’re wanting the gifts and not the giver, just like this prodigal son, then you need to come home because you’re a Sinner.
8:42
So Luke’s gospel gives a really strong definition of sin.But also right there in that Luke 15 is the picture of repentance, of turning around, coming back, looking to the Father for the mercy that you don’t deserve.And what do you know, forgiveness of sins is right there.
9:00
So you’ve got in Luke 15 the very punchline of the whole of Luke’s gospel, because when Jesus sends the disciples out at the very end in Luke 24, he says that, you know, the death and resurrection of the Messiah will be was foretold in the Scriptures and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins must be preached in his name to all nations.
9:20
Repentance for the forgiveness of sins, boom, that’s Luke 15.So I think, you know, this idea of what is sin has a massive resonance in our contemporary setting.So simply Christianity, it’s both a book and a course.
9:37
Is is it better for it to be done in a a group, do you think?Or 1:00 to 1:00?What would be your ideal I?Don’t think it matters.I mean, you could just hand people the book simply Christianity and say go away and, you know, learn that and you can be pretty confident they will know the gospel by which they can be saved by the end of it.
9:55
But I think it’s preferable always to do this sort of thing in relationship and that it works, you know, 1:00 to 1:00 because you can say to people, you know, if they, if you hand them the book, they get Luke’s gospel in the book.That’s the other thing.So, you know, after an introduction from me, you get the first six chapters of Luke just actually right there as part of the text of the book.
10:16
And then you get my chapters explaining those six chapters.Then you get the next few chapters and so on.And you can just meet, meet up with with the person 1 to 1 and say, oh, what do you think of, you know, that chapter?And then you know, it obviously grew out of group setting.
10:35
So I know that group setting also works.I think group settings, they have that opportunity where someone gets to raise a question that someone else hasn’t thought of yet and go, Oh yeah, no, I want that question answered as well.So and there’s that sense of community that is there.
10:50
But, but you’re right, yeah, 1 to 1 can be such a powerful thing as well in terms of evangelism.Are they?Do you think there are specific challenges that people may face as they, if someone was going to go, I want to work through this, what’s what’s some of the obstacles that they may face leading into running and running something like simply Christianity?
11:13
I think people are made uncomfortable somewhat with actually confronting Jesus Christ himself.You know, there’s a, there’s a sense in which if you have a gospel that’s sort of more theoretical, you know, let’s just talk about existence of God or let’s just talk about how we don’t live up to our own standards, let alone the Almighties.
11:36
Let’s talk about how we might, you know, reconcile our failings without longing to be, you know, to be with God.Like if you keep it at the abstract, there’s a sense in which that’s at one level easier for people to cope with.But looking at the actual life, words, deeds, death and resurrection of the person, Jesus is very, very confronting to people.
12:00
And that I mean, and in a sense, who cares?I mean the, that’s the gospel, right?So I want people to know Jesus.I want people at the end of simple Christianity to go, I really like Jesus.I love him, I trust him, he he’s in charge and he died for me and I know what he thinks because I’ve seen him preach and I’ve seen him in conversation with a Sinner and I can trust that person.
12:24
So the the the challenge or difficulty of this is precisely it’s best quality that you are face to face with the person of Jesus Christ, not a theoretical doctrinal gospel only.
12:44
Let me just step outside of the script, so to speak, just for a second.I want to ask, I want to press into that a little bit in terms of, do you think it’s easier to, to talk to people about church because you’ve written, you know, bullies and Saints, and so you’ve thought about church and how people perceive the reputation of church.
13:02
Is it easier to talk about church or is it easier to talk about Jesus?And and and from that, you know, is it easier to invite someone to church or is it easier to sort of say, Hey, can you do you want to sit down and read this book?I want to say yes, Pete, because it really does depend on the kind of person that you’re that you’re interacting with.
13:21
I do find though, that a lot of conversations begin with the problems of the church, with the evils of the church, because we are so on the nose and it’s not all our fault.I mean, some of it’s our fault.We’ve done pretty terrible things and cover ups and all that sort of stuff.
13:39
But it’s also just there’s just, you know, this cool mood at the moment of knocking the church.So a lot of conversations will start there.And I think that’s fine.I’ll just roll with that.But actually, this gets you to Jesus pretty quickly, because as soon as someone starts bagging out the church, my first instinct is to say, yeah, you’re probably right.
13:57
In fact, it’s probably worse than you think.But what do you think Jesus would have thought of that?I mean, Jesus all the way through his life is criticizing religious hypocrites.And here you are criticizing religious hypocrites.But I mean, Jesus said exactly the same thing before you said it.Maybe you should have a look at at Jesus because in the end, it’s it’s the beauty of Jesus himself that makes Christians look so bad.
14:22
Because when people are criticizing the church, they’re doing it because they know what Jesus taught.They have this hunch that Jesus talked about equality and love and forgiveness, and here you are, jerks mistreating people.And so there’s a very easy Segway from church misbehaviour to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
14:44
Thank you.That that’s helpful.Actually just for me personally, I’m sure it’s helpful for everyone.I know that.Yeah, I often start with asking people about their experience of church, just to get an idea of where they are spiritually and then move to Jesus.But that it’s.Super important.That question of what do you think Jesus would think is such a great segue into now let’s come back to simply Christianity.
15:04
Tell us about some of the feedback that you’ve had from the course, the book.What have people said to you about it?Oh gosh, over the years I’ve, you know, had loads of people like in churches tell me how easy it is to run the course because you, because you let Luke’s gospel do the talking.
15:22
And so the script is there.It’s not like the leader of the group has to do much other than say, hey, let’s turn to this passage.What did you think of that passage?What do you think Jesus is getting at here?Does this make you feel uncomfortable?So it’s just super easy.I think I’ve loved that.
15:38
I’d love to hear that.It’s super easy because I don’t think, you know, I never wanted this, the course version to be the sort of thing you’ve, you know, only the minister could run.And certainly in my own church, when I was running this, I, I, as quickly as I could, got good lay leaders in the groups so they could watch me run it a couple of times.
15:58
And then they were on their own and they had, I’m thinking of one in particular, they had great success in his first time ever running it himself after sitting in the course with me twice.This guy called Tim then LED it himself.And he led people to Christ in that course, you know, and, and he would say he’d never actually LED someone to Christ before that.
16:20
You know, he was sort of really evangelistically zealous as a, as a person really good with people who aren’t Christians.But here was a just an environment where he let Luke’s gospel do the talking and people became Christians.Great story.That’s a great story of, yeah, someone who’s you pass the baton on to somebody else, so to speak.
16:39
Yeah.Have you got a a story of seeing someone actually receive cross themselves?Like have you?Have you?Give us a story about that.Give us give us one of the most encouraging ones.Yeah, I mean, in this case it it, it’d be hard to I shouldn’t name names is is what I’m saying.
16:54
Sure, in case they’re listening and go, oh, I’m not sure I gave you permission to that.But yeah, a bunch of people.I’m thinking of one couple, pretty, you know, good looking wealthy couple, nearly married, came to the course because, you know, they wanted to get married in the church and thought, well, I’ll do this.
17:17
Simple Christianity had really good questions all the way along.And and and, and you could just see them pivot from being nice, polite Sydney young couple to hang on.
17:34
This is actually really important.And by the end of the course, they both were thinking Jesus was fantastic.And you know, they they were married, they both became Christians and he went into ministry.
17:51
He’s wow ministry.That’s fantastic.That’s an amazing story.That’s great.It’s gorgeous.If if you were going to rewrite simply Christianity, would you add another chapter, or is there something you would change if you were going to do another edition?Yeah.It’s pretty hard because you can’t change the Gospel of Luke.
18:10
No, but I mean, I’ve been saying let Luke do the talking.Yeah, I think I’d do a little more of that.I I would.In fact, you know what?I, I just reached out to Matthias Media a couple of weeks ago to say, Hey, do you want to, do you have any interest in updating Simply Christianity?
18:31
And they said, what do you got in mind?And I, I listed a few things and most of it was around tying it even closer to Luke’s gospel, actually drawing out more of Jesus teaching.So more of the stuff that I just mentioned that, you know, the, the love stuff, love of enemy and all that sort of stuff is so it so speaks to that kind of progressive secular mind because it simultaneously is the best version of that secular progressive love.
18:58
But it also is, is phrased in a way that makes us all guilty.We don’t even, we don’t live up to this.So I’d, I’d want to drill down more on that.But you know, the other thing is I, I want to end the, the book and the course actually by going back to the Lord’s Prayer instead of the sinner’s prayer.
19:22
So I invented a sinner’s prayer at the end of the course and at the end of the book.That’s you know, dear Lord, I’m sorry for not following your ways, but they’re like but I’ve since then thought, no, hang on.Jesus already gave us a prayer and when you think about it, it’s the best sinner’s prayer.
19:39
You know, our Father in heaven like you’re you’re daring to call him Father now hallowed be your name.You know, I I want you.I want you to be Lord right, You know, give us today Our Daily Bread.It’s like dependence, but then forgive us our sins, right?
19:58
So it’s, it’s actually asking for repentance and then lead us on to temptation.OK, It’s, it’s like discipleship.So I’m, I wanna, I wanna be all in.I want you to lead me, right.So the beauty of that is not only that it’s a great prayer.
20:13
Of course it it leaves the person at the end of the course or the end of the book thinking I’m becoming a Christian the Jesus way.I don’t, I don’t have to rely on this cool prayer that John Dixon invented.I’m going, I’m, I’m doing what Jesus said to do.
20:30
He taught this prayer and here I am using it to become a Christian.I, I’d, I’d really want to drill down on that.OK, well, Matthias Media, you’ve heard it.Let’s see if we get another edition.We’ll see how we go.Now I just want to the last couple of questions I want to ask you is just to step away from simply Christianity, just to ask some of the other things, because you’ve done a lot of different things.
20:49
You’ve done books, you’ve done documentaries, you’ve done podcasts, you’ve lectured it in a number of different places in terms of presentations, in terms of stuff that you’ve done.Is there one that you think?You know what?I’m really glad I did that one.I mean, I’ve done lots of things, but I’m so glad that that one happened.
21:09
Am I only allowed one?I’ll give you 2.I’ll give you 3.How’s that?I’m being generous.I often feel that my little book promoting the gospel, although it has another name.Oh.Best kept secret of Christian mission, right?
21:27
Yeah.I’m not sure I like that title.But anyway, promoting the Gospel, Best kept secret.I, you know, sometimes I think that might have been the best thing I’ve written or, or maybe the most important thing I’ve written.It’s an account of all the things the Bible says that we can do to reach out to people.
21:46
So I’m, yeah, I’m really happy with that.And if I’m honest, I think the For the Love of God documentary I did with the Centre for Public Christianity was pretty special.I mean, it was giant, you know, all around the world, 30 different scholars involved, you know, it, it, it was hard to make, but I was really, really happy with what what we as a team came up with.
22:14
So there, I mean, you know, there’s two.Thanks.Sure.OK.And you’re, you’re currently hosting UN deceptions, which huge podcast.And a huge part of my life, yeah.It is, yeah.OK.Who is that really designed for?Because you cover all sorts of different things, including one of my favourites.
22:31
I was a big fan of the venerable bead episode because I know that some people on your team, what’s OK, but what?Who?Who do you have in mind?Who are who’s listening to this when you make it?The thoughtful person who’s not a believer.
22:47
OK, right.So the underceptions, the whole thing about underceptions is that it’s the podcast a Christian could pass on to their friend who doesn’t believe without embarrassment.And and we want to tackle every issue someone might think about as a way of undeceiving, revealing the truth about Christianity.
23:08
So even on a topic that looks like a nerdy, you know, medieval history podcast, the one on venerable bead like you just mentioned, there’s so much in there for the skeptical person who who reckons.So the particular point we made in Venerable Bead is, you know, apart from it, it’s just a really interesting story you’ve never heard of if if you’re not, if you’re not aware of the church, you hear about this incredible mind in the so-called Dark ages.
23:35
Exactly.That’s right, we make.The point that that I think is beneficial to the skeptic that there wasn’t really a dark ages.If you’ve got a if you’ve got a light like the venerable bead, able to study and write the way he did, you can’t really speak about a dark ages.And here is a devout Christian who has written the most important document for the history of early England that we still use today.
24:01
So I want someone to come away from that podcast not just entertained and informed about the history, but to think I need to maybe rewrite how I think about that so-called era of Christian dark ages.But we want to then come at science or philosophy or politics or you know, so we are just, we’re just trying to walk through how Christianity has something to say, something meaningful to say on every topic you could possibly imagine.
24:35
Yeah, coming out of that, you’ve got, as we’re recording, you’ve got a new project that’s in the pipeline called The First Hymn.It’s documentary.Tell us about that.We are resurrecting the oldest Christian song, complete with music and lyrics.
24:53
So it’s a piece of papyrus found in ancient Egypt.It’s dated to the two hundreds AD.This is a period where Christians are still being clobbered by the Romans.And yet they wrote this beautiful hymn in praise of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the only giver of all good gifts.
25:10
They’re the key lines.So it’s trinitarian, predates the Council of Nicaea and Emperor Constantine by a couple of generations.So it’s significant that it’s Trinitarian and it’s super confident, even though these Christians are being punished by the Romans.
25:26
So we’ve produced a documentary that is part history documentary, All the nerdiness about the discovery.But then we’ve got Chris Tomlin and Ben Fielding, two top songwriters, to rework the song and produce a modern praise song, which we track in the documentary.
25:43
From their songwriting sessions through the studio recording to the final scene where they perform it to 10,000 people in Texas.Just a couple of months ago we filmed that with 12 cameras and it is just gorgeous.So the Chris Tomlin song comes out the week of Easter and so does our documentary all about this song.
26:07
So basically we’re giving back to the world, a song that hasn’t been sung by the church for 1800 years.Are you hoping that that’ll be sung by churches around the world?Yeah.Come here.Yeah.I mean.As soon as you hear it, Pete, you’ll go, Oh my goodness, we’ve got to sing this next week in church.
26:22
Tomlin has written.Tomlin and Fielding have written a an incredible melody that honours the ancient melody and incorporates all of the ancient words in English translation, obviously.
26:38
But it’s one of those classic anthemic Christian praise songs.It’s very exciting.I’m very excited about it.I, I, I feel like there needs to be more anthemic kind of songs in our churches.So I, I’m looking forward to this.I think it’d be great.John, thank you so much for your time.
26:54
Thank you for simply Christianity and deceptions, all the other things that you give the Christian world.And thank you so much for joining us today.Absolute pleasure, Always glad to talk to someone from Australia mate.That was John Dixon.
27:11
Make sure you.Keep an eye out for the first hymn.It does come out soon.It’ll be a great, great asset, I’m sure to Christian mission under the Young Deceptions podcast.The best kept secret of Christian mission are also there in the show notes, as is simply Christianity.
27:28
Now simply Christianity may be something you need to revisit or discover for the first time.But whatever you do, do something.I’m Pete Hughes, chat soon.
